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70 Comments
- lhnz, on 10/12/2007, -5/+50Yes. Correct. Scientists work for money.
- itistoday, on 10/12/2007, -19/+51The anti-environmentalist attitude on digg is kinda revolting. It's a simple fact, has nothing to do with politics: we need to ensure the health of our environment or we will eventually die out. Seriously, I'm not being "alarmist", I'm not "fear-mongering", that's just the plain and simple truth, and if you disagree with it, it just means you haven't really thought hard enough about it. We are ***** it up, and so we need to do something if we wish to live in a habitable world.
I'm not even going to justify these comments with a long rant and explanation because that's how obvious the thing is. If you need clarification perhaps someone else will help you out. Like.. try a college professor or something, but yeah, they're all part of the conspiracy too, so I guess you're stuck. - Desolite, on 10/12/2007, -4/+31STOP PEEING IN THE OCEAN PEOPLE!!!
- mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Google is your friend.
http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2005/July/01070501.asp
The average pH of the oceans will fall by up to 0.5 units by 2100 if global emissions of CO2 continue to rise at present rates, report leading researchers. Surface oceans currently have an average pH of 8.2.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=169
Acidifying the ocean is particularly detrimental to organisms that secrete shell material made of CaCO3, such as coral reefs and a type of phytoplankton called coccolithophorids [Kleypas et al., 1999]. The ocean pH change will persist for thousands of years. Because the fossil fuel CO2 rise is faster than natural CO2 increases in the past, the ocean will be acidified to a much greater extent than has occurred naturally in at least the past 800,000 years
http://www.agiweb.org/geotimes/dec04/NN_acidocean.html
Indeed, ocean pH has dropped by 0.1 units (thereby increasing acidity) since pre-industrial times due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations, says Royal Society working group member Ken Caldeira of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory’s Climate and Carbon Cycle Modeling Group. - Railer, on 10/12/2007, -27/+37"says more research is urgently needed to assess the impact of ocean acidification."
= OK scared the hell out of you. Now Gimme more money!!!!
Welcome to environmentalism 101 - EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Scientists do work for money, but it's unfair to say that's what motivates them. Scientists could make far more money working for Exxon or Monsanto than they could dream of making in Environmental Science. The scientists are trying to make a difference. It's OK to disagree with the science (that's part of what science is about) but don't demonize the scientists themselves.
- SmokedL, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8It's absolutely amazing to me how people manage to swallow the idea that the overwhelming majority of scientists in the world, for economic gain, joined together in a huge conspiracy to fool people into the belief that we have environmental problems.
It's so absurd it's simply laughable. But still the argument is brought up time and time again by people that are either horribly ignorant, or simply bought shills. Judging by diggs here, it apparently works.
Sad. Just sad. - growler1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I am so very tired of ignorant people throwing rocks at science.
- Altotus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I'm not sure where you learned your chemistry... But the ocean's a giant buffer solution (in the chemical sense) solution. Altering the pH of it should already be extremely difficult because of the volume, but actual measurable decreases in the pH planet-wide is almost unthinkable.
I haven't read the article yet, but if it were true, then it's some seriously bad news. Not that there's a whole bunch of sea-life left (comparatively speaking), but just a couple tenths of a pH point would wipe out a good portion of the microorganisms, cnidaria, and coral. - brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Haven't you heard? The cure for heartburn is more acid! It's a medical secret that "they" don't want you to know about! It's all in my book for $29.95
- Coffeedemon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"as there is no money in saying that the 1 degree increase in the last 100 years could be a natural occurence"
Tell that to the republican lobbyists. - Rikkochet, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5http://blog.ronshimek.com/?p=180
From a well known marine biologist...
In summary, the drop in ocean pH is causing weakening and dissolving coral skeletons.. Coral reefs die = lots more dies. - mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8@vandread
No, I just find fatalism and knee jerk dismissal of scientific findings annoying, and I associate that with fundamentalist religionism mainly. - mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Yes, why should we be interested in what science has to offer? Please ignore all this and continue reading your Bible.
- mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I dugg this post up because it's the best parody of an ignorant dumbf*ck in this discussion.
- bengarland, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5God, you guys are ***** stupid for a bunch of nerds and techno-dweebs. You don't understand how increased CO2 in the atmosphere can acidify the ocean?
Look up carbonic acid and its dissociation properties. - techweenie1, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11"The Death to all Sea Life in 50 years trick didn't work...let's try it again but throw acid in to the mix...yeah that's the ticket!!"
- sulthernao, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Your a dumb ass. The ocean is basic right now, so diluting it makes it more acidic.
- rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Illogical argument.
If you claim that human's alteration of natural processes should be viewed as part of the natural selection process, then, logically, human efforts to ameliorate the effects should also be considered a naturla part of evolution.
And, if you claim that it would be unnatural for humans to intervene to save their environment, then, logically, our technologically-driven harm to the environment is also not a part of natural selection.
Either way, the argument is illogical (not to mention dishonest, since it is just another part of the whole climate-change-denial movement, which, since it is fundamentally anti-science, should not dishonestly use scientific terminology and theory to substantiate its unscientific arguments). - chriskzoo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Actually, phosphates egnerally yield hydroxide ions (bases) not hydrogen ions (acids). Nice try though.
- mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Here's an interesting pdf on the subject http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/displaypagedoc.asp?id=13314. Is it just me, or do others also prefer Acrobat Reader 5 to anything of the later releases? Later versions seem slow and bloated to me.
Anyway, here's an excerpt,
Surface oceans have an average pH globally of about 8.2 units. However, pH can vary by ±0.3 units due to local, regional and seasonal factors.
GLODAP). Surface values range from 7.9 to 8.25 with a mean value of 8.08 (Sabine personal communication). The lowest values are observed in upwelling regions (eg Equatorial Pacific, Arabian Sea) where subsurface waters with lower pH values are brought to the surface. The highest values are observed in regions of high biological production and export. In these regions DIC is converted into organic carbon by phytoplankton and exported by the biological pump into the deeper oceans resulting in higher pH values in the surface waters. - imorgan82, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Ok. I sit here and read the dialogue on science articles and bite my tongue, but this is retarded. If you are not a person with an education, or concept of basic chemistry and biology, then shut the ***** up.
Please stop throwing out random, meaningless factoids such as this gem:
"Big ***** Deal. You know that you're covered with acid right now. Your skin has a ph of 5. A little acid can be a good thing."
Anyone who understands acid/base chemistry should not have a problem understanding why this is a problem. You might not like environmentalists. You're entitled to that. However, perturbing pH in aqueous solution is the single best way to make the chemistry of life STOP WORKING. Disagree with the finding that pH of the ocean is changing. Fine. Know that when you question the relevance of pH, you are basically raising your hand and letting everyone know you have no ***** clue what you're talking about. - Dufresne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3try and think of one good quality of the earth that we aren't destroying.
- dWhisper, on 10/12/2007, -10/+13Wasn't this one overed on an episode of *****? Overall, the acidity of rainwater and runoff has been down over the last twenty years, as I remember. But pH is far more complicated then this tripe.
I'm all for preserving the environment. Cutting down on polution isn't a bad thing, when the purpose is cutting down on polution. Scare tactics, on the other hand, aren't the way to go. This is no different from telling everyone we'll be out of oil in twenty years (they've been saying that since the 50s), that nuclear power will save or kill us all (since the 40s), or that the world will end (wasn't it supposed to happen in August)? Ultimately, someone ends up wrong, and people turn away.
I just wish people would spend time looking at the real information and facts, not this sensationalist garbage. - Surfer51, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5You have to be really dumb to believe this.
Salt, the oceans are full of it. Sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-)
Chloride, in the form of hydrochloric acid (HCl), Acid is a norm in varied concentrations. I do know that salt
acts as a eutectic flux, and you could expect clinker formation. It does
however depend on how your gasifier is configured. I do not know of an easy dioxin test, but if there is any condensable tar
around, or you have a lot of CH4 in the gas analysis, then you will have a
potential to make more acid. Can I get a Gov grant to study this more?... - siodine, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I don't see what the problem is, can't we just pour tons of baking soda in the ocean to neutralize the acid?
- RationalBeaver, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Acid Ocean would be a great name for a band.
- dantidote, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Simple Fix: Giant TUMS Tablets. I'm sure the ocean doesn't like heartburn
- sideshowRAHEEM, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2as long as the acid doesn't affect the taste of that yummy salt water, i don't see the problem. i tell ya i could drink that stuff all day.
- willcode4beer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Jesus, I don't get why people pollute so much"
Posted on a computer, containing microchips, one of the manufacturing industrys highest polluters powered by electricity from polluting powerplants. - XZanatos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@hypoxide
speaking of environmental matters in general: "infinite complexity" doesn't make extinct species come back to life, "infinite complexity" doesn't make acid rain (not just from CO2) dissapear, "infinite complexity" doesn't make all the bad things happening go away.
You can fool yourself with phrases like "infinite complexity" if you like, meanwhile they had to cancel commercial salmon fishing this year in my State because their numbers are about 2% what they were before commercial fishing began about 100 years ago. - SmokedL, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm sure the scientists that spend their lives studying these things will be amazed they never thought of that!
/Sarcasm - jonathono2000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I think that the world is just fine the way it is as well. Yeah some stuff is dying off but God gave man dominion over all life so if some ***** dies because they fail to get in line with our marvelousness then that is what god commanded. It is our world to ***** up as we please.
/sarcasm
The world does seem fine now but my personal theory is that we are teetering on the edge of a very slippery slope. That is to say that up to a certain point the earth is going to take everything we can dish out but there will be time when we reach critical mass and it is all going to go to hell in a handbasket at once. Sure there are some warning signs and we should be doing something to change it all now but people don't want to hear that. Change makes people uncomfortable. It is going to take something very drastic to alter peoples perceptions and by that time it will probably be too late. What makes it even more difficult is that there is no way to predict when we will hit critcal mass, it could be tomorrow or a hundered years from now. For most people a 50/50 on having to endure some kind of hardship in their life is not enough to get them to realize change is for the better. And don't even get started with that "What about our kids?" ***** because that hasn't changed anyone's mind yet and its not going to. - SmokedL, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@hypoxide
1. Please learn about the difference between weather and climate.
2. Infinite complexity does not exists, it's just a fantasy term to make your hand-waving denial of science appear to be backed by anything but ignorance.
I suggest you actually do some reading about what scientist have to say about these things rather than going back for more disinformation from whatever ignoramus you have been getting your ideas from.
Here is a site run by actual climate scientists for your reading pleasure. http://www.realclimate.org/ - SmokedL, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, thats right.
The huge majority of scientists in the world, a group made up of thousands and thousands of individuals that choose a path that is intellectually stimulating, but hardly ever very lucrative. This huge diverse group of people with the common goal of finding out more about the truth of how the world works. This group of people all got together one day and all collectively decided to hoodwink the rest of the world into believing that we have environmental problems so that they would get research grants.
That's what happened.
Really. - bigtomrodney, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It's a fair point. It's quite difficult to regulate the pH and electrolyte levels of a 70 litre aquarium. The sea is a bit bigger than 70 litres.
- sworoc, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3This sounds closer to being real than global warming, even if they are connected. When you tell me it's going to get warmer, I'm indifferent. When you say the ocean is going to become more acidic, I get nervous.
- mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5And your credentials are...?
- sonofagunn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@SmokedL - I agree, although it should be pointed out that, on the other side, there are people who are just as crazy and convinced that Pres. Bush, Exxon, Saudi Arabian royalty, GM execs, and the rest of the Republicans are sitting around in a room smoking cigars and deciding oil prices, keeping the water-powered car a secret, hiding the 100 mpg carbureter, staging fake terrorist attacks, etc., etc.
Face it, there are wackos at the extreme left and the extreme right. The furthest you can get away from the wackos is to be in the middle. I'm a hardcore centrist. If you are more left or right than I am, that just means you're a little closer to being a wacko. - Nipplelesshorse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Its about time we start operation watery freedom by dropping as much NaOH into the ocean as we can.
- phonest, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2More than one scientist is claiming it. Start pooping.
- MellerTime, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2So's my stomach, now that I'm worrying about the poor poor oceans... Thanks a lot, ya baestids!
- Tatootian, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Jesus, I don't get why people pollute so much. Guess it's human nature now. Doesn't really matter to anyone I guess. We should probably remove Global Warming and the pollution of water from the number of ways how we're going to die.
*crosses out global warming and pollution*
Millions of other ways to die... - justinfuralook, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0My book reputes your suggestion it is available to those interested at just $15.99, well it will be as soon as you all send me $15.99 and I can afford to hire a ghost writer
ps. I like the speel check makesme look good - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11. swim in the ocean
2. acid induced 3rd degree burns
3. ???
4. profit until 2048!!! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Unlike global warming the process which makes the oceans acidic is actually well understood.
The current ocean pH is 8.3, due to the equilibrium between bicarbonate & carbonate in the sea, and the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. As the carbon dioxide concentration rises, the equilibrium is shifted, lowering the pH of the sea.
The pH of the sea is expected to drop by about 1 unit, which is sufficient that solid calcium carbonate (which makes up f.ex. the skeletons of corals, and the shells of mussels and snails) will start to dissolve.
The biggest effect will be on coral reefs. Lower pH means that corals will have to work harder to build and maintain their skeletons, and this at a time when the corals are already reeling under the dual punch of rising water temperature and rising water level.
One would predict a shift away from the present hexacoral-dominated reefs, to algae-and-octocoral-dominated reefs.
Now you can all go ahead and bury my comment for not having a single ***** sci-fi reference in it. - rationalist, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2oops - meant to digg mutatron up, hit wrong button.
- willcode4beer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1excellent point.
The evidence of global warming is pretty shaky. The evidence of CO2 rise can be verified by a high school student. Coorelating CO2 rise to a pH drop in the ocean would be much more significant than a temperature rise. - gardnert1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3i like how they have a link to Nostradamus' prediction of WWIII. The Anti-Christ!!! Oh noes!
- fizgigtiznalkie, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3why don't they say what the PH was and what it is now if this is a real concern.
basic chemistry dictates any acid formed what react with organic matter almost immediately and neutralize itself -
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