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98 Comments
- iam413x, on 10/12/2007, -2/+43I'm an active hunter myself but I've never understood trophy hunting. The idea of killing wolves just seems sick to me, i guess because my own dog is part wolf himself(I couldn't make that up).
From my standpoint, if you make the kill it should be for the food. - Nickatnite101, on 10/12/2007, -7/+43Can't wait till bald eagles come off the list... I hear they taste like pure freedom.
- Waiting2awake, on 10/12/2007, -14/+33 What a sad state of affairs. How pathetic it is when a bunch of cowards have to try and kill something to try and feel like men.
- thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15Gee, I don't see people lining up for wolf permits. Do you?
The only people that have ever actively hunted wolves are rancher. Because they go after cattle.
Besides, all the hunters I know, including myself, hunt animals for food. Not for trophy. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16@Waiting2awake
You like looking at wild life? You like going to the park? Do you like to look at a healthy population of animals?
Then thank a hunter.
Hunting/fishing licenses pays for most if not all of state conservations' bills and hunting organizations are the largest contributors to organizations that work to bring back endangered wildlife. Plus if wasn't for us 'real men' the wild life would not have a check and would over populate causing disease.
If you bring up "well if we didn't kill off the predators then we would have to hunt" that is true but then you couldn't let your kids go outside or enjoy the park because the predators are looking for an easy kill.
I'd love to go back the old days were we had to carry rifles to protect us from lions, wolfs, and bears (oh my) but you city loving pansies would complain there are too many guns. - dustyshadow, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9wolves, not coyotes
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8People that hate hunting need to spend one day on the farm where their meat is produced.
I'd rather be a deer born free and have a good chance to live out my life than be a cow that is slaughtered after one year for meat and $300 Nike's. - eplawless, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10How about we worry about both at the same time? They're not ***** mutually exclusive, Brandon.
- Nickatnite101, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11So if i eat the wolf its ok?
- dustyshadow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6sowerp,
The effects of the the deer population has been study extensively. In areas such as Ohio, endangered plants and other species are being wiped out because of the over abundance of deer. A trained person can walk through an area and tell if there is an overpopulation of deer just by looking at the local plant life.
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2003/01/04/loc_deer04.html
"The deer are raiding the food sources and nesting grounds of smaller animals, including birds, chipmunks and squirrels, while their own numbers go unchecked."
"Travelers are paying the price for the surge in the number of deer. In 2001, the state recorded 31,586 deer-car collisions, about 17 percent more than in 2000. Insurance officials said the crashes caused about $63.2 million in damage."
http://www.nps.gov/cuva/upload/Bannered%20Deer%20Bulletin.pdf
"This scenario is not unique to CVNP or to northeastern Ohio. Adverse ecological impacts of high deer (and other ungulate) numbers have been documented in hundreds of scientific studies throughout the United States" - dustyshadow, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6a 12 foot fence? Is your dog that one from the neverending story?
- sp00nz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@Waiting2awake
You don't seem to have any qualms about using a computer that was built in a factory which was created on top of lands where native speicies lived. We are all responsible for the state the species are in. Don't pretend like you are not guilty. - Waiting2awake, on 10/12/2007, -12/+17What am I gettting dug down for? Ahh cowards are upset that someone called them one?
Cowards
Cowards
Cowards
Cowards
The only reason anyone has a "right" to hunt is to gain food, for survival. To do otherwise is just sheer unadulterated cowardice. - thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Why do you morons wish to say that you MUST hunt something that can kill you?
Do animals follow this rule?
Also as the human race, we have developed knives, swords, bows, arrows, and guns. Why must humans sacrifice this advantage to go and hunt for food?
Are you a vegan? Do you eat NO meat. Or do you prefer your meat raised to be slaughtered for your plate?
For reference, every animal I've killed has lead to somone's plate. - rhavenn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7No, their only a problem when you try to use poison, rifles or traps to kill them. Instead of killing them get yourself a couple of flock guard dogs:
Great Pyrs
Kuvaz
plenty of others
that can be trained to work your perimeter. A wolf won't enter that, neither will coyotes, bears, etc... They might try once or twice, but once the remember there are 3 or 4 large (135+ lbs) pissed of dogs hanging around everytime they try they will go for easier pickins. Of course, ranchers could also try working something different then a stupid ass cow. Raise buffalo. They know wolves and wolves know them and don't mess with them.
Many ranchers just need to pull their heads out of their asses and try natural means of protection that people used LONG before guns, poisons, etc... where introduced. - barryiggins, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9in all seriousness, wolves are quite a bitch for the herding folk.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Ranchers are now being payed for livestock killed by wolfs in Montana. Guess who is footing the bill? Out of state hunters and the big evil NRA.
- WhiteRaven, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@rhavenn
Don't you realize that the need to have guard dogs means that yes, they DO cause problems? The fact that there are ways to address the problem just means extra work for the ranchers... hence it is "quite the bitch".
It's quite a bitch to get a flat tire... having a spare in the trunk is just a way of fixing the problem, it doesn't mean there is no problem. It would be better if tires never went flat. Do you understand? - Brandondork, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4go to L.A. you'll be hunted by which color your skin is... you said you wished... be careful what you wish for.
- wacki, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@barryiggins
"in all seriousness, wolves are quite a bitch for the herding folk."
True but they saved yosemite. Check out edward nortons/national geographics: Strange Days on Planet Earth
http://www.pbs.org/strangedays/index_flash.html
If you lose predators the whole ecosystem breaks down. It's amazing how fragile (and strong) nature can be. - celotil, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I see that a few people missed my point completely, so I'll say it again without extra clarification.
If you need to hunt to survive then by all means use anything at your disposal.
If you are only hunting for "sport" then it doesn't seem fair if you've got a greater advantage than the animals you're hunting. Why not just go hunting wearing thick clothing (as an analogy for fur) and knives (since we don't have proper claws)? - gDubz, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14Indeed, shine my rifle and hunt the bastard hunters.
:(
I can't imagine hurting a dog, or wolf for that matter. I don't agree with the decision to allow trophy hunting of wolves. - rhavenn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I call bullshiat. Wolves have no interest in eating your kid. They have no interest in human population zones. That argument is such crap. Barring a Jack London'esque freezing winter in the arctic circle where they are eating themselves they won't approach a human.
The argument that hunters will cull the weak, etc.... Yeah, when was the last time the majority if hunters actually shot the weakest animal? They shoot the bucks with huge racks, exactly the ones that should be left alive.
I don't hunt. I have no problem with hunting for food, clothing, etc.... Hunting so you can show how big your dick is..that's just stupid.
You're more likely to get shot by your own kid, some ex-military Vietnamese guy, your drunken buddy or yourself then you are likely to get atacked by wolves, bears and mountain lions all added together.
I don't understand why people fear nature. Respect it and it will respect you. - Waiting2awake, on 10/12/2007, -10/+13DUSTYSHADOW
And in that vacuum you call a head, did it ever occur to you that there might be a reason the deer population gets out of wake? Maybe because you hunted their natural hunters? Like wolves?
You called me an idiot?
Buddy check yourself. - Arainach, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Try again, thcobbs. http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20070111-1947-wolfhunting.html
- mtekk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@Waiting2awake:
"In order for meat to taste good think of what you have to do to it."
Well that depends on your taste, and the quality of the meet. A cut of meat with somewhat decent quality needs nothing more than grilling. When I eat meat, I eat it to taste it's natural flavor (which most meat has) not the flavor of seasonings. Also, your comment could be worked in the other direction. "In order for salad to taste good think of what you have to do to it..." Salad dressings aren't very healthy for you either, they may taste good, but not everyone eats salad with dressing, just as not everyone eats meat with seasonings/marinades/etc. - Nickatnite101, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5uhhh Waitingtoawake, humans were given a ***** brain as a natural weapon. Since you don't use yours i'll explain. Using our brain we make ***** to kill animals and eat them to survive. I was not given Horns or a poisonous tail or even speed but i was given the ability to use tools.
thecobbs beat me to it... - dustyshadow, on 10/12/2007, -7/+10Yes that is one reason but that was also caused by increased population of people and the encroachment onto the wolves' land. Wolves require a lot of land to live, just like the Florida panthers and without the large amount of land, they die even when they aren't hunted. The fact is, wolves are pretty much gone in the northeast and you can't fix that now. So since we caused one problem, we're supposed to let another one get really worse? Yes, you are still the idiot here.
- dustyshadow, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@Waiting2awake
It's called wildlife management for a reason. Look it up and stop being so ignorant. - PaladinZ06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Fencing? I presume you think 8 foot fencing *THAT THEY CAN'T DIG UNDER* is cheap or easy? No, the easiest thing to do is fence 6 feet and put in a nose wire and a top hot wire. Of course your kids will have to watch out for the hot wires. And of course you'll have to spend a lot of time clearing the electric fence lines from vegetation that will short the wire.
I do have a great pyrenees, but I'd need 3 more to deal with a pack of wolves near by. The food and veterinary care costs won't be trivial.
Of course that doesn't help me if I go outside my fenced, guarded, electrified area.
Also - there are PLENTY of documented cases of wolf attacks. http://www.aws.vcn.com/wolf_attacks_on_humans.html
Sure some of the cases are old, but the population levels haven't been this high for a long time.
Again - what do you think happens when predator populations drop? You think they just say "OH OK I VOLUNTEER TO DIE NOW"? Have you watched the television special about the cougars in Vancouver Island? All the lion attacks happened once the second growth forests slowly wiped out all the extra vegetation the deer lived on. The deer populations were decimated by the decrease in food and predation. Of course, the cougar attacks will level off once the population is under control, but in the meantime quite a few have starved to death or have been hunted down and killed because of the human attacks.
"Trophy Killing" will not wipe the species out because we have a tag system now. Tags will not be issued for wolves if the populations are dwindling. The wildlife management folks do this for a living - the may have considered some of these issues.
There is nothing magical about a human that makes predators afraid of them by default. A wolf learns that it can eat kids easily, and the whole pack learns it. Humans near wolves in the past knew what they were doing. Read the accounts on the link above.
The more you know! - EEPS, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5@Brandondork
I absolutely detest that argument. The idea that the entire human race is incapable of focusing on more than one issue at a time is ludicrous. Human rights are obviously important, but what Achalemoipas said has nothing to do with them. If everyone decided that it was only important to focus on the most pressing issue, then I think we would be in a sorry state of affairs today. The fact is, the world is full of issues that require attention and I applaud any one who is willing to get involved with any of them. - sonofagunn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@theonlyrockstar, why is that ironic? It makes perfect sense. If they're not endangered anymore, allow a sustainable amount of hunting (key word being sustainable).
Make the licenses cost enough money to fund a management program to ensure they population levels stay healthy and we don't hunt too much.
It's what we do with almost every other animal species, why not wolves? - scjones, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3We do *****. Keep runnin.
- AllnightChemist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm sure you can simultaneously be concerned about human rights and animal rights. You make a good point, but this story IS about animals.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4So do we start introducing wolfs and monition lions to cities and towns to control the population of deer? I'm fine with that since I live in the woods and know how to protect myself and family but do you?
- WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Have you never heard of barbed wire?
- PaladinZ06, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Some relevant points:
Coyotes and Wolves were mass poisoned until the early 1970s when the poisons were banned.
Coyotes and wolves are only afraid of humans so long as humans strike fear in them and they aren't desperate. The fact that there has been very little in the way of wolves attacking humans is purely because they aren't co-mingled. There are coyotes stalking kids in Southern California right now. The state-hired hunter called to deal with a very aggressive coyote pack where we lived in Norco, CA found the first 2 coyotes stalking some 3 year olds playing in a back yard only partially attended. The alpha bitch snatched our dog from right in front of my wife only 4 feet away in a brightly lit backyard. It ran past 2, 40 pound dogs of ours, snatched the chihuahua and ran. Human beings allowing coyotes and wolves to be beautiful and left along when seen just trains them to lose their fear of humans.
I now live in woods south-west of Portland, OR and although the coyotes are plentiful, they stay out of site and don't go after livestock. Any that do are promptly hunted by the land owners. In town they have far more pets lost and problems with them. The city folk are unarmed and fairly afraid of them. You see a coyote, the right behavior for you is to defend your turf, yell at them, throw rocks and generally be menacing.
The coyote packs in California are continually being hunted by the state because as they hit critical mass, they change tactics from guerrilla 1-2 coyotes performing snatch and run tactics, to group feed approaches where they find yards with the biggest and the most dogs, 10-20 coyotes jump the fence (up to 8 feet), and they dispatch and eat their fill right there in the back yard. This information was given to me directly by the game warden that had to deal with just such a pack in Temecula a few days before investigating our complaint.
Those are just coyotes. Coyotes are weak sauce compared to wolves. Wolves are far smarter, hungrier, and perform coordinated attacks very very well. They will not run up and bark at you and be menacing, they will not growl and defend their territory, they will simply distract you with one wolf, while 2 more come from behind. They are very effective killers, and when food supplies run low you'd best watch out.
People talk about the balance of nature, of humans not being an integral part or some such none sense. That is crazy talk. The Indians hunted the coyotes and wolves for thousands of years. There were LESS coyotes and wolves back in the day because there was far less grazing for small game and deer plus the human predation of the Candis.
People claim "oh just let them be and the populations will control themselves" and that is just sad. They don't consider the rampant disease and slow tortuous deaths those animals will suffer. They don't consider that hungry wolves/coyotes/lions will attack anything they think they can eat in desperation. They think the wolves will stay out in the wilderness when they clearly will stay in the wilderness just as well as the coyotes in downtown LA do.
Hunting wolves to control populations is simply more humane, both for the wolves and for the humans that have just as much right to defend their own lives as the wolves. Hunting them through tags being issued is a far cry better than letting the farmers and ranchers wipe them out wholesale - which they will likely do if the populations aren't controlled.
Any wolves, coyotes, lions that were a problem for an Indian tribe would be hunted. I don't think we're talking about doing anything different that this are we? - thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Just because they are removed form the endangered species list does not put them back on the game list. There are SEVERAL animals NOT on the game list that are also NOT on the protected/endangered list.
- rhavenn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@marvin69
The myth that everyone carried a gun to protect themselves from everyone and everything is just that, a myth. The percentage of the population that owned a gun prior to the industrial revolution was in fact extremely small. Shootouts like you see in Eastwood films happened maybe once a year or less. Far less then the once a week school shootings we have now.
Sure, you had your hunters and trappers who had guns, but that was their life. The frontier farmer might have had a gun to help with the food supply, but it surely wasn't about "protection" from the big bad bear. Get a few dogs and viola, no more bears.
The people who lived in the towns, etc.... they rarely owned a gun. It was not affordable. These days guns are easy to make, cheap and plentiful. The amount of income that can be considered discretionary has grown a lot. - ryland2, on 10/12/2007, -18/+19Not funny...
- sonofagunn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1A fence to keep out wolves is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. First of all, it would have to be a heck of a fence. It would be too expensive for the farmers.
Second, it would cut off migration routes of all animals, not just the wolves. It would create a much bigger problem then it would solve. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2My dog is a German Shepard Border Colly mix. She can up to the top of a 12 foot fence and use her front paws to pull her up and over. This is why I couldn't take her to Happy Tails (doggy day care) because every time the baby sitter turned around my dog was on the other side of the fence 12 foot fence.
- Brandondork, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5@EEPS
So your saying that rich lady who's wearing wolf, is justified as a great person, just as long as she donates money to orphanages and keeping the rain forest alive? It's about the principle and priority. Either you care or you don't. If animals have a higher priority than human beings then your an idiot. He wants to put people who wear fur in a 3rd world country prison, the argument isn't about that it's a 3rd world country where human beings are dying, but it's about people who wear animal skin deserve to be in a 3rd world country. WTF? He's more concerned about this stupid dog than a country filled with death and decease - sonofagunn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Waiting2Awake - I can respect anti-hunting arguments from someone who doesn't eat meat at all. But to eat meat and then criticize hunters all at the same time is very hypocritical.
You don't "need" to eat that piece of chicken anymore than someone "needs" to have a rack of deer antlers hanging on his wall for decoration. Both are selfish and unnecessary desires that led directly to an animal being killed.
I'm all for hunting (for any purpose) as long as the population does not get overhunted. - CeltiCowboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If you "real men" didn't kill out all the preditors the herding animals wouldn't reach crisis populations.
In natural numbers, men killing for necessary food and hides are part of the natural balance. Men hunting in large organized parties to keep the bison from blocking trains or to kill out animals they consider as competition or "dangerous" upset the balance of nature. So hunters actually caused the overpopulation proplems they now claim to "fix." I call your argument bogus. - pentomino, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I remember stories on TV about wolves invading farms, and the farmer not being allowed to do anything about it. So diggs all around to anyone posting qualified information about wild animals.
- CeltiCowboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Actually, the governor of Montana is promoting wolf hunting to keep them to the minimum number allowed without being returned to the list. The way the guy postures shows he, and the "hunters" who whoop it up during his speeches, are jerks of the highest order.
- anphanax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Waiting, I don't understand how killing another animal makes you a coward. Sure, it might make you a murderer if you kill something for no good reason - but I don't see the cowardice. It doesn't really matter what tool is used (bare hands, gun). I'm sure some of the hunter types would kill something with their bare hands, if they could... bragging rights to other like-minded people?
But, I don't understand the whole 'coward' thing, or why you feel the need to try and insult others (afraid of them or something?) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2My dog can jump a 12 foot fence without much effort. I think the better solution is putting a shock collar on every type of deadly animal and ring every ones house in an invisible fence (that would be much eaiser and cheaper than fencing off the rockies.
- johnate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2A fence on their property, not the rockies, no one owns the rockies except every one in the US.
The point is that people who live in the area with the wolves complain about them (the wolves) on their properties and they see killing them as a solution, rather then checking and repairing the fence.
The point is that they are too lazy fix the fence.
*from below
Also you should move the junk away from your fence that let's the dog jump over by giving it a boost. -
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