What is Digg?221 Comments
- Gumby902, on 10/12/2007, -14/+86They usually cost a significant amount more than regular cars, and take several years to see a cost benefit. Hybrids are more about environment than about economy.
- gavroche, on 10/12/2007, -2/+61I would love to have an hybrid car, but im broke. So I stick with my 800$ car :-(....
- nreynolds, on 10/12/2007, -11/+54buy a motorcycle. They get great mileage and they're totally badass (you know it). Who cares if they're dangerous?
- opensourcemaven, on 10/12/2007, -10/+52maybe if they had some hybrid cars that weren't ass ugly?
- Dgen_X, on 10/12/2007, -2/+42yeah...I'd love to pick up a hybrid....but I'd rather stick with my current 35mpg highway getting no monthy car payment $550/year insurance having current ride
A mid nineties Escort isn't much to look at....and on top of that it's "plum" colored (***** pink) but I like not putting more than 10 gallons in the tank at any fill up - gtluke, on 10/12/2007, -21/+55environment?
do you have any idea how damaging it is to the environment to make a lead acid battery like that?
the hybrids are some of the worst for the environment, with the magnesium, aluminum, and batteries. producing these is very harmful to the environment, with the energy and process used to make the material.
hybrids are about feel-good-ism and status symbol. - Afreyt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+29"The sad truth is that the vast majority of car drivers talk about swapping gas-guzzling machines for fuel-sipping hybrids [but don't switch]"
No, its not sad. It means consumers have a brain. The difference in price between a hybrid and an efficient, compact car, like a Honda Civic, does not exceed the savings in gas you get from using a hybrid. Higher maintenance costs, batteries that can only be cycled a finite number of times before requiring an expensive replacement, and higher initial outlay mean it makes no sense except to someone who gets off on flouting their environmentalism. If an environmentalist wants to pay the difference for me to buy a hybrid, I'll get one. Until that happens, I'm on a budget, so "NO."
Not to mention, if you don't burn as much gas, all you are doing is reducing the demand and thus lowering the price for someone else who will. So until the price of gas is so high that a hybrid is economically cheaper (say, we either run out or someone institutes a carbon tax), no-one who makes smart decisions about their money will buy one. And I resent that somehow there's something wrong with me for recognizing that. Your pet issues are not my pet issues.
Likewise when solar panels are cheaper (on the whole, after factoring in the difficulties with homeowners association and permits and grid tie-ins) than buying grid power and natural gas, I'll get solar panels. When environmentalists stop complaining about bird kills and let me put up a windmill, I'll put up a windmill. When environmentalists quit complaining about nuclear power, there are a lot of people who want to go nuclear instead of coal. But it seems like a lot of people want everyone else to absorb the costs for what they want.
The real problem is not that people don't want to be environmentalists, its that the presence of externalities makes it economically disadvantageous to BE an environmentalist. There is no reward for being efficient in many arenas, because waste is subsidized. Stop subsidizing being wasteful, and get the externalities into the economy, and all these things will fix themselves. - Kohath, on 10/12/2007, -10/+34Hybrids are about saying you drive a hybrid. They are trendy.
Their economic benefit is negative to the driver and their environmental benefit is dubious.
Gas always goes up in price in the spring and down in the summer. I should spend $25K on a hybrid because gas is 60 cents more expensive for 10-12 weeks? - 3tcp, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25High efficiency diesel > Hybrid
- ganjadude4391, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24hybrids are more about talking about how you own a hybrid than saving the environment
if you REALLY cared that much about it you would walk, take public transportation, buy a bike or work on finding a different source than gas - signal15, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21Even after the environmental tax rebate (which I don't think they are doing anymore), you would have to drive the car for 8 years (avg 15k a year) to get your money back out of it. My buddy bought one, and he gets nowhere near the claimed MPG.
You're better off buying a VW diesel, which can get anywhere from 45 to 65 mpg. I've also heard the Volvo is releasing their diesel engine here in the US. It might be out now, I haven't checked in awhile. Even a late 90's Benz diesel gets 38 MPG, and it's less than half the cost of a new Prius.
Not to mention, way more fossil fuels were used in the manufacturing of the batteries in Hybrids than even the most gas guzzling car will use in its lifetime. Hybrids, overall, are terrible for the environment because of the manufacturing process. - EndersGame, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18Maybe the type of people that are concerned about saving a couple dollars at the pump are not the same type of people that are buying new cars off the lots. I am sure there are many people planning on getting hybrids, they may just be waiting for used hybrid cars to become affordable, or they may be waiting to pay off their last car so they can get a new one, or maybe they aren't convinced gas/electrric hybrid is the answer and are waiting for other alternative fuels.
Besides, I always got the impression that you really don't save that much money when you choose a hybrid over a regular engine. - dgh1973, on 10/12/2007, -9/+22"""
car manufactuers suck.
"""
No... Oil lobbyists suck. - Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Unless they, you know, USE the truck! :::shock horror:::
The whole blamed country isn't like the fashion ***** on the coasts who drive pickups / suvs for show.
Out here in "flyover country" they are USED. - Nerys, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12By many factors too. a VW TDI Jetta will get 52mpg (REAL WORLD 75mph AC running) On that British Car show Top Gear I think they did a marathon. Driving on normal highways to see how far they could really go and got a real world 52mpg in the jetta.
IT can also run BioD and even VEG oil if your really adventurous
It will also last half a million miles without batting an eye if taken care of properly and probably outlive YOU. and retain awesome resale value compared to a Hybrid which will have ZERO resale value once people learn what they are buying.
Hybrids are a CON to make people FEEL GOOD while doing absolutely NOTHING to help the environment compared to other equivalent cars.
The only HYBRID worth buying is an EV with hybrid CAPACITY. ie give me a 120 mile range EV with IC backup that I can PLUG and CHARGE and I will be all over that *****.
Till then I prefer not to be ripped of... - RobbieS, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12@deepdiggdude
Wouldn't those saving have more to do with you going from a luxury SUV to a car? You'd experience more savings if you switched to any other economy car. Probably similar savings if you went after a mid-sized sedan. - Nerys, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13If you would have upgraded to a TDI VW you would have spent less and saved even more money while retaining resale value.
- Nerfdude, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15give me a break. there are diesel cars that get upwards of 70MPG, and aren't the complicated mess that hybrids are. i'm sure everybody's going to love their Prius in five years when it starts needing repairs.
- Nerys, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9This is true. people WANT electric cars once they truly understand what an electric car means. They want them SO BADLY they offered to pay MILLIONS to buy the last few in existance. They crushed them anyway.
Companies are NOT in Business to give us what we want. They are in business to make as much PROFIT as possible. I do not fault them for this but I do fault them when this profiteering is at our expense.
Pure EV cars are extraordinarily usable and affordable. the NIMH battery pack was DESIGNED for EV cars it was designed so that it would last roughly 100-150k miles and only cost $4500 to replace (LESS than a rebuild on an IC engine) the Cars were so well built and SO extraordinarily low maintenance that they realized that they would lose there entire after market after purchase profit sources and we are not even talking about the losses to oil companies and interests
THIS is why they KILLED the EV1 even though virtually EVERY single person who HAD one loved it with a passion they realized they would make SIGNIFICANTLY less money. Figure that a product that will actually last forever (essentially) What a thought.
They could not kill it fast enough. They want to maintain there current profit sources.
THAT is why we do not have the Electric Cars we demand without even knowing it (they ERASED them completely and totally)
Things like the Telsa Roadster are nice but useless cause no one has 92k to buy a car. The EV1 pretty much anyone could afford and because of there LOW maintenance LONG life and CHEAP Battery Pack replacement costs the USED market for them would have been SOLID by about now.
120 mile range is MORE than sufficient for 99% of us. I have a 54 mile commute to work and even "I" could use an EV WITHOUT a recharge inbetween and I CAN plug in at work. and 120mile was the EARLY (lead acid) models the later NIMH models approached 200 miles (170 IIRC)
WHO HERE needs more than 170 miles round trip for there day to day activities ?
What percentage of drivers drive a car for 100k or 150k miles ? Most would probably not even ever have it long enough to have to replace the battery pack.
The Electric Motor is so stinking big and well built it will probably NEVER fail in multiple lifetimes. and besides the normal stuff (tires brakes lights etc..) are virtually non wearing and will last nearly forever.
Convert to LED lighting and you even remove THAT maintenance issue.
I could see entire businesses to fundamentally modify cars because now people will have a REASON to hang onto a car for LIFE (another LOSS for the car industry another reason to never build a car like this from a profit perspective)
I could see sub frames being totally generic and standardized and just updating the "body" every now and then. Imagine going into a dealership and "buying" a new car. you drive your EV in they pop off the top half drop on your new model design and you drive away in the same car with a new shell. for a fraction of the cost (they could even work is so the PROFIT margins stay the same)
Its the future but its a dead future. I think Open Source could eventually do it but it needs enough FINANCIAL backing to be practical ALL you have to do is get ENOUGH of them on the road to get the publics tastebuds wet then the people will actively and openly demand it.
We Americans WANT this we just do not KNOW we want it. They prefer it that way. - CandidCanon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Hybrids don't save money in the long run either. And they are not environmentally friendly at all. The lifetime costs of the average hybrid are greater than those of the average SUV. This includes the cost of disposal that the consumer is not likely to see. It's an incredibly expensive gimmick.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13people aren't going to pay an extra 10 or15 thousand on a car just to get 10 extra miles to the gallon. especially when they KNOW that a)there are many other technologies being developed, and b)now a days its is very likely that one of those technologies will replace the hybrid, and possibly gas powered vehicles all together. until auto manufacturers develop a new technology that consumers trust will work better than current tech, and that will be cheaper, people will use fossil fuels until it becomes too much of a financial burden to do it anymore.
- bobcrotch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Oh get off your high horse.
Do you realize that some people need to have trucks to work? Contractors, ranchers, lots of different people.
Now I completely disagree with all the douche bags who put a big lift kit and big tires on their truck/suv with no intention of ever using it off road. All that does is decrease an already horrible fuel economy. - 13B1303, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Hang on while I fire up my V8 powered kitten fueled air compressor....
If you have ever worked with pneumatics, not to mention extremely high pressure pneumatic systems, you would know how inefficient the power transfer is. Air doesn't compress itself to 10,000psi - popflop, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Yeah, when I can buy a plug in hybrid (why the *%#! can't I?!) I'll think about buying a hybrid.
- sroberson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Actually, Toyota sold more hybrids last month than they ever have before. When this author from the Detriot News talks about 'hybrid' cars, she's talking about how the Ford Focus and it's higher-priced fraternal-twin the Mercury Mariner isn't selling. They barely get 30 mpg, while it's easy to get 50+ in a Prius.
But yeah, electric is the future. All electric EV that gets 100 miles to the charge and I'm all over it. For longer trips, I'd like a biodiesel generator, thank you very much. - Muyoso, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12Part of the reason environmentalism has never caught on, is because instead of going to good solutions, they try and take us on these baby steps. Instead of moving towards hydrogen cars, we have these crappy hybrids (I worked for Toyota) which are slow, ugly, and TERRIBLE for the environment. Instead of moving to LED light bulbs, we have these CFL lightbulbs which contain high amounts of mercury and still use a lot of energy. Instead of reducing energy use, we have "carbon credits". Basically, all environmentalism is just to make yourself feel good. You arent actually doing anything good for the environment, you are just putting on the false face of caring. Carbon credits dont solve anything, they are an excuse. CFL bulbs and Hybrids cause more problems then they solve.
- bobcrotch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Candidcanon is right.
What do you think is going to happen to all these hybrids with these huge battery arrays in 10-15 years? Most people who buy new vehicles keep them on average of 2-5 years before turning over to another new model. So at least they will get 2 fairly decent life cycles.
Plus would you really be willing to buy a prius with 100K + miles on it thats 5 years old? All I can think about is very expensive maintenance, wiring, ultra complex electrical systems, eventually replacing batteries in the battery array.
Sure they're a good idea but right now just with most other 'green' fads they're mostly hype.
The best thing you can do for the environment is to drive the least amount as possible. - hmphargh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Because you really need a hybrid to have an efficient car...my car gets 38 mpg in the city and 40+ mpg on the highway.
- IllBeBack, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13I have one of those 30 grand Hybrid Camrys. It looks exactly like all other Camrys, which was a major selling point for me.
Love it. Awesome car. - oxyfx, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8This really isn't surprising those who have the budget and can afford a nice hybrid car aren't effected as much by the rising gas prices. Those who really need a hybrid due to the rising fuel costs can't afford one.
- jmpeagle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6hybrids are the fastest growing segment of the vehicle market. There is currently a bottleneck in the batteries that car manufacturers buy plus they are constantly switching technologies from cadmium to nickel batteries and the like. In 2005 hybrids accounted for just under 1% of sales, 2006 hybrids accounted for 1.5%...that's over a 50% increase...sounds like a pretty big response also. Sales of the Toyota Yaris also for example are going through the roof and it is a compact that gets 40 mpg and unlike hybrids is really cheap at about 12,000 dollars. Right now the savings on gas plus the small federal tax credit barely allow a purchaser to break even compared to a non-hybrid. As gas goes up more, more hybrids will be bought.
- nex9, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5My old car broke in a big way this past January, and I got a Prius. I'd say it's a good car, not a great car. Still, much nicer to drive than my wife's Corolla. Cost me $23k out the door - no sales tax on hybrids here in Connecticut, plus I should get about $1000 back from the feds on next year's taxes. Gas prices are pretty high here, about $3.15 for regular. I've been getting about 44 mpg in the winter, 52 mpg now that it's warmed up. I'd be the first to admit that it's not perfect - could definitely use a few more horsepower. I also agree that a lot of hybrids on the road aren't worth it? 38 MPG in a Honda hybrid? Not too impressive.
I've heard that the nimh batteries are recyclable - not sure why someone here posted that they use lead acid batteries. I didn't buy it because I'm a treehugger or I thought I'd save big bucks, but I wanted to support a company that's actually advancing auto technology, and actually putting their R&D into use. I certainly hope I don't have a smug/pretentious attitude about it - it's only a car, after all. Drive whatever you want. I've heard the next generation prius (due out in 2009) will be a bit cheaper, have more horsepower, and get significantly better mpg.
The VW TDI diesel that people are mentioning sounds pretty good - I took a quick look on Edmunds and don't see them... do they sell these in the US, and how much are they? I'm surprised auto makers haven't more aggressively marketed diesels in general... - Simcom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Pure electric cars are the future, ***** hydrogen and gasoline - as batteries get better, and renewable electricity gets cheaper - electric cars will win in the end.
- compubike, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I ride my bicycle in to work most days.
- offwithyourtv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm still waiting on a good full electric car.
- MindTrigger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Until they build a hybrid towing vehicle for my camper/toy hauler/boat, I won't be buying one. I did go ahead and get my TerraPass stickers for both mine and my wifes vehicles though. I know that doesn't really negate my pollution, but it does provide more funds for companies that are cleaning up pollution in other ways.
I feel quite good. In the last few years my family has taken great strides in conservation at home including recycling, reusing, CFLs, and we even planted our first garden. I'm not giving up my tow vehicle though. - sharkmeister, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The Prius hybrid gas-electric mid-size sedan posted best-ever April sales of 13,056, an increase of 71.8 percent.
- FastZ, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6When they make a hybrid monster truck or a hybrid car that runs in the NHRA, then I might think about it. But until then, I will be fine driving my 5.7L gasoline-powered HEMI around town, getting about 11mpg. $30 at the pump for the cheap stuff gives me about half a tank....
However, the price of gas really doesnt bother me. The jacked up price of cigarettes is what's getting me lately! - ddxChrist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Gas prices would have to be much higher to warrant hybrid car purchases. Anyone who takes the time to crunch the numbers quickly discovers the economical futility of such a transaction.
- UrbanVoyeur, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Give it time. The economic benefits of hybrids and pure electrics will catch up and surpass the "feel good" environmental benefits. 5-7 years to parity. 10-15 to clearly surpass.
- Nerys, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3TODAY EV wins its 6 times more effecient to run your car 100 miles on power from the grid than it is from Gasoline MINIMUM.
so EVEN if our power came from polluting power plants its 6 times LESS pollution. A lot easier to control pollution from a few thousands power plants than it is from 10's of millions of cars.
BUT EV means FAR FAR less profits for the manufacturers. Hence why we do not have them. - IEatHamburgers, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I hope you're not planning any family trips, hard to keep all the kids on the cycle and not get pulled over by the cops...
- robbiedo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I just don't see the savings benefit when diesel gives you nearly the same benefits.
- thurows, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Current car = gas + insurance
Hybrid = gas + insurance + car payment - BionicBeefpile, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3From Toyota's April sales figures:
"The Prius hybrid gas-electric mid-size sedan posted best-ever April sales of 13,056, an increase of 71.8 percent"
http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2007/05/01-1-sales.html
How about the March numbers?
"The Prius hybrid gas-electric mid-size sedan posted all-time best-ever monthly sales for the second consecutive month with 19,156 units sold, an increase of 133.2 percent"
http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2007/04/03-1-sales.html
As you can tell from the description of March, the February numbers were up as well.
The article simply says that people still buy more trucks and SUVs than hybrids. It doesn't give relative changes in sales for each. The language is poorly (or deviously) chosen so that even if there were a 50% drop in SUV sales and a 50% climb in hybrid sales, as long as there were more SUVs sold by number, the statement would still be accurate.
Unfortunately the article is not. Buried as such. - SavageBlackCat, on 10/12/2007, -12/+15Hybrids have too many mechanical issues and no guts.
- VAPerson, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Their not even that great for the environment if you only consider tailpipe emissions. Some of the early hybrids like the Insight and Civic hybrid (first version) had a very poor emissions rating (tier 2 bin 9). They were actually dirtier than most regular cars. The state of Virginia fell for the marketing or never bothered to check the data and now we have these cars driving around with clean special fuel plates and getting to drive in the HOV without the required number of passengers. So they are dirty and the state gives an incentive to drive more. Great situation!
Most of the more recent ones have decent emissions but nothing much better than other cars (not counting CO2 emissions). . Most hybrids get the AT-PZEV rating but this the same as PZEV and plenty of "regular" cars are PZEV rated.
I'm glad to see all the negative comments here because it means people are finally catching on and seeing through the hype. - autorock, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11If you really cared about the environment, you'd commute by bicycle or use public transportation. Hybrids are false activism; you claim you care about the planet, but not enough to inconvenience yourself with a significant impact on your lifestyle. At the end of the day, a hybrid is still a car. Cars and the American car culture are the problem. Selling your SUV and buying (consuming, yet another car!) a hybrid is pointless if you are trying to be part of the solution.
Well, I'm off to ride my bike home from work. I'll be sure to wave as I pass hybrids and Hummers alike, both stuck in gridlock. - bobcrotch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Actually most major cars you can get from manufactures come as a hybrid as an option. Camary, 4runner, Civic, Accord, Silverado 2500/1500, Ford Escape (2wd) all come as hybrids optionally.
It's just that they all still pretty much suck. They don't make much of a difference when compared to normal fuel efficient motors. - gharding, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@autorock:
Rock on. I haven't bought a gallon of gasoline in about two years. I use electric-powered public transportation! -
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