What is Digg?128 Comments
- ironeus, on 08/01/2008, -4/+37If you can buy any of those fruits or vegetables at your local farmer's market it will not only save you money but probably taste better too.
- floejoe, on 07/08/2008, -20/+37I used to be a big proponent of organic until I learned a bit more about the topic.
Turns out organic is no better for your health than inorganic and in fact can be more harmful.
For a good complete primer I would consult this guy here: http://skepdic.com/organic.html
This is a molecular biologist's take on organics: http://www.scientificblogging.com/lee_silver/what_ ...
For instance, the reason Organic Milk tastes "different" (and I used to claim "much better") than regular milk is because farmers do not use antibiotics to keep the cows healthy they must pasteurize milk at a far greater temperature than regular milk to kill the bacteria. This, in turn, is what gives organic milk it's "superior" taste, but not the fact that it is organic. Increased mortality rate of cattle and increased cost of higher temperature pasteurization is a cost that is marketed to the consumer as "organic."
If you are a big proponent of organic, I empathize with you and it took me a while to stop rationalizing my organic purchases. At the very least please try to keep an open mind and read the Skeptics Dictionary entry on organic food. - csm888, on 07/08/2008, -2/+14I urge everyone to de-program themselves of the word "SHOULD"
There is nothing you "SHOULD" do, only want you choose to do. (accepting any consequences of your actions). People who use should are trying to impose their values and beliefs on others... - CrimsonBlur, on 07/08/2008, -7/+19First of all, there is no such thing as "inorganic" food (although some processed foods cut it close ;). Second, buying "organic" foods isn't really about the food itself being "healthier" or tasting better (which, contrary to what you say, is often the case), it's about how the food is grown, land use, how the animals are raised, hormones, pesticides, etc.
I think one thing people tend to overlook is the fact that there have been many studies over the years saying this or that chemical or hormone is not harmful, that it's not harmful in small doses. The problem with that is, who is saying that, exactly? Who is funding that research? Plus, these findings are often repealed later with more long-term evidence and research.
In addition to that, there are major concerns about the harm pesticides and chemicals do to the environment, and the farming techniques that non-organic farms use are not sustainable in the long term. It's why so many forests and rain forests are cut down every year, and why so much farm land has to be sold off or abandoned. - captainpugwash, on 07/08/2008, -6/+17I'm not too concerned about the affects of pesticide on my body(I'm immortal) but you should consider the other affects of pesticide, like what it does to the local environment and the poor saps who have to handle the stuff not to mention the super bugs being bred (although if i could get bitten by a super spider........)
- chemosapien, on 07/08/2008, -1/+11Some major fallacies exist in the world of organics, on both sides of the issue. One of the biggest is even trusting that something labeled organic is actually organic. This is especially true for meat and dairy. The EU put bans on beef imports awhile back because they found rBGH in meat that was labeled organic. The USDA still makes absolutely no testing available (or required) for rBGH in organic milk. Just because the manufacturer says it on the label DOES NOT MEAN ITS TRUE.
- Arez16, on 07/07/2008, -6/+14I never thought about some fruits and vegetables containing or being exposed to more pesticides than others. . .this was helpful!
- r3becca, on 07/08/2008, -0/+8I would like to know what methodology or data was used to create this list.
- nuand, on 07/08/2008, -0/+6"superior taste" heh, I'm an American but I was raised as a child somewhere in Europe, my grandma would pretty much milk the cows herself. That was the last time I have tasted real milk (even pasteurized milk has a noticeably different taste). Over the years I've gone from the gold standard down to pretty much knock off milk.
Straight from the cow milk -> Whole pasteurized milk (no real complaints here) -> 2% fat milk -> skin milk (which is pretty much what you get when you water down "milk" from the wrong gender) - inactive, on 07/08/2008, -2/+8I hope you actually do your own research and stuff instead of blindly following that show, because a lot of things they say are *****.
Great show nonetheless. - smacksaw, on 07/08/2008, -2/+8Inorganic food? Like rocks?
- edebolt, on 07/08/2008, -1/+6just a observation. Depending on where something is grown will affect the relative safety of produce. For example in the US onions use very little pesticide etc but here in Thailand where fungus and mold are common then to grow an onion it requires a large amount of fungicide and makes a conventionally grown onion less safe.
- NoDisk, on 07/08/2008, -2/+7While it is true that floejoe made a reference to the taste of an Organic food in his comment, the link responses he provided contradict the contents of the article which, if you’ll take a moment to glance at it, concerns itself entirely with the pesticide level in a given food. The author of the article clearly does not take issue with the prevalence or effect of pesticides on the earth, as evidenced in the first entry:
“Their thick skins that protect the fruit from pesticide build-up.”
Which clearly implies that pesticides are used in this “Safe to buy” product, and makes it clear that the point of the provided information is to avoid consuming it – not to boycott products which are exposed to pesticides.
As for whether the information presented in a given study is worthwhile if it is funded/requested by biased persons, this is an argument that functions in both directions and consequently means very little. Information is either valid or it isn’t.
Most of the sources cited in the Skeptic Dictionary, if you’ll take a moment to glance at it, are clearly objective -- unless one envisions a Vast Pesticide Conspiracy that includes the likes of John Stossel, or the BBC.
As to the question of whether pesticides are harmful or bad, that falls outside the scope of the actual article -- which is quite definitely about health -- and mostly outside the scope of floejoe’s comment, which was about personal reasons for buying and not-buying organic food.
Grandstanding about the evils of traditional agriculture (a valid point, I concede), should have been entered as its own comment, regardless of whether you felt it necessary to point out someone’s technical but comprehensible misuse of the word “inorganic.” Oh, and if you’ll take a moment to glance at the second link, you’ll find that the term “inorganic” is used by the Biology article to refer to non-“Organic” foods. The reuse is therefore easily justifiable. - Murdats, on 07/08/2008, -1/+6you think UHT milk has superior taste? UHT (the process they put organic milk through) is what you save for cases of emergencies when you have run out of real milk.
- raquel9e, on 07/08/2008, -0/+5What's your problem with GM? Other than Monsanto ***** over small farmers, what is wrong with GM?
- headband, on 07/08/2008, -4/+9never buy anything organic....waste of money
- Altotus, on 07/08/2008, -2/+7:) At least with cattle, very little of what they are "pumped" with is actually unnatural. They're natural products, it's the frequency and magnitude of exposure that are different.
Growth hormones in meat are consumed by humans, to be sure. They naturally occur in meat. In injecting hormones into the meat, they do raise the level of hormone, but rarely outside the upper end of the normal range. One of the reasons they can't test for rBGH in cattle is that it's chemically indistinguishable from BGH, and the level within any individual cow still fall within the range that is naturally observed. The only way you can detect its use it to sample a larger population and determine if the distribution of BGH levels in the population is skewed to higher levels.
Most importantly, it has no effect on whether people get fat or not. BGH, if a person was injected with it (in the stomach, it's mostly broken down), would be slightly elevated lean muscle mass -- not fat. No, people are getting fat for three simple reasons: sedentary life-styles, high-calorie diets, and chronic exposure to high amounts of simple sugars.
Don't take my word for it, though, look it up. - eviltandem, on 07/08/2008, -1/+5"Organic" is a market ploy designed to get you to pay more for something than you normally would. That you will pay more for a clearly inferior product is just icing on the cake.
The "organic" farming methods are out-dated and not sustainable long term. Soil erosion is a real problem, and "organic" methods encourage it. - sporg, on 07/08/2008, -0/+4I'm not all that concerned whether something is "organic" but I would prefer that it was grown inside our country so that its not covered with DDT or who knows what else since the use of dangerous pesticides is barely regulated in third world countries.
- inactive, on 07/08/2008, -1/+5Wrong, on all counts.
Its not in any way, shape, or form better for you. It really isnt, get over that myth.
Its far worse for the soil, in many ways. Using animal ***** for a fertilizer is awful for just about everything. The soil, the people that live there, the people that drink the water that comes from there, ect. What do you think organic fertilizer is? It also requires 4x the land to grow the same amount of food, and thats 4x the cow ***** too.
Organic is a myth sold to idiots to get more money out of people that are to stupid to know better. - Altotus, on 07/08/2008, -1/+5Glyphosate (Round-Up is glyphosate with soap added to it) is not a good example. It's an enzymatic behavior for a metabolic pathway (shikimate) which only exists in plants. The surfactants (soap) in formulations are demonstrably far more harmful both to humans and the environment. The surfactants wont generally make it into the plants, though.
I wouldn't worry glyphosate concentrating in the plants. In plants expressing the transgene, the glyphosate will break down into glycine and inorganic phosphate, both of which are readily incorporated into existing metabolic pathways in the plants. Also, if the soil is good, agrobacteria in the soil should similarly metabolize it very quickly, further limiting the availability to the roots. - smacksaw, on 07/08/2008, -2/+6I think the article should have mentioned GM foods as well. For an example, organic corn is nearly impossible to grow, especially at a reasonable price. Factor in the ethanol crap these days. I'd be happy if it was simply not GM.
- Lawrencesss, on 07/08/2008, -0/+4While this article sets some interesting guidelines, It is generally only in regards to the pesticide impact side of the affair.
Take pineapples for example, they are picked green, put into a coldroom and flooded with ethylene gas when it is time to take them to market. This results in an inferior taste and texture in the fruit. I grew up on a pineapple farm and can taste the difference between a naturally ripened pine and a gas ripened. So the organic aspect is not all about health benefits, quality plays a big part. That is not to say there isn't a lot of ***** organic produce out there, but the best organic food will always be better than the best conventionally grown food.
Coming from a farming background I buy organic fresh fruit and vegetables wherever I can. Simply because I know the farmer needs to give a ***** about his crop to turn a profit. - eviltandem, on 07/08/2008, -0/+4You have never eaten unmodified food. We altered all the foods you eat long before you were born. Avoiding genetically modified food is impossible.
Ever eaten a seedless grape or watermelon? Tell me, where do we get more seedless grape trees from? Ever ask yourself that?
Your big problem is you aren't using that meaty substance between your ears, not the ongoing betterment of all our foodstuffs. - anachronaut, on 07/08/2008, -1/+5Around here, a lot of the farmers do use organic practices but don't proclaim their product to be organic as they aren't certified.
Paying $$ for a piece of paper and use of a word isn't cost-effective in an informal environment such as a Farmers' Market where the buyer can simply ask any crop-related questions directly to the producers -- and by the way, if they can't answer your question in complete detail or direct you to a person nearby who can, you need to immediately find another vendor, because the markets are increasingly being polluted by peddlers (wholesalers of retail produce) who have no connection whatsoever to what they're selling.
Maybe in a market where people are more uptight about stuff like that the certification might mean something, but around here it doesn't hold much weight and the local farmers are just looking to keep their costs down. - raquel9e, on 07/08/2008, -0/+4Yes, but vegans don't drink milk either.
- toecutter169, on 07/08/2008, -0/+3Good list for the fruit and veg, but as with everything on the web take it with a grain of salt. Organically raised beef is not necessarily free-range, as implied by that article.
Lately because of higher food prices I've had to forgo getting all-organic veg and have tried to stick to buying locally grown stuff, which is better for the freshness of the food, economy, fuel prices, etc., etc. - terranotterror, on 07/08/2008, -3/+6Buying organic food is not only better for you, and the soil, but it is better for the people who harvest your food. Since most of our food comes from outside the US, where we don't know what the working conditions are like, it's more responsible to your fellow man to increase the demand for food that isn't produced with harmful chemicals. They have to breathe pesticides, herbicides, etc, when they pick your fruit and vegetables. So, think outside yourself and buy organic.
- mookiemoomoo, on 07/08/2008, -7/+10For me organic food is not about taste, it's about not putting pesticides into the soil and pumping livestock full of unnatural chemicals and growth hormones!!
Growth hormones remain in meat and are then consumed by humans, still wondering why so many people are fat..... - inactive, on 07/08/2008, -4/+7I am impressed, you are being dugg up for this.
Not only is organic no better for you, its also far worse for the world. The smaller crop yields drive up food prices, and require more resources to harvest the same amount of food. For as much as digg loves the term sustainable, organic sure isnt it.
Its nothing more than the latest marketing trick to appeal to the uneducated. Humans have been GEing crops since they settled down and started farming eons ago. Corn itself is totally man made. We are just getting better at it now. - inactive, on 07/08/2008, -3/+6I never buy anything "Organic" and I'm still alive. Plus I save a dollar or two every time I buy the regular stuff.
- inactive, on 07/08/2008, -2/+5One of the reasons to buy organic is not that the _outside_ of the plants is sprayed - its that a lot of the spray gets into the soil and _does not_ break down. Contrary to Monsanto's original adverts, Roundup was shown not to break down as much in the soil. So... when its in the soil it gets inside the food, which you then eat. Basically, you're eating roundup and, just like you, the plant is what it eats. The plant may be "Roundup Ready" but I think the inside of my body is not.
- popstation, on 07/08/2008, -6/+9I tried to clean my food from pesticides but it just wasn't the same, pesticides gives it flavor.
- bobsalt1, on 07/08/2008, -1/+4DDT is/was givin an unfair rep. just because it makes bird egg shells thinner doesn't mean it kills people. in fact, DDT use has probably saved millions of lives in africa.
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.23574,filter ...
but after the china wheat taint last year (that killed lots of peopels pets), you might have a damn good point... - duggdowncatisad, on 07/08/2008, -2/+5What if the farmer doesn't actually add any manure him/herself, but an animal comes by and takes a ***** in the field? Is a vegan allowed to eat the food that's grown there? How have all the vegans managed to not starve to death by now?
- shutaro, on 07/08/2008, -0/+3Seconded. I refuse to eat organic food... I only eat minerals.
- sporg, on 07/08/2008, -0/+3I beg to differ because even if something labeled organic was produced using conventional methods products bearing that label usually do not contain high fructose corn syrup,modified corn starch,natural flavoring (msg), and a host of other harmful and unnecessary ingredients. I am referring to packaged goods here obviously.
I will agree however that a many things are labeled organic so they can raise the price 300% for not good reason, it has been become a marketing tool and another way to mislead consumers unfortunately. - 1337chic, on 07/08/2008, -3/+6No, I see how much they eat when they go to McDonalds or some other fast food restaurant 3-5 times a week.
"I'd like a Big Mac combo with a Coke and a McFlurry. Oh make that a Diet"
"Would you like to (insert whatever stupid slogan McDonald's uses to make their combos a ridiculous size) for ** cents"
"Yes"
*Rolls eyes* - raquel9e, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2@ashantik
When a GM plant doesn't do what its creator expects, it can just be disposed of. The same would not be true of genetically modifying human beings. - mookiemoomoo, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2And what does that have to do with an organic diet?? What you are referring to is intensive farming not the expensive, specialised treatment cattle receive that are bred for Kobe beef
- mookiemoomoo, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2Shows what an imbecilic prick you are doesn't it! Local ORGANIC growers don't use pesticides. Plus flying produce from half way around the world because people can't live without strawberries in winter is ***** ridiculous. We should all start living to the seasons and location in which we live
- Lawrencesss, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2Oh, sorry, I thought this was 4chan.
- eviltandem, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2I know when I go shopping for a tomato I try to find the brownest, most bug infested tomato in the bunch.
Apparently hagfish70 does too... - marksven, on 07/08/2008, -2/+4The real point of organic for me has nothing to do with pesticides, but is instead about the nutritional content of the fruit or vegetable produced, and knowing where your food comes from. Non-organic farming uses ammonium nitrate as fertilizer, which is derived from petroleum, instead of using rich soil to feed the plants. An organic apple can contain three times the nutrients as a non-organic apple.
Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" or "In Defense of Food" by Michael Pollan for an eye-opening look at modern farming. In my opinion, it explains how we got to the point where 60% of Americans are obese. - askantik, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2What exactly would you propose to do with all this cow *****? Someone eats the millions of chickens, pigs, and cows and they *****. And they ***** a lot. I don't like ***** on my food either, but I don't eat the meat. My question to you is, if you eat the meat, and you hate the ***** the animals produce... I don't understand what you'd like farmers to do with this *****.
A fundamental principle of basic ecology is that as you move up the food chain, more and more energy is lost. Biofuels and the meat and dairy industry contribute almost entirely to the food crisis. We are taking food that could be eaten by human beings and turning it into fuel and meat, rather than feeding it to people. Some people point this out for biofuels, but rarely do they point it out with meat. But I guess I'm just some flaming liberal vegan who makes up things. That's what people usually say. Whatevz. - eviltandem, on 07/08/2008, -1/+3Which makes it even more ironier, since organic is the one that will force us to keep using pesticides.
You can't buy dumb this pure. - oirvine, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2That isn't all that unhealthy really. The garlic is quite good for you. The cheese is a good source of calcium, protein, and phosphorus. Even the mayo is a good source of vitamin E and the fats and protein would help make you feel full.
Many health-obsessed people are just going on the latest health fad. - inactive, on 07/08/2008, -2/+4Because they eat to much and do to little.
Next easy ***** question to answer? - askantik, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2A huge majority of meat and dairy is not raised organically. Something like more than 90% is "conventional." And yet studies have repeatedly shown that animal agriculture actually worse global warming and pollution-wise than all travel (automobiles, planes, trains, and ships) combined. See "Livestock's Long Shadow" by the UN Food and Agriculture Organization.
- Altotus, on 07/08/2008, -0/+2Manure might be used, but compost is just as likely (perhaps more so). Also, an individual that has a moral stance against slaughtering the animals presumably doesn't have one against keeping them alive long enough to make poop that people are willing pay money for. Dairy cows, for example, generate considerable quantities of manure, and are generally well-cared for -- it's not hard to find dairies that avoid giving cows antibiotics and hormone supplements.
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