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130 Comments
- Nath4n, on 10/11/2007, -2/+44What i find incredible is that the last game ever banned was Carmageddon in 1997. Think about how mild and unrealistic Carmageddon is now compared to the majority of games on sale. Who knows what games are going to be like in another 10 years!
- PhantomBantam, on 10/11/2007, -6/+40What I find incredible is how britain tolerates this infringement of liberties. Please correct me if I'm wrong. While I'm sure it's a great place to live (nice pound, btw), the laws that are passed over there are right out of 1984.
Then again, we can't say "*****" on TV. Those in glass houses... - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -5/+33Buried for mentioning his name in a thread discussing:
a) A game made by a company in the United Kingdom where he has no reach.
b) A decision by the British Board of Film Classification, an independent body which has always upheld the highest standards and sets a firm example for other ratings boards around the world.
The more you people keep mentioning that name the higher his profile and the easier it is for him to do things which people seem not to be in favour of. - double2, on 10/11/2007, -6/+32for ***** sake, it's a bloody game! I was so looking forward to this coming out, especially because of the wii controls! Looks like I'll have to invest in an action replay when it comes out.
Seriously, I don't understand: why can someone else choose what ***** computer games or videos I can watch? With ***** websites like ogrish readily available to all 13 year old kids who access the internet, why are they not contacting our ISPs and getting these censored?! That's actually real! They wouldn't even think of censoring a movie book or TV programme, so what the ***** justifies censoring a game?! Just more proof that my wonderful country is behind the times and seriously old fashioned.
In fact, just to spite them, I'm going to go kill a classroom full of kids RIGHT now! See you guys in a bit... - chicaneuk, on 10/11/2007, -0/+23And yet films like Hostel and other such "torture porn" movies like Hostel are released over here with no problems.. but a violent video game is banned?
Insanity.
Kind of amusing to see how times and trends change however.. if Carmageddon was released now, people wouldn't even bat an eyelid. - ChrisJP, on 10/11/2007, -0/+17Although Carmageddon (the uncut version) did actually get released after SCi won a high-court case against the BBFC and the ban was lifted. Before that we had the stupid zombie version (same with C2 I think). I still proudly own both uncut versions.
- Azimuth1, on 10/11/2007, -1/+18Oh, also note that the BBFC is an independent body, not a part of the government, and the law says that if something is refused a BBFC rating it is not allowed to be sold. So it's not the government directly banning this game, it's a law indirectly causing this particular game to not be allowed to be sold.
- Azimuth1, on 10/11/2007, -5/+20"What I find incredible is how britain tolerates this infringement of liberties."
It's actually extremely rare for this to happen in this country. In fact I can't think of a single game in history that has ever been banned here. We're usually one of the most tolerant countries in the world when it comes to violent games etc.
So if Manhunt 2 has been banned here of all places, that says something about the level of violence in it... - Oetzi, on 10/11/2007, -2/+17very true. hardly anything gets banned in the UK. Very few countries will be getting it I'm afraid.
- ChrisJP, on 10/11/2007, -1/+13This is the BRITISH Board of Film Classification... I don't why you get that feeling, because he doesn't have any impact on anything here in the UK. Why would he be involved. If it was the ESRB maybe so, but not outside the US.
- PhantomBantam, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11Good thing Hillary is out on the campaign trail, otherwise we might be hearing something about it.
- jads, on 10/11/2007, -2/+12One of the main reasons this game was banned was because of a murder where the parents of the killer said the first manhunt game caused him to take a life.
To be honest, if the parents believed this, then they were just as responsible when they took no action when their child was playing a game that was aimed at 18+.
Ultra Violent films aren't banned as they can just be classified as 18. But when it comes to games, oh no. Do parents not realise that games have a classification system for a reason? - rnewson, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10@sonycam
"... murdered as a direct result of the original Manhunt (or so the court was told)"
As you hint at, I recall that this allegation was flat-out false. It was the *victim* that had a copy of the game, so this is another example of wishful thinking. The connection between playing violent games and being violent is tenuous, to say the least.
Frankly, the idea that Manhunt *causes* murder is offensive. People kill people. It's as sane as saying the writing a book *causes* suicide bombings. - ChrisJP, on 10/11/2007, -2/+11@phantombantom: What are you talking about "tolerating" this? This 'banning' has literally just happened today. What exactly did you expect would happen, and instant outrage across the country? This is only the 2nd game to ever be banned in the UK, and the 1st one had it's banning overruled. We haven't exactly had anything to really tolerate.
@hyperjack: Didn't you think to import from a European country? Shipping is much cheaper too.
In fact to anyone in the UK that's thinking of importing for their PAL console. Just import from basically any European country except France (they still use SECAM there) and obviously the USA where they use NTSC. That's assuming it's released in other countries of course. - chris9902, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10The BBFC has NOTHING to do with the government.
http://www.bbfc.co.uk/ - n1pz, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10I'm from the UK myself and until is saw this article, I didn't want this game. now its got me curious to take a look... nice work BBFC.
- Dpack1, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10What you meant to say instead of "(btw, i'm just an American who saw 'V for Vendetta')" is "(btw, i'm just an American who saw 'V for Vendetta' and have no clue what it was actually about nor how the BBFC is independant of the UK Government but enjoy making an ass of myself online by quoting movie lines)"
- funkywood, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Or how about Saw? Didn't anyone else notice the similarities with Man Hunt? (Evil little clowns on trikes, pighead men, grainy video with a phycho narrator...?)
- OgnodoD, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8"note that the BBFC is an independent body, not a part of the government, and the law says that if something is refused a BBFC rating it is not allowed to be sold. So it's not the government directly banning this game, it's a law indirectly causing this particular game to not be allowed to be sold.
That's a clever way to destroy liberty there. It's not an unusual tactic by governments of the world, but it's disgusting just the same.
Let's not kid ourselves. If the government passes a law that says that a game (or book, movie, etc., doesn't matter, the principle is the same) cannot be sold if X refuses to give it the OK, and X refuses to give the OK because of content, then it's ultimately censorship because of the government. The fact that it's indirect does nothing to change the fact that it's sale has been made illegal due to its content.
So yes, blame the government. Don't fall for the weak "It's not our fault" claims. That's just clever misdirection. - chris9902, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7because by law you can't sell something without a rating. So if the BBFC don't rate it shops won't stock it. = banned
- tinoproductions, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8torrent what?
- diogenes666, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8if ive learned anything from ***** morality forced into the public agenda by private interests, its that killing people is ok, but only After they have turned into zombies.
- Fafnir43, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8Remind me again, how many people have died as a result of the publication of the Bible? The Qu'ran? Marx's "The Communist Manifesto"? Any number of other works? Hell, "The Matrix" has apparently inspired a few shootings. Should we ban all those, too?
I'm not saying Manhunt has any real literary value, but the bottom line: people are *****. Banning things won't help, and it sets very dangerous precedents. And banning video games is just ***** stupid.
And as for the family: ***** them, frankly. I sympathise to some extent, but preventing hundreds of thousands of people from playing a harmless (if gory) video game to satisfy nine or ten people? Not to mention the fact that the murder was committed by a 17 year old anyway, who couldn't legally own the game in the UK since it's rated 18. And the link to Manhunt goes about as far as the killer playing the game, and AFAIK it was never introduced in court.
I wouldn't normally buy the game (too violent for me), but I'm considering importing a copy now just to make a statement. - nihilisticmonk, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7That UK Murder case was ***** *****.
It turned out it was the VICTIM that played the game, not the KILLER
The killer was a junkie who killed him for drug money.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/04/manhunt_murder_claim/ - GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10What's annoying is that this government is going on about Britishness while civil liberties have always been a big British thing mainly because we have a history of incompetent rule and have always sorted ourselves out and damn the state to hell. When our royal family got out of line we over threw them and when they were allowed back in it was only on the condition they held no real power (though I'd still like to be rid of the monarchy).
Right now we have a subversion of traditional British culture in favour of more mainland Europe style big state rule. The daft thing is the same people who are pushing this pretend to be pro-Britain and Eurosceptic. Amazing since the big state is a French idea. - chazuk, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7BBFC.
British Borad of Film Classification.
***** all to do with the rest of europe! ;) - ChrisJP, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6For your PAL console? Good luck getting that to work, they still use SECAM in France ;)
Anywhere else in Europe is your best bet (or Aus/NZ). That's assuming it's released elsewhere... - superspud, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6This sounds a lot like a story my dad was telling me a few days ago about when Monty Python's The Meaning of Life was released in the cinema 'back in the day'.
At that time, there was a board of 'Ethics and Moral Protection' or something similar where he lived, that was made up of PTA mothers, religious types and other folks who had some agenda to push. Well, they banned the showing of The Meaning of Life, making a huge fuss of it; putting notices up in the local press, etc., so everyone went to the next county over to watch it.
If that wasn't enough though, it turned out that one of the board members worked for BT (British Telecom), and was sent to jail a few weeks after the banning of the film for messing with the payroll logs. A man who was put in place to protect the ethics of a county was sent to jail for playing around with his salary. Pathetic.
Banning the game is only going to play on people's human instinct for curiosity, "Hey, what's in the game that's so gorey they had to ban it?" - proceed to www.amazon.co.fr to find out ;) - Electric_Sheep, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7I have no idea. Perhaps this ban relates to catholics wanting to blow up the protestant King James I?
I think it's hilarious that people think "remember remember..." is from 'V from Vendetta'. - break99, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5I don't get it.. I'm in Canada (NTSC) and I can play PAL DVDs on my original XBOX.
This all format thing is BS. - break99, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7Is it just me or the simple fact that a game is banned makes the most powerful marketing tool out of it.
Just for that I think I'll buy it. thanks UK! - mjenkins, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5@echonull
With matchstick calling US "thick" and then saying "sensorship" instead of "censorship", I think it was pretty much a given that I curse his teachers too ;) - ShadedSpriter, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4the victim owned the game...and it is *****...
I am sure a letter writing campaign to the BBFC or other organisation will happen sometime soon and I will be a part of it. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4The BBFC is one of, if not the best ratings board from around the world - the UK is one of very few places where the sticker with an age on the game says, with legal backing, who is able to play it.
We don't want anything like the ESRB here - it's a lot of nonsense. - mjenkins, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4@dpack1
Thanks for the laugh :)
Thanks for the responses. I always thought that the Gunpowder Plot was related to freedom of religion and historical issues concerning the line of succession to the throne. Censorship would have been more of a symptom so I couldn't find that connection. I started cursing my amerocentric history professors ;) - superspud, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Not all of Europe has been banned from selling the game: just the UK.
UK !=Europe
Also, as far as i remember, most of Europe uses the PAL tv standard. That is, except for France who used the soviet SECAM standard. - ChrisJP, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Well, regardé le map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:NTSC-PAL-SECAM.svg
Shows you which countries use which. :) - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Just wait, the United Kingdom won't be the only place where this game is "banned".
- n1pz, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4"So do drug laws but you dont complain about that"
That may have been appropriate in your circumstances earlier but this is digg! There are plenty of people on here who complain about weed laws!
"also ilegal(sic) to import it,"
I'm not sure myself how games are covered by this but don't just assume that it is the same as films (Of course you may be right.) - Dpack1, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6The reason (while i dont agree with it) is because you're a voyuer of the movie or book, with a video game its assumed you 'are' the main character and getting rewarded for performing such actions rather then just watching them.
If they had reversed the roles where you were just trying to escape from a bunch of people trying to kill you and reward you for being unhurt then it would pass censorship with no issues.
Though i'm a firm believer (as are many psychologists) in that releasing violent aggression is actually good for you and doesnt train you to become axe wielding maniacs. - mjenkins, on 10/11/2007, -4/+7I'm trying to figure out why someone would refer to Guy Fawkes in response to this article. Being that I'm American, perhaps I don't understand all the intricacies of the Gunpowder Plot that would cause someone to relate it to this game. Can some kind Brit please explain the connection (if there is one)?
Unless of course matchstick is calling for a repeat, in which case I'll join everyone else in digging down the comment.... - sparced, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3The televison will accept the signal, but we would have to have either a chipped or US Wii to play it on in the first place. The games are region locked.
- HyperJack, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6Damn. Even getting it off ebay won't work because the UK is PAL and the US is NTSC.
- Fafnir43, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4It's all in the precedent.
- Zoids, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6@mjenkins
I'm English. I have no idea what the connection is either. :( - ImYourRealDad, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4It it appeased your inner twelve-year-old, good for you. But I like substance in my games.
- diazamet, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3The murder happened in the UK. In no way am I excusing the murderer who was just ***** up in the head and deserves to burn in hell. When the murder was first in the news, although many tabloids jumped on the issue of the murderer being influenced by the 'Manhunt' game, it was revealed that it was the victim who owned the 'Manhunt' game not the murderer.
- Override, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5@ sonycam
"It wasn't banned for being a violent game, it was banned as a 14 year old was murdered as a direct result of the original Manhunt (or so the court was told). What kind of justice would it be to the family if they were then allowed to go on and sell the sequel which is apparently a lot worse. This is why organisations like the BBFC are around.
Personally, I think that people who try to imitiate killing in video games already have issues, but this game seems like it's pointless brutal killings so, as a brit, I'm glad it was banned."
And that, my friend, is the slippery slope. Ever since anything 'dark' or outside the mainstream has been about, there have been people accusing it of causing suicides and deaths. Granted, from all I've heard about Manhunt 2, it does seem pretty extreme, but that's the way to gain popularity by word of mouth for many; be more extreme than the guy before you.
But before this it was Halo 3 (according to Mr Thompson, anyway..). Before that it was Bully. Before that it was Grand Theft Auto. Before that, Carmageddon. Before that, Doom. Before all of those (and continuing in parallel) it was heavy metal lyrics, and before that, horror / slasher movies, and before that, television. And before THAT, they just outright burned people alive at the stake for witchcraft and didn't try to maintain the pretense that it's all about protecting the children. ;) A little far in the analogy perhaps, but no matter how far you go back, there have always been the ignorant and the uneducated and those who buy into the media sensationalism and hype.
To quote Chris Rock talking about the 'Trenchcoat Mafia',
"And everybody is like, 'What were they listening to? What were they listening to?' Who CARES what they were listening to! What the ***** was HITLER listening to? What was in HIS CD case? Everybody is like, 'What were they listening to? Is it the lyrics? Is it the movies? Is it the lyrics?' Why can't they just be crazy?!"
It boils down to the fact that people psychologically need someone to blame for tragedy. They need something to vent their hate and anger and sorrow to. In a lot of these cases where people go nuts and kill a bunch of people, the person committing the crime commits suicide at the end of their killing spree. Thus, no more individual to blame for their suffering. Some people get angry at friends and family, some of the more religious get angry at God and some, usually spurred on by the media, try and work out what made these people snap. So inevitably the police check out the home of the person who carried out the terrible acts, with the media in tow and as soon as they find anything like heavy metal albums, computer games or slasher movies, suddenly that becomes the reason for their insanity. Can you imagine if you went on a killing spree and committed suicide and people had to come up with a reason why you did it based entirely on your belongings? Every knife you own points to your homicidal tendencies, every power tool, slasher movie and computer game part of your murder simulation fantasies.
It sucks, but sometimes people are just crazy. People are crazy and evil, and sometimes just snap and do crazy and evil things. What about the terrorists (Be it Islamic or Christian, there are both kinds) that try to blow up abortion clinics, or government buildings, or blow even themselves up in a suicide bomb attack to kill hundreds or even thousands of innocent people? Why don't we try to ban the Bible or the Koran as the source of THEIR evil and insanity? Why don't we ban guns or knives because sometimes killers are obsessed with weaponry? There is some correlation between the loners who are bullied at school and their tendency towards 'alternative' music, movies and computer games, but which one came first? Do they lose it because they are into this stuff, or are they into that stuff because they have a problem? I think personally that sometimes people are evil and crazy; sometimes they'll be into dark movies and music and games, but that isn't a cause, just an incidental occurrence. There are millions of people who love horror movies, who play the most violent video games, who listen to the most hardcore metal music and are perfectly normal and well balanced. The reason we DON'T ban the Bible or the Koran as a source of evil is because we acknowledge that the extremists who carry out atrocities in the name of their God are in a minority to the people who benignly follow the same teachings.
It boils down to censorship. Here's how it should work: If you don't approve of the game, don't buy it. If you don't want your kids to play it, don't let them buy it. That is called personal responsibility and indeed responsible parenting. I am fed up with people, usually right-wing religious types, who feel the need to ban everything they disagree with. If you don't like it, DON'T BUY IT! You can do anything you like; you can protest against it, you can tell all your friends and family not to buy it and to spread the word to others to do the same; you have the freedom of expression and speech to do all of that. What you DON'T have the right to do is deny other people those freedoms just because you don't agree with them. Like, for example, everyone saying that the wonderful thing about the first amendment is that the most racist, hate-filled speech is permitted... but god forbid you should say ***** on TV or the radio.
On the topic at hand though, it is only because of sensationalism and the desire to find something to blame that one family accused a game of being responsible for the motivation of a killer. Their loss is tragic and the killer truly evil, but should we ban all guns because people are killed as a result of people owning them? All knives? All music? All computer games? All movies? Apart from the wrongness of leaping to conclusions, there are already too many sources in the world for the same sort of material. If you ban something, people can order it from another country or download it from the Internet. As people have already said about this game, it can be ordered from other European countries if it isn't banned there too. It could also lead to greatly increased piracy, as people download copies anywhere they can find them.
If you don't like it, don't buy it; simple as that. - bIuebonics, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3and? i think the old testament should be banned due to the immoral nature of killing and sexual relations.
- phatfish, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4"The reason (while i dont agree with it) is because you're a voyeur of the movie or book, with a video game its assumed you 'are' the main character and getting rewarded for performing such actions rather then just watching them."
There is a lot of debate about whether Video Games are more immersive than Films. When watching a film you have no control over the experience, you are a passive participant. As a pose to video games, where you are in control of what is taking place on screen. Yes you can hit pause, or close your eyes to stop watching a film. But it is taken in the context that you want to watch the movie, and are happy to submit to the experience.
Games are designed to halt the experience with menus (inventory management, saving etc.) and often have a HUD or other distractions on screen to keep you out of full immersion. Untill we are plugged directly into a virtual reality, i would argue that movies can be a much more immersive experience than games, as far as your mental state during watching or playing is concerned. -
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