What is Digg?201 Comments
- Ignignokt01, on 10/12/2007, -1/+44Windows != Xbox, Xbox 360
- CanadianGeese, on 10/12/2007, -2/+37@HappyScrappy
You are absolutely right... HDTV consumers 3-4 years ago should have traveled forward in time just to double check that the PS3 (the claimed beginning of high def) would be compatible with older technology.
I mean, that's how it should work, right? When you are designing a new technology, you shouldn't try to make it work with existing technology, right?
I know who's fault this is... it's the consumers fault. And it's the fault of the company that created the technology. Everyone should have expected the PS3 not to be backwards compatible with all older TVs.
I don't know who's more of a fool... Sony, or you for listening to Sony... - strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -4/+37Oh... so it's that funny little part that Sony left out that's screwing over people with HDTVs that are 3 years old?
- CanadianGeese, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31"Again, it isn't Sony's fault that they bought a TV that didn't do what it was supposed to do."
No Scrappy, they bought a console that didn't do what it's supposed to do. - CanadianGeese, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31I'd much rather have ANNA and have all of my games upscaled over component cables, rather than have downscaling only with HDMI.
And, for those of you worried about the ICT or DOT being turned on in future high-def movies, just snatch up the VGA cable.
I gotta hand it to MS. They really seem to have thought of everything this round. Kudos! - ForlornHope, on 10/12/2007, -1/+28Am I the only one who finds it hilarious that they did the demo on a Sony TV? Insult to injury...
- CanadianGeese, on 10/12/2007, -2/+28@Happy Scrappy
You are joking right? You blame the people buying the HDTV 3-4 years ago? Your average person to this day still doesn't even know the difference between 720p and 720i. Leave it to an ignorant Sony fanboy to come up with a comment like that. - xmetal2001, on 10/12/2007, -0/+25It's a better solution than what Sony came up with.
- Gerz1219, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25Hah, except since the PS3 has a GPU that's a full generation behind the 360, the only way the PS3 can actually render games at 1080p is to take massive frame rate hits. You'll see most games for both systems rendered at 720p because it always allows for greater graphical detail and effects while maintaining a smoother frame rate. It will always be true that a game running at 1080p will run smoother at 720p -- therefore the devs will generally opt to support the more popular and available resolution, rather than sacrifice visual quality. The difference is that the 360 can upscale a 720p game to 1080i/p, whereas the PS3 can only downscale.
- Clemenceau, on 10/12/2007, -5/+28Actually, it wasn't terrible. Just console yourself with this: Alex Albrecht has made worse ones on a podcast heard by thousands.
- dvsbastard, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21Sony is the new Microsoft... apparently! :)
- konspence, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19The Xbox 360 has the option for 1080p, not that anybody will be able to tell the difference between 1080i and 1080p
- 1021, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Gfx, Have you even tried PGR3 on 360? Ignorance is bliss as long as ignorant people stfu.
- i64X, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16I can play PGR3 at 720p or 1080i with no problems.
Have you ever even touched a 360? - ricree, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Call it what you will, but as far as I'm concerned, if it looks good, then it looks good. I don't really care if you have a bunch of fancy sounding tech specs. It's the final result that matters.
- FunkyWitDaSysTm, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19you thought? when? do you have proof?
- konspence, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18oldtimegamer,
I would't classify that as codespeak, I would classify this as codespeak: (windows != (xbox|xbox360))
Then again, codespeak is annoying. - Gerz1219, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13@FormulaOne -- The PS3's GPU is roughly equivalent to a last-generation DX9 GeForce 7800. The 360's Xenos GPU is based on ATI's next-gen DX10 architecture, which hasn't even been released yet for the enthusiast PC market.
No, I haven't seen GT HD. And I'll never be able to compare it to an equivalent 360 game, because it's a Sony exclusive. I have no doubt that the PS3 will be able to render some games at 1080p -- that's not the question here. What you have to understand is that any game running at 1080p would run smoother at 720p, and that rendering at the lower resolution allows for more graphical detail and effects. Read the reviews for any cross-platform launch title for the PS3 -- they all complain about the shaky framerate. This is either because of the PS3's inferior GPU, Sony's push for the useless 1080p standard, or both. - nyrol2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Holy *****. You guys are really nerdy. But && would be the most correct. Marcan is right.
- BlackKnight6, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@tubejay
When something is scaled there are many ways to do so and lots of algorithms. Some HDTVs have no scalers, some have scalers chips but do ***** jobs (just bilinear or other low level, low computation algorithms) and some have great scaler chips that actually are doing some heavy calculations. From what I understand the 360's scaler chip "ANA" seems to be quite good at guessing those new pixels. Yes, math can do this kind of stuff, get over it folks, math CAN do some amazing things where you think it would be impossible:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/02/researchers-develop-algorithm-to-combat-photo-blur/
I am NOT saying that algorithm is what is being used, obviously not, I was just making a point that you can get a 720P image up-scaled to 1080P and have actual improvement, not just "filler" pixels.
Here on Digg I feel I need to cover my bases when I try to bring up a point, hence the link. - afx1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I thought Anna was a bot? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6880888700625496919
- MacSuxWindozSux, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9um dude... The 360 scaling is better.
Its not just making the displayed picture bigger, but the screen elements are rendered in greater detail.
You get to see more pixel details in the objects on the screen.
When they talk about scaling it's not the chip doing the scaling, the chip just chooses what the resolution is going to be.
When they talk about scaling, this isn't like resizing a tiny picture to full screen in photoshop. it's like a PC game going from 640x480 to 1024x768, etc.
Literally there is more detail in the XBox 360 upscaled picture.
No TV could possibly be better at upscaling the picture. - SuMizzle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Not as silly as no scaler or better yet, a software scaler. And is NBA 07 really that good in 1080p? Is a tech demo (1 track, 10 cars) with no framerate issues that impressive? Dude, you're really a *****.
- SuMizzle, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@ FormulaBitchBoy
I appreciate the fact that you entered your misinformed comments so I and others may laugh. The 360 does upscale DVDs via VGA you ***** pussy fart. It will display DVDs at 480p via component. At least know a little bit of what you are talking about. Sony "nice enough" to let you download a DEMO for FREE? My god man, are you serious? Where's the confirmation the scaling issue will be resolved with a firmware update? Sony won't even say it's possible, but YOU know? - NeMeSiS187, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I know a bot. Her name is Anna. Anna is her name. And she can ban you, ban you so hard!
- MEGAgatchaman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Why not skip this crappy blog with misquotes and approximately half the story and get it from the source: Ben (Stasis7) at ARStechnica:
The whole story:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/headstart.ars - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Sure the 'problem' isn't Sony's but why limit your user base even more than it is?
- teamparadox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8This has nothing to do with ms resorting to upscaling. It has everything to do with the system being able to output every resolution your TV and any TV supports unlike the PS3. The 360 can do and has already done NATIVE 1080p output.
Do a little reading before you start the bashing because your wrong.
On a side note...
"No one wants to have to play upscaled games on their brand new 1080p set just because their 360 is too weak to handle running games at full resolution."
99.9% of all PS3 games will be Native 720p which is evident from the launch games and many articles and interviews from developers. - BlackKnight6, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@FormulaOne
You guys act like resolution is not the same as HDTV formats. 720P = 1280x720 and 1080P/i = 1920x1080. The GPU is the biggest factor when it comes to changing the resolution, period. The SPE's will not help the PS3 run games at higher resolutions, at least not as much as you think. My old geforce 3 could do 1600x1200, just needed to turn the game gfx way down, resolution is capped very high on a video card or system, my 7900GTX is 2048x1536 at 85Hz . Same goes for the PS3 and 360 (their own caps), they both can do 1080P but MS and the devs for the 360 (so far, we might still see 1080P games, just no reason to, less than 5% of HDTVs in homes are 1080P) feels that 720P is the sweet spot for the games.
If a game can be made at 1080P and have stable framerate, then it could run at 720P and have even more detailed worlds and characters and cars, etc. If you have a game at 1080P running at a good 30 FPS at the most detailed parts and you drop the res to 720P, you then have even more room for more world detail to add and such until the FPS starts to near 30FPS or whatever the target FPS the dev wants. A prime example is RR6 on the 360 and RR7 on the PS3. PS3 version runs at 1080P but loses all boats in the water, lower detailed water, missing trees, missing scenic roads, missing reflective effect on building windows, missing fences and railings and whatever else I didn't notice.
Its like when Farcry came with the HDR patch. To do the HDR at stable framerates people had to goto 1024x768 or even lower due to each pixel being even more complex to calculate. So gamers had to make a choice, 1600x1200 without HDR or 1024x768 with HDR. 360 game devs do the same thing but it is a permanent choice and more complex then just changing a gfx option in a menu. - CanadianGeese, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@HappyScrappy
You really have no friends, do you? - Recursiveness, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14@konspence
Actually, you just created a very subtle bug in your codespeak.
While the statement (windows != (xbox|xbox360)) would equate to true. It wouldn't equate to true for the reasons you think. (these are the worst bugs to debug).
xbox|xbox360 would apply a bitwise OR operation resulting in a value of xbox360. since windows != xbox360, it'd equate to true.
What you're looking for is (windows != (xbox || xbox360)) using a boolean or instead of the bitwise one. - LAX182, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@GfxWench
http://dpad.gotfrag.com/portal/story/35372/?spage=8
Read and learn Sony fanboy... Both consoles have their advantages. - ahatter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6no what is ugly is downscaling..
- zenerdiode, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Wait a minute here. I thought the Cell was all powerful...how could it not handle software scaling when my crappy Athlon 3000+ runs dScalar and ffdshow wonderfully at 1920x1200. hmmm...maybe it isn't all it's hyped to be?
- knodi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6someone posted this on the Playstation off-topic boards and the mods deleted it. hahaha
- BlackKnight6, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@HappyScrappy
I pointed out that game and all the stuff that OLD GPU did (the CPU was not responsible for anything I mentioned) to show that a new, dedicated scaler chip can yield improvements. What looks better, a 720P image scaled to 1080P or a 1080P image? DUH, the 1080P image. But I am saying that the 720P image scaled to 1080P looks better than a 720P. And yes, algorithms CAN reconstruct SOME of the missing information/pixels. They do it all the time in other fields as well:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/02/researchers-develop-algorithm-to-combat-photo-blur/
Is the new image better than the original? definitely. Is it as good as if the picture had been takin with the proper shutter speed, no movement, and focus? No, but it is better the the blurry one. - BlackKnight6, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I don't know why I was being dugg down so let me rephrase. Having a CPU dedicate some of its processing power to also scale the images being rendered takes away for the potential amount of AI, physics, etc. With the 360 having a scaling chip, the CPU does not have that load and can keep those resources for gaming. If the PS3 had to resort to scaling its games through software then game performance would be impacted and limited. Now the PS3 scaling a DVD is fine, plenty of CPU head room, but if to scale R:FoM from 720P to 1080P takes up more CPU cycles then the game's performance would drop...
Hopefully that was clear enough now. - marcan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7That's still incorrect. You want to compare windows with xbox and xbox360, and then apply a boolean AND to that. (windows != xbox) && (windows != xbox360). The datatype was not specified, so you can't just blindly apply a (boolean or bitwise) OR. In the bitwise sense, there's no telling what will happen, and in the boolean sense you interpret the values as booleans which is likely not what you want. You'll want to compare windows with xbox and windows with xbox360 as whatever datatype they are, and then AND the results.
- BlackKnight6, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@ptaylor
You are a joke. I didn't address your "point" because it wasn't a point. It was you predicting the 360 will be a total failure. From the rest of your rant, you are just another anti-MS guy. Your reference to Bill Gates and use of $ just goes to prove it. What does Bill Gates have anything to do with the ability of the 360 to render?
Read:
http://dpad.gotfrag.com/portal/story/35372/?spage=1
If you are no IT guy, that is for sure. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Trollos, it wasn't a patch, it was a very well guarded secret that they can let out now that the ps3 is out.
Piss off wanker - FourDoor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Ummm... the 360 does upscale SD-DVD movies to up to 1080p via VGA, just not through component based on industry/legal standards. It's not a 360 limitation.
Come back here after the March PS3 firmware update and tell us if the PS3 firmware update lets you upscale SD-DVD movies through component. I'll bet you that the PS3 firmware update will only let upscaling be done via HDMI. ;) - prockcore, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I am an Automaton Nucular Neohuman Android; you may call me ANNA
- EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Upscaling may not be as ideal as running something in its native resolution, but it's a necessary evil. Good upscaling is certainly better than bad or non-existent upscaling when it's required.
- i64X, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Is that why GoW looks heads and tails better than Resistance?
- BlackKnight6, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8@ptaylor
Ok you took EA's quote of only 20% of the PS3 has been utilized. That hurts your credibility right there.
You talk about no HDMI with the 360 and MS already said there is not enough of a market demand for it so they haven't released the cables yet
http://dpad.gotfrag.com/portal/story/35372/?spage=1
Have a read, you obviously are just regurgitating Sony PR bs.
You claim how "great" the PS3 is doing after only 2 months of being out and then compare the reliability of the more than 12 month old 360. Just wait, PS3's will break down very soon, many have little hours of operation due to Ebay sales and so on. We have already seen malfunctioning Blu-ray drives (won't accept any disc) and other issues. Look at PS3's in the store, they are always crashing, that is because they have equivalent hours of operation of a consumer PS3 of more than 4-6 months. Those PS3's play non-stop during the stores operating hours.
There was a bunch of more bs and nonsense and mistakes but I think this is enough for now. - n1ghtw0lf81, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5i find it ironic that sony is punishing early adopters who bought first gen hdtv's... when their primary market right now is early adopters.
- BlackKnight6, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5There are lots of things MS could boast about, like if I was them I would boast the GPU, hands down it is better than the PS3's no contest. Sony seems to talk about each part of the PS3 (hyping) as if to counter the fact that the 360 has equal or better components. Xenon and Xenos were just the code names for the 360 CPU and GPU, never used to advertise like Sony does on TV with their "Cell Broadband Engine" and "RSX-Reality synthesizer". Sony did the same thing with the PS2 and the "Emotion Engine" I believe it was called, ppfff. Just show me some games, and when I mean games not pre-renders with fake, generated HUD overlays.
- dvsbastard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yeah... a patch... Little Xbox gnomes broke into my house to update my hardware while I wasn't looking... :S
I think they stole my underwear too! - Zelgadiss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Cool?
It's a basic scaler. Something Sony for some odd reason forgot to include. - djphatjive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Microsoft is really doing pretty good here lately though. I didn't like them so much in the past. But my xp machine has not crashed in like 2 years. My old win98 machine would crash daily. The XBOX 360 is really a awesome peace of work. The zune is pretty cool too for there first try. There second try will be way better. Think of it as the XBOX. The next will be the 360. And I have never had the since that they lied to me about anything with the XBOX 360. Everything they talked about they have delivered. Sony on the other hand has not. Remember those CG game trailers Sony let out. I don't seam to remember many of those for the Xbox 360. So who doesn't love things that work????
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