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The Huge Hybrid: Few Takers for a New S.U.V. Twist
nytimes.com — Hybrid models of Detroit ’s 5,500-pound S.U.V.’s get better mileage, but consumers have been slow to embrace them. If you are wondering why, ask yourself: Is going from 14 MPG to 20 MPG really doing that much?
BCCStu- 545 diggs
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- BCCStu, on 05/31/2008, -19/+65An amazingly stupid blunder on the part of Detroit automakers. At the time cars should be getting smaller and alternative fuel sources should be resourced, Detroit offers consumers a "staggering" 6 extra MPG.
- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -36/+43I haven't seen many Prius' towing boats.
I haven't seen ANY Prius carrying 4 small kids in the back.
I haven't seen a Prius carrying 6 adults.
I haven't seen a Prius with a horse trailer.
I haven't seen a Prius towing a large camper.
Just because a Prius meets your needs doesn't mean it meets our needs.
If people want to spend money on a vehicle with poor MPG who cares? IT'S THEIR MONEY.
Get out of my wallet and mind your own business.- unpluggedboy, on 05/31/2008, -22/+13Amen. People should be able to drive whatever suits their needs AND wants w/o having douchebags judge them for it.
- iamjames, on 05/31/2008, -5/+8Buick Enclave does all of the things you mentioned and gets high teens city and mid twenties highway.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2006/ ...
Thanks to a 6-speed auto and a 275hp V6. Tows 4500 lbs, seating for 8.
I drove one. Includes a trip computer. Driving around a major city I averaged 21mpg.- antonio97b, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2thats 1mpg more than the story...
- ericthesalmon, on 05/31/2008, -3/+21Nobody's forcing you to do anything, this is all just a conversation that you can choose to ignore, and that you in fact sought out when you clicked the link.
Even though some people need the space in an SUV frequently, most of the people who have bought them in the last 10 years don't, and can get by with a smaller car. The market shows this with the fact that people are buying fewer SUVs and trucks.
For that matter I don't know anyone myself who really needs a pickup for everyday use, it's either a mistake, for mudding or a work vehicle.- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -17/+3Get through you thick libtard head. You don't get to tell me what I need or should buy.
***** You. - antonio97b, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1No, but all diggers do is say they "need to stop..." or "need to make."
- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -17/+3Get through you thick libtard head. You don't get to tell me what I need or should buy.
- dusanmal, on 05/31/2008, -3/+21What percent of Americans have a boat that needs to be towed (miniscule)
What percent of Americans have 4 or more kids (miniscule)
What percent of cars carry 4 or more passengers at the time (here I can answer from my 40000+ miles/year on the road for dozen years: I see one such car/SUV every few months in NYC/tri state area, which is one in 100000 cars roughly estimated)
What percent of Americans have horse (miniscule)
What percent of Americans tow large camper (here again from the real world roads: I see one camper towed maybe every 6 months...).
Prius is not be-it-all but if I want family wagon that does 45+ mpg I can't find one to purchase in the USA. In Europe and Japan I'd have a handful to pick through... Hence, while the miniscule number of people with very unusual needs have tons of choices made by USA car manufacturers, vast majority of Americans who want capable but economic vehicle have almost nothing to satisfy their needs.
Instead of creating sub-100 hp hybrid car/wagon/... capable of carrying 5 people and cargo best suited for most American needs at better than 50 mpg Detroit offers us megalomaniac hybrid SUV's or even worse, "hybrid" sedans that miss the concept completely and use electrical power to deliver more power instead of the economy and savings (say, why Malibu hybrid barely passes 30 mpg/hwy and has worse city mpg vs. hwy? Proper hybrid of that size should deliver us at least 40 mpg city gas mileage.).
Hence the bottom line problem is not only the ineptitude of the Detroit but them forcing us, the ordinary people with ordinary car needs to pick from the range of insanely designed cars. Have your Humvee's but understand that there is a majority of people pissed-off that they can't purchase a proper car they need in a same way you'd be pissed-off if they suddenly stopped selling Humvee's and friends and sold only the Priuses.- ScottishMcDuff, on 05/31/2008, -4/+2"What percent of Americans have horse"
What percent of Americans have moose and squirrel? - leuksho, on 05/31/2008, -1/+1Well I live in Illinois. If you exclude Chicago (where the need for an SUV is pretty much non-existent), the rest of us 'ordinary' people would benefit from a SUV. I don't know where you live, but I can tell you right now, this is not California where sunny weather and 80 degree temps are common.
I would not consider towing a boat or cargo holder an unusual need and the people who do unusual people. - fugazied, on 05/31/2008, -2/+3Fuel prices need to go up in the US, its that simple. You have had an artificial fuel price for years and need to catch up with the rest of the world. Prices need to get to the point that the average american can't justify an SUV unless they have the needs you have. As it stands, people are happy using SUVs in urban environments, with 1-2 people in the car. They should be used when going on hollidays and towing boats etc etc.
- ScottishMcDuff, on 05/31/2008, -4/+2"What percent of Americans have horse"
- S1ngular1ty1, on 05/31/2008, -0/+15Most people with SUVs just use them for shopping. Having a SUV is somehow a status symbol.
- robzthird, on 05/31/2008, -2/+6dumbass Americans and their big cars.
(I'm American btw.) - blackinthmiddle, on 05/31/2008, -2/+3Nowadays, so is having a Prius. Look, here's the bottom line. It doesn't matter what car you buy, you're getting screwed. Why is that? The prius gets 48mpg (if I recall) and costs $20K. Now look at the features of that car. Minus the hybrid part, that's a $13K car!
Let's say your typical car that size gets 28mpg highway. Now let's also say you drive, on average, 25K miles per year. If the Prius has a 15 gallon tank, which is typical for a car that size, you'll need almost 35 fillups a year. 35 fillups at $60 per fillup (15*$4) is $2,100 per year for gas. The 28mpg car, to do 25K miles costs $3,600, or $1,500 more a year. You've gotta drive the Prius five years before starting to make a profit.
Now, yes, your fuel requirements decrease so that's good. But if we're ultimately looking to move off of gas altogether, this is just a band aid. - EtherGnat, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3Regardless of why people own SUVs, hybrids are still a good idea. The submitter questions the value of going from 14 to 20mpg, but that's really the wrong way to look at it. Assume the average person drives 15,000 miles per year.
Switching from an SUV that gets 14MPG to a hybrid that gets 20MPG saves 321 gallons of gas per year.
Switching from a car that gets 30MPG to a hybrid that gets 45MPG saves 167 gallons of gas a year.
Ideally you'd convince people driving SUVs to switch to more practical vehicles, but realistically your biggest energy savings will come from improving the efficiency of the least efficient vehicles. Hybrid SUVs are definitely worthwhile--more so than a Prius even.
- robzthird, on 05/31/2008, -2/+6dumbass Americans and their big cars.
- Soave, on 05/31/2008, -4/+2The bottom line is: if you want a car, buy it. You don't need to have 4 kids or a boat or whatever to buy an SUV. It's ridiculous when people want to control everyone else like this.
- DanMiller, on 06/01/2008, -2/+2You miss the reality of what your purchase represents. For a long time the American idea of excess has permeated almost all areas of our lives. Supersized meals, supersized cars, huge houses, etc. Rather than focusing on what we need we focus on what makes us look important, what status symbol we own. You are right, you can buy any car you want, but your decisions do effect others which means we have a right and interest in what is available in the market place. At the end of the day the market should drive gas guzzlers out of the picture as most people can't afford to fill a 13 mpg car at $7 a gallon. Until then perhaps you should come to grips with the fact that excess is no longer chic in many circles and that your idea of mass consumption for the sake of status is gaudy and irresponsible.
- DanMiller, on 06/01/2008, -2/+2You miss the reality of what your purchase represents. For a long time the American idea of excess has permeated almost all areas of our lives. Supersized meals, supersized cars, huge houses, etc. Rather than focusing on what we need we focus on what makes us look important, what status symbol we own. You are right, you can buy any car you want, but your decisions do effect others which means we have a right and interest in what is available in the market place. At the end of the day the market should drive gas guzzlers out of the picture as most people can't afford to fill a 13 mpg car at $7 a gallon. Until then perhaps you should come to grips with the fact that excess is no longer chic in many circles and that your idea of mass consumption for the sake of status is gaudy and irresponsible.
- S1ngular1ty1, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3Keep thinking that when gas hits $8 a gallon.
- mike17032, on 05/31/2008, -23/+9Thats libtards for ya, always telling others what they should be buying or doing.
- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -13/+6*****-A, well said.
America is completely screwed in the next four years.
Goodbye freedom.- c5kirk, on 05/31/2008, -1/+10That's odd... I don't remember any of the candidates calling to make trucks and SUV's illegal... and I believe we already said goodbye to many of our freedoms years ago... it was called the Patriot Act... you know... that law that everyone had to be for because otherwise you're not a patriot... right?
I agree that people should have freedom to purchase whatever vehicle best fits their needs... but I don't think that either party has a monopoly on stupid policies.
- c5kirk, on 05/31/2008, -1/+10That's odd... I don't remember any of the candidates calling to make trucks and SUV's illegal... and I believe we already said goodbye to many of our freedoms years ago... it was called the Patriot Act... you know... that law that everyone had to be for because otherwise you're not a patriot... right?
- scabbers, on 05/31/2008, -2/+8Yeah and "regime change" in Iraq was minding your own business, I suppose?
- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -13/+2Clueless coward incapable of critical thinking. Must be an Obama supporter.
- mike17032, on 05/31/2008, -4/+2So the libtard point of view is that its ok to take things away from people if its stuff you dont like? Got it.
- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -13/+2Clueless coward incapable of critical thinking. Must be an Obama supporter.
- xexx, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4oh, hey, welcome to society. Can I buy the land right next to your 400k home and pull in my mobile home and sit out on the front lawn in my underwear drinking beer? No? Well that sucks, WHAT HAPPENED TO FREEDOM?
When what you do affects other people in society and what a lot of people do affects the nation as a whole, others do have a right to say. If you don't like being subject to some restrictions, gtfo society and go live with that new brazil tribe shooting bows at planes
- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -13/+6*****-A, well said.
- wrenchone, on 05/31/2008, -10/+8Yeah, you don't see Toyota making a big, heavy, hybrid SUV!
...What's that, they make two? I guess stupidity knows no continental bounds.- Altotus, on 05/31/2008, -0/+7Toyota makes 3 models of hybrid minivans. They don't sell any of them in the USA, however.
- ScottishMcDuff, on 05/31/2008, -0/+5I love how import hybrid snobs seem to forget that each heavy player makes some sort of SUV.
Porsche Cayenne, BMW X5, Toyota Sequoia, Toyota 4Runner, Nissan Armada/Infinity QX56, Honda Pilot and Ridgeline (Which are actually quite decent mpg-wise), and don't even get me started on the Mercedes G-class.
Not to say that I think people shouldn't be allowed to own them. Economically, though, they are starting to make less and less sense. - CC440, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3The Toyota Land Cruiser gets less MPG than a new Tahoe/Yukon, while towing less.
- HappyScrappy, on 05/31/2008, -3/+15It gets 20mpg. My 4 door sedan doesn't get 20mpg.
Plus, the gas mileage went up 50%. That's a ton.- Altotus, on 05/31/2008, -0/+950% more efficient is great. Of course, it's better to get something smaller if you can, but if you've got a rational reason to drive such a behemoth, then more-efficient is more-efficient.
OTOH - More efficient models exist, they simply aren't available in the USA.- inboxnews, on 06/01/2008, -1/+1Why can't I drive what I want? Why do you have to tell me what I can and cannot do?
- tnoy, on 06/01/2008, -1/+1My 16 year-old convertable is getting 5 mpg less than when it was new, and it still gets more than 20mpg in the city.
- HappyScrappy, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Want a cookie?
- inboxnews, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Yippee
- Altotus, on 05/31/2008, -0/+950% more efficient is great. Of course, it's better to get something smaller if you can, but if you've got a rational reason to drive such a behemoth, then more-efficient is more-efficient.
- thedrue, on 05/31/2008, -1/+6Why did cars get so big in the first place? Car models have a habit of ballooning out of control as far as size and efficiency go, look at any model on the road today and then look at that same model when it was introduced, they all went backwards as far as efficiency goes. 4runner, civic. They all became heavier and more gas thirsty, but in my opinion not necessarily better.
- wrenchone, on 05/31/2008, -0/+11Safety regulations and customer demands.
Safety gear adds weight and size, more so weight than size, but it impacts. Mostly though, people just want more for their money. When people buy a new car, they want it to be better than their last one, and for a lot of people, that means bigger, more comfortable interrior. - mike17032, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3Not hard to understand, because thats what people wanted.
- rockefeller2, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2Gosh I hate the new Tacomas because they are approaching the size as an F150. Should have kept them small. I have a 95 and I'm looking for a 2003 or 2004. I think 2005 was the "year of the big one."
- Scruffydan, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1I couldn't agree more. I hate the new Tacomas.
- wrenchone, on 05/31/2008, -0/+11Safety regulations and customer demands.
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -6/+11dumbass. it's not about the hard numbers, it's about the percentage. 20mpg in the city can be up to 50% savings. it might be difficult for you to wrap your feeble mind around this, but there ARE actually people that need to haul ***** around that won't fit in your stupid little compact. it'd be a damn shame if you couldn't get that new environmentally friendly refrigerator or furnace to your little downtown apartment where you live alone less than 5 miles from work because all the vehicles got shrunk down.
- Scruffydan, on 05/31/2008, -0/+9Yes there are... but most SUV drivers don't fit that Catagory.
- DanMiller, on 06/01/2008, -2/+5Dumbass....the vast majority of people who own inefficient SUVs haul the same things as people driving compacts. Look around, the vast majority of SUVs on the road rarely have more occupants than what could comfortably be fit in a sedan. If you want to own an ineffecient gas guzzler at least be honest and recognize it's about vanity and quit trying to pass off owning one as some kind of necessity.
- inboxnews, on 06/01/2008, -3/+1First of all, so what? What is it your business? Who died and made you the Gestapo? Secondly, how do you know what those drivers are doing with their vehicles every second of every day? Try minding your own business.
- Scruffydan, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2"so what?"
The fact that I (and everybody else) have to pay for the externalized costs of you actions, is why I care. Find a way to internalize those costs and I wont care what you drive.
- NtroP, on 05/31/2008, -1/+8Improving MPG from 14 to 20 saves more fuel than improving from 35 MPG to 100 MPG. Do the math. On a 1,000 mile trip the truck will have saved 21 gallons while the econo-car will have saved 18 gallons. Now, it's still better to drive the more economical car if you can, but that's not always practical. This morning I made two trips to the quarry in my pickup for several tons of gravel. My son has a couch he needs hauled this afternoon and tomorrow I'm hauling a load of wood. I own a 10-year-old daily-driver that gets 35 mpg, but it can't do all those things. I'd love to be able to up my truck's milage to 20.
What we really need is a way to retrofit old vehicles like mine to be hybrids at an economical price. I can afford to put an awful lot of gas in my truck for the cost of a new one. Besides, the amount of energy that goes into even building one Prius is more than the extra fuel I'd burn by keeping my old truck running...
Something to think about. - jabberwolf, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1ITS OK GUYS
Less than 2 years away - it wont make a difference
The Volt and batteries from A123 will be changing even the SUV.
Take a look at the AFS Trinity !
- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -36/+43I haven't seen many Prius' towing boats.
- alapoet, on 05/31/2008, -10/+85Detroit has been making bonehead calls for 35+ years now... It's no wonder the Japanese automakers are cleaning their clocks!
- Alix7, on 05/31/2008, -4/+5Touche, my good man
- brad3378, on 05/31/2008, -2/+17Who is to blame?
Consumers for wanting gas guzzlers or Detroit for answering their demands?
One more factor to consider is that if the US government would have taxed energy like other countries decades ago maybe that would have influenced Consumers and Automakers to stick with more efficient vehicles.
Is there any coincidence that politicians blame Oil companies and Automakers but place no part of the blame on their own policies or the decisions of (voting) consumers?- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -5/+9Except that SUV sales are down like 20% over the last year and the are STILL making them, the propaganda is wearing off.
BTW we could have switched much sooner if Libtardtarians hadn't been insisting that auto maker propaganda AUTOMATICALLY equals good just because it was done by a private entity. Hint just because something transpires in the market doesn't automatically mean it's good.
Would a big market in lynching ropes AUTOMATICALLY equal good to you Libtardtarians?
Stop treating the "free market" like it's a God. The free market as perfection is every bit as much as a myth as any religion or spiritual belief is. Everything we do as humans is fallible because in acting we only see a small part of nearly infinitely complex fractal universe. Stop being idiots like the "intelligent design" idiots.
(set rant=off) - tnoy, on 06/01/2008, -1/+3Consumers will buy anything if you tell them they want it.
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -5/+9Except that SUV sales are down like 20% over the last year and the are STILL making them, the propaganda is wearing off.
- crowbar77, on 05/31/2008, -1/+9Consumers want more gas mileage.. lets introduce a new muscle car!
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -2/+1Actually the electric Tesla roadster is very energy efficient and very fast.
- bshensky, on 06/01/2008, -1/+2
I grew up in Detroit and now live in green-leaning Ann Arbor, so sometimes I feel as if I'm looking into Detroit from *just* outside the fishbowl that it is. That said...
I suspect the biggest reason GM pushed to hybrid-ify its SUV fleet was from a cost-benefit standpoint, where the _cost_ amounted to the degree of effort necessary to *package* a hybrid powerplant under the hood, and the _benefit_ was the *percentage* improvement over the standard MPG as many have mentioned here, which the marketing-types love to tout.
The *packaging* aspect cannot be understated. A team of automotive engineers would work less, and with less mental effort, to figure out how to bolt a simplistic hybrid module onto the gargantuan powertrain under that massive Suburban hood.
Lurkers here should read up on the details of Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive transmission. It's far far different, and far more advanced, from the ***** that Detroit is haphazardly throwing at an internal combustion engine hoping it will stick. The thought the Toyota engineers put into their hybrid powerplant would leave GM engineers walking away scratching their heads repeating, "I don't get it."
In the end, with $4/gal at the pumps, GM's truly was the wrong approach, for now obvious reasons - SUV buyers that can afford SUV markups can also afford the gas prices that come with, and lust after engine power over all else. And why Ford hasn't launched an Edge hybrid yet is beyond me - the Edge's market includes left-leaning-but-union-friendly domestic progressives that would seriously dig flaunting their hybrid creds. Personally, I would have traded my Dodge Caravan family-hauler in for one with a hybrid powertrain if one existed 3 years ago (bear in mind that I bought the Caravan as a thoughtful alternative to the then-popular SUVs, to hedge my bets [and wallet] against climbing oil prices).
Detroit was and remains a fishbowl of lazy slob automakers too dumb and complacent to stop dreaming about their coming weekend trip "up north" and start thinking innovative thoughts that might actually help them keep their jobs. - corripio, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1I think it's good that they are making hybrid versions of the large SUVs...people still are buying them, whether they need them or just want them. But yeah, they should also be making hybrid versions of all their vehicles; I'm very disappointed by the hybrid vehicle choices from the American companies. I think the previous post's author is probably correct in terms of why they started with their biggest vehicles first; they are playing catch up and are looking for fast solutions.
Ford seems to be the only American company that has invested in the hybrid technology (both in terms of licensing technology and development); producing a hybrid version of the Escape 4 years ago has turned out to be a really smart move. And unlike the other American companies, they are going in the right direction with hybrid versions of the Edge, Taurus, and Fusion coming out (as opposed to resurrecting the Excursion as a hybrid, which is essentially what GM and Chrysler will be doing).
Just makes me sad that the automakers just don't get it.
- DeathWish808, on 05/31/2008, -15/+11Making a SUV into a hybrid is about as smart as turning a hybrid into a monster truck....?!?! Well, ...you get my point...I hope. :-)
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -6/+4no. you're an idiot. people don't drive their families around in monster trucks. people don't go camping in monster trucks. people don't haul ***** around in monster trucks. it's a step in the right direction.
- DeathWish808, on 05/31/2008, -6/+3lol, no, you are the idiot. You obviously didn't get my point which is pretty simple if you don't try to think about it too hard.....nevermind, you obviously can't think.
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -1/+5if your point is anything other than that making a hybrid SUV is stupid, you really should go take some of those courses in communication that they offer to high school dropouts. your point is that it's stupid. my point is that an over 40% increase is pretty damn good. pull your head out of the sand and realize that not everyone can drive a tiny car.
- DanMiller, on 06/01/2008, -0/+3You have obviously watched far to many Ford commercials. For most SUV owners the furthest offroad their SUV has ever seen is the speedbumps at the grocery store parking lot. Yes, there are those who use an SUV to haul or tow but the vast majority use them as commuter vehicles, last I checked a hybrid sedan does that quite well for much cheaper.
- DeathWish808, on 05/31/2008, -6/+3lol, no, you are the idiot. You obviously didn't get my point which is pretty simple if you don't try to think about it too hard.....nevermind, you obviously can't think.
- ScottishMcDuff, on 05/31/2008, -6/+2You're one of those people that think airplanes are evil because they use fuel, aren't you?
- xexx, on 05/31/2008, -1/+4No, it's pretty damn smart. what's stupid is expecting everyone to buy it just because it gets 6 more MPG. There will always be demands for SUVs and trucks because there's a need for them, and having hybrid SUVs and trucks to fill that demand is a good thing... Overestimating the demand on the other hand is what's stupid.
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -6/+4no. you're an idiot. people don't drive their families around in monster trucks. people don't go camping in monster trucks. people don't haul ***** around in monster trucks. it's a step in the right direction.
- BCCStu, on 05/31/2008, -8/+37Slight spoiler...but any guesses as to where that woman in the picture is from?
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You guessed it: Texas.- sockpuppets, on 05/31/2008, -19/+5Here's a spoiler: you will die alone.
- axisds, on 05/31/2008, -0/+9 “It costs $75 to fill it up, and that’s lasting me two weeks instead of one.”
- feliks2, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3Wow, I didn't know wthe laws of mathematics changed in texas.
- spaceman84, on 05/31/2008, -6/+4You didn't know a 50% increase in fuel efficiency = using half as much gas? Retard. Obviously, you weren't enlightened by the exceptional Texas school system. They don't teach for your brain down there, they teach for your gut.
- feliks2, on 05/31/2008, -0/+6I'm sorry I have to explain this to you, I really am, but a 100% increase in fuel efficiency would mean using half as much gas, not 50%. Please do yourself a favor and get something equivalent to a high school diploma. Although, in Texas that might not mean all that much if all they teach for is the gut.
- sq2shooter, on 05/31/2008, -1/+6I sure hope you are kidding. Lets do the math. Her previous car gets 14mpg and her new one (for arguments sake) gets 50% more mpg at 21mpg. If she drives 200 miles a week she use to use 14.2 gallons but now only uses 9.5 gallons. A 34% reduction in gas use. How is this 50% increase in gas mileage resulting in her using half as much gas? Now who is the retard?
- jaredchambers, on 05/31/2008, -1/+0You know driving habits can effect the fuel economy estimates, right?
- spaceman84, on 06/01/2008, -1/+1Holy *****, you're all retarded. Congratulations on utterly failing at interpreting sarcasm correctly.
- feliks2, on 06/01/2008, -1/+1If that was supposed to be sarcasm, you have a lot of learning to do.
- DuffyDirect, on 05/31/2008, -1/+1probably the Chicago suburbs, actually.
- RainOfTerror, on 05/31/2008, -6/+5Yea, I saw that commercial and roller my eyes, totally retarded move.
- bincoder, on 05/31/2008, -12/+6More the price. $57,000 ??? for that thing??? o.O I would pay that... For a Frigin House. I have an old truck that gets 10 mpg it costs me $0.00 in payments since it was paid for back when Jimmy Carter was president. It gets driven once every few years to pull a camper into the rim country of arizona. For $57000, assuming gas is $10 per gallon, I can drive it 57,000 miles or 5 round trip and inefficient coast to coast tours of the entire United States, or go camping twice a year for the next 75 years. Buying one of these things would be certifiably insane with or without the hybrid part. I bet its made of more plastic than steel too. Now if I could install the generator/regen braking and some storage device (batteries, flywheel or whatever works well) into My truck and get it to 20 mpg city (since hybrid doesn't do much for highway mileage) and spend $2,000 I would jump all over that. Japan is no better. As soon as the US auto industry went downhill in the 70s and then gas went cheap in the 80s they built Big, oversized, V8, Trucks for all the american housewives to get to the store in. Just as bad as Detroit, only worse, because they should have known better. The real problem is that the economy has gone toe-up. I don't see small and useful EVs or hybrids flying off the shelves either. Maybe because they cost as much as a solid gold car plated with diamonds too. I wonder when the ones in the ivory towers will discover nobody is going to pay infinite money on credit anymore for overpriced, plastic, junk.
- Aidje, on 05/31/2008, -2/+6Paragraph breaks are helpful.
- iofthestorm, on 05/31/2008, -2/+5Really? Where the hell do you live where you can get a house for $57,000?
- guyincognitoo, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1My hometown of BInghamton, NY. Average house is $93,000.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/realestate/23nat ...
Thats probably not a good thing though. - splorpdotorg, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2If you're willing to buy a foreclosured property, many places. Try looking under Michigan (not that anyone wants to live there) on this page: http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp
Wait til you get to Detroit and see properties for under $10k.
Or $300.
190311 DETROIT 13931 PREVOST ST , DETROIT , MI 48227 WAYNE SFR MCB MICHIGAN $300
- guyincognitoo, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1My hometown of BInghamton, NY. Average house is $93,000.
- thedrue, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Not everyone can get by with taking their rig out of the garage once every few years. How much do you have to tinker with it to get it to start? How many times have you wondered if you ever would get home?
- qetuo, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2Some old cars can be very reliable, and can be stored for long periods of time, and will start and run with out a problem. I think the persons point was, it is stupid to go out and buy the cars on credit, that are going to cost you a lot to run, when you do not need a large car most of the time. This person probably has a newer smaller car that they use all the time, and on the rare occasion they need a bigger car, they pull this out.
- bincoder, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2It is very reliable, it once had a dead battery in the outback from too much running of the stereo and I got enough juice back in the battery using a bunch of D cells of all things to get it started. That was the closest I came to having to walk out. I replaced the timing chain a few years ago, just in case. Otherwise, just keep the battery charged up, tires inflated, and start it once in awhile. Not even as much work involved as taking out the garbage on thursdays. Its only 34 years old thats not even 'broken in' yet. :)
- qetuo, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2Some old cars can be very reliable, and can be stored for long periods of time, and will start and run with out a problem. I think the persons point was, it is stupid to go out and buy the cars on credit, that are going to cost you a lot to run, when you do not need a large car most of the time. This person probably has a newer smaller car that they use all the time, and on the rare occasion they need a bigger car, they pull this out.
- Dignan666, on 05/31/2008, -1/+6Yeah, but you're redneck.
- feliks2, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2Lots of them swarming around this article.
- bincoder, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2hmmm some road kill and a biodigester. Now theres an idea.
- dimizzz, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Totally agree with you. If you don't use it much, than it's better both for your economy, and for the environment, to keep using the old car.
Lots of people say it's better for the environment to get a new fuel-efficient car, but they fail to take into account the environmental cost of _building_ that car. The equation becomes much more complex then and in many cases, it's more environmentally friendly to just keep using the old one.
- trumpcard, on 05/31/2008, -7/+12Fail.
- Kahnza, on 05/31/2008, -7/+6414 - 20mpg is almost a 50% increase. Now I know 20mpg is still atrocious, but its a step in the right direction.
- thedrue, on 05/31/2008, -4/+6Its not that atrocious for the vehicles they are talking about, my Durango gets 13-14. If it got 20 id be thrilled. Although I still would not want to drive it every day.
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -6/+10No, the right direction is driving a smaller car that gets decent mileage and uses fewer materials and costs less money, leave a smaller footprint on this good earth of ours.
I'm so tired of selfish SUV idiots who think commuting in a 5000 pound behemoth is somehow "safer" or worse yet, hip, cool, trendy, whatever.- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -10/+5*****. i bet you're one of those sickly vegans too that's all in league with PETA. there are some people and lifestyles that don't fit into your perfect little world where everyone drives an electric scooter to work. why? people have kids. people go camping. and boating. and hunting. people haul ***** in their trucks that would crush you and your cute little compact hybrid. get used to it, 'coz it ain't gonna change.
- nogami, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4It "ain't" gonna change hmm?
Wait until it costs $200 a tank to fill up one the big urban assault vehicle / F350 trucks for a few days. I'm willing to bet change will be swift.
Nothing motivates consumers like money... - mrraven200, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2If you really needed a work truck to tow a boat or whatever you'd get a 70s Chevey 3/4 ton 4 wd pickup off ebay for 2000 bucks and ONLY drive it when you needed to tow or haul something big. I've lived in rural Oregon and Northern Michigan and know what time it is with all that.
No, 99% of SUVs are driven by insecure suburbanites whose greatest concern with the vehicle is literally the cup holders.
http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html
Please just be honest or shut the hell up SUV boosters you aren't fooling anyone.
- nogami, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4It "ain't" gonna change hmm?
- DuffyDirect, on 05/31/2008, -4/+2If you have 3 kids, a wife, and enough groceries to feed the american expeditionary force, then a large vehicle would be ideal. Let's not even talk about if you have even more kids.
- JAFFA, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4Then get a people carrier.
- mrgreen4242, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4Meh. You can fit 2 adults, 3 kids (under the age of 12 or so, once they're teenagers you might be limited to 2 kids in the back - but teenagers don't want to go to the grocery store with Mom and Dad anyways) and about 15-20 bags of groceries in a Focus hatchback. And it gets over 30 mpg (I've done as well as 36mpg in mine on a rural highway trip going 55 mph with no stops for about 175 miles - average is about 30 mpg combined cycle, though), and costs about 1/3 of a hybrid SUV with all the features - moon roof, power everything, traction control*, etc etc etc.
* The traction control is great. It makes me feel safer than a big car because it honestly helps out in emergency situations where you are trying to AVOID an accident rather than "survive" after one. - DuffyDirect, on 06/01/2008, -2/+1well that's the point that you "can" do it in a ford escort, but its not ideal. Ideal to me would be me + family having lots of room and comfort, safe large vehicle thatll survive anything but a mac truck, etc.
- mrraven200, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Duffydirect except that your big TIPPY SUV, with poor brakes, and poor accident avoidance isn't really any safer than the average car. Feeling safe and actually being safe are two different things you are being sold an expensive lie, not only expensive for you, but for all of us as gas ratchets up.
Here is a story read it and think please.
I remember driving back from the west coast when I has a Toyota Previa mini van, pretty decent car 4 cylinder, 4 wheel drive, 25 mpg. Anyway the highway was icy and it was blowing snow and I could barely see so I slowed down to 45 which was about what every one was doing. Anyway a big SUV comes whipping around me doing like 80 and I think what a fool. Sure enough about 5 miles down the road the same vehicle was 200 feet off the road on its roof.
The moral of the story is, is that many people rationalize having an SUV to drive on the snow, then drive recklessly, hit a patch of ice which 4 wd doesn't help with, then die.
Please do some research and consider driving a safe and efficient vehicle in a reasonable way, thanks!
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -10/+5*****. i bet you're one of those sickly vegans too that's all in league with PETA. there are some people and lifestyles that don't fit into your perfect little world where everyone drives an electric scooter to work. why? people have kids. people go camping. and boating. and hunting. people haul ***** in their trucks that would crush you and your cute little compact hybrid. get used to it, 'coz it ain't gonna change.
- burketo, on 05/31/2008, -2/+7a very small step. A hybrid vehicle should be able to do 40mpg at least.
The problem here is that they built an S.U.V. and then jimmy rigged it to run on diesel-electric instead of building an efficient hybrid from the ground up. what they should be doing is building a big electric vehicle with a space in the bonnet for what is essentially a diesel generator and then tweaking the whole thing to meet the needs of S.U.V. buyers. by using the plans of a vehicle designed when no-one gave a damn about fuel efficiency the engineers' hands are tied.
essentially they are making the same mistake that microsoft has been making; trying to work around clapped out technology instead of starting again.- DuffyDirect, on 05/31/2008, -4/+1vista was built from the ground up. Xp -- their most successful OS -- was built on NT architecture.
- DontGiveADamn, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4I hope you don't really believe that.
- DuffyDirect, on 06/01/2008, -3/+1i... dont give a damn... either way.
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -1/+5My non hybrid 15 year old Honda civic hatchback gets 32 city, 40 highway, and has enough room that I can do landscaping out of it. Giant hybrid SUV @ 20 mpg = epic fail.
- drifter, on 05/31/2008, -6/+1you drive a honda civic...thats an epic fail.
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -0/+7@drifter
I gave REASONS for why I drive what I do and you responded with ad hominem attack.
Next time try use your brains before responding, instead of just room temperature IQ stuff like "yr a ***** fr drivn' a small car". Really if we are going to survive in the 21st century we are going to have to do MUCH better than that. - DuffyDirect, on 06/01/2008, -4/+1what are you a lawyer? get a life (or a better car) loser. lol.
- mrraven200, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2Duffdirect if "having a life" equals having a big car and not friends, or having created or engineered something great, or family, or a child, or a walk in the woods, who is the loser?
- DuffyDirect, on 05/31/2008, -4/+1vista was built from the ground up. Xp -- their most successful OS -- was built on NT architecture.
- bincoder, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2Very true. If the technology gets to where the majority of energy to stop the vehicle is recovered and reused to get it going again, it doesn't matter about the weight. At that point most of the fuel will be used to overcome wind drag. Modern freight locomotives weigh zillions of tons but still get extremely high fuel economy. The same effect can be done more or less by hypermiling, but peeps don't like to change how they drive.
- mrgreen4242, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2Well, freight trains get a very high miles per gallon per pound. They use a crazy amount of fuel BUT they do so to move tons (and tons and tons) of goods).
- djphatjive, on 05/31/2008, -2/+6To bad Suv sales are down, and a 40,000 dollar SUV now right off the lot is worth only 14,000 at best. No one wants them.
- spiffytech, on 05/31/2008, -2/+2Where's you get 28%? 20-14 = 6 MPG gain, 6/14 = a 43% gain over the original mileage.
- soapsuds, on 06/01/2008, -0/+0It would be better if fuel economy were quoted in terms of consumption rather than mileage, such as "gallons per 100 miles". With MPG numbers, subtracting and referring to "5 MPG improvement" and so forth, is almost meaningless.
Much like other optimizations, it's much more important to improve the worst cases, even if the MPG numbers aren't as "sexy". - flashingcurser, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1They are probably just buying this thing a some sort of status symbol. That said, if they regularly fill all the seats in the vehicle it could be very green. If 7 people are in one vehicle getting 20mpg that would be equal to each driving a single occupant vehicle getting 140 mpg. Something to think about.
- glucoseboy, on 05/31/2008, -4/+11It's nice to see that you can't fool people all the time.
- haentz, on 05/31/2008, -7/+5One can only assume how clever the managers and marketing people felt when they came up with the hybrid SUV "idea"... Of course it's pure stupidity. As european carmakers are late at adopting the hybrid technology, US automakers could make a big leap forward here, if they would build smaller hybrid cars, that actually make sense.
- ScottishMcDuff, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3Newsflash, man, Europe as a whole is more compact and crowded than the U.S.A. Many Europeans don't own cars. Quite a big group own scooters. We can afford to build large, comfortable cars because we have the room to do so. If you think large cars are anything new, go back and look at the 50s and 60s. It's part of the American culture, and if we can preserve it by using new technology then so be it!
- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Plus the fact that every other car sold in Europe is a diesel, which gets 50-100% improvement in fuel economy for the same class vehicle -- they don't need to worry as much about hybrids. They can, but it hasn't necessitated it.
- URnotheonly1, on 05/31/2008, -14/+3Only people who should be paying 4 bucks a gallon are those who voted, petitioned, lobbied to ban domestic oil production. Of course they won't be honest enough to stand behind their activism, so we should subpoena their voting records so that they can pay $4 bucks a gallon and only them
- azpat, on 05/31/2008, -3/+4The price of gas has more to do with the futures market than it does with supply and demand. I live in California during the enron fiasco. They tried to tell us that there was just too much demand and not enough supply, but it was all caused by financial shenanigans. It's the same thing here.
- azpat, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3I'm not just talking out of my ass.
"Friday's price uncertainty reflected an ongoing battle in the oil market between investors who feel prices have risen too far, and those who think global demand and tight supplies justify prices in the $130s — or higher."
The price at the pump is REFLECTIVE of the supply and demand people SPECULATE we will see. It's anything but a direct result.
Further, it's a bubble:
"Andy Lebow, senior vice president at MF Global LLC in New York, said investors are uncertain whether the past week's nearly $10 price decline is a correction in a bull market, or a sign that the bull market has run its course."
Further Still:
"Additional selling pressure came from a Commodity Futures Trading Commission investigation into possible price manipulation in oil futures markets. The CFTC also announced new rules designed to increase transparency of U.S. and international energy futures markets."
Additionally, the weak dollar makes oil -- which is priced in Dollars -- relatively cheaper to Europe than it had been when the dollar was better. So while it's gone up for us, and it's gone up on the scale, the entire scale has moved down for them. It also makes it a hedge.
FTA:
"But the dollar, which fell against the euro and British pound, gave investors reason to buy. Many investors buy commodities such as oil as a hedge against inflation when the greenback weakens. Also, a lower dollar makes oil less expensive to investors overseas."
Arguing that all we need are oil wells in every last bit of nature and refineries in every ***** street corner (not on your side of town, I'm sure) is a gross oversimplification of everything that plays a role in the price of gas.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i5TtajgUpSm7KY5 ...- URnotheonly1, on 05/31/2008, -1/+1Arguing that all we need are oil wells in every last bit of nature and refineries in every ***** street corner (not on your side of town, I'm sure) is a gross oversimplification of everything that plays a role in the price of gas.
Talk about gross oversimplification of the need. "Oil in every bit of nature" why thats just stupid. Just as stupid as when they said that 35 years ago
- URnotheonly1, on 05/31/2008, -1/+1Arguing that all we need are oil wells in every last bit of nature and refineries in every ***** street corner (not on your side of town, I'm sure) is a gross oversimplification of everything that plays a role in the price of gas.
- azpat, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3I'm not just talking out of my ass.
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -2/+7Domestic Oil production will not, cannot fill the gap. You need to give up on your dream of being able to consume as much gas as you want as cheaply as you want.
How ironic you name is, URnottheonly1, as you act like you are the only one who will ever live on this planet. It's like you people don't give a ***** about what you do to the environment. I really don't understand you. At all.
You have me rooting for $8 a gallon, buddy.- URnotheonly1, on 05/31/2008, -4/+2I know you cheer $8 bucks, because you like to Damage your fellow Americans. 35 years of neglect by baby boomers of the energy infrastructure. We should take away your social security to pay for the modernization
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -1/+7I root for $8 a gallon because I have kids, and care about the impact of fossil fuel consumption of their future.
If we had been taxing gas like Europe, rather than trying to live under the illusion of cheap fuel forever, we could have build up a renewable based energy system here years ago.
How about we take your social security to pay for that?
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -1/+7I root for $8 a gallon because I have kids, and care about the impact of fossil fuel consumption of their future.
- URnotheonly1, on 05/31/2008, -4/+2I know you cheer $8 bucks, because you like to Damage your fellow Americans. 35 years of neglect by baby boomers of the energy infrastructure. We should take away your social security to pay for the modernization
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3There is SIX months worth of oil in Alaska dumbass endangering our last true wilderness so some dumbass can drive their giant SUV (because they are insecure about their tiny, tiny penis) to a cubicle job equals epic fail.
- URnotheonly1, on 05/31/2008, -3/+1Beat it punk! you guys have been flinging your BS for decades. Dereliction is your name
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3"The oil is expected to be found on the northern Alaskan coastal plain, but drilling is not expected to start until 2007 at the earliest, taking 10 years to come fully on stream. The US Geological Survey estimates there could be anywhere between 5.6 billion and 16 billion barrels of recoverable oil there, with the most likely amount being 10.4 billion barrels."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/mar/18/scie ...
Where as we consume 20 billion barrels a year so 10 billion barrels equals 6 months.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html
Wake up O'Reilly and Lush Dumball are lying to you and you are their willing tool.
QED - mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2"Is it worth forever losing a national treasure, one of our last great wild places, for a six month supply of oil 10 years from now?" asked Senator Joe Lieberman, one of the refuge's staunchest defenders.
The oil is expected to be found on the northern Alaskan coastal plain, but drilling is not expected to start until 2007 at the earliest, taking 10 years to come fully on stream. The US Geological Survey estimates there could be anywhere between 5.6 billion and 16 billion barrels of recoverable oil there, with the most likely amount being 10.4 billion barrels.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/mar/18/scie ...
Where as we consume 20 billion barrels a year.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html
That's a six months supply. What a shock a right wing neo-con troll spews misinformation AGAIN! - URnotheonly1, on 05/31/2008, -2/+1If it was the main source idiot
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3"The oil is expected to be found on the northern Alaskan coastal plain, but drilling is not expected to start until 2007 at the earliest, taking 10 years to come fully on stream. The US Geological Survey estimates there could be anywhere between 5.6 billion and 16 billion barrels of recoverable oil there, with the most likely amount being 10.4 billion barrels."
- URnotheonly1, on 05/31/2008, -3/+1Beat it punk! you guys have been flinging your BS for decades. Dereliction is your name
- azpat, on 05/31/2008, -3/+4The price of gas has more to do with the futures market than it does with supply and demand. I live in California during the enron fiasco. They tried to tell us that there was just too much demand and not enough supply, but it was all caused by financial shenanigans. It's the same thing here.
- cnot3, on 05/31/2008, -2/+42If only they could build an SUV that ran on the broken dreams.
- Ruger11mcrdpi, on 05/31/2008, -3/+1I love this post. dugg
- OffPiste, on 05/31/2008, -13/+3Isn't that the very definition of a Prius?
I wanted to get a car to meet chicks. I bought a Prius. A Prius is so ugly even gay men won't look at me.
My dream is crushed.- toppgun, on 05/31/2008, -0/+9maybe you just suck at picking up chicks.
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -0/+6You can't pick up chicks because you or a moron and a dumbass!
- SammyJr, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2If you need a specific car to meet women, then you suck. I never had a problem getting a date and I drove a Chevy Cavalier.
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3Best comment EVER dugg!
- nubi78, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1I have seen many comments posted on digg, but this one has got to be the best I have seen to date.
- surfslider, on 05/31/2008, -14/+0a hybrid usually has 40+ mpg
http://tinyurl.com/5g5g2o - lisaawesome, on 05/31/2008, -10/+5What a joke.
- BradMajors, on 05/31/2008, -12/+18Making SUV's hybrids gas guzzlers makes more sense than making already fuel efficient cars hybirds because the gas savings with SUV's will be much greater. GM has finally done something right. Increasing MPG by 50% from 14 to 20 is a huge improvement.
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -3/+8Yay, I'm commuting at *only* 20mpg. Granted I could have been getting 40mpg in a Honda, but whatever.
- S1ngular1ty1, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2Except you'll never earn back the price difference of the hybrid on gas savings.
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -2/+2then buy a honda and quit bitching at everyone else. *****, you people are worse than all the religious folks everyone seems to hate here.
- qetuo, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3I could never understand driving around in a car that only does 20mpg, our Honda from the early 90's does at least 35mpg, and is a large 4 door car, that is very comfortable inside. More than big enough for most peoples needs, and has excellent pick up.
A lot of the time i have to drive to a city an hour away, our Honda only normally has half a tank of petrol in it. The Honda can do a round trip including city driving with a good amount of petrol left. (From half a tank) I have went twice in a modern Mercedes SUV, the same distance, and have had to re-fuel on the way back. From a full tank, and the SUVs tank holds a lot more petrol. You just have to ask your self, why are people driving around in a car that consumes so much fuel?
- mrgreen4242, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3You are spot on with this. Someone who buys a small car that gets 30-40mpg who, given the option of a hybrid that costs the same, wouldn't buy a bigger car that got the same mileage - they'd buy a similar sized car that gets even better mileage. Same goes for an SUV/truck buyer, the other way.
Taking an economy car from 30 to 45 mpg is actually LESS helpful overall than taking an SUV from 15 to 20 mpg. Here's the math that proves it.
An average driver per year goes around 15,000 miles.
@ 30 mpg = 500 gallons
@ 45 mpg = 333 1/3 gallons (saves 166 gallons of gas)
@ 15 mpg = 1000 gallons
@ 20 mpg = 750 gallons (saves 250 gallons)
Now, of course, ideally everyone would drive a car that gets 45+ mpg but as mentioned above, people are likely to buy the most attractive (in the example, efficiency = attractiveness) car IN A GIVEN class, so it's not really all that helpful to compare a 15mpg SUV to a 45mpg hybrid coupe.- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1If you want to play the numbers game, and you're talking about how the person buying the small car that goes from 30 mpg to 45 mpg saving less fuel than the person who buys the SUV that goes from 15 mpg to 20 mpg...then what of the comparison if the same person were to buy the small car instead of the SUV???
By your numbers, they'd save anywhere from 416 2/3 to 500 gallons!
That's like 3 small cars worth or two SUVs!!! How's that for playing the numbers game.
Reality is this -- if you're dumb enough to get a SUV with gas prices at $4/gal, hybrid or not, and you haven't gotten yourself castrated -- quit bitching about the gas prices. And stop screwing the rest of us over with your overzealous compensation.- mrgreen4242, on 06/03/2008, -0/+1If you actually read the comment, I address this. People have various reasons for buying what car they do. The person buying a Suburban is not likely to suddenly decide that a Prius is a suitable replacement for that car. They might decide that a hybrid Escape will do though.
The comments I was responding to were people who said, more or less, "why bother making a hybrid SUV that ONLY gets 20mpg". There's a market and a need for cars like this and selling more of them will make a dramatic impact in the overall fuel consumption and thereby fuel prices. I even ending with saying that "ideally everyone would drive a car that gets 45+ mpg", but that's just an extremely unlikely thing to happen.
Manufactures need to get economy up across all lines of vehicles and people who complain about applying innovation to all models of cars and trucks are doing more to hurt than help.
- mrgreen4242, on 06/03/2008, -0/+1If you actually read the comment, I address this. People have various reasons for buying what car they do. The person buying a Suburban is not likely to suddenly decide that a Prius is a suitable replacement for that car. They might decide that a hybrid Escape will do though.
- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1If you want to play the numbers game, and you're talking about how the person buying the small car that goes from 30 mpg to 45 mpg saving less fuel than the person who buys the SUV that goes from 15 mpg to 20 mpg...then what of the comparison if the same person were to buy the small car instead of the SUV???
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -3/+8Yay, I'm commuting at *only* 20mpg. Granted I could have been getting 40mpg in a Honda, but whatever.
- UltramegaOK, on 05/31/2008, -8/+22A Hybrid sticker is a status symbol. You can pretend that you care about the environment without changing your lifestyle.
- DanMiller, on 06/01/2008, -1/+5I don't really see how caring about the environment has to have anything to do with it. Filling up once a month with a Prius seems like a pretty good deal.
- Ruger11mcrdpi, on 05/31/2008, -3/+42What's hilarious, is if this family bought a $30,000 minivan, they'd be happy, get 20mpg, and save $17,000, they'd also have more storage space.
I just traded my 13 MPG truck in last week and bought a 29 MPG Civic SI. I didn't even look back. MY payments went down $30 a month and I am saving about $180 a month in gas- Gryffydd, on 05/31/2008, -10/+4Just wait till you need to haul that new bookcase you bought home....or pull a boat...or any of the other thousands of things a truck can do that a Civic can't. Maybe that won't be a problem for you, and that's great.
- LRoy12, on 05/31/2008, -2/+15just rent a uhaul or get it delivered. Since he is saving $180 a month I am sure spending 60$ on a uhaul wouldn't hurt
- linagee, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3$20 on uhaul. Find a better deal.
- ohcoaster, on 05/31/2008, -1/+8by your logic we should all be driving cube vans, for the few times we actually need one.
- linagee, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4Maybe some day I'll need to move a NASA space shuttle. Better drive that giant crawler thing that moves it. I think it gets like 0.1 mpg or something if I remember correctly.
- SammyJr, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2Most stores offer delivery for a very reasonable price.
- Ruger11mcrdpi, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1That's the mentality I had before, and the reason I never sold my truck until last week. I just got fed up. The only thing I really needed the truck for was once a month or so to haul the dog in, and I've got an old 1995 Jeep wrangler thats 100% paid for, still gets about 19mpg to do that... I drive it like once a week to keep the tires round and engine running.
- DjSandman87, on 06/03/2008, -0/+1Just wait til you have to fill up that damn boat or RV....Morons...
- LRoy12, on 05/31/2008, -2/+15just rent a uhaul or get it delivered. Since he is saving $180 a month I am sure spending 60$ on a uhaul wouldn't hurt
- richiewrt, on 05/31/2008, -0/+8I traded also, got rid of a GMC sonoma that gor about 13 mpg for a honda accord that gets 30. Man what a difference that makes. I can now go almost 400 miles before filling up instead of 240 on the same amount of gas.
- Ruger11mcrdpi, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2It sure is nice on road trips now too... stopping so much less.
- rockefeller2, on 05/31/2008, -1/+5I just parked my 19mpg Tacoma and started riding my bike 21 miles each way to work. I didn't even look back. I can haul the bookcase and pull a boat when I need to.
*****, I hope I don't get run over.- linagee, on 05/31/2008, -1/+4Call up your city officials and tell them to make the roads safer for bicyclists. Leave the implementation up to them. (Lower speed limits, more cops, license plate recognition ticket writing machines, etc.)
- Ruger11mcrdpi, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1A 2006 Tacoma is what I sold. Turns out when you put a lift kit and 33"x12.5" BFG A/Ts on the truck, that 19mpg turns to 13 mpg. haha oh well. BTW it's a well made truck but with the sagging leaf problems and all it's a pretty poor hauler any way.
- Gryffydd, on 05/31/2008, -10/+4Just wait till you need to haul that new bookcase you bought home....or pull a boat...or any of the other thousands of things a truck can do that a Civic can't. Maybe that won't be a problem for you, and that's great.
- Aidje, on 05/31/2008, -1/+23“It costs $75 to fill it up, and that’s lasting me two weeks instead of one.”
How does a 40% increase in mileage translate to a 100% increase in how long a tank of gas lasts? Am I missing something?- fallingstars, on 05/31/2008, -2/+5Mileage depends on driving habits. Even more so for a hybrid. It's possible that this person does a lot of stop-and-go driving where a hybrid really shines. At low speeds, the gas engine doesn't even run (on the Toyota-style powerplant, at least) which results in huge fuel savings. On the highway where both engines are working all the time, the savings are more modest.
- S1ngular1ty1, on 05/31/2008, -3/+1An electric motor isn't an "engine."
- fallingstars, on 05/31/2008, -2/+5Mileage depends on driving habits. Even more so for a hybrid. It's possible that this person does a lot of stop-and-go driving where a hybrid really shines. At low speeds, the gas engine doesn't even run (on the Toyota-style powerplant, at least) which results in huge fuel savings. On the highway where both engines are working all the time, the savings are more modest.
- twiztidsinz, on 05/31/2008, -6/+19"Is going from 14 MPG to 20 MPG really doing that much?"
It's an increase of 42.85%... so, yeah I'd say that it is doing much.- zephc, on 05/31/2008, -3/+20That's like curling 4 lbs weights instead of 3 lbs - it still doesn't make you a strongman.
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -3/+1and what was the percentage increase from say, a prius compared to a comparable non-hybrid car? twenty to thirty percent? *****, the way you were talking i'da thought it'd be like, 75%. keep your mouth shut next time
- CC440, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2More like 0 to worse MPG. You would be hard pressed to find a single diesel car with a sub 3.0l engine that doesn't get better highway mileage than a Prius.
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -3/+1and what was the percentage increase from say, a prius compared to a comparable non-hybrid car? twenty to thirty percent? *****, the way you were talking i'da thought it'd be like, 75%. keep your mouth shut next time
- zephc, on 05/31/2008, -3/+20That's like curling 4 lbs weights instead of 3 lbs - it still doesn't make you a strongman.
- kookbutt, on 05/31/2008, -2/+16I drive a Toyota Prius during the week for my daily commute but I still need a truck on weekends to tow my horse trailer or boat. I am looking for a pickup truck hybrid with power enough to tow those things. Yes, I know it won't get the same MPG as smaller lighter vehicles but smaller lighter vehicles can't tow a horse trailer with two horses either. But I would still like to see higher gas mileage on trucks. I know the technology is out there. Hopefully, the Chevy Silverado Hybrid that is coming out will use some of it. BTW I think Tahoes and Yukons are just soccer mom grocery getters and not real trucks.
- wrenchone, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2Why are you waiting for a hybrid truck? Buy a diesel truck! You'll get better gas millage, more towing power, and it will cost ALOT less than a hybrid will.
- huggybarrel, on 05/31/2008, -1/+7have you seen the price of diesel lately?
- kookbutt, on 05/31/2008, -2/+1I am considering a diesel truck probably a Ram 2500 and putting a biodiesel converter kit on it. I'm just saving up the money to get a new truck and waiting to see what comes out in the way of hybrids so I can compare.
- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2If you want a diesel electric hybrid truck -- you'll probably have to buy the diesel yourself and then find a company that will do the retrofitting for you. It's not going to come from OEM. At least not "drive American" OEM...cuz...well..they just don't believe in giving customers what customers want -- and instead would rather shove crap down your throats instead.
Go America. And now Americans are pissed because everybody else is wayyy ahead of them and they're pissed twice cuz they have very little to show for it in the way of a solution (once again, opting for the short term rather than having the foresight for a long-term fixed) and they're being beaten, HARD, in their own game. And considering that I believe Toyota has already made the announcement that either by 2009 or 2012 that their entire product line will have a hybrid option -- using a tried, tested, and true and reliable hybrid technology that they've been working on for the past 15+_years, there's NO way that GM would be able to compete with that -- not without stepping on some people's toes.
Nevermind that the public is paying the ultimate price, they're more worried about the less than 1% of people that they might step on instead. The public has spoken. And Toyota's #1.
- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2If you want a diesel electric hybrid truck -- you'll probably have to buy the diesel yourself and then find a company that will do the retrofitting for you. It's not going to come from OEM. At least not "drive American" OEM...cuz...well..they just don't believe in giving customers what customers want -- and instead would rather shove crap down your throats instead.
- fallingstars, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3If you have space for horses and a trailer, you have space for a diesel storage tank. Get a diesel truck and fuel it with locally-produced biodiesel. Yes, retail costs (at the gas station) are through the roof, but you can bypass that by buying in bulk and storing it. It's well worth it, if you have the space.
- kookbutt, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Yes I have the space. I have considered a diesel truck with a biodiesel converter kit on it. I'm just waiting to see what the hybrid trucks have to offer. Since I only use a truck occasionally on weekends, this purchase is not high on my list of things to do right away. That and I am still saving up the money to buy a new truck because I don't want to buy it with a loan or on credit which is a waste of money.
I am considering a 200 gallon storage tank and setting up a little biodiesel manufacturing set up for making some homemade biodiesel. The closest place to get biodiesel for me is 60 miles away.
- kookbutt, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Yes I have the space. I have considered a diesel truck with a biodiesel converter kit on it. I'm just waiting to see what the hybrid trucks have to offer. Since I only use a truck occasionally on weekends, this purchase is not high on my list of things to do right away. That and I am still saving up the money to buy a new truck because I don't want to buy it with a loan or on credit which is a waste of money.
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -2/+1Now this is a legit purpose for the hybrid SUV. Of course, you might consider just getting a diesel instead...
- cr42yr1ch, on 05/31/2008, -7/+0or try not buying "trucks" horses and boats, im sure people could use that money for, like, food.
- kookbutt, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4I make the food *****. I work on my parent's farm as well as being a Civil Engineer specializing in Water Resources.
- rockefeller2, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2You make food out of horses?
- richiewrt, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2and maybe you shouldn't buy a computer since it uses power. People still have to have a life. The key is to have that life with as little impact on the environment as possible.
- kookbutt, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4I make the food *****. I work on my parent's farm as well as being a Civil Engineer specializing in Water Resources.
- DuffyDirect, on 05/31/2008, -2/+1just buy a normal truck.
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -0/+8Ride the horse. problem solved.
- wrenchone, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2Why are you waiting for a hybrid truck? Buy a diesel truck! You'll get better gas millage, more towing power, and it will cost ALOT less than a hybrid will.
- smartmlp, on 05/31/2008, -4/+27I think some of you guys are missing the point. There are some people who actually need these things, and getting 22MPG (ratings are 21/22, and on many hybrid forums they are reporting much better numbers) in a vehicle that can carry 8 people and tow 6500 pounds is incredibly useful. Although it is expensive, and yes alot of people buy them that dont need them, but for those that do its a great idea. Regardless of what you think, there are people who need these things because of where they live, their family conditions or a job. You also need to think about the increase this provides to cash savings. Going from 14MPG to 21MPG is a large leap that is actually larger than going from 32MPG to 45MPG that you see in a regular car going hybrid.
- feliks2, on 05/31/2008, -2/+7In case you didn't know, hybrid forums are filled with psychotic idiots who pretend to know a lot, but have probably never even considered buying a small diesel car.
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -0/+14Sure, but what percent of users actually need these things? I can tell you right now, judging from the commuters I see on the roads, a ***** of people are driving these tanks for no good reason.
- S1ngular1ty1, on 05/31/2008, -0/+11You won't be getting 21/22 mpg while you are towing anything. Most people who have SUVs hardly ever use them for anything besides going shopping.
- DuffyDirect, on 05/31/2008, -4/+1If you live anywhere north of Virginia in a suburb or countryside without effective snow removal, owning a truck/suv is perfectly reasonable. I live in new york and the lake effect snow makes an awd vehicle absoluely necessary. they have cars and station wagons with 4wd, but they just dont cut it compared to a solid v8 engine, big wheels, and heavy weight.
- feliks2, on 05/31/2008, -0/+9OK DuffyDirect, explain to me how a V8 engine is anything but useless in the snow? Also, I live in Michigan and drive a fwd car in the snow (and have driven rwd), and as long you aren't a complete idiot you'll be fine.
- DuffyDirect, on 06/01/2008, -1/+1V8 engines allow me to climb adirondack passes and escape snowbanks in the middle of a blizzard while japanese sedans are trapped in ditches.
thats lovely that you can handle michigan winters in your fwd car, unfortunately, it doesn't change the fact that 4 moving wheels perform better on winter roads than 2... all youre giving me here is anectodal "proof" that youre right and im wrong and that doesnt really mean anything to me. - S1ngular1ty1, on 06/01/2008, -0/+3That's nice that you actually use an SUV for what is intended for. But the majority of people don't, and that is the problem.
- itsthemechanic, on 06/01/2008, -0/+3I'm sure any Audi Quattro or Subaru 4WD would be just as good in the winter.. and better on gas.
- feliks2, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Climbing snowy mountains would be the same thing in a v8 as in a 4 cylinder engine, provided the rest of the car would be the same. I mean, do you floor your ***** car on the snow? If you do, I'm sure you know the wheels just spin out, making for worse progress. If you don't know that I don't think you've ever driven a car. Anywhere. And yeah of course 4wd is better on snow, and in many cases off snow, but you don't need an SUV to have all four wheels driven. You can use anything from a Subaru to a Chrysler to a BMW to get 4 wheel drive. I am perfectly sure all you need an SUV for is to feed your outrageously inflated ego.
- S1ngular1ty1, on 05/31/2008, -0/+11You won't be getting 21/22 mpg while you are towing anything. Most people who have SUVs hardly ever use them for anything besides going shopping.
- elmuerte17, on 05/31/2008, -1/+1finally... someone who gets it.
- steviesteveo, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2You'll never get 22MPG out of a hybrid SUV that even the company markets as capable of 20MPG while it's towing 6.5 tons. Not without a huge hill. Towing is one of the worst things you can do for fuel efficiency.
That said, if it needs towed and it weighs 6 tons you've not got much choice and at least you're trying to save petrol and be green. $4000 is a bit steep for that little bit of greeness though, you should expect to get $4000 worth of green savings for that at the least.- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1"towing 6.5 tons" wow...that's quite a bit...13,000 lbs!!!
Get an International or Cummins or a Volvo or even a Kenworth. Not an SUV!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton
And why the heck would you need to tow 3.25 tons anyways? Get a RV. Sadly, you won't be too far off from the fuel economy standpoint anyways. AND you can have someone retrofit it into a gas turbine electric hybrid for optimial efficiency. Then you can pump diesel in it if you run out of kerosene. :oP
Unless you're chauffeuring your 8 passengers, and 6500 lbs worth of stuff daily, otherwise; for the other 99% of the year you're driving that thing -- you don't need it!
(Does she LOOK like the one to be hauling 8 passenger and 6500 pounds? Daily? I don't think so!)- steviesteveo, on 06/02/2008, -0/+1That's the metric tonne confusing me, my mind's worked in kilos since before I started school. 1000kg = 1 tonne.
Still, 3.25 tons is still a massive amount of weight. There's no doubting that the hybrid SUVs are amazingly powerful and if you need that sort of power you're going to have to burn a lot of fuel - it's just physics. The very very small market that use an SUV to their limits are never going to be able to use solar cars etc.
22MPG is hopeful while towing and in a world where you have vehicles that need three digit displays to show their mileage it's just not particularly green. If you don't need a car with 8 or more seats, get something smaller.
- steviesteveo, on 06/02/2008, -0/+1That's the metric tonne confusing me, my mind's worked in kilos since before I started school. 1000kg = 1 tonne.
- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1"towing 6.5 tons" wow...that's quite a bit...13,000 lbs!!!
- blacktriangle, on 05/31/2008, -3/+6Nobody needs one of these monstrosities. They are pseudoluxury mutations filled with non utility bulk. You can tow a trailer with a Toyota truck that gets 25 MPG while towing.
- JAFFA, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Absolutely spot on!
- CC440, on 05/31/2008, -1/+3And what mysterious Toyota truck is this? Could it be we have somebody blinded by Toyotas green marketing. Do they know that the Tundra gets the worst real life mileage of any full size truck. Could they know that a Ranger or Colorado (GASP!?!? An American vehicle) could get better mileage than a Tacoma. Maybe he just doesn't realize that although a minivan "can" tow 4000lbs it will be about to explode if you do. A Silverado can tow 5000 lbs every day of its life and never show any significant extra wear.
- superkendall, on 05/31/2008, -1/+9Look, if you need an SUV that milage increase would be welcome. As another poster noted though, the price increase is way beyond where most people would consider paying more for just that, and on top of that in reviews I have read the basic car is not that great either.
If you get the actual car part right people are willing to cut you some slack and spend a little more to help reduce emissions and increase milage (remember using a hybrid is as much about emission reduction as it is better milage!). But this car did not the car part right, and so people stay away...
People laugh but in more rural places, sometimes yes you really do need an SUV. Why not try to make them better as well?- iofthestorm, on 05/31/2008, -0/+9I think the people who are laughing are used to seeing suburban moms driving freaking Escalades and such to the grocery store. There are uses for SUVs, but most of America doesn't need them.
- qetuo, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3I always think that, there are uses for SUVs but most people do not have a use for theme. If you need a larger car, than an 4 door normal car, buy an estate.
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3People laugh but in more rural places, sometimes yes you really do need an SUV. Why not try to make them better as well?
Old truck with a 6 banger and better mileage for the win. Oh you mean you wanted to drive 90 and look "stylish" to the neighbors why didn't you say so upfront? - pinguwin, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4I've lived in a more rural in area than 99.99% people. 20 miles to town of 800, 37 miles to town of 8000k. The dirt road was snow and ice from later november until mid april. Even then, a car was fine, no 4wd was needed, just drive carefully. Yes, occasionally I had to wait for the road to be plowed. More to the point of rural people needing an SUV. Hybrids are actually less efficient on highways than gas motors. If most of your driving is on highways, a hybrid does nothing. It's from the regenerative braking where the efficiencies are gained. So having a hybrid suv in rural areas is pretty silly.
- iofthestorm, on 05/31/2008, -0/+9I think the people who are laughing are used to seeing suburban moms driving freaking Escalades and such to the grocery store. There are uses for SUVs, but most of America doesn't need them.
- rolf, on 05/31/2008, -1/+9We desperately need small diesel cars in the USA. They get better mileage than many hybrids while being better for the environment in most cases (no huge amount of batteries and all the baggage that comes with that). Also, most of the alternative fuels run in diesel engines (except ethanol, I believe, which is a crap solution anyway).
VW had an awesome small diesel in the up to the late 90s, I think they have or will bring it back (not into cars that much). I had hope for Honda bringing out small diesels here, something like this Civic but an even smaller engine (this diesel seems to be the counterpart to the gasoline Si):
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52 ...
But it seems Honda thinks the US will only want diesels in the premium brand (Acura) or the bigger cars.
(Now, a hybrid with a stirling engine might be the best of both worlds too.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine#Appli ...- motorhead9999, on 05/31/2008, -1/+0California emissions baby....the death knell of diesel
- allaboutdatiki, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3Or not. The new 50 state legal clean diesels will start arriving here in the states this summer and fall.
- CC440, on 05/31/2008, -1/+1Or we could take a 5% hit in emissions to burn 30% less fuel as a country. That works out to a 25% net gain in emissions. ***** you California.
- HappyScrappy, on 05/31/2008, -2/+1Hybrids get better mpg than Diesel in equivalent sized and powered cars. And the fuel is much cheaper.
- Lukesed, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1What, exactly, prevents auto manufacturers from putting an electric motor, battery, etc. next to a diesel motor instead of a gasoline one?
- burningmanstan, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Price. Both the diesel and the hybrid technology add cost to the production of the vehicle. Many people won't be willing to pay for that much of a price increase.
BTW there are some clean diesel cars that get very good gas mileage, comparable to hybrids. The WV Jetta TDI should arrive in the US and may get close to 50mpg. - HappyScrappy, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Jetta is official. It gets 41mpg highway, 34 combined.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008car1tablef.jsp? ...
With Diesel costing so much, 41mpg isn't enough.
And by the way, the Prius gets higher mpg and costs less and the fuel costs less.
- burningmanstan, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Price. Both the diesel and the hybrid technology add cost to the production of the vehicle. Many people won't be willing to pay for that much of a price increase.
- Lukesed, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1What, exactly, prevents auto manufacturers from putting an electric motor, battery, etc. next to a diesel motor instead of a gasoline one?
- smartmlp, on 05/31/2008, -1/+1I keep hearing this, but diesel is not the angel that will save us all people think it is. Reasons why:
1) Diesel engines are a premium cost. They are generally $5000+ options over the gas cars because they take more to produce.
2) Fuel cost. Diesel is currently $5.07 where I am, while gas is $4.15. This is partially offsetted by the increased fuel efficiency, for example the new 2009 Volkswagen Jeta:
2L Turbo Gas: 21/31; Cost to drive 200 Miles: $33.20
Diesel: 30/41; Cost to drive 200 Miles: $29.82
This means you are saving roughly $4 every 200 miles, or roughly $4,000 over 200,000 mile vehicle life. Keep in mind this is yet to overcome the additional cost involved to purchase the Diesel in the first place and does not even account for the higher cost of maintenance. Yes, it costs more to maintain a diesel especially now that they have all the special equipment to make them clean air compliant. Another thing to keep in mind is diesel cost. There are more diesel vehicles in the US now than there was before and one of the reasons why the cost is so high. The more diesels there are, the higher the cost is going to get due to supply and demand.
3) Power loss. With these small diesel engines, acceleration is slow at best. Even if the engine manages to put out the same power, you have to keep in mind that the gas engine is lighter in comparison since its made out of aluminum and that means it will win 1v1.- allaboutdatiki, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2You might have a different opinion if you try driving the current crop of Euro diesels and do the math. I have. :)
Check the numbers again ... - smartmlp, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2Please show me your numbers. These are based on the 2009 Volkswagen Jetta Diesel numbers.
- allaboutdatiki, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Has VW released the US TDI mileage figures? I have not been able to locate them.
In the UK, the BlueMotion diesel Jetta is rated at 47.9 urban / 72.4 extra urban / 61.4 combined ...
Converting the UK gallons to US gallons, comes up with roughly 39.9 city / 60.3 highway / 51.1 combined ...
Rather impressive numbers, eh?
- allaboutdatiki, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Has VW released the US TDI mileage figures? I have not been able to locate them.
- burningmanstan, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2Higher diesel prices mean biodiesel becomes more competitive and its definitely the most viable biomass fuel. Diesel already went past the price needed to make algae biodiesel competitive, according to the Department of Energy Aquatic species program . We'll just have to see it algae biodiesel can compensate for demand in the next few years.
- allaboutdatiki, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2You might have a different opinion if you try driving the current crop of Euro diesels and do the math. I have. :)
- funk49, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4What we need are diesel/LPG combo cars. It's common in the UK and drastically increases MPG for the Brits that are paying $9 USD a gallon. Diesels won't pass smog in CA, the US hasn't built refineries since the 70's, we won't drill anywhere in the US for oil and to top it off, the futures traders are completely driving the prices thru the roof. This whole oil problem is just idiotic...
- utahnkid, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Nothing is stopping anyone from going out and buying a Smart Car. The fact is very few people are willing to make that kind of sacrifice and the demand remains low; even with $4 gas.
- motorhead9999, on 05/31/2008, -1/+0California emissions baby....the death knell of diesel
- aaeyers, on 05/31/2008, -2/+15I don't understand why people think making a hybrid SUV is a bad idea. Its better than a normal SUV, and not everyone lives in CA or wherever; there are places that have *gasp* real weather, and where you need something with 4 wheel drive and some weight just to get around. There is a reason that SUVs sell, they can do things a small car simply can't do.
- iofthestorm, on 05/31/2008, -0/+14Well, when you see people IN California driving SUVs to the grocery store or to school, it gets a little ridiculous. The local high school parking lot is practically full of SUVs, and those are high school students driving those, and they definitely do NOT need SUVs.
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -1/+7You know, my grandfather was a farmer on a old country road miles from any town all his life, and only drove a truck when hauling fed or farm equipment. He owned and drove rear wheel drive cars all the time. You can't sell me on this ***** line of how rural people *need* SUVs. I call B.S.
Now the 1% of Americans who are farmers might benefit from better gas mileage for the time they need to drive those Trucks, but they are not GM's target demographic, I think.- aaeyers, on 05/31/2008, -5/+0Who said anything about rural farmers? I'm talking about 30+ inches of snow, when there is snow on the ground for 6 months out of the year. When you need a tall car just to be visible over the snow banks, and need 4 wheel drive just to get up a driveway. And that is in the city.
- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -0/+5Ever heard of 4 wheel drive Subaru?
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3My grandpa lived in northern Minnesota... O_o
Nearby a little town called Kettle River, about an hour south of Duluth.
- DuffyDirect, on 05/31/2008, -3/+3when your grandfather was young, the horrible suspension and ride in trucks probably made him gravitate towards regular vehicles for non-work activities. trucks today are more useful than they were back then and are also oftentimes more comfortable than regular cars. its quite relaxing to cruise high above the rest of the traffic if you ask me.
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -0/+8So much for the "we need these" argument. So the answer is, we *like* these. That's pretty much what I thought.
- DuffyDirect, on 06/01/2008, -4/+1you're completely ignoring my point, stop being blind to anything but your current beliefs. Owning two vehicles is more expensive than owning one. Your grandfather owned two because antique trucks were impracticle outside of heavy hauling because the suspensions would give you a hernia easily. the situation today has changed and now trucks are multi-purpose vehicles.
if youre advocating that people who live in northern climes should have no problem driving rear wheel drive cars, then youre an idiot. i can't even get out of my driveway going forwards if im in a rear wheel drive car in winter.
- aaeyers, on 05/31/2008, -5/+0Who said anything about rural farmers? I'm talking about 30+ inches of snow, when there is snow on the ground for 6 months out of the year. When you need a tall car just to be visible over the snow banks, and need 4 wheel drive just to get up a driveway. And that is in the city.
- cr42yr1ch, on 05/31/2008, -0/+0plus they can do 14 mpg on roads, thats awesome!
- ginestony, on 05/31/2008, -5/+16it's like putting glitter on a pimple.
- deanimate, on 05/31/2008, -11/+9what the ***** is wrong with people? do these manufacturers have a ***** brain?
my god...- JAFFA, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2American manufacturers for an American consumer base. So what do you think?
- Enron1985, on 05/31/2008, -6/+21Getting a hybrid SUV like that is just like people who go to McDonalds and order a supersized big mac meal and then get a diet coke, whats the point.
- utahnkid, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2The point is up to 50% better mileage, a pretty substantial gain. Please tell me how thats equivalent to ordering a diet coke with your big mac.
- linagee, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2The point is that diet cokes will kill you. Aspartamine is evil.
- DanMiller, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1I think that the point was that buying a Big Mac and then buying a Diet Coke only blunts the inevitable obesity and heart problems that await. Trading a dismally ineffecient vehicle for one that is still horribly below par with other high mileage options is only delaying the problem of over consumption.
- Soave, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3The point is that you get more food for less calories as compared to getting a supersized Big Mac meal with a regular coke.
The point is that you still get your SUV and get the added bonus of saving some money on gas.
- utahnkid, on 05/31/2008, -1/+2The point is up to 50% better mileage, a pretty substantial gain. Please tell me how thats equivalent to ordering a diet coke with your big mac.
- philrenaud, on 05/31/2008, -4/+8:(
I left Detroit just under a year ago now.
I want, so badly, to believe that there's some way of turning that city around, but the prospects grow dimmer every week.- mrraven200, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3I don't know why they are digging you down I'm still in Ypsilanti and what you say is 100% accurate. I guess Jack Nicholson was right when he said "you can't handle the truth."
- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+3I'm in Flint, and the best thing that SE Michigan can do is to turn into a computer/computational based research powerhouse.
If all of the colleges and universities formed a research alliance network; there's a LOT that it can do with computational-based and simulation research that can span a very wide range of areas and industries so that as long as the universities still exist and it can solve real world problems today; there's ABSOLUTELY no reason why higher education and research can't be Michigan's saving grace.
- HappyScrappy, on 05/31/2008, -6/+13Folks, it takes time to make a hybrid. When GM started this project, gas wasn't $4/gallon. Yes, it is now.
But hey, why not bitch about Toyota, whose most recent hybrid (the LS600h) gets the same gas mileage as its non-hybrid equivalent? Or bitch that half of Toyota's lineup is SUVs and trucks?
Why not bitch about Honda, who made two hybrids so far (Insignt and Accord) that flopped in the marketplace because they weren' what people wanted?
Every company is learning their way around the new marketplace of hybrids and $4 gas. Cut them all some slack.- JohnChapin, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3Oddly I have heard Toyota's strategy behind the Lexus Hybrids is to, "Offer V8 performance with V6 fuel economy."
I would be interested in comparing the performance numbers... but in a Lexus SUV I'd bet it being more of a superficial status symbol kind of reason.- HappyScrappy, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2It gets V8 fuel economy.
- cr42yr1ch, on 05/31/2008, -1/+0because everyone needs v8 performance
- PussInBoots, on 05/31/2008, -0/+11. http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-hybrid/
2. Sorry to say, but GM 57 out of 92 cars are trucks/SUV/crossovers/vans- HappyScrappy, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Toyota has 7 cars (counting the Matrix as a car when it's actually a crossover).
Toyota has 2 vans.
Toyota has 2 pickups.
Toyota has 6 SUVs.
So 10 out of Toyota's 17 vehicles are trucks/SUVs/crossovers/vans.
But that's just the Toyota brand. Let's count Lexus too.
Lexus has 5 cars (not counting IS-F separately).
Lexus has 3 suvs (hey, they cancelled one!).
3 out of Lexus' 8 vehicles are SUVs.
0 out of Scion's 3 vehicles are non-cars.
So, for Toyota, it's out 13 of 28. They have nearly the same ratio.- SammyJr, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2The Matrix isn't a "crossover", its a station wagon version of a Corolla. Its the same platform and engine as a Corolla and doesn't sit any higher off the ground.
- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2How is 46% and 62% nearly the same ratio??? (Wow..you must have REALLY sucked at math. At least you could count though...gold star for you Billy).
Toyota started their hybrid research programme in the early 90s, WELL in advance of the gas prices skyrocketing. When they launched the first Gen Prius in 1995, GM execs were essentially laughing. Now, 10 years later, on second Gen Prius, Toyota had to build new plants in order to keep up with demand as at one point, there was a two year waiting list for them.
Now, not only does Toyota essentially OWN the hybrid market, they also own a lot of the key patents related to hybrid technology and development. Who's laughing now eh!?
GM only started a few years ago, (about 10 years too late), because they finally realized the same thing Toyota did nearly two decades ago. And they need the solution NOW, and of course, they've been so busy touting the "you don't need a hybrid" horn that they're caught completely offguard while Toyota's strategically planning to put their hybrid technology across the board (I think, don't quote me on this) by no later than 2012. And where is GM? Scrambling, and they can't swing the funds to properly do the R&D -- so they have to essentially pay off the competitor in order to stay afloat. That also means that EVERY GM you buy now that's a hybrid, part of it will go to Toyota anyways. (Plus at $53,000 for a hybrid -- it is HARDLY worth $53,000).
P.S. You're also wrong. a) There's no LS600 (only LS600h L). and b) the LS460 L gets 16/24, while the LS600h L gets 20/22 (better in one and worse in the other, combined 19 and 21 respectively). So...how is that the same???
Why should we cut them some slack when the are STILL lobbying for more leninent fuel economy standards, which would probably make it THE worst, out of the G-8 automobile producing and exporting countries in the world? And yet, ironically enough; you can buy GM subsidary brands overseas that ARE more fuel efficient -- so you have to import your Opel back into the US if you want fuel economy -- how does that work??? What kind of logic is that?
- HappyScrappy, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Toyota has 7 cars (counting the Matrix as a car when it's actually a crossover).
- alpha754293, on 06/01/2008, -0/+2Even comparing the MY08 Toyota Highlander 4WD Hybrid to the MY08 Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid 4WD; stats are 27/25/26, 20/20/20 (city/highway/combined).
Other notable differences:
GVWR: Highlander Hybrid 4WD: 5935 lbs Tahoe Hybrid 4WD 7300 lbs
towing capacity: Tahoe Hybrid 4WD 6000 lbs. Highlander Hybrid 4WD 3500 lbs.
MSRP: Highlander Hybrid 4WD: $34,200 Tahoe Hybrid 4WD $50,490
seating: Tahoe Hybrid 4WD: 8 Highlander Hybrid 4WD: 7
you be the judge, but if I were to pick, I'd take the hit in 2500 lbs towing capacity and one less person for saving $16,000 off the base price, and 6 mpg combined better fuel economy. But that's just me...
- JohnChapin, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3Oddly I have heard Toyota's strategy behind the Lexus Hybrids is to, "Offer V8 performance with V6 fuel economy."
- Amazetbm, on 05/31/2008, -1/+10I wonder what kind of mileage gains they could have gotten if they just dropped a diesel engine in there. They put a larger displacement engine in the hybrids too.
- JohnChapin, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3It might get some extra gas mileage but the market for diesel fuel is less elastic than gasoline. The people that burn gasoline usually don't have the option of cutting out the pleasure travel that gasoline consumers do. That would be the farmers, truckers and other high volume consumers... For the people that do have diesel vehicles, that's why they're paying even more per gallon than high grade gas consumers...
One of the most shocking economic disparities I have seen though is in aviation. Jet fuel in Tennessee used to be less than $4.00 not so long ago. Now it's hovering at about $5.50 around here... But that's not the shocker... In Wisconsin the prices for jet fuel are almost twice as much. $8.22 a gallon at the Milwaukee airport. The distribution costs are killing the airline business as we know it.
- JohnChapin, on 05/31/2008, -0/+3It might get some extra gas mileage but the market for diesel fuel is less elastic than gasoline. The people that burn gasoline usually don't have the option of cutting out the pleasure travel that gasoline consumers do. That would be the farmers, truckers and other high volume consumers... For the people that do have diesel vehicles, that's why they're paying even more per gallon than high grade gas consumers...
- thatsiebguy, on 05/31/2008, -1/+9Hey, here is an idea.. Instead of making hybrids out of worthless SUVs simply because you get a tax break on them (and then bitch that no one will buy it), how about they make hybrid Mini-Vans instead?
- leuksho, on 05/31/2008, -3/+1Props to them for trying something different. Its good for people like my parents who live out in the middle of nowhere and need something to transport everything out of the house and themselves in the event of a flood or something similar (try that with a Prius or a van, it just doesn't work). But really, that logo on the side of the Tahoe couldn't get any worse. I really don't want to drive down the street in a big white SUV with the giant glittery word "HYBRID" pasted on the side.
- leuksho, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Woops, its a Yukon. Sorry.
- cr42yr1ch, on 05/31/2008, -1/+0because you need a "truck" to get through a flood...
- leuksho, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1Pick-ups work too. My dad actually owns a pick-up.
- mahenda, on 05/31/2008, -2/+10I don't get why all these heavy trucks are using insane V8 and maybe V6 gasoline engines. Diesel engine with much better torque is more than ideal while having mileage comparable to any crappy hybrids. Well maybe if they made diesel hybrid. I think diesel V6 could tow much heavier things than V8 gasoline...
I have 2.0 diesel engine in my car anyway and with 170bhp but I live in Europe, so I guess you need to start using diesel engines in US to get better mileage.- flyer5008, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1In the US there are limits for diesels. The "truck" the Yukon is based on is a 1/2 ton so therefore is not capable of having a diesel engine.
Same reason VW quit selling their TDI's here. The regulations on diesels here suck.- carpespasm, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Very true. Here in the states we can't buy the focus and fusion hybrids that are made here.
***** thing sucks!
- carpespasm, on 06/01/2008, -0/+1Very true. Here in the states we can't buy the focus and fusion hybrids that are made here.
- flyer5008, on 05/31/2008, -0/+1In the US there are limits for diesels. The "truck" the Yukon is based on is a 1/2 ton so therefore is not capable of having a diesel engine.
- peestandingup, on 05/31/2008, -1/+17I went into a Ford dealership recently to look at an Escape Hybrid (which of course they don't have in stock ever & cant even get one like EVER) to upgrade from a Scion xB because I need something with a bit more room but dont wanna sacrifice MPG & they tried every way in the world to convince me to get the regular one instead (which gets less than 20 MPG). The lady I was talking with called up another salesman on his day off to ask when they were getting more Hybrids in stock & for some reason put the douche bag on speakerphone. The guy knowing I was on speaker pretty much told the lady to "tell that hippie rock ***** to buy the regular engine." I can take a joke, but thats pretty unprofessional if you ask me & not to mention just a stupid thing to say, especially now with $4 gas prices. Why does someone gotta be a hippie to try & save $$ on gas?? Anyways, I said out loud for the guy to go ***** himself & he sorta blew it off like a joke. Oh well, now we know why Ford is in the ***** & almost bankrupt. They just don't get it.
- qetuo, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2Well by buying a SUV, you are supporting people like that. Ever thought about that?
- peestandingup, on 05/31/2008, -0/+6Yes, but we have a new baby now (not to mention 2 dogs) & they need A LOT of room when traveling. Nothing else gets as good as gas mileage than the Escape Hybrid currently that has the room we need.
Trust me, dude. I've mulled over this for a while now & nothing's out there. The options currently suck & we need something NOW (cant wait for option A or B thats months/years away), so I'm trying to be as green as possible for our needs.
- peestandingup, on 05/31/2008, -0/+6Yes, but we have a new baby now (not to mention 2 dogs) & they need A LOT of room when traveling. Nothing else gets as good as gas mileage than the Escape Hybrid currently that has the room we need.
- qetuo, on 05/31/2008, -0/+2Well by buying a SUV, you are supporting people like that. Ever thought about that?
- brad3378, on 05/31/2008, -4/+3Anybody else find it interesting that the
hybrid version of the Toyota Camry gets 33 (city) miles per gallon while the
hybrid version of the Ford Escape gets 34 (city) miles per gallon?
I always thought that cars were supposed to burn less fuel than SUVs. - nroose, on 05/31/2008, -1/+220 MPG is what my minivan gets. If I needed a truck to tow stuff, I would consider this.
But, I think the smarter move would have been a minivan. I know many people who would go for a hybrid minivan. I know no one who would buy a hybrid supersized SUV. Truth is that most people who buy these trucks don't need them, and are not concerned with the environment. Most people who buy minivans need them and do care. I would love a hybrid minivan that got 25 or 30 mpg. - paulmer2003, on 05/31/2008, -0/+4Consumers still like the big cars, they just want better gas mileage. I think a smarter move would be to make a hybrid with a small displacement diesel engine, as diesel engines have a lot of torque and are good on gas mileage.
- swicklund, on 05/31/2008, -3/+6GM is just trying to revive the commuter market for the SUV. They want to make their hulks look more "green". What really pisses me off is that they ignore the concept of smaller vehicles altogether, and then cry and sob for a government handout when their ***** business plan fails.
- spaceman84, on 05/31/2008, -2/+13I wonder why a $50,000 vehicle doesn't sell that well as a hybrid? Oh, let me think...maybe because people who can drop 50 grand on a grocery getter don't give a ***** about the cost of gas? Why the ***** does she need a three ton, 330hp SUV anyway? Hauling her fat old ass around? Now, I know she won't fit into a Prius, but a hybrid Camry or Altima will cart that tub of lard around just fine. Stupid *****.