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- jizzatch, on 08/19/2008, -11/+65Ethanol is a joke. It's less efficient, and it's diverting crop land that would be used for food to be used for energy instead. So, now we have rising food prices worldwide.
- aftern9ne, on 08/19/2008, -11/+54Ethanol. The ***** alternative.
- kokoshka, on 08/18/2008, -6/+38Rather than ethanol, why not biodiesel? It can be made from any vegetable oil (including corn) and will run a diesel engine just fine with zero modification.
- niccha, on 08/18/2008, -4/+31Because Brazil already has ethanol available at all 33,000 gas stations, 90% of cars sold there can run on ethanol, the price of ethanol in Brazil is $1 less per gallon than gasoline, and they have a self-sustaining and unsubsidized ethanol production system that uses less than 1% of agricultural land to produce all of their fuel needs.
- Lhandroval, on 08/19/2008, -1/+15Which is why we need to make Ethanol out of better stuff, like switchgrass. Switchgrass grows anywhere (we won't have to steal fertile land), and in most climates (which means we can grow it practically anywhere).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panicum_virgatum - biblee, on 08/19/2008, -3/+15NO. This is a horrible idea, ethanol is not the way to a greener future.
- kokoshka, on 08/19/2008, -1/+12http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/07/ethanol_vs ...
- niccha, on 08/19/2008, -6/+16Ethanol is only less efficient in engines that were originally designed for gasoline. If you design/tune the engine to burn ethanol it can get the same or better efficiency.
The food vs. fuel claim is a myth. In the last month alone, feed prices for livestock in the US have plummeted because of the rising strength of the dollar and much larger than expected corn yields. The only thing that really drives up food prices is speculators who profit on guessing what the price of a certain commodity will be in the future based on "best guess" logic. Problem is, often their best guess is horribly wrong. - Buckwyld, on 08/19/2008, -0/+10Too little too late imo. Doesn't the Chevy Volt come out this year too? I figure I would pick up one of those instead because I drive less than 40 miles per day normally. 75 cents to fill with a plug or 2+ dollars a gallon for ethanol (I am guessing based off the E85 price here in Vegas)... hmmm... decisions. Dugg though.
- lamejoketeller, on 08/19/2008, -1/+11ethanol that's produced from corn is just as bad for the environment for different reasons. Biodiesel and ethanol won't be true "green" sources until we can harvest them from things like plankton.
- kokoshka, on 08/19/2008, -1/+9Good arguments. Ethanol production is already established in Brazil, and in the US diesel cars are rather uncommon. Biodiesel might prove valuable to the trucking industry however, as it is much cleaner burning and can be mixed with traditional petroleum based diesel. Plus you can make it from old fryer grease.
- latrosicarius, on 08/19/2008, -4/+11Suzuki - a bit late to the alternative fuel party, and still doesn't really get it.
ethhanol rofl - MorganMghee, on 08/19/2008, -1/+8Nice treehugger link:
Biodiesel, on the other hand, "is the only alternative fuel to have fully completed the health effects testing requirements of the Clean Air Act. The use of biodiesel in a conventional diesel engine results in substantial reduction of unburned hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and particulate matter compared to emissions from diesel fuel. In addition, the exhaust emissions of sulfur oxides and sulfates (major components of acid rain) from biodiesel are essentially eliminated compared to diesel." (NBB) - thethinktank, on 08/19/2008, -3/+10Even if it were less efficient than gasoline, although I agree with niccha that it can be equally efficient, it is still cheaper than gasoline even after subsidies. I could fuel my car with $2.50/gallon E85 or $4.00/gallon gasoline. Even if E85 gets 74% of the output of gasoline in most flex fueled cars, that's the equivalent of paying $3.15 for an equivalent amount of gasoline. Still a joke?
And by the way, that crop land diverting from food? That's animal feed, not human food. Since grass fed beef is a lot healthier and better tasting, I'm happy to tell cattle farmers to switch while we get our fuel from the midwest, not the middle east... - MorganMghee, on 08/19/2008, -1/+7Bio-diesel can be and is mixed with regular oil based diesel, the infrastructure for retail IS in place. The processing unit to convert the spent oil into bio-diesel costs between $4k and $50k to produce supplies for small to largish stations, they are compact and require little if any permitting and require no long distance transport. Every restaurant, drive through and snack stand in America with few exceptions have at least one 20 gallon fryer, most have 2 or more. A low revenue KFC has 2-3 open fryers, and 3-4 pressure fryers. With a little over 10,000 stores, that's conservatively 1,400,000 gallons every 3-4 days just from KFC.
- sodade, on 08/19/2008, -0/+6Switchgrass can be rotationally planted in fallow fields and it "recharges" them.
- inactive, on 08/19/2008, -1/+7Is it just a coincidence that every person I've ever heard extolling the industrial virtues of hemp also smokes weed?
- inactive, on 08/19/2008, -2/+8That's not true SteelChicken. Cars in the US won't start on 100% ethanol without a spare tank that starts it on gasoline. I think it's more of a "15% gasoline helps with starts in any weather that doesn't approximate Brazil's climate."
- FairDinkumMate, on 08/19/2008, -1/+6Can people please make the effort to differentiate between ethanol based on source!
The rest of the world isn't as stupid as the US in trying to utilise an innefficient crop for ethanol production because it's politically expedient! CORN ethanol IS a joke. Sugar ethanol on the other hand(which is the only other large scale commercial ethanol crop at the moment) produces more than 7 times the energy & as Brazil has shown, is very viable.
The submitter of this article also "grouped" the US & Brazil together by saying they both only have a mximum of E85. This is not true(as the article actually stated!). Over 90% of new cars sold in Brazil are now flex-fuel & can run from 100% gasoline to 100% ethanol or anything in between. GM, Ford, Toyota, Volkswagon, Fiat & Peugot ALL produce cars now that run on 100% ethanol. - LarryLacuna, on 08/19/2008, -3/+8Food prices rise because farmers are growing more corn . So the supply of other grains drops.
Ethanol isn't a viable alternative to gasoline simply because you don't get enough energy per acre of corn. There isn't enough space in the world. - MrFurious2k, on 08/19/2008, -1/+6The Volt is EXTREMELY interesting because it's using a different idea than conventional "hybrids." It is a fully electric car meaning that it does not have a means to change its chemical fuel directly into motion. From what I gather, it's gasoline powered motor is simply optimized to charge the batteries. This is important because it means that the fuel powered engine could be fairly replaceable and changed when you place your order for one. It'd be a lot like a computer purchase where you decide the options that it comes with.
- maja742, on 08/19/2008, -9/+14more like 'suzuki to go bankrupt in 2010'
- inactive, on 08/19/2008, -0/+5http://gas2.org/2008/04/10/biodiesel-mythbuster-20 ...
- MasterPain, on 08/19/2008, -2/+7Cars here run on a mix so people wont drink the ethanol which is pure alcohol. Imagine getting a gallon of moonshine for 4 bucks.
- niccha, on 08/19/2008, -0/+5I love that mainstream media never has to cite any sources. That article is no more than propaganda to me, and again it's only talking about corn ethanol. There are many other types of ethanol out there. For instance, Brazil's ethanol is entirely made from sugarcane — and the have a completely unsibsidized self-sustaining ethanol system that provides ethanol at a price much lower than gasoline and uses less than 1% of their usable agricultural land to produce.
The future of ethanol in the US is from non-food crops (grasses such as switchgrass and miscanthus) and garbage which will have no effect on food prices and will not put money in the pockets of heavily subsidized corn farmers. In fact, the new opportunities arising from these second generation biofuels will pump life back into devastated rural communities.
It's about damn time we got over the corn ethanol "boondoggle," and moved on to other ethanol sources that let this country move forward into the future of energy without having such a huge sh-t pile of misinformation out there. - thethinktank, on 08/19/2008, -3/+7Ethanol is not just produced from corn, and corn ethanol is a temporary fuel while the 2nd gen ethanol fuels are developed: celluline (cellulosic ethanol), algae methanol, etc.
- derkles, on 08/19/2008, -0/+4We need more dependence on the ADM corn monoculture
- ikonoclasm, on 08/19/2008, -1/+5Ethanol may be $1 cheaper per gallon, but vehicles get worse MPG because ethanol does not have the same potential energy as gasoline. Simply put, it's a worse fuel. The OP is right in questioning why biodiesel isn't used. It's a superior fuel to gasoline and has significantly less ecological impact in its production than ethanol and gasoline.
Just because they have the infrastructure in place for ethanol does not mean it's a good thing. - duffy89, on 08/19/2008, -0/+4ok have no idea if thats true or not but it sounds convincing so
- Wxndel, on 08/19/2008, -0/+4Maybe on 95% ethanol. Expensive to remove the last 5% of water (binary azeotrope).
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
An azeotrope is a mixture of two or more pure compounds (chemicals) in such a ratio that its composition cannot be changed by simple distillation.[1] This is because when an azeotrope is boiled, the resulting vapor has the same ratio of constituents as the original mixture of liquids. As the composition is unchanged by boiling, azeotropes are also known as constant boiling mixtures (especially in older texts). - AlKo, on 08/19/2008, -0/+4Plus because of generally warmer weather Ethanol is easily supplemented by less need for gasoline as it is only used as a starter fuel during colder weather. Everyone I met in Brazil (Rio, Sao Paulo, Victoria) ran their cars on ethanol.
- inactive, on 08/19/2008, -2/+6Ethanol sucks. You have to burn more of it to get the same power from just plain old gas. So how exactly is it better?
- SocialPoison, on 08/19/2008, -2/+6"Zero modifications" isn't exactly correct for any diesel vehicle more than a few years old. Older diesel's have to have a bunch of seals changed to handle the higher corrosive power of biodiesel. Also there's the problem that biodiesel "gels" (or begins to freeze) at a much higher temperature than regular ol' diesel.
I'm not saying these are problems that can't be worked around... I'm just pointing out that you're oversimplifying the argument a bit.
Ethanol is a bad move regardless though... fuel from food = trouble. - BoneheadFarker, on 08/19/2008, -2/+6No. That's methanol.
- coyote1284, on 08/19/2008, -1/+4Meh, in 2025, due to over-population, euthanasia will be offered freely.
Coincidentally, and completely unrelated, scientists will discover the perfect fuel... Soylent Amber! - niccha, on 08/19/2008, -0/+3Read the article, those claims are supported with links.
- FairDinkumMate, on 08/19/2008, -0/+3In Brazil for example, less than 1% of arable land is used to grow the sugar for ethanol. On top of that, more than 40% of Brazil's arable land is still unused. So in the case of Brazil, the answer to your question is no, it has no impact on food prices or supply. Other countries have different situations though....
- sodade, on 08/19/2008, -0/+3You obviously haven't heard of ethanol from Algae.
- cawpin, on 08/19/2008, -0/+3You think they change the fryer oil every 3 or 4 days?
- curtisag, on 08/19/2008, -1/+4@thethinkthink
That's funny, because I saw E85 selling for $3.35/gallon around where I live. And it's by no means an inflated energy market like California is. At $3.35/gallon, if it's only 74% as energy efficient as gasoline, you would be paying a higher price based on gas prices where I live. - waspbr, on 08/19/2008, -0/+3it's is true, Brazil has been using ethanol for over 20-30 years, food crops were never affected by this, the rise in food prices is a rather recent problem, and it is associated with corn ethanol, not sugar cane, associating both may have been a measure to discourage the new renewable tech and keep oil as a primary source for a tad longer.
anyway the article is accurate. - coyote1284, on 08/19/2008, -1/+4I see what you did there.
- sodade, on 08/19/2008, -3/+6Please stop whining about using food for fuel. Educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol
- Travelsonic, on 08/19/2008, -2/+5Generalizations... gotta love 'em.
Corn ethanol is not the only form of Ethanol, ethanol from Algae and other plants are being developed. Brazil runs on sugar ethanol.
Corn ethanol is a joke yes, but CORN ethanol is not ALL ethanol. - jstohler, on 08/19/2008, -3/+6Sure, if you're a corn farmer.
- rynvndrp, on 08/19/2008, -0/+3We should NEVER focus on just one energy source EVER again. That is the mistake of the 20th century. If you look at the conditions of the 1910-1920 era, oil was the best choice in energy by far. The oil fiasco we are in is not a mistake in choosing oil, it is a mistake in choosing only oil. We need to switch to a large number of alternatives. If we look at just solar, lets say nanosolar, we will be whole depending on gallium. Gallium is cheap now as it is easily extracted from copper and aluminum slag, but their is a very limited amount. There is not way to mine just gallium and that caused a huge spike in prices for a short time in the early 1990s. We need to invest in a hold bunch of different energy resources, so that no material, whether it be gallium, uranium, copper, or crop becomes the new oil.
- ishkabum, on 08/19/2008, -3/+6when we talk about how it would be a bad idea to convert to ethanol because food prices would skyrocket and because we're susceptible to drought or damaged crops or what not...... let's not get ahead of the facts, and bear in mind: if we used 100% of our corn for ethanol production, meaning nobody eats corn, we would be able to fuel 20% of the cars in the US ... so it's not even worth thinking about what might happen if we all used ethanol from corn, because we can't.
- rynvndrp, on 08/19/2008, -3/+530% of the crop goes through ethanol production. That is not the same as 30% of our crop is used for ethanol production. Corn is not all used up. The grain that is left over after being 'squeezed' is then used for feed. That feed isn't as good, but don't think that a third of the crop is being used for ethanol, its more like a 5% reduction of feeding capacity.
- eebeelive, on 08/19/2008, -0/+2oh yeah!
- rocketman42, on 08/19/2008, -0/+2The Volt doesn't come out until late 2010 as a 2011 model. And the first year number will be very limited, on the order of 10,000 or so. It won't be until the 2012 models (come out in late 2011) that you will see more and realistically have a chance of getting one.
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