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Japan Mines `Flammable Ice,' Can be Environmental Disaster

bloomberg.com — Japan is joining the US and Canada in test drilling for methane even as scientists express concerns about any uncontrolled release of the frozen chemical. Some researchers blame the greenhouse gas for triggering a global firestorm that helped wipe out the dinosaurs.

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  • macwisdom, on 12/28/2007, -9/+5Relief from the oil addiction... another untaped source of energy or more F.U.D.??
    • slvrbullet87, on 12/28/2007, -9/+4Methane is a million times worse than oil in terms of green house gases.
      • RedHerringHack, on 12/28/2007, -4/+6Wow! A million? Care to site your sources?
        • slvrbullet87, on 12/28/2007, -1/+2It is what is known as exageration for effect... methane is more potent than Co2 as a green house gas. the reason no body really bitches about it is that animals, especially cows and humans are responcible for it and it isnt caused by industry. Well that is until now since they are going to mine a bunch of it and burn it
      • Voxxov, on 12/28/2007, -1/+8You know what else is a terrible greenhouse gas? Steam. Look it up.
      • Arrhenius, on 12/28/2007, -0/+6"Methane is a million times worse than oil in terms of green house gases."

        If you burn it, it gives off _less_ CO2 per unit energy than does coal or even oil.

        However, if it escapes into the atmosphere without being burned it is roughly 20 times more effective as a GHG than CO2. The exact factor is a little fuzzy because methane does not last as long in the atmosphere as CO2.
        • norman619, on 12/28/2007, -2/+3Water vapor is much more powerful. It dwarfs both of these gases. To see how effective it is at trapping heat take a drive out to the desert then head to a place with high humidity. I love how you guys cling to the CO2 myth when it has been proven that CO2 does not drive climate change.
          • JayD16, on 12/28/2007, -1/+1You're a ***** idiot. Just because steam is more affective doesn't mean we can ignore everything else. Yes, It would be pretty bad if we covered the entire globe with clouds but seeing as that isn't happening no one is complaining about it...
          • Arrhenius, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1Its about 2:1 in the total effect of water vapor vs. CO2.

            The reason for all the fuss about CO2 is the following:

            Put extra water vapor in the atmosphere and what happens? It quickly rains out.

            Put extra CO2 in the atmosphere and what happens? About 50% of it stays in the atmosphere for decades so it builds up over time. On top of that, the direct warming from the CO2 leads to a feedback effect - the warmer atmosphere holds more water vapor.
          • marx2k, on 12/30/2007, -0/+0I wish you had put the words "CO2 myth" earlier in your post so I could have stopped wasting my time reading it earlier :(
      • doctechnical, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2It would be like 100 times worse than 9/11. That's right - 91,100.
    • aegis9975, on 12/28/2007, -0/+10Natural gas we get today is 97% methane. Natural gas being basically gaseous fossil fuel. Its not an argument against mining frozen deep-sea deposits, the danger is there is a risk of massive methane leakage if they make a mistake.
    • DarkPrincess74, on 12/28/2007, -3/+1Plus this dangerous source of energy will sustain Japan's energy needs for a whopping 14 years! Seems worth calamity.
      • doctechnical, on 12/28/2007, -1/+4And after 14 years, a vengeful Gojia will araise, stomping Tokyo to bits.
    • aliengoods, on 12/28/2007, -1/+5Reminds me of the scientists who wanted to stop construction of the super collider because they said smashing 2 heavy atoms together would create a black hole and suck the earth in. Why are there so many Chicken Littles running around claiming the sky is falling?
      • cl0r0x70, on 12/28/2007, -0/+9Because the sky only needs to fall once.
      • kurtu5, on 12/30/2007, -0/+1Because fear is a good story.

        Who cares if cosmic rays pack far far more punch than any of our super colliers can achieve? Who cares that these natural collision experiments have been going on for 4.5 BY? A FUD story is much more funner.
    • floorman56, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2Slusho?
  • Mockylock, on 12/28/2007, -1/+21It's not completely about oil, but a natural gas source as well. Methane conversion doesn't take a ton of work to convert to, especially when mass produced. The problem they're going to face is storage, abundance and transfer of it.
    In it's current location, if something goes wrong with the extraction process, it could be catastrophic. They're not saying that it shouldn't be done, but it should at least be funded, monitored and governed correctly. If not, an ecosystem could be turned upside down and they would be in very bad shape. They also don't know exactly what the amount of pressure would be if a heated chain reaction were to occur. Working with gasses under water isn't exactly easy to do. It could rip apart the floor, kill all the fish up to the surface and light the water surface on fire for miles. On top of this, there is no technology or know-how on what to do if that occurs. There is no way for us to be prepared or stop it at the moment.
    I think they're trying to prevent a couple guys with drilling rigs to start plugging at the ocean floor without having a complete game plan and escape route in place.
    • Voxxov, on 12/28/2007, -9/+3More governance is the last thig we need when talking about new sources of energy.
      • bjornski, on 12/28/2007, -1/+10Because letting companies that string out damage payments for 20 years to get their case heard in a partial court to avoid paying them can be trusted SO much more.
        • mikelieman, on 12/28/2007, -0/+4Will GE *ever* clean up the PCBs from the Hudson River?

      • Logicexe, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2Has your anti government, pro free market ideology blinded you enough that you can't even see how sometimes government regulation or oversight is better than none?
    • aegis9975, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2Deep-sea methane clathrate mining has been discussed for many decades and only became financially feasible after gas went over $52/barel. The current techniques of mining are very much aware of the danger of setting of the methane clathrate deposits, US/Canada/Japan say they have proper monitoring systems to detect leakage, however, in practice, its still a question if it can be accomplished, and the stakes are very high if they fail.

    • Meatetarian, on 12/28/2007, -1/+2"OH GOD IT'S LEAKING NOBODY STRIKE A MATCH"
    • arpad, on 12/30/2007, -0/+1Oh for cripes sake, Mockylock's working on a cheesy script for the Sci Fi channel.

      This is part of the speech that the handsome, young maverick scientist gives to the international convention of fuddy-duddy scientists who are too shortsighted to see the terrible danger the handsome, young maverick scientist is trying to warn them about.

      If that weren't enough there's also a profit-maddened oil company owner who doesn't care one little bit that extracting methane clathrates will bring about an immediate end to all life on earth. He'll make billions, billions I tell you! And no smart-aleck college kid is going to keep him apart from billions, billions I tell you!

      So using sinister and really mean methods the unscrupulous oil mogul discredits the handsome, young scientist but doesn't count on the pluck and tenacity of the cute reporter chick. She sees past the oil mogul's machinations and because she majored in "hot" in journalism school she gets the story falling in love with the handsome, young scientist along the way.

      Gun fire, sneering, car chases, poor special effects and bad science ensue. A gruff, older scientist, unfairly disregarded by all the fuddy-duddy scientists, whom the younger scientist idolizes, provides crucial help before dying tragically.
      World-wide catastrophe is averted when the handsome, young scientist cuts the green wire - NOT THE BLUE WIRE! - with not a split second to spare.
      Roll credits. The end.
  • scabbers, on 12/28/2007, -1/+26Holy crap, anyone else want to add their pet theory for the extinction of the dinosaurs? Come one, come all!
    • bjornski, on 12/28/2007, -2/+25There were no dinosaurs, silly. Or else they'd be mentioned in the Bible!
      • IphtashuFitz, on 12/28/2007, -0/+8Waitaminute... I thought that new "creationism museum" in Kentucky showed Adam & Eve cavorting among dinosaurs. If they show it in a museum then they must be right.
      • DarkPrincess74, on 12/28/2007, -2/+6Maybe people didn't pee in biblical times because that's not in the bible either.
        • unpolloloco, on 12/28/2007, -0/+15just because i can
          Judges 3:24 After he had gone, the servants came and found the doors of the upper room locked. They said, "He must be relieving himself in the inner room of the house."
          • doctechnical, on 12/28/2007, -0/+6And THIS is why I love Digg. An inexhaustible supply of smart-asses. :)
      • Meatetarian, on 12/28/2007, -0/+4I heard someone say once that God put the dinosaur fossils in the ground to "test our faith," or something to that effect.

        I was too young to laugh it off then, but it sure is hilarious now.
      • JayD16, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2Don't be silly, of course there were dinosaurs...They just couldn't fit on the arc.
    • HayString, on 12/28/2007, -1/+3Yea, that's pretty unnecessary. What about the researchers who think the Earth is hollow, they should also take that into consideration.
      • piesforyou, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2I think you're using the word 'researchers' a bit loosely there...
  • Godlike, on 12/28/2007, -3/+8Why are we after yet another energy source that we have to dig out of the ground? Why would anyone even consider doing this? Especially Japan, they tout all of this high technology but then they are after more dig it up and burn it away energy... sigh.
  • slvrbullet87, on 12/28/2007, -2/+5Global firestorm? There wasnt a global firestorm... there was a global dust storm. killed plants and such... no plants=no animals
    • Voxxov, on 12/28/2007, -3/+2...because you were there, and saw what happened.
      • slvrbullet87, on 12/28/2007, -0/+3It works kinda like evolution... or how the solar system was created. Scientists create theories using reasoning evidence and peer review... it is generally understood and excepted by almost everybody that a meteor hit earth causing a huge dust cloud killing off plants to kill off dinasuars. Read up on what a fire storm is, very hard to have a global firestorm.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestorm
  • Jonjonr6, on 12/28/2007, -1/+5I'm a particularly gassy person. How do I collect my gas and sell it?
    • deacont23, on 12/28/2007, -2/+9Funnel
      Duct Tape
      Jar
      ????
      Profit!
    • ciram, on 12/28/2007, -1/+1In barrels.
    • calon9, on 12/28/2007, -0/+0Like me, you can keep a small pilot light duct-taped to your ass and you can throw away that bus pass once and for all.
  • jaxontyler, on 12/28/2007, -3/+1Dinosaurs aren't extinct. Ever heard of Isla Nublar? Duh. Read your Jurassic Parks.
  • fandyboy, on 12/28/2007, -4/+1Gas killed the dinosaurs? I've heard it all now........
    • michael43, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1Not just any gas, but frozen methane, emm...giant frozen farts ignited and wiped the dinosaurs out. Just when you think you've heard it all........
      • piesforyou, on 12/28/2007, -1/+1No one has said anything about the methane BURNING. It is just a greenhouse gas and if it were released in enough quantity it may have disrupted the climate enough to kill the dinosaurs.
    • troy1of2, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1Need proof?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP-n3E43M3Y
  • juckman, on 12/28/2007, -1/+8The end is upon us everyone! Flying spaghetti monster, I await your noodly embrace.
  • toh3k, on 12/28/2007, -0/+3I'm confused. I thought that scientists had no idea how dinosaurs died? And furthermore, haven't we been mining for methane for a long time now? I thought that methane accounted for a large percentage of the current alternative fuels being used.
    • rasheman, on 12/28/2007, -0/+0One of the theories I recently read about was a gamma ray burst from a nearby star going supernova that stripped off part of earth's atmosphere. I can't remember if that was what killed them off the last time but it was a leading theory for one of the mass extinctions.
    • jcounterman, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1But in today's world, it is scarier to say that global warming killed the dinosaurs. Fear makes people pay attention!
    • macweirdo42, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1IT WASN'T THE GODDAMN DINOSAURS!

      The article was referring to the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, which occurred 10 million years after the extinction of the dinosaurs.
    • boflaade, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1"mining methane gas"? Coal beds have methane and a great hazard to miners.
  • JasonCox, on 12/28/2007, -2/+7"Holy crap, anyone else want to add their pet theory for the extinction of the dinosaurs? Come one, come all!"
    Because you touch yourself.
  • m4lomb, on 12/28/2007, -2/+2I thought the dinosaurs became extint when they picked up smoking, drinking, and gambling, and interspecies sex... hmmm
  • Locnar, on 12/28/2007, -0/+4*****
  • ElAssoWipo, on 12/28/2007, -2/+1"Japanese engineers have found enough ``flammable ice'' to meet its gas use demands for 14 years."

    Do you have any idea how tiny Japan is compared to this planet? The dinosaurs were killed by something global. Not 14 years worth of methane under a small Island.
    • sonoran, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2OH! you mean this is not THE gas that actually killed the dinosarus?
    • condeh, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1Do you realise Japan is in the top 5 of all importers of Natural Gas,
      http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/nat_gas.html
      FTA "In Japan, natural gas consumption is projected to grow on average by 1.4 percent per year over the projection period, from 3.0 trillion cubic in 2004 to 4.3 trillion cubic feet in 2030 "

      14 Years at between 3 and 4 trillion is a lot, well its between 42 and 48 trillion feet of the stuff, a fair bit I'm sure you'd agree.
      • ElAssoWipo, on 12/28/2007, -1/+2No. It's peanuts. Cows all over the world must ***** the same amount of methane in a single day.
        • marx2k, on 12/30/2007, -0/+0Cows don't ***** methane. They fart it. Unless they're like you who drops a log into your underroos when you fart.
    • Thuktun, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1That's only the methane hydrate included in Japan's estimate. The world's oceans are estimated to be covered by QUADRILLIONS OF CUBIC METERS of the stuff, enough for half a million years of Japanese consumption at a constant rate.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_hydrate

      Since methane is a worse greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide, imagine what would happen dumping a large fraction of that into the atmosphere.
  • ibclimbing10, on 12/28/2007, -0/+4Actually, methane gas is 25 times worse than CO2, according to the IPCC. The flaring of methane is much more favorable than allowing it to melt and release into the atmosphere as a GHG. This may be a hope for pushing out the "tipping point" of global warming. I'm in favor of more research... it could be a great alternative fuel that actually helps the environment.
    • jcounterman, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1They've done the research, we've been mining methane as a part of natural gas for years, and we're extracting hydrates in North America already. When methane is burned, it creates much less CO2 than oil. It is only when it is released freely into the atmosphere that they are harmful. The most common place to see this happen is 1) in a decomposing swamp or 2) in a cow pasture.
  • DeFex, on 12/28/2007, -0/+19This is sure to wake godzilla.
    • Bengals1us, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2Dammit, I was going to make a funny Godzilla remark as well.
  • macweirdo42, on 12/28/2007, -0/+2Wrong extinction, people. The dinosaurs had already been dead for 10 million years when this happened.
  • 47f0, on 12/28/2007, -0/+3This is still mining a sequestered carbon resource, and releasing it into the atmosphere. It's an interesting project, but at some point, we're going to have to bite the bullet and take the next step up the energy ladder - burning carbon has served to get our technology where it is today, but it's past time to find other solutions.
  • Chahrlie5, on 12/28/2007, -1/+10For ***** sakes, just stick to nuclear power
  • unpolloloco, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1just curious: what is the energy cost per watt of using natural gas for power? According to the infallible SimCity, it's more than coal, which is more than the newest generation of solar cells.
  • duke, on 12/28/2007, -1/+2I just farted and killed a polar bear.
    • marx2k, on 12/30/2007, -0/+0Those must've been some serious bean burritos
  • john570, on 12/28/2007, -2/+3Nuclear energy is the answer. This is just stupid.
  • graemee, on 12/28/2007, -2/+1It was all those manbearpigs. They killed the dinos by the global firestorm with all their frozen farts.
  • condeh, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1goodness me, we've been mining, shipping and burning Methane for a long long time (the first Methane Gas Carrier, the Methane Princess was built in 1964 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_Princess)
    This one is going down as pure FUD
  • fantasticjon, on 12/28/2007, -2/+1oh, come on. The Japanese could never do anything to hurt us. They have such small penis.

    "well, he's got a point there."
  • tommymctom, on 12/28/2007, -0/+0``Methane hydrate was a key cause of the global warming that led to one of the largest extinctions in the earth's history,'' says Ryo Matsumoto, a University of Tokyo scientist who has studied frozen gas since 1987. ``By making the best use of our wisdom, knowledge and technology, we should be able to utilize this wisely as a new energy.''

    ah *****, we are completely doomed
  • majortom1981, on 12/28/2007, -0/+0This is not true the Ice Cores have shown this not to be the case. There has been various discovery channel specials on this already.
  • Urusai, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1Holy *****, it isn't methane hydrate, it's methane clathrate hydrate. Why don't they just call it "fire ice" and dumb it down to Bobby Wayne Redneck's level. They've already taken the "in-" from "inflammable" because retards can't figure out that "inflame" is the root (to be fair, "enflame" would be preferable).
  • britoca, on 12/28/2007, -0/+1"Japanese engineers have found enough ``flammable ice'' to meet its gas use demands for 14 years."

    wow, 14 years? don't bother, please.
    • Herolint, on 12/30/2007, -0/+1No kidding. Just freeze now, why don't you. Why put off the inevitable?
  • NeCedeMalis, on 12/29/2007, -0/+0Now I wonder, could a chemical in the amount described as "..used for energy for 14 years..." or "flammable ice" could be used as a mass fear generating agent in simply it existing; or perhaps even if they could be used in weapons of mass destruction ( also in a way mass fear generating). Also, what with the advances in Geo-thermal technology, solar, wave, permanent magnets, cold fusion, and radiant energy - wouldn't it be a better bet to go with one of those?
  • Herolint, on 12/30/2007, -0/+1I think I liked the good old days when people could explore things and invent stuff without all the Nervous Nellys coming out to have a group whinge.
  • Hyperion1144, on 12/30/2007, -0/+1Methane is probably the most dangerous, stupidest idea for energy, ever. We have thousands of terawatts of solar energy hitting this planet everyday, and they are putting all their money into researching how to get methane? Dangerous, explosive, much worse greenhouse gas than CO2; sounds great!

    How about solar panels for the land, open cycle ocean thermal energy converters for the ocean (which are really just solar collectors). The plants figured solar was the way to go long ago. What's wrong with us?
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