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- inactive, on 12/03/2008, -0/+38Hawaii is a perfect target for this. Other than driving out to North Shore, how much need is there for long distance, high speed travel? Add in the much higher fuel costs on the island, and you have a nice test bed.
- inactive, on 12/03/2008, -0/+17Hawaii has put a lot of effort into wind and solar power. I googled the two that I know of:
http://www.parkerranch.com/Parker-Ranch/213/ranchi ...
http://www.kaheawa.com/kwp/
/still planning to move back there... - rob89, on 12/03/2008, -0/+15glad to see the comeback of the electric car !!!
- inactive, on 12/03/2008, -0/+10Who needs hemp. Bucky Balls are right around the corner!
- KaiserArny, on 12/03/2008, -1/+10In Canada, Quebec, Ontario and B.C. are also looking into adopting the Better Place system.
- DrDash, on 12/03/2008, -0/+9How does Hemp = lighter weight cars ? I agree that cars need to be MUCH lighter, but think carbon fiber is the way.
- ApokalypseNow, on 12/03/2008, -1/+9I am curious how much the increased draw on the power grid will raise the bottom line on energy costs there, though... further, I wonder what their primary means of electrical generation is out there. They could do a lot with solar and wind, to say nothing of tidal power generation.
- Nerys, on 12/03/2008, -1/+8There are ONLY 2 obstacles to Electric car proliferation
#1 the Patent that GM sold to Chevron for which chevron REFUSES to license. Period
#2 Manufacturers REFUSE to build electric cars.
Thats it. Overcome those 2 obstacles and we could have UNDER $13,000 OVER 100 mile range electric cars right now. - kplo, on 04/01/2009, -0/+6wait, didn't someone kill that? who was it again?
- altgeeky1, on 12/03/2008, -0/+6It's pretty obvious to anyone that "peak demand" for electricity comes during business hours. The nice thing about electric cars is MOST of them will get charged during off-peak hours.
Most of the people afraid of electric cars are from Texas or Alaska, which stands to lose BIG time over renewable energy. The grid concern is a red herring.
The other anti-electric argument is somehow EVERYONE will trade in their car on day 1, AND take night-shift jobs that cause business-time recharging, meaning a massive increased draw on the grid. Horsepuckey.... just a LITTLE bit farfetched.... as probable as everyone in China jumping at the same time to cause earthquakes elsewhere... - kingofinternet, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5i always wondered why hawaii didn't have geothermal or wind based power and electric cars.
- rupric, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5Hopefully GM sell off the Volt division to a company that will be around and it will continue to happen after they fold like a house of cards.
- altgeeky1, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5Wow, you got seriously buried by 3 groups of people:
1) People who didn't know WHAT you were talking about. You should have mentioned that hemp productions allows for cheap organic polymer resins... way cheaper potentially than oil-based plastic. I knew about hemp-oil plastics, but even I had to think about what you meant...
2) People feel threatened if the US moves away from oil for individual transport. It's reasonable for people in OPEC nations to feel threatened. Very understandable.
3) A fair percentage of Americans who value their short term [foreign] investments too greatly. Long term benefits for America are not on their mind.. - 4bcd, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5It's no surprise that two of the most beautiful states in the US (California and Hawaii) want to adopt the Better Place system to protect their environments. But it just makes smart economic sense too. Stop spending billions on foreign oil and use renewable resources we have right here to power electric cars. Hope the rest of the country will get onboard!
- Beatmiser, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5We've been in the middle of a major dispute here on Oahu- We are trying to get a rail system here, and it has nearly gone through, but the problem is that there has been a major pushback by some people on the island. Truth is though for those that don't know this, Hawaii as some horrific traffic and I say that coming from inside the DC Beltway before living here.
It takes me an average of two hours to go twelve miles in rush hour traffic. (Ewa Beach to Honolulu) - Archer007, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5Geothermal power is a particularly sensitive issue in Hawaii because of Native Hawaiian culture.
- jefeboy, on 12/03/2008, -1/+6No, you'll pull in and swap out batteries.
Read this:
http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine ... - reubstock, on 12/03/2008, -0/+5Aloha! Hopefully Obama will see progress in renewables and EV's in a place near and dear to his heart. Go Better Place!
- tgc1, on 12/03/2008, -1/+5Like it or not, Electric Vehicles are the future. Get used to it.
- Nerys, on 12/03/2008, -1/+5ZERO increased draw on the electric grid.
Electric cars use LESS POWER than the total power consumed by the gasoline industry (to the pump)
Second an electric car (nimh powered add 50% for lithium minimum) only uses about 8000 watts to go 100 miles. - jeexbit, on 12/03/2008, -0/+4Check out Hawaii's gas prices...
- Khanvalescent, on 12/03/2008, -1/+5Geothermal power is not quite as easy as it sounds. Couple that with a schizophrenic environmental movement (most of the people protesting geothermal were against it as a ravishment of mother gaia or as a disruption of the sacred chi/mana flowing from volcanoes), and it never really (pardon the quasi-pun) got off the ground.
- Lionhart, on 12/03/2008, -0/+4Lighter weight cars is tough from a safety standpoint. if ALL cars were lighter weight it would be easy, but heavy weight and light weight cars existing simultaneously makes for a lot more traffic fatalities. Damn vicious cycles..
- LanceUppercut, on 12/03/2008, -0/+3Hawaii is a prime candidate for mass transit or some sort of tram mass transit system. Kaua'i would be well served with a tunnel from Hanalei to Lihue (one is already there, just needs to be expanded) and vice versa. Cut down on congestion from idle traffic first, then go after the whole electric car thing.
- inactive, on 12/03/2008, -0/+3So how about New York or Florida next? Anyone else agree...
- ashfish, on 12/04/2008, -0/+3Or if you live in Hawaii you hardly ever take a trip that is over 100 miles. In fact the only place you can do that and not circle the island like four times is the Big Island.
- Nerys, on 12/03/2008, -1/+4wow thats pretty expensive. meaning it would cost roughly $3 per 100 miles to drive in hawaii. (nimh powered electric) about $4.50 per 100 miles for lithium powered.
Still a good deal. your car would need to get 100mpg to equal the electric just in "cost" (ignoring clean and ignoring lower maintenance and repair costs for electric cars)
BUT then again it would be silly easy to toss some solar panels on the roof in hawaii :-) - Badandy127, on 12/03/2008, -1/+4Oh, how I love feigned knowledge!
- ashfish, on 12/04/2008, -0/+2Yes it would, but the bureaucracy in Hawaii is worse than in Washington D.C. so ***** gets done with the potential.
- Fordi, on 12/04/2008, -0/+2@apeweek:
When a claim is made that, "A typical EV gets 4 to 6 miles per kilowatt-hour, which is considerably cheaper than gas," I feel it's necessary to do the math to determine whether or not it is correct.
Given 5 miles / kWh and the nominal vehicular 30 miles / gallon, the standard 124,000 BTU / gallon gasoline, and your basic conversions from mi->m, BTU->Wh, etc, we can figure this out:
5 mi / kWh = 8.046 m/Wh
30 mi / 124,000 BTU = 1.328 m/Wh
So, your claim is correct: electricity is more efficient in terms of distance per unit power than gasoline. Let's see how well that holds up when we apply average costs.
At present, gasoline in the US costs $1.81/gallon (!!), and electricity costs 12.1¢/kWh. Converting these to similar units (¢/kWh), we get:
electricity: 12.1 ¢ / kWh
gasoline: 4.983 ¢ / kWh
So, it seems gasoline is cheaper per kWh - but wait, there's more. We now use these new factors to convert our above calculations to cost per unit distance:
(12.1 ¢ / kWh) / (8.046 km/kWh) = 1.504 ¢ / km = 2.42 ¢ / mi
(4.983 ¢ / kWh) / (1.328 m/Wh) = 3.751 ¢ / km = 6.036 ¢ / mi
So, after considering two separate interpretations, it appears you're correct: EV cost of power consumption is lower than gasoline vehicles by a factor of at least 2.
Lastly, let's do the same calculation using the cost environment of Hawaii. Hawaii's current price for gasoline is $2.633/gal, so converting... 7.245 ¢ / kWh. Their cost per unit kWh of electricity is 36.02¢
(36.02 ¢ / kWh) / (8.046 km / kWh) = 4.477 ¢ / km
(7.245 ¢ / kWh) / (1.328 km / kWh) = 5.456 ¢ / km
Is seems that EVs are still marginally cheaper than gasoline, even with a high spread in cost per unit energy. Of course, that's what happens when your engine efficiency is below 20% (as is true for internal combustion engines). And, as always, EV's give you the option of, as you said, further reducing costs by slapping on a solar panel, or other self generation via wind or wave. - avianeddy, on 02/17/2009, -0/+2BUcky Balls, its just fun to say
- avianeddy, on 02/17/2009, -0/+2if the Big 3 go under,
will their greedy hold on electric car battery patents expire?? - Barackalypse, on 12/04/2008, -0/+2Hawaii is the worst place to do this, because Hawaii's eletricity costs are 2.96 times the national average, but their gasoline costs are only 1.46 times. This means, whatever typical electrical versus gasoline cost calculations justify an electric car anywhere else in the US have to be TWICE as good to justify it in Hawaii. Are you people really so in love with the idea of this that you'll immediately buy into anything anyone tells you about it, when even a tiny bit of logic explains why it isn't true?
http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/115.htm
http://www.hawaiigasprices.com/retail_price_chart. ... - MykeRotch, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2That probably has to do with the ocean air, high humidity, and the occasional Kona winds bringing in the "vog" and subsequent acid rain.
- Yez70, on 12/03/2008, -1/+3http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm
- malia808, on 12/04/2008, -0/+2I used to live in Ewa Beach, I feel your pain
- inactive, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2Small islands, moderate temperatures that are battery friendly. I wonder how they will deal with the large changes in elevation. As a gas guzzler-driving midwesterner this makes a lot of sense though, especially if Hawaii could use geothermal or nuclear power to generate their electricity.
- malia808, on 12/04/2008, -0/+2And your point is...? Everywhere you go there are ***** cars.
- OaklandNative, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2Wired had a great article on Agassi and a detailed explanation of his plan a few months ago:
http://www.wired.com/cars/futuretransport/magazine ... - Archer007, on 12/03/2008, -0/+2Hawaii gets over 90% of its energy from imported or domestic oil.
- inactive, on 12/04/2008, -0/+1Sounds good in principle when you realize Hawaii generates 85% of its energy from oil. Electric cars here only make sense in the city where you get much higher efficiencies in stop and go traffic.
- parasitewasp, on 12/04/2008, -0/+1Because there isn't any money to do anything.
- Swivelstick, on 12/04/2008, -1/+2If a company stifles innovation or limits the use of a technology, all rights should be removed from that company.
- zacharytelschow, on 12/04/2008, -0/+1Are you intentionally obtuse or intentionally ignorant? You really think if the Big 3 could produce a competitive electric car they wouldn't? Since there'd be no money in electric cars, they probably wouldn't do it. And yea, you're probably right, GM is in a phenomenal position and the Volt is just an expensive side show.
- MadEnvoy, on 12/03/2008, -1/+2What the ***** is Dog the "Bounty Hunter"'s wife going to do now?
- russau, on 12/03/2008, -1/+2Electricity Rate Comparison by State
http://www.neo.ne.gov/statshtml/115.htm
Hawaii has the highest electricity prices - by a pretty good margin too. I wonder if this anything to do with the state's decision, i.e. more tax revenue for the state? - Jordan117, on 12/04/2008, -0/+1Um, he's not spamming, people. Better Place is the name of Agassi's organization, and they really do have a social network.
- Barackalypse, on 12/04/2008, -0/+1Here is a nice graph, showing fuel cost and electricty cost with some vehicle efficiencies listed.
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/costs.pdf
For fun lets look at the 4 mi per kwhr graph at 30 cents per kilowatt hour (slightly less than what Hawaii pays, but what the heck), we get a cost per mile of about 6 cents. Compared to the 45 mpg vehicle line at, say $3.00 per gallon (they're paying 38 cents less now), it looks like the gas vehicle costs about 6.5 cents per mile, so you're getting roughly 10% less economy per mile on gas. Now, unfortunately, electric vehicles look to be significantly more expensive up front, so you'd likely never recover from that deficit over the normal life of the vehicle. Electric vehicles make sense for heavy drivers in places with average cost electricity though, just not Hawaii like the article said. - qwickone, on 12/03/2008, -1/+2hopefully with the focus on wind and solar energy and this addition of battery exchange, the electric car can actually take off the way hybrids did
- parasitewasp, on 12/04/2008, -0/+1As a Hawaii resident I welcome electric vehicles. I'd also love to see mass rail transit and a nuclear power plant as well. There were massive wind mills on the north shore ,on the US Army training area, built during the 70's . The low cost of fuel and at the time high cost of maintenance were their defeat. in the 80's.
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