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110 Comments
- sfrench, on 01/30/2009, -1/+60Sounds to me, that with the exception of a few missteps, they have been pretty good about their practices. From the article:
"In California, the scouts have almost always followed forestry rules in harvesting timber on more than 6,200 acres of land they own, according to public records. They have done no clear-cutting and mainly conduct relatively small "selection" harvests, in which loggers pick each tree to be cut." - unit001, on 01/30/2009, -11/+65Its their land and its their call. If you're so unhappy about how they use it, buy it from them.
- badqat, on 01/31/2009, -9/+55Yeah, the BSA have no right to use their land how they see fit...sheesh...apparently you missed the part where THEY OWN THE LAND!
- inactive, on 01/31/2009, -5/+43Title is very misleading. There's a big difference between clearcutting a hillside and selectively removing trees with low-impact equipment. Sounds like sensationalist bullcrap.
- ousthouse, on 01/31/2009, -0/+25Nothing wrong with commercial logging as long as it's done correctly.
- reverant, on 01/31/2009, -18/+42As an Eagle Scout - I have no problem with this. You left wing eco-nazis need to get a life.
In fact we need more logging of this sort to help prevent forest fires. - warbrain, on 01/31/2009, -3/+19There's nothing wrong with this. Many scout camps operate as tree farms as well as camps. They need some other source of income outside of a few months of activity each year.
Look at it this way - the land that they own for the camp would otherwise be developed or used for farming in some cases. Which is better - preserved forest with modest logging or complete destruction of the land for the sake of farming a few crops?
I'll admit that I'm coming from a biased opinion on this - I am an Eagle Scout. There are many things I hate about the organization - the homophobia, the religion, the growing Whiteness of the organization, the cost, the ***** politics - but there are good things that the Boy Scouts do and preserving land is one of them. Think of all the land that is preserved in some form because the local councils own the land. - shasty55, on 01/31/2009, -4/+19uh oh! its a slightly conservative organization. ATTACK!
- Zera, on 01/31/2009, -11/+26I'm an Atheist Eagle Scout, and it seems the BSA is doing a careful job in this instance.
I'm far more concerned with the extreme religious right (Mormons) continuing to take over the management of the boy scouts (at the national level) since the early 80's. They've already made policies against homosexuals and Atheists, neither of which were policies that Scouting has ever stood for in the past. In 1997 they even added a merit badge that has a religion component! WTF!?! I'd much rather the Scouts earn their own money through methods like growing trees than for the government to give them money and services and be complicit in funding a private organization that illegally excludes certain citizens.
I ask that you (the educated public) recognize that the BSA's evil policies are temporary and that many of us are working to change those policies from the inside. - bcorder, on 01/31/2009, -2/+16Lame attack for an organization that is very pro-environment. Seriously, you can't go to the woods and not have an impact.
"Santa Cruz County Health Services Agency cited evidence that the scouts were allowing vehicles on the dirt roads during wet weather, which causes erosion."
do you only camp in good weather and drive on highways… - colonelpanic, on 01/31/2009, -3/+16Another Eagle Scout checking in. First off, it is rightfully their land, they can do what they will with it. Secondly, I am going to bury this article, as the title is severely misleading. Please don't associate the actions of a few district executives with a terrific organization that has created some of the greatest leaders of our nation.
- kronzdigg, on 01/31/2009, -22/+34Please the LEFT HAS GONE COMPLETELY NUTS!
- gotamd, on 01/31/2009, -2/+13Good for them. It sounds like they're acting very responsibly. Trees are like other plants. If you want more of them, you plant them. They are not clear-cutting swaths of land or doing anything else which seriously damages the environment. Take this sensationalist crap somewhere else.
- inactive, on 01/31/2009, -10/+21They don't have the right to do as they please with it, only the ecoweenies have the right to decide what is allowed!!
- ZestyNinja, on 01/31/2009, -0/+11Buried for bashing the Pacific Skyline Council. Also, this is far from commercial logging.
- BidKhan, on 01/31/2009, -2/+12I am an Eagle Scout as well, and having majored in Forest Management, I agree with Tyrghast...First of all 'Logging' and 'Forestry' are not one in the same...Forestry is a practice that is based on a management plan for that particular tract based on science and many years of knowledge passed down, while logging is one operation in the management plan for that particular tract...Loggers are just there to make money off of the timber, while a forester is trained to manage the land according to the principles of conservation and sustainability...Many trees are actually adapted to and do well with fire, and controlled burns are often a tool used in the management plan (example: serotinous cones of some gymnosperms)...
No offense 'reverant', but your statement is blatantly ignorant (I'm sure you are a great guy and smart), but I just want to clarify this as anyone involved in forestry or natural resource management will almost surely agree.
Peace - ChiefUCF, on 01/31/2009, -2/+12From a San Francisco paper? That could NEVER happen....
- limpits, on 01/31/2009, -1/+11Tyrghast,
from the article: "the scouts retained licensed foresters to prepare their logging plans and employed professional lumberjacks."
Scouts are very good at being cautious in nature, we are very careful, and we have reason to be. If we destroy our forested lands then we no longer have a place to camp out, have fun, and set ***** on fire... There really isn't much to be furious about, it seems more like some extremists have been bitching and moaning about a few exceptions and now the media picked it up. - Moosecapade, on 01/31/2009, -1/+10Here is the BSA's response to this incredibly slanderous article:
http://www.scouting.org/response.aspx
I come from the Redwood Empire Council mentioned at the end of the article. I am a long time Scout and Scouter, and I know half of the people on the Council Executive Board, including the property manager Lee McCann. Logging Camp Masonite Navarro was probably the last thing that we wanted to do to the camp, but the fact of the matter was that it was something that we had to do. If we did not reap the $128,000 from logging the camp, we would have had to sell off both of our offices rather than just one. No one wanted to cut down the trees, and I really wish that the trees were still there, but if we did not cut down those trees, our council would have collapsed.
Local councils are selling land, logging, and selling entire camps in order to stave off bankruptcy. Our council currently runs a $200,000/year deficit. We are projected to go bankrupt and be absorbed by another council in the next four years because our endowment isn't large enough. Taking actions like these are the only things that we can do in order to continue to serve the youth within our council.
We all hate it, no one from national on down to the newest Tiger Cub wants to log or sell land, but it is something that local councils like Redwood Empire Council have to do in order to continue to support the youth because we do not get enough support from local communities. People do not give enough money to local councils anymore to support the endowments in the economy. Unfortunately it is a negative feedback loop because actions like these stop people from donating more, and then we have to take even more actions.
It is quite unfortunate that BSA complies with requests for interviews and then they put a horrible spin and omit tons of stuff, and our reasons for selling land and logging.
I urge everyone to download the PDF in the link I provided above and read about BSA's reasoning behind all of these actions. - Cojafoji, on 01/31/2009, -1/+10***** all you naysayers. The camp in my district (Resica Falls) signed a land grant trust, so that they give us 230 million, and we don't develop the land. Also, the rangers that take care of the reservations are very much in charge of what goes on there. They have the discretion, just as ANY park ranger, to trim a dying tree, to clear way for a path etc. The things they cut down might not have been there twenty years ago on an antiquated hiking trail. Get with it guys, this is all spun *****.
- jwbales, on 01/31/2009, -2/+10If the Scouts' use of their land is not damaging the property of their neighbors, then it's no ones business, including the various State agencies. By the way, dirt washed into a stream is not pollution, and land owners have no obligation to provide habitat for animals, endangered or not.
- petebot, on 01/31/2009, -1/+9Totin' Chip. Idiot.
- kevinHaney, on 01/31/2009, -1/+8I am a Boy Scout and yes, I have taken logs from our councils land, BUT we had to carry the logs out by ourselves and we weren't allowed any power tools or trucks to help us with the process. Oh and those logs we carried for miles, were used to build a teepee because we couldn't afford the $800 it would have cost to ship logs in from Montana.
- twiztidsinz, on 01/31/2009, -1/+8Gotta capitalize the B
- kolobcreek, on 01/31/2009, -0/+7I say we wait and let the forests over grow themselves. Then let a forest fire clear them.
- chlyon, on 01/31/2009, -1/+8What next Girl scouts selling special cookies ?
- sockpuppets, on 01/31/2009, -9/+16I ate a brownie once.
- BidKhan, on 01/31/2009, -0/+7Point well taken.
- benjholla, on 01/31/2009, -1/+7Another Eagle Scout here (and Vigil OA member). The general public response to this article makes me sick. As a kid I was ridiculed for being a Boy Scout because I was always doing the "right thing". Why is it that so many people are so quick dump on the Boy Scouts whenever they get the chance? I don't agree with everything that is taught in the Boy Scouts or how it is organized, but I do know that it made me the person that I am today, and has helped me more than I could have ever imagined in my career.
- mdstanz, on 01/31/2009, -2/+8The downside of not cutting down trees is that you cannot have anything made of wood.
- warbrain, on 01/31/2009, -1/+7Let alone a Hearst paper...
- docbob84, on 01/31/2009, -0/+6Dude no offense but two questions: 1) did you type out the phrases "as an Eagle Scout" and "having majored in Forest Management" each time you posted them in the comments on this article, or did you copy/paste? 2) how many times DID you post the same thing anyway? I've counted three so far. The forest management thing isn't even relevant in this particular thread.
- Macattack15, on 01/31/2009, -1/+6Another Eagle Scout and Order of the Arrow member here, I too would like to say that these people honestly have no idea what they are talking about. I could go on for quite awhile about all the things they got blatantly wrong here but the most aggrieves of these is the relationship between Scouting at a national level and Scouting at a local level, they make it seem as though the national level organization is receiving money from the sale of these lands or the forestry on them, the only way the National council receives money is through scout dues (which are $10 a year) the sale of uniforms and the scouting magazine and from a cut of the salaries of local level officers. Scouting organizations at a local level are the ones that benefit from the sale and forestry of these lands, and the councils that make them up are almost completely comprised of volunteer adult scout leaders and scouts themselves who are encouraged to participate. Good forestry is one of the key principles of Scouting and even though some people do not understand it, cutting down trees is part of that, when the forest overcrowds vegetation on the forest floor suffers and new tree growth is stunted. Is Scouting hurting for money? Yes, at least my troop was when I made Eagle about 3 years ago, do the sale and forestry of these lands ultimately help scouting? Yes, Do I agree with all of the National Councils policies on gays and atheists, No, much of the time conflicts like this are left to the troop, we had at least one atheist family in our troop, and although the boy refrained from the verse "do my duty to god and my country" he was a welcome part of our troop. Sexuality on the other hand, I believe has no place in an organization like Scouting wether you are gay or straight, those kinds of questions should never come up, you have to understand that even if National council adopted a strict policy of open arms embracing gay scouts for example, at the age range we are talking with many would be ostracized or made fun of and the general nature of what we do as scouts and how scouting works probably would not be conducive to a mixed gay/straight community. I absolutely want to make it clear that I have nothing against gay scouts, if they want to join more power to them I would prefer a more tolerant society, just in all honestly, kids are cruel and right now it would be more trouble for them then it would be worth.
- inactive, on 01/31/2009, -3/+8Their hearts are in the right place, but I think the environmental criticism should be directed at companies that are actually carrying out clearcutting operations in old growth forests. Leave the Scouts alone. Right-leaning beliefs aside, it still teaches those kids the value of teamwork and effort.
Nothing against environmental awareness, but I really think this particular endeavor is a waste of time. - kolobcreek, on 01/31/2009, -0/+5I'm sure the boy scouts aren't doing it for the money.
- SPThom, on 01/31/2009, -0/+5*sigh* Things are in a sad state right now, aren't they? :(
Loyal, Friendly, Kind, Reverent... In the attempts to rebrand BSA as being first and foremost a Christian organization, people are throwing out at least a third of the Scout Law. At the same time, they--that particular denomination--perpetually dilutes the significance of obtaining Eagle Scout. Back east, where I got my Eagle, it would mean something of your character, something worth mentioning years later on resumés. Out here, where LDS troops are the norm and the highest rank seems to be handed out like a club membership, being an Eagle is a tell of little else but your religious affiliation.
I'm a believer--of what, I couldn't exactly tell you--probably something between deism and panentheism? But even when I was 16, going for Eagle, and still considering myself a good ol', "born again" Christian, I would have welcomed you into our troop. The powers that be in BSA would have us all think now that "reverence" was a virtue exclusive only to true believers, but I remember learning--and I bet if I pulled out my old handbook, it say almost verbatim--that reverence is not only about holding true to your own beliefs, but in wholly respecting and tolerating the beliefs of others.
Tolerance, although perhaps never taught explicitly, always seemed to be promoted in my experiences in Scouting--and it seemed to be a more significant lesson than any knot-tying or emergency preparedness or God & Country awards. Despite, yes, always having somewhat of a religious, even Christian undertone to the organization, I always thought of BSA as a liberal-minded organization. Some of my first discussions regarding evolution--which I was most certainly NOT learning about at school in Western Kentucky, were with my Scoutmaster and the other boys. And despite the sensationalism of this article, it's hard to find an organization with more of a mind of conservation and environmentalism than Scouting... (Albeit Scouts tend to be a bit more rational about environmental issues, probably because they actually spend so much time in the great outdoors.)
I do hope some progressive minds do return to the forefront of the organization before my kids come of age to join. - derbloodlust, on 01/31/2009, -0/+4I'll buy a whole case when they do.
- kronzdigg, on 01/31/2009, -0/+4its a good technique I use it often.
- warbrain, on 01/31/2009, -7/+11Your logic is asinine.
- Suricou, on 01/31/2009, -1/+5Some day I am going to find a story which is completly apolitical, and post a comment about how either 'the left' or 'the right' is crazy, just to find out how many diggs it gets.
- PhoenixReborn, on 01/31/2009, -0/+4He's a lumberjack and he's okay...
- Zera, on 01/31/2009, -0/+3Well, I foresee our nation become more and more secular, and as long as our numbers continue to grow, we will win this eventually. Great institutions like the BSA are only lost if those of us who protest their policies give up.
- tange1, on 01/31/2009, -2/+5How'd she taste? :-)
- beammeup4, on 01/31/2009, -1/+4Another Eagle Scout from the San Francisco Bay Area Council checking in with fond memories of Royaneh, Wente, and Los Mochos. (+1 for the Royaneh song!)
Commercial logging is kind of a misleading term I think. It's not like the BSA is selling the lumber. The land might be environmentally-sensitive, but it's scout-owned land so the BSA is well-aware of the issues of the land and are probably doing double their part to sustain it, whether through reforestry or awareness. - inactive, on 01/31/2009, -5/+8But allowing millions of acres to burn is "Natural" !!
- ToddsSpleen, on 02/03/2009, -0/+3"Your a dumbass." - TheMachine1
You went full retard. Never go full retard. - Cojafoji, on 01/31/2009, -4/+7I think that you'll find 99% of the local troops don't much like to involve sexuality, and religion into their troop meetings and camping trips. What the ***** in Texas do is not us. Remember that.
- jlgaddis, on 01/31/2009, -2/+5Boy Scouts do it in the woods.
- PacificStandard, on 01/31/2009, -1/+4It's Totin' "Chit". But I'll save the name calling since you're probably embarrassed already.
- PacificStandard, on 01/31/2009, -1/+4"It is with great reluctance that they allow non-christians to join at all."
- One of the principles the BSA believes in is being reverent, a trait that goes beyond Christianity. They also even offer special awards and programs for sharing one's religion with others. I don't know what ass backwards community you grew up in, or if you even participated in the BSA, but your little half witted attack wasn't based on anything credible. -
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