What is Digg?105 Comments
- SuperQuack, on 10/12/2007, -5/+24Another vague response by blizzard that doesn't really help explain anything.
- drshabazz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19I agree. I used to play this game, and spent countless of hours on it. Heck, look my icon is still a night elf.
After being free from the bondage that is being addicted to such a stupid repetative game I've found myself:
A) Reading books
B) Excelling at work
C) Excelling in school
D) Now in a great relationship
E) With a lot more personal wealth
F) Overall hapiness... that is to say I actually NOW HAVE A LIFE.
It's incredible - a life! Who'dve thunk it?! - EiderDuck, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18I think it's pretty obvious what's legit and what's not. If your character is doing something that normally requires keyboard interaction but you're not there to answer a page from the GM, you're botting.
- KadunkaDunk, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20I'll probably get flamed for this, butt...
Does anyone else think Blizzard was doing this guy a favor? I mean in his message he stated he had played the game for over 3000 hours, the equivalent of over 4 straight months. IMO they did him a favor by forcing him to 'unplug' for a little while...
Even dismissing that, if this game has become so repetitive that it becomes a chore to play it, then why would one still play it!? - black|math, on 10/12/2007, -9/+16Maybe if the game was more engaging you wouldn't have to program controls to do all the work for you. But instead you stuck spending hours upon hours doing redundant tasks just to have a moment of excitement.
- mcbean, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6The difference is that when you're using a keyboard macro you're still actively participating in the game. Advanced macro programs like Macroquest (an example in the case of Everquest) can automate the entire game, and that's the type of 'hacking' that game companies frown upon.
- thewise1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8lol, my decision to quit playing mmo's is once again reaffirmed.
I'll stick with games where my ability wins for me, not an excessive amount of time doing repetitive tasks. - locojones, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10Just another example of how Blizzard consistently comes up with rules and terms of service that are so vague and open to interpretation that one doesn't know where the line is drawn, much less how to stay away from it. If this were a piece of legislation, it would be struck down as unconstitutionally vague because a reasonable person could not tell to which activities it applies, and which it does not. And what's worse is, the interpretation of the rules is left up to the GMs. From my experience, all of the GMs I have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with have been on power trips and were completely unwilling to indulge any other viewpoint, however rational, than their own.
- Chicken, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7The guy was using his keyboard and periodically moving in to press a button. Why the ***** is that a problem to blizzard? He's still participating in the game. Don't forget, he was training a priest. For ***** sake, what harm can a ***** priest do? They should be happy that this guy was actually semi-participating in his priest training (which he claims it as unnecessary).
And the complaint about Blizzard's vague answers astonishes me. You're paying $15 a month for 4 or more months. It doesn't matter if its their game, you should be able to get a ***** explanation on why you got banned, not just some answer that was useless and reworded over and over again. All you guys backing up blizzard; what the *****? A business's goal is to make the consumer happy. This guy wasn't doing anything harmful to other players and the advantage that he's gaining is nothing. Are you guys ***** blizzard fan boys who try to rationalize Blizzard's actions because you feel you're being targeted since you guys are WoW players also? (I don't play WoW) - locojones, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I am particularly fond of the Blizzard response to a concerned player's inquiry about what the test is for banning of accounts:
"Without going into specifics, the main part involves human interaction. We can't be more specific on what that interaction is, as it may give "botters" more insight into how they can avoid detection."
The converse is, it also keeps more legitimate players in the dark as to how to spare their accounts from unjustifiable deletion. But whatever.
Interestingly, their answer sounds conspicuously like our President's responses to his keeping the wiretapping thing secret from the public lol It didn't work then either. - philomatic, on 02/08/2009, -3/+8I bet they support stable servers too.
- ownedbytheman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I am harkening back to my UO days using UOAssist to work my magery to 100 while I slept. Ahhh, memories.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I never understood the attraction to games like this. If the user is forced to do repeative maybe even trivial tasks that occupy a good portion of his play time (which he/she is paying for in this case. obviously they are if some feel the need to use bots) what fun is that? If you're using a bot your not playing anyway so why bother in the first place.
- Jugalator, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6The only thing I can agree with you here is that he should've been warned first, not banned right away, because these keyboards can be a grey area, and it's obviously what you do with them that decides how severly it goes against the TOS. But, on the other hand, this guy very well knew botting wasn't allowed, and he also knew he was using it to "play the game" while watching his movies. So there should be some alarm bells ringing there already. But since Blizzard has earlier said that programmable keyboards were OK, they should've started with a warning just to get the opportunity to clarify that it's OK as long as you don't violate the TOS with your behavior, by e.g. playing the game unattended.
As usual with any MMO, it's how you play the game that matters, not what hardware you use. And that's as it should be. - evensong, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7They only say "support programmable gaming peripherals" only to appease the those part of this niche industry. Zboard, which makes custom keyboards for World of Warcraft and many other games is actually a partner of Blizzard. Surely flat out stating no programmable peripherals would not please them. And doing so won't bode well for relations between major players such at Logitech either.
In reality, Blizzard will not allow keyboards to be programmed further than single run functions (no loops). Which is effectively useless because the macro system native to World of Warcraft can handle it and more with a few lines of code. - casiotone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5When you agreed to pay for the service you agreed to follow their rules.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4There is check your profile. Under each story you've dugg their will be an undigg button next to the catagory and comments information.
- Herolint, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I can see not allowing bots and crap to ruin the game for everybody else, but assuming the story that caused all this is true, I think Blizzard sucks and I would never buy this game.
Regardless of what evil thing you do in WoW, you should at least get a warning outlining specific reason for the warning and ways to remedy the situation. I think it is wrong to charge somebody money for something, have them waste a year of their life progressing in the game, and then pull their account. Totally gay in my opinion. - MilitantQueer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4People who play World of Warcraft should already know that fully automated game play via hardware/software violates the terms of service. I am sure the player who started this whole mess knew exactly what he was doing; He knew that his actions violated the ToS.
He just tried to pull one over on Blizzard. - Jugalator, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Blizzard DOES support programmable gaming peripherals for World of Warcraft, just not using them effectively. As long as the game doesn't become overly easy, keyboard macros are okay. I thought that's what macros where for..."
Yes, that's what macros are for besides in a computer game against botting. How can this be so hard to understand? If you can play the game unattended with macros, what IS the difference from the forbidden botting, anyway? The method you employ has nothing to do with it, it's the action that matters. - Judix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Interesting. This is one of the reasons I quit WoW. It was a great game, but I got bored of it fairly quickly too. In my opinion the reasons I quit had to do with alot of differing factors:
-my age (I'm 32, I get bored very quickly and I have almost zero patience for certain stuff that I would have tolerated years ago-chat abuse, jerk players, bandwidth problems, etc.)
-paying monthly (its not a bad price, but I just don't play it enough to justify spending 15 bucks a month on it, and I know they have a pre-paid card, but I still think its a waste at this point)
-As a "creative" person (read: insane), I get bored with things pretty quickly and I like to design my own card-games/board-games that I feel are more interactive and fun to play in person.
-level grinding, its still a problem for any MMORPG game, but WoW was pretty good about it... I still felt that I had to keep up with other players and blaze through quests without really enjoying them so that I wouldnt get left behind. Very frustrating for a casual player.
-Not alot of actual interaction. I don't consider sitting in front of a computer screen for more than 4 hours really a great way to interact and have fun with other people. I know there is Vent so you can talk easier and I did have fun playing Counterstrike back in the day, but I still feel worlds away from people playing online games. LAN parties are much better, but I think cardgames and boardgames are even better for social interaction.
Well, there is more I could point out about WoW, but it was fun while it lasted :) .... and I might returen someday.
J - panique, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6It's called a "Skinner Box". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box
And like someone else here said, if you don't want to feel like a rat in a maze getting shocked all the time and rewarded rarely, don't play the game. This actually is the sole reason I do not play WoW. - Raveren, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3'But instead you stuck spending hours upon hours doing redundant tasks just to have a moment of excitement."
Reminds me of life - Ignathius, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3the difference is, Blizzard's in-game UI is limited in the use of creating macro's. the 1 thing they've tried to do more than anything else in reguards to their UI, is make it so you can't automate gameplay.
Servitude:
this mod used to cast Warlock pet skills automatically. with no input from the player at all. their LUA API was changed to prevent this. in order for servitude to make the pet cast a skill, the user has to initiate it first (it's down to a 1button masher that does everything. basically now it gives you an onscreen warning of what skill the pet needs to cast, you press 1 button and the pet casts it).
autotravel:
this mod used to allow you to press 1 button, and send your character off on a journey all by his lonesome to whatever end point you wanted. they changed their LUA API to prevent this. there was a tweak of this mod at one point that would automatically get off the boat if you were changing continents.
in-game macros:
they've never allowed you to chain-link skills or commands in the in-game macro system. you can't make an in-game macro to do: cast spell 1 - wait x secs - cast spell 2 - wait x secs - cast spell 3, all in 1 button press.
while WoW is easily the most customizable MMO there is on the player side (macros, scripts, editable UI), they still don't allow automated gameplay, which is excatally what this user was doing. he was able to play the game, without paying any attention to the game.
reguardless if it's done via software like innerspace, or hardware like the G15 keyboard, it's still botting because it's allowing you to play the game without actually playing the game. just because i was in the same room as my bot during 85% of the time it was running, doesn't mean it's not playing it for me. just because he's sitting at his PC desk, doesn't mean the G15 wasen't playing the game for him.
this guy's just looking for attention. he got his warning and chose to ignore it. he got cought again, and was banned. now he's acting like he did nothing wrong. *****. - brandonhines, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6All MMOs are that way. Don't push that on WoW exclsuively. Grinding is the price of admission. If you don't like it don't play.
- Bradl3y, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Many people are asking, where does Blizzard "Draw the line". Not everything is black and white, they see a player that is using a program (programmed keyboard in this case) to play the game for him, and use their best judgment to determine whether it is in violation and what the consequences should be. Stay clear on the fair side of the line, play the game as it is meant to be played, and I really do not see you running in to any issues.
- boybunny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What is even more funny is the fact that half of Blizzards replys seem to be 100% automated.
IRONY. - icetigaurus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"So, if anything, let this be a warning: even if Blizzard states that programmable keyboards are OK, you will get banned if you use them, depending on the situation. Its just a shame that due to the massive real botters, they aren't open to any real world explanations."
Blizzard was definetly wrong for banning this guy outright. First of all, it has been their continuing policy before this that it was ok to use programmable hardware like keyboards to automate things in the game (in fact Blizzard is supposedly partnered with one of these manufacturers). They had stated previously that they were after 3rd party programs and hacks that ruin the game for other people.
The guy made a very polite and informed response to inquire as to why he got banned but Blizzard left no means of appealing his permanent ban (without any warning) which was contrary to their previous policies. Blizzard obviously tried to make an example of this guy but made a big mistake and then created that post to try and cover their asses after the sh!t hit the fan.
It is obviously Blizzard's choice to decide whether or not these programmable keyboards should be allowed, but they sure as hell should clearly state exactly what their policy is before they start banning without warning. This definetly deserves to be known and Blizzard should get some hell for it. - lostboy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3the truth of this is quite simple, players innovate in someway, blizz see's it's got caught with it's pants down because it's designed a system that is extremely easy to take advantage of and then decides to rewrite it's own rules. Of course it's their priviledge to reinterpret their own TOS but I've seen blizz changing their positions on things many, many a time. Apart from anything else they put an API into the game for people to be able to take advantage of, then realized that they had written a woefully insecure and broad api that allowed a massive amount of abuse so started reigning it in.
They set ground rules then keep on shifting the goal posts, they constantly go back on promises they've made, their GM's have a license to behave however they like and like blizz treats it's customers like *****. Thats why I chucked in my WoW account. - travhimself, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I think it's pretty obvious that there's a difference between using macro's to make life easier, and using programmable peripherals to automate functions that you'd otherwise have to do manually. I also think it's pretty obvious that the guy who was the subject of the original post fell into the latter category. I do agree that Blizzard was awfully harsh in the way they dealt with it, but come on... The guy had to know that he was doing something wrong.
- Zephyrspecial, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Punkbuster wouldn't help with macros - it's only to prevent cheats, which mostly involve changing the binaries of the game. Invincibility or the ability to see/move through walls/jungle are some of the cheats for the FPS games. It would be hard to make a bot for an FPS game, as they happen fairly quickly, and there are no assets to accumulate and sell.
Apparently WoW is filled with repetitive tasks that become boring after the first time or first several times through. It also contains virtual assets such as gold and items that people who are interested in playing the non-repetitive parts of the game will pay for. People who have more time to waste doing repetitive tasks or have bots to do the tasks for them take advantage of that.
Blizzard is trying to sell continued subscriptions, and in order to do so they need to make the game take up a lot of time. Blizzard also makes money on the subscriptions paid for by the people using bots, and then bans them before they are able to sell the virtual assets they've accumulated. - Jugalator, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4The problem to me is that these keyboards supports actions that ALWAYS violated the WoW TOS. And it's the actions that matter, not whether you're using hardware or software to play unattended (= botting).
"The difference is that when you're using a keyboard macro you're still actively participating in the game."
??? The guy getting busted for this in the story was someone who decided to use this method while watching movie and TV, according to himself! Very active collaboration in the game world, that... - panique, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Please don't confuse PunkBuster with GameSpy. Not that I love PunkBuster, but I know I definitely despise GameSpy. PB is created by a company called Even Balance.
- Vlatro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Banning the account is going a bit too far. He did after all pay for the game andthe service. If unattended macroing can be detected on their end, why not just popup a response box in a random postion on the screen with a random question that requires an accurate response. If no reply or an inncorrect reply comes back, the character loses experience, all items, or whatever people are after with macroing. That would save the game for people to use one or two macros from time to time to enhance gameplay without allowing the game to unfairly be slanted to favor those who invest no time in it.
- XMorbius, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Not trying to be off topic here, but at 6 pages the comments so far have been really interesting. Lots of complaints on how the game scans for cheats, about treatment from the GMs, and Blizzard's policy on bans. Even several complaints of actual botters in different parts of WoW. All coming from high-level players, players who have experience with the game. Its interesting to see so many complaints by people with experience in the game. Of course, just because they have experience with the game that doesn't mean their complaints are legit... some are barely even thought out. That said, the number of negative comments about "behind the scenes" things on WoW is alarming.
Also, it was nice to see some people complain about how tedious the game gets after a while, and how spending 8 hours a day on it isn't something to be proud of. I personally had a 2-week run with WoW, and while it was fun, eventually it just got to be too much of the same for me. I guess it's just nice to see that even level 60s have that problem ^_^ - Firepants, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The really unfair thing about the guy who got banned was that he wasn't warned, how was he supposed to know what he was doing was againts the rules?
- VenDrake, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7You would think so, except that they ban people who don't deserve it, don't require any justification, and they get to be judge, jury, and prosecution. They also, apparently, don't listen when someone tries to talk to them.
- Osjpr, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8thing is, these keyboards do exactly what the software form is banned for. "It's ok, as long as it's hardware."
- simbaB, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm not a gamer in any sense, but frankly the stuff I read about online games like World of Warcraft bothers me. It's a virtual world entirely controlled by one corporation, Blizzard, and from what I've read they take well, ehm, a rather active role in managing it (virtual police state would be my term of choice, but I digress). The prices and monthly fees are highway robbery, enough to completely snuff out my already tepid curiosity, but the thing that really bothers me is the way these games are controlled. Maybe I'm just used to the fiercely anarchist nature of the Internet and computing in general, but the way the gaming industry treats its customers (and the way the customers always come back for more) gives me a bad feeling towards the whole world of gaming.
- CaptainMal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2If you can't see where the line is drawn, and it is CLEARLY drawn, then you're an idiot.
Automated play = bot.
Bot = Ban.
Regardless of the equipment or tools that allowed him to automate his play, he got banned for botting because he automated a task in game so that he did not have to pay attention.
It's clear as day, and there's no doubt he intentionally botted.
What boggles my mind is that the dude bought a $100 keyboard SO HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO PLAY the game he's paying $15 a month to play. If you don't like the skill or whatever or think it's boring, THEN DON'T DO IT, and if you don't like what it takes to get your skill up but need the skill, then put up with the monotony like everbody else and quit being such a whiner. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2You're painting a wide brush there. There's a difference between macros and bots that may use many and complex macros. City of Heroes lets you use macros in the powers tray and the game is plenty tough even with them.
- Zephyrspecial, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3report it as lame, dude
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If people were really all that upset with Blizzard they'd stop playing. Your wallet is the only vote that counts. As long as subscription numbers climb, everytime Blizzard cashes your check, they hear "Great job guys! I think you're running the game so well I want you to have this money."
- northLite, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2the bottom line : if your custom binds, equipment, whatever, allow your character to keep doing actions in game without you paying attention or going afk then its illegal
- MoFoKeR, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1lucky, i gotta sit there and aim every single headshot and i cant walk away to watch tv or i get my wig split in joint operations lucky
- jdgiotta, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't know if anyone has said it or not, but what about handicaps? For some reason, I can see allot of people griping about not being allowed to use macros playing football 1 yard from goal everytime they're in possesion. Or how about 1' from basketball hoop. The point is that you're winning because you're essentially "cheating". Rather than Blizzard ban some one they should give everyone not using macros a handicap.
They would be cheating because they created an unfair advantage through fraud. - alai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2This is a very poor caption for this digg. Basically the post from Blizzard says you can set up macros with keyboards like this, but you cant automate things so much that you dont even have to pay attention to the game. Makes sense to me.
- Moocat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Are they playing the same game I did? Because back when I played it, it was as easy as hit a button wait about a minute, rinse, repeat. Heck, with the warlock, I didn't even have to move half the time, just sit in an area with slightly lower level mobs I still got xp off of and cycle through them with the tab key. I could easily watch a movie and play WoW at the same time, it's brainless unless you're doing PvP or a raid. If they want to catch more people macroing, they might want to put some other things "to do" while tabbing between NPCs and hitting "Pet attack".
- Osjpr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1look, you people keep saying its illegal. NO ITS NOT. Tyren made a post about it RTFA. The catch is it hinges on complaints. Now who is going to know someone is botting without wasting countless hours studying the player? Noone. Hence for the same task, hardware is ok, software is not ok.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"he difference is that when you're using a keyboard macro you're still actively participating in the game."
The issue here is that the guy who started this whole issue was NOT actively participating in the game, he was watching TV and tapping a button every n seconds. -
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