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BioDiesel: A Not So Green Alternative
masslogics.com — Oil prices are through the roof and with no relief in sight, a lot of environmental advocates are jumping on the biodiesel bandwagon. However, recent studies suggest that biodiesel might not be the “green” solution many are hoping for.
reed77- 746 diggs
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- trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -12/+69"According to the studies the process of clearing grasslands, rain forests, and other land for farming actually releases more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than would be saved by the fuel that the land produces."
Legalize hemp, problem solved. The problem with current biofuel is the sources we are using, not biofuel itself. Hemp can be grown anywhere, uses very little water, and produces 10 times as much ethanol as corn.
http://digg.com/environment/Hemp_Ethanol_Saves_the ...
http://www.hempcar.org/hempfacts.shtml- samoan27, on 06/26/2008, -4/+32Switchgrass can produce far more fuel than hemp, so can algae. While I don't think it should be illegal, I don't act like it's a miracle plant when in actuality it's inferior to other alternatives.
- marabout40, on 06/26/2008, -0/+19Algae has tremendous potential.
- greensky, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4don't forget Yeast too!
Leftovers after making Algae based bio-fuels can be made into food. Additionally Algae can be grown in salt water and also water with poor quality. - RobotBuddha, on 06/26/2008, -0/+5The guy who brings a good method of using yeast to market, stands to earn a lot of bread.
......*sigh* - trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2Where are we going to grow all the algea? In the ocean? Our lakes? Is it really feasable for large scale operations?
- ozid, on 06/26/2008, -1/+4"In the ocean? Our lakes?"
Um. YES. - trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -2/+2Ok, how are we going to collect it all? You really think boaters, swimmers and fishers are going to be happy with algea all over the place, and giant boats running around collecting it all? Would it be economical to plant extra algea in the ocean then collect it with slow moving boats that use lots of gas?
- davidrools, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3yes, it is feasible for large scale operations. They grow it in tanks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algaculture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
I saw a project in in operation that uses the CO2 emissions from a natural gas burning power plant and pipes it through clear enclosed tanks to grow algae. The growing algae captures the CO2 and, through the wonderful process of photosynthesis, releases oxygen and keeps the carbon to grow itself. Then they press and dry the algae, which can then be burned in the power plant! Sure, there are some inefficiencies, but it reduces the CO2 emissions from an otherwise polluting power plant and supplements its fuel. The net gain comes from the use of sunlight to drive photosynthesis - basically undoing the combustion process.
Carbon based fuels + oxygen -> [combustion + usable energy] -> CO2 + water -> [algal culture + sunlight] -> oxygen + carbon based fuel -> repeat - trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2So building enough tanks to support the energy needs of America is feasible on a large scale?
- ozid, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2boats already do the same thing for various foods... crabs, fish, shrimp. contract them to skim the water for algae. or you could have algae "power stations" for different regions. this is completely feasible.
we waste a lot money on things that are much more trivial. for instance, my dad who works for the county just got two computers that are both worth over 2000 dollars each, completely bleeding edge. he gets them every two years. completely unnecessary . - Farnn, on 06/27/2008, -0/+3Why is the CO2 taken from a factory? Why not simply let air surround the algae and have it take the CO2 from the air. There's no difference between the CO2 from the two sources.
- greensky, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4don't forget Yeast too!
- smurf22, on 06/26/2008, -1/+14Switchgrass can't be used for paper though. Once the oil from hemp is taken, the by product can be used as well. Switchgrass is just for ethanol.
- Trammel, on 06/26/2008, -12/+3Okay Mr. Crying Native American, we'll use every part of the plant as well as the animal so that we don't offend Mother Earth.
- whereiseljefe, on 06/26/2008, -0/+7Good point, gotta look at waste products too.
- Aldanga, on 06/26/2008, -1/+6Yes, let's stop those evil broods Conservation and Efficiency dead in their tracks!
/sarcasm - gn0stik, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3All good points. Hemp can be used for so much. However I don't understand why switchgrass couldn't be used for paper or other fiber products. It's quite fibrous. Both are very versatile plants. Also, is hemp illegal?I know you can farm it in vermont, and I still buy hemp rope in stores? I think it just can't be medicinal grade cannibis, which you have to be licensed to grow.
- trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4Hemp is still illegal to grow in the US. It is the strongest naturally occuring fiber in the world.
"Trees cut down to make paper take 50 to 500 years to grow, while hemp can be cultivated in as little as 100 days and can yield 4 times more paper over a 20 year period.
Until 1883, from 75-90% of all paper in the world was made with cannabis hemp fiber including that for books, Bibles, maps, paper money, stocks and bonds, newspapers, etc.
Hemp paper is longer lasting than wood pulp, stronger, acid-free, and chlorine free. (Chlorine is estimated to cause up to 10% of all Cancers.)
Hemp paper can be recycled 7 times, wood pulp 4 times."
http://www.hempcar.org/hempfacts.shtml
- trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -0/+5Can you provide citations for your claim that switchgrass can produce "far more fuel" than hemp?
"Switchgrass reaches its full yield potential after the third year planted, producing approximately 6 to 8 tons per acre; that is 500 gallons of ethanol per acre."
http://www.energyfarms.net/node/64
"Hemp is Earth's number-one biomass resource; it is capable of producing 10 tons per acre in four months."
http://www.hempcar.org/hempfacts.shtml
10 tons per acres in four months as opposed to 6-8 in 3 years. And yes, it is a miracle plant because it can be used for thousands of other things besides just ethanol. Why do you think they made it illegal?- Farnn, on 06/27/2008, -1/+2I have a problem trusting the information on hemp from a site called hempcar.org. Just as I mistrust information on the effects of oil production published by oil companies.
- trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2Right because it's all just a conspiracy, the people who made a biodiesel car are going to lie to you about hemp facts because they just want to legalize it to get high, right? Do you expect the DOE or MSM to release a report on hemp? Do some research, hempcar.org is not the only site saying that hemp produces close to 10 tons per acre or more.
- marabout40, on 06/26/2008, -0/+19Algae has tremendous potential.
- Tenlow, on 06/26/2008, -3/+9Biodiesel is not ethanol.
- trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -1/+4Really? You can make ethanol out of hemp as well, if you bothered to read either of the links.
- Rabbittt, on 06/27/2008, -1/+7You are correct, Johnny, biodiesel is not ethanol. You get biodiesel from organic oils. You get ethanol from organic sugars. You get both from hemp. Pop quiz in the morning.
- keltin, on 06/26/2008, -2/+2BFD. I'd want any individual to be independent of outside suppliers of food, energy, anything that they could use to control you.
That includes biodiesel.- trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4Then you should be for the legalizion of hemp. Grow your own fuel, fiber, and food in your back yard.
- davidrools, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3Water usage is a serious limitation to widespread adoption of biofuels. We're already strained on our water resources as it is. Farming and transportation of liquid fuels is also a significant detriment to its efficiency. I really think solar and wind power will dominate our energy future. Both are easily deliverable and can power homes and passenger cars. They are becoming more and more financially feasible and can be deployed almost anywhere in the country (even areas with limited sun and wind).
- trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2So you plan on forcing every current car owner to buy an electric car soon? I agree we need to switch to electric ASAP, but we also need to solve our current oil problem ASAP and cut our dependence on foreign oil, and petroleum in general. Water is not a problem with hemp because you can grow it anywhere it rains and it uses very little water compared to other crops.
- bullhead2007, on 06/26/2008, -0/+5I agree with legalizing hemp and marijuana.
However Biodiesel can be made from deep frier grease! You don't need to clear forrests!- trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -0/+6We are talking about ethanol as well, however I agree we should be using fryer grease. The only problem is that I'm sure there isn't enough fryer grease to supply our all of our diesel needs, and that's just diesel. You don't need to clear forests to grow hemp, you can grow it almost anywhere there is sun and a little bit of water.
- bullhead2007, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3Yeah I know we don't eat enough fried food to supply biodiesel. And yeah we definitely need to use plants like algae or hemp that will grow anywhere.
Like Arizona, we have like 10 million acres of desert. Let's use it! - trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -0/+3Heh, are you from Bullhead city? I'm from AZ as well. And amazingly, hemp can grow out in the desert. My friend lives near Apache Junction and found a pot plant growing in the desert near his house!
- Blandyman, on 06/27/2008, -0/+3WHAT'D HE DO, WHAT'D HE DO, WHAT'D HE DO?!
- bullhead2007, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3Yeah I know we don't eat enough fried food to supply biodiesel. And yeah we definitely need to use plants like algae or hemp that will grow anywhere.
- trumpydumpy, on 06/26/2008, -0/+6We are talking about ethanol as well, however I agree we should be using fryer grease. The only problem is that I'm sure there isn't enough fryer grease to supply our all of our diesel needs, and that's just diesel. You don't need to clear forests to grow hemp, you can grow it almost anywhere there is sun and a little bit of water.
- jabberwolf, on 06/27/2008, -0/+3So far switch grass and sugarcane ( for climates like brazil that can sustain it) actually DO have less carbon emissions.
What is neglected by the poster is that the crops are a source that absorbs carbon. It's basically close to neutral except aside from the harvesting and processing which is negligible compared to fossil fuels.- trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2The great thing about hemp is that it grows a lot faster than switchgrass and sugarcane, which provides for a faster cycle of production as well as offsetting carbon. Hemp is the best choice for biofuels and that is exactly why it is illegal (well that and all the other industrial uses)
I find it funny that most people believe cannabis is illegal because of its psychoactive properties. - yesec9, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1"What is neglected by the poster is that the crops are a source that absorbs carbon. It's basically close to neutral except aside from the harvesting and processing which is negligible compared to fossil fuels"
Wrong. Dense forests are so much more carbon negative than sprawling farm land. If all of our forests were cleared for farm land the farms would not nearly be able to absorb the CO2. - Farnn, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2The thing many don't take into account is what's called a "Carbon Debt". This is the amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere from both the above ground biomass as well as the carbon stored in the soil which leaves over the course of 50 years after deforestation. Biofuels are then tallied based on the amount of oil usage they replace and you can calculate how long it takes to pay off the debt. For things like corn based ethanol, it takes about 200 years, while for sugar cane it takes about 50 years. If you are replacing land to grow food you need to account for the forest that will be destroyed to produce more food. The only situations where the debt is payed off in less than 10 years, is when non-forested, non-farmed land is used to produce biofuel crops. And this land is usually only good for crops such as switchgrass.
- trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2Who is talking about deforestation? We have absolutely no need to remove forests to plant hemp. You could plant it in between trees if you wanted, or even on unused plains land. The non-forested, non-farmed land you talk about isn't only good for switchgrass, hemp is just as resilient of a crop and will grow in the same conditions as switchgrass.
- trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2The great thing about hemp is that it grows a lot faster than switchgrass and sugarcane, which provides for a faster cycle of production as well as offsetting carbon. Hemp is the best choice for biofuels and that is exactly why it is illegal (well that and all the other industrial uses)
- samoan27, on 06/26/2008, -4/+32Switchgrass can produce far more fuel than hemp, so can algae. While I don't think it should be illegal, I don't act like it's a miracle plant when in actuality it's inferior to other alternatives.
- Fangsinmybeard, on 06/26/2008, -14/+3Duh, ***** Einstain, can you count up to a hundred on both hands?
- BOFH2, on 06/26/2008, -1/+7Can you formulate a sentence?
- reed77, on 06/26/2008, -1/+8I wonder if the kids growing up called little Albert, "Einstain" too.
- mywhitenoise, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2No. I can only count up to 10 on my hands.
- samoan27, on 06/26/2008, -14/+63Blame the improper production of bio-fuels, not the bio-fuels themselves. Buried as propaganda.
- reed77, on 06/26/2008, -6/+10"Approved and toted as a “clean air” fuel, even a 20% biodiesel mix creates a significant reduction in CO2 emissions. The way biodiesel burns is not a point of concern. The way that it is currently being produced, may raise an environmentalist eyebrow or two."
The article clearly states its not the fuels but the production of the fuel that is a threat. Do you read before you bury?
Propaganda for a cleaner Earth? Maybe.- samoan27, on 06/26/2008, -2/+5Yes I do, and I did read this before I commented. Look at the title and structure of the article and ask yourself what the focus is. Let me give you a rundown:
"BioDiesel: A Not So Green Alternative"
What you quoted
"These studies warn that biodiesel may not be as green as it seems here’s why:"
What is it that the article is attacking? Now what does the word 'Propaganda' mean?- reed77, on 06/26/2008, -5/+5The article is attacking the harm that the rising demand for bio-fuels is causing to our environment.
Propaganda from wikipedia:
"Propaganda is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience."
As I said: "Propaganda for a cleaner Earth? Maybe." - jabberwolf, on 06/27/2008, -1/+2""Approved and toted as a “clean air” fuel, even a 20% biodiesel mix creates a significant reduction in CO2 emissions. The way biodiesel burns is not a point of concern. The way that it is currently being produced, may raise an environmentalist eyebrow or two."
Apparently you can't even read his short post yet alone the entire article.
- reed77, on 06/26/2008, -5/+5The article is attacking the harm that the rising demand for bio-fuels is causing to our environment.
- virtualme7, on 06/26/2008, -1/+5You just repeated what he said. It's propaganda from the right trying to discredit biofuels.
- samoan27, on 06/26/2008, -2/+5Yes I do, and I did read this before I commented. Look at the title and structure of the article and ask yourself what the focus is. Let me give you a rundown:
- thethinktank, on 06/26/2008, -2/+5I buried along with you, Samoan27. Article is *****. Reed77 should check sources before he writes those posts.
- billessig, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3Also buried. I've argued this point with COUNTLESS morons.
- Naieve, on 06/27/2008, -1/+2My problem with it is that it reinforces our addiction to oil by allowing us to continue with the internal combustion engine when we should be pushing forward toward a more environmentally friendly technology.
Simply put, it is a waste of resources at present.
Perhaps algae alone for the production would be an economically viable stopgap, but I think we would be better off skipping it and forcing real change.
- reed77, on 06/26/2008, -6/+10"Approved and toted as a “clean air” fuel, even a 20% biodiesel mix creates a significant reduction in CO2 emissions. The way biodiesel burns is not a point of concern. The way that it is currently being produced, may raise an environmentalist eyebrow or two."
- minoss, on 06/26/2008, -7/+12This is why you don't have the government mandate this *****. Look at ethanol. Some big heads in Washington get told of this great new energy source, they say hey, let's make everyone use it since it's better, then you come to realize it's not better. However, in a free market, this feedback is comes quickly and people stop using it. Instead we have a government who changes at a snails pace while we all suffer while waiting for them to fix their poor decisions.
- skellener, on 06/26/2008, -2/+3The oil industry is not a free market. They are all in collusion which is one of the factors behind the gas price hikes. That along with the value of the dollar tanking thanks to the way the administration has run the country into the ground for 8 years is the big problem here. There's nothing wrong with taking used old vegetable oil to run your car. You get to re-use a resource and avoid giving big oil your money all while staying out of the middle east.
- minoss, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2So do it. I'm not stopping you. However, don't use the government as a way to tell me what I should be using.
- Evildad, on 06/26/2008, -3/+3In a free market, companies like GM and Ford are allowed to make SUVs and other gas hogs until the company goes out of business, while other companies take the lead in alternative technologies and smaller, more efficient cars. Free market works, but it's not always pretty, and in the end can hurt a lot of people.
- cheezintern, on 06/26/2008, -2/+3Government mandates can be a good thing, such as mandating the use of solar and wind power over coal. Our government mandated the use of ethanol solely because large agribusinesses purchase their own congressman to put such legislation through.
- skellener, on 06/26/2008, -2/+3The oil industry is not a free market. They are all in collusion which is one of the factors behind the gas price hikes. That along with the value of the dollar tanking thanks to the way the administration has run the country into the ground for 8 years is the big problem here. There's nothing wrong with taking used old vegetable oil to run your car. You get to re-use a resource and avoid giving big oil your money all while staying out of the middle east.
- CoolHandLuke70, on 06/26/2008, -16/+8Folks, study Nikola Tesla. He perfected tapping zero point energy in 1905! He even retrofitted a Pierce Arrow car to run on electricity continuously charged on the same premise. He was even the first inventor of what we know as wi-fi. Zero Point Energy is non-polluting and unlimited! Do you think that the powers-that-be have not gone over Tesla's notes or have had enough time to figure out how he did what he did? Having an energy source that the PTB cannot lord over you with by charging you for it is NOT in their interest. Oil and energy is about control. Notice how all technology has advanced significantly with a significant exception of the combustion engine! Study the history of the electric car. Biofuel has never made sense. Study the abiotic theory of oil and Lindsey Williams' "Energy Non-Crisis". Research the fact that the technology to run cars on water has been around for a long long time! It is all about control folks and ultimately culling the herd with planned famine and warfare in order to return to a world population under 500 million and neo-feudalism. And unless you have been invited to join, you are not included in the plans! Please do not disregard this warning and DO THE RESEARCH yourselves until you get to the very bottom of it. Do not rest assured on anything the mainstream media says!
- dtd00d, on 06/26/2008, -2/+5I'm not sure if it's the lack of paragraphs, too many exclamation points, or a bunch of uncited statements, but I don't get it.
- OffPiste, on 06/26/2008, -5/+5Very true. It was the head of the Democratic party that killed his dream. Funny how things never change.
- TheSavant, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3The democrats are responsible for the death of alternative energy today? Maybe if you mean they are responsible for weak willed and letting the republicans run amuck. Sometimes you have to step away from your party and look at what is good for America. Neither party can move past party agendas and speaking points. All they can muster is opposition to anything the other party tries to accomplish. Which, in my opinion and at this moment, is a good thing because neither party has any real good ideas. We need to start voting for third party candidates who don't have to worry about allegiance to anyone but us, the American citizen.
- samoan27, on 06/26/2008, -1/+9Tell you what, I doubt EVERY physicist in the world is in on the conspiracy. You tell me where to find an article, preferably from a scientific journal, that mathematically depicts how zero point energy works and how it can be realistically harnessed (Maxwell's Demon could produce free energy too if it only existed), and I'll stop thinking you watched The Prestige one too many times.
- jhnewt, on 06/26/2008, -2/+1I've already joined so screw you. The rest of the herd needs to be culled!
- maddvibe, on 06/26/2008, -1/+15Definitely depends on the production, a lot of research is being conducted to produce biofuels in sustainable ways. Like a lot of things it isn't so cut and dry as biodiesel is good or evil. A growing number of biodiesel producers are making bio from waste products and are looking at other more sustainable feed stocks. I agree it is good to expose the negative aspects of its production so people are aware of what is going on. All this article does is blast the negatives which isn't very useful at all.
- mrmontrose, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3There are negatives to Bio-fuels, there is negatives to anything if you dig deep enough. Bio-Fuel may not be the solution, but it defiantly is part of the solution. We should have learned we can't rely on one energy source, combine this wind, solar, thermal, ethanol and than we have a solution.
We should rely on electric for local driving, than possibly biofuels for long distance traveling since it easy to refill. We should get our electricity from solar and wind. If everyone had a roof full of solar panels they would be cheap, and wind could help supplement our use maybe at night or in high energy use times. Why do people assume there is only one solution, the solution can be a bunch of imperfect things to work fine together.
Also we don't have to be 100 percent green thats not possible, but any direction toward that is better than none
- mrmontrose, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3There are negatives to Bio-fuels, there is negatives to anything if you dig deep enough. Bio-Fuel may not be the solution, but it defiantly is part of the solution. We should have learned we can't rely on one energy source, combine this wind, solar, thermal, ethanol and than we have a solution.
- FloridaMike, on 06/26/2008, -4/+11How much used cooking oil are we just tossing away now? I'm sure that if we developed a more efficient means of recycling the oil the wanton destruction of forest lands could considerably be offset.
- samoan27, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4Actually virtually none. Long before running your diesel on recycled vegi-oil became popular it was recycled for livestock feed and other uses. Aside from the small amounts that are tossed out in private homes none gets wasted.
- ileftfark, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4Having worked in 6 different restaurants and bars throughout high school and college (some of them national chains), I can tell you restaurants on the whole are not just "tossing out" their used oil. The spent oil is dumped into 55 gallon drums, where it is collected by a company who picks it up for free (or sometimes even pays the restaurant), and uses it for commercial products. I think one of the guys once told me they use it for cosmetics, but don't quote me on that. Also, it sucks to be the guy transporting the offensive scalding oil through the ***** parking lot and dumping the ***** into a giant barrel without splashing and burning the ***** out of yourself. Glad those days are over.
Sometimes I wander off-topic.- Evildad, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2When I worked at Long John Silver's (right out of college), we filtered and re-used the oil I don't know how many times. Every day each tank got filtered in the afternoon. I don't recall ever seeing that oil get tossed out OR shipped out! Yike!
- bullhead2007, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2Wow I'm never going to eat at long john silvers, and I'm glad I never have!
- magus_melchior, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2"Also, it sucks to be the guy transporting the offensive scalding oil through the ***** parking lot and dumping the ***** into a giant barrel without splashing and burning the ***** out of yourself."
Usually, restaurants are smart enough NOT to drain hot oil from the fryer (which can burn in more ways than one), they usually do it before they open up as part of the morning clean-up.
Now, if you were working at a restaurant whose cooks and managers were stupid enough to make you drain 250-degree oil and carry it across the parking lot, I think you can nail them in court. Or, at least, call the fire inspector on your old bosses right when they start draining.
- Evildad, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2When I worked at Long John Silver's (right out of college), we filtered and re-used the oil I don't know how many times. Every day each tank got filtered in the afternoon. I don't recall ever seeing that oil get tossed out OR shipped out! Yike!
- MonkeyHugger, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2Oooooh it's not wasted. I'm a skimpy student in the UK, was trying to find free waste oil from the local chippys, (fish and chip shop), for ages...every single one said they send it to their suppliers and get a discount on new veg. Nevermind, I pay 78p a litre for new veg, which is 50p cheaper than diesel.
- ineedunderscore, on 06/26/2008, -3/+12Stopping production of biofuels is not an option for the U.S. Not importing from countries that use slash and burn farming methods on rainforests is a perfectly viable option. Using non-food crops on currently fallow farmland, reducing subsidies to farms for growing nothing to maintain supply/demand balance for food crops and utilising clean farming methods are sensible precautions against seriously jeopardising our currently very low food crop price, while advancing scalability and ROI potential for fuel crops.
Our liquid fuel infrastructure is advanced, large and currently in place. The industrialised biofuel solution is the only scalable commodity solution that fits, or can be easily fitted to our current transportation energy distribution infrastructure.
As we adapt to our transportation fuel source problems, so must we change our electrical energy supply source.
Solar thermal is a solution adaptable to a few of our steam turbine coal electric plants. PV Solar is only about twice as expensive as coal now, and so is a viable new plant option. New vertical axis wind powered turbines are coming online with intitial cost not more than four times that of coal. The added feature of wind is that local natural habitat is much less effected due to the smaller individual footprint of the devices. They can also be built on the edges of farmland that is currently in use, effectively doubling the usefulness of the same land at half the cost to nature.
Using ALL of these methods in a safe, pragmatic way, will help us evolve our energy usage away from non-renewables and foreign dependancy.
So about biofuels being not green: Planting a tree is not green if you burn down other nearby trees to give yours sunlight.
In essence, this article says: Doing stuff is bad, when it would be more accurate to say: Doing stuff wrong is bad.- reed77, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4The purpose of this article is to raise awareness, a lot of people are quick to jump on new energy bandwagon's before they get all the information.
Granted the article presents a different side to the story, but it's not a bad article. It serves a purpose.
The point is simple our focus should be on sustainability.- ineedunderscore, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2ROFLCOMMA.
- konspence, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2I think that articles like this are very irresponsible on the media's behalf. In fact, this is just somebody's blog, but nevertheless it all starts somewhere.
The article addresses many points with biodiesel: (1) Endangering species. Okay, I assume he's talking about palm oil biodiesel. That's not even a prevalant source for bio, as it gels at very high temperatures (probably only works in the summer for most places). Much more of the palm oil problem is due to the food industry. Biodiesel makers are not a large purchaser of palm oil. Restaurants are.
(2) Dead zones- again, just a small fraction of biodiesel is being grown in tropical areas. The people growing palm there have no inhibitions about what they do to their land. They were going to grow something there, they just saw biodiesel through palm as the highest profit crop. These people are the minority, and would be destroying their land anyway (be it through raising palm for cooking oil, growing other plants, drilling for oil, etc)
(3) Contributing to the food crisis- This is a major fallacy that people use as an argument. Biodiesel does NOT compete for food. In North America, most biodiesel is produced from soybeans. In Europe, it is canola/rapeseed. Both of these crops are food, but the oil part of them is usually not used. From this perspective, biodiesel is a more efficient use of crops that would otherwise be going to waste. Soybeans are used for their protein, and canola/rapeseed is a rotational crop. Biodiesel does not use the entire plant. The increase in the price of food people are seeing is unfortunately coincidental to the increase in biodiesel and ethanol production. In fact, the largest factor in the increase in food prices is the increase in the price of oil. Farmers need oil to grow crops, simply put. The cost we pay is just a transfer of the cost they pay for diesel. The price of biodiesel has gone up, so if it were the thing causing food prices to go up, wouldn't that mean its price would stay down?
On any level, saying that biofuels are bad for the world is primarily and overtly a harmful example of what the media does to sell stories. What is commonly overlooked is the alternative to biodiesel and ethanol, which is drilling crude oil out of commonly pristine habitats, poisoning the land for miles, and extracting a dirty-burning and dirtily-processed fuel that cannot be made again once we run out. Biodiesel supports the local economy, is 100% renewable, and when done responsibly (as it is in most cases) promotes a better environment.
To throw in a personal observation, out of the 40 or so biodiesel stations in my area, I cannot name one that uses palm oil. If they do, it is certainly not rainforest-destroying, and definitely can only be sold in the summer months in the Pacific Northwest. Much of the fuel sold here is grown by wheat farmers in our state who use canola as a rotational crop. That is both sustainable and local.
- reed77, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4The purpose of this article is to raise awareness, a lot of people are quick to jump on new energy bandwagon's before they get all the information.
- pandalove1, on 06/26/2008, -10/+5I agree, lately it seems like everyone is jumping on the “green” bandwagon because it is the trendy thing to do. However, most people don’t know the first thing about biodiesel and how it is made. This article was very effective at showing people that just because something might seem “green” and be good for your pocketbook, it might not be the best choice that we have.
Everyone can agree that we need to find an alternative fuel source but as it is now, with very little regulation, it seems that biodiesel is doing more harm than good. Between marine life being killed and rainforests being cut down, this isn’t the best alternative to fossil fuel. Unless the government steps up and regulates the side affects of biodiesel production, and we all know that the US is run by big oil which won’t do much to help, we need find a better way.
Maybe instead of looking for new ways to fill up our cars, America should look into mass transit system.- thethinktank, on 06/26/2008, -1/+5You'd rather spend our money on fossil fuel when that money is going to OPEC nations that pose security threats to our country? Like Iran, Saudi Arabia or Venezuela?
I'd rather fill my tank with something that came from the Midwest, not the Middle East. Articles like this one are just misinformed ***** trying to keep us on the path we're on now, further enslaved to OPEC.
Corn-based ethanol is not a good fuel, but it is the perfect fuel to transition us from a fossil fuel economy to an open fuel economy with celulosic ethanol, algae biofuel and others. - jrburkh, on 06/26/2008, -2/+0People don't so much jump on the 'green' bandwagon because it's trendy, rather they jump on 'green' trends because they're trendy.
- thethinktank, on 06/26/2008, -1/+5You'd rather spend our money on fossil fuel when that money is going to OPEC nations that pose security threats to our country? Like Iran, Saudi Arabia or Venezuela?
- ileftfark, on 06/26/2008, -5/+3Wait, so burning ***** to get 20% efficiency, while costing a fortune in money and natural resources *isn't* the answer?
I don't have all the answers, but this seems like a "no *****" kinda topic. I still back nuclear, with the viable option of waste-stocking. People in the states just don't wanna hear that word, it seems. - Thrilltone, on 06/26/2008, -4/+16Biodiesel is great because the exhaust isn't poisonous.
The 100% Biodiesel makes your car run better than than petrochemical diesel. I can't find it anymore, since I moved to Central Florida.
How about instead of paying farmers to NOT grow crops, we plant crops for biodiesel on the 1 billion acres of fallow land in the U.S. ?
My Benz mechanic sold the stuff and none of his customers had any trouble with their hoses.
Biodiesel lubricates better than standard diesel fuel and watch your filters because it cleans out your system too.
Ethanol, on the other hand, is VERY corrosive, which is why the Marine Industry rejects it for their engines.- jabberwolf, on 06/27/2008, -2/+3Ethanol compared to gasoline is very corrosive? HAHA
Sorry but compared to petrol, ethanol is nothing. Ethanol actually has less ware on engine parts becuase it burns at a much lower temperature.
It IS more corrosive to certain metals like brass, zinc, lead, and aluminum and certain plastics. But these things have been looked at and replaced with the correct parts. Thats why the new cars can run E85 flex-fuels.
And the same goes with the cars being produced down in Brazil - magus_melchior, on 06/27/2008, -0/+3Maybe your mechanic replaced their hoses for free? Or they're holding up fine despite the solvent properties of biodiesel. Also, it clogs your fuel filter for the first fill-up or two because of the crud it cleans out, but I'm told that after that, everything's fine.
The problem with this article's points is that they all assume throwing resources behind biodiesel production can only mean using farmland. While it's true that most biodiesel production today is based on food crops, it's fallacious to assume that it will be that way forever. You can blame corn ethanol for some of the points raised by the article (dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico, for instance). - trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -0/+2"Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content."
http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=My ...
The marine industry most likely rejects it because of the water associated with boats. - Xeworlebi, on 07/25/2008, -1/+2There is a reason for the fallow land, it is so the ground can recover.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation- Thrilltone, on 06/27/2008, -1/+2No, most of it is Pork from their congressional representatives.
- Thrilltone, on 06/27/2008, -1/+2No, most of it is Pork from their congressional representatives.
- jabberwolf, on 06/27/2008, -2/+3Ethanol compared to gasoline is very corrosive? HAHA
- blacktriangle, on 06/26/2008, -2/+18I burn waste vegetable oil as fuel, and its just like having a Mr. Fusion unit. Garbage in, energy out.
- MonkeyHugger, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3Damn I wish i could find some waste. I run my car on veg, much to the mockery of my friends...and the fact I smell of chips.
- Tommyhawk, on 06/26/2008, -3/+5Hemp for Victory!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9UF-pFhJY - TheMachine1, on 06/26/2008, -2/+6Any technology that can not put Big Oil out of bussiness is not very green in my book.
Large scale algae oil production can do the job.- thethinktank, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2and we won't get to an algae biofuel market unless we use ethanol to get there. our cars have to be flex fueled somehow, and ethanol is pushing that demand.
- TheMachine1, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2Plently of big trucks use diesel at a rate of 6 MPG there a massive market waiting for biodiesel from algae right now.
- TheMachine1, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2Plently of big trucks use diesel at a rate of 6 MPG there a massive market waiting for biodiesel from algae right now.
- trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -2/+2Large scale algae production isn't feasible. Think of how much energy it would take for boats to collect all that algae.
- thethinktank, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2and we won't get to an algae biofuel market unless we use ethanol to get there. our cars have to be flex fueled somehow, and ethanol is pushing that demand.
- seanmx, on 06/26/2008, -1/+5Bruce Banner was pretty upset about gas prices, thats why he's going green.
- ThinkBox, on 06/26/2008, -4/+5Its issues like this that further the negative stereotypes of "GREENERS" to be ***** elitists who dont check facts.
Its sad that hyped bad science like this is what turns people away from environmentalism.
Also, yes it has more to do with WHERE they get the bio-fuels -- but the deal is, algae should be in use, but it isnt at the level of what is needed to make bio-fuels good.- thethinktank, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3You're calling biofuel bad science because of one ***** article with its facts screwed up?
The "***** elitists who dont check facts" are the ones that still think Biofuel is making food prices skyrocket.- ThinkBox, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3Bio-Fuels in their current implementation are a failure. There are ways to make it better, but they are not the popular method as of right now. Some day it will progress to a great source, but right now, it isnt.
That isnt from this one bias article. This is on a lot of studies and news articles that fully explain the market behind the fuels.
- ThinkBox, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3Bio-Fuels in their current implementation are a failure. There are ways to make it better, but they are not the popular method as of right now. Some day it will progress to a great source, but right now, it isnt.
- thethinktank, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3You're calling biofuel bad science because of one ***** article with its facts screwed up?
- beesaretasty, on 06/26/2008, -4/+2"According to the studies the process of clearing grasslands, rain forests, and other land for farming actually releases more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than would be saved by the fuel that the land produces."
What if the tractors are running on biodiesel? - berational, on 06/26/2008, -2/+6You've got to crawl to walk, walk to run. Bio fuels is a bit behind, using standard farming is the infancy of these fuels. This will get more efficient pretty quickly.
- metkillerjoe, on 06/26/2008, -6/+2You need stuff to produce it. A lot of stuff.
It is not the greatest alternative to fossil fuels. Sorry, but keep searching.
If the energy gained is less than the energy need to create the biofuel, then you don't have a good method for creating fuel. Bottom line, if it was a better [as cheap or cheaper than the current while reducing greenhouse gases] alternative, don't you think people would already be using it?
I don't get how environmentalist, of all people on this green earth, can't understand that cutting down more stuff to get something that will somewhat help the environment is "greener" than gasoline.- Travelsonic, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3The problem is not the idea of biofuels, it's the way we are attacking it - the crops we use, the methodology.. I repeat.. NOT THE IDEA itself... asshat. Let it mature, don't kill it prematurely. That's kinda like killing a newborn because somebody isn't taking care of it's development, instead of moving him or her to responsible parents.
- insanebrain, on 06/26/2008, -8/+2How can burning something be a 'green' solution. Wake up suckers.
- parallax7d, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3many fuels burn cleanly.
- ziggo118, on 06/26/2008, -4/+9This article is terrible. Seriously, this is some of the most illogical environmental crap that I've ever stared to read.
Using stuff we were going to throw away as fuel is always a green solution... Biodiesel isn't a "solution," but it's better than wasting perfectly good fuel. - krnldmp, on 06/26/2008, -3/+7Crap article. Biodiesel is in its infancy, and even so, most of the current plans involve a shorter and more sustainable carbon cycle than fossil fuels.
- JayTee44, on 06/26/2008, -0/+2Biodiesel is in its infancy, agreed. And when it used to be made in tiny quantities, the wasteful manufacture was ok. I think it's pretty likely that it will be made from algae in the future. I don't see a problem there.
- deleo, on 06/26/2008, -1/+3Wait until they start harvesting biodiesel from algae farms grown in salt water in the deserts of California and Mexico. Companies are planning them now and it's probably what will be fueling your car in 5 years time - with a hybrid engine of course. If you want to SOLVE global warming that combo is probably our best bet. This article is crap.
- Futurejunior, on 06/26/2008, -0/+4I think the writer of this article has Bio-diesel mixed up with ethanol. Most of the Bio-diesel produced and used today is made from used or waste vegetable oil, not pure. Where as ethanol is being widely used in countries such as Brazil to fuel fleets of vehicles. Brazil happens to be one of the only countries growing crops (sugar cane) specifically for the use of ethanol. The author here also is blaming bio-fuels for the destruction of the rain forest, this is completely false, if people stopped using bio-fuels the rain forest is still going to be destroyed for the all the reasons it is today. Lumber and livestock fields are the number one devastators of the rain forest. This articles is skewed and is either poorly researched or deliberately misrepresenting facts.
- TheDooku, on 06/26/2008, -0/+3The oil industry propaganda spreads far and wide. They're just like politicians...always slandering the competition based on ignorance and bullsh*t.
- Hoogs, on 06/26/2008, -2/+3Please, world, stop saying the word "green", or I will go insane.
- GeorgeStone2, on 06/26/2008, -1/+4I didn't know BP had an account on digg!
This is all *****. You can make BioDiesel in your back garden with waste oil from cookers.
Yeah, real bad thing there. Recycling.
Oh noes.
The oil companies realize that biodiesel is the future car fuel. So they're trying their hardest to swat it.- metkillerjoe, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1Then take it. Put it in your car, and drive.
It is not the future, its too inefficient.
By the way, why can't hydrogen be the solution? Its just as infant as biofuel (and the only by product is water).- GeorgeStone2, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1But you need electricity to make it.
- metkillerjoe, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1Then take it. Put it in your car, and drive.
- FatBird19, on 06/26/2008, -2/+2Corn is food, not fuel.
- DaDiggydiggyDOC, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1Bio fuel made of algae is a true alternative that is renewable and that is key in setting a level pricing structure ;that we don't have to worry about a hurricane or shortage , and having to deal with the price spikes associated with both. Plus we need to invest massive resources to battery tech IMO.
- tantive5, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2Article seems to ignore 2nd gen' biofuels which don't need farm land and are based on algae and the like
- bullhead2007, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1I know there's about a million acres of unused desert in Arizona that we could grow hemp/algae on to make bio diesel
- bigsteve3OOO, on 06/26/2008, -5/+2here is the issue:
1 build a better mousetrap
2 world beats path to door
3 profit
problem:
1 mouse trap sucks
2 get Al Gore to say other mouse trap kills polar bears
3 people die of starvation but retarded hippies say its a better mouse trap
4 profit - MrFurious2k, on 06/26/2008, -1/+2It's okay. Going green has nothing to do with ecology. Environmentalism is a political power movement, nothing else. Understanding that, you'll know why biodiesel doesn't need to work as advertised.
- incircolo, on 06/26/2008, -0/+5Bio-fuels themselves are a true alternative to traditional fossil-fuels. We have to find the best way to produce them
- smacksaw, on 06/27/2008, -1/+1The only thing dumber than that article are the article's comments. You'd think that driving truck all day, you'd have time to think, but as far as the writer is concerned, it's obviously not the case.
- trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -1/+2Large scale algae production isn't feasible. Think of how much energy it would take for boats to collect all that algae. And before you go saying "WELL TRACTORS TAKE ENERGY TOO!" remember that boats are highly inefficient compared to wheeled vehicles. Simple physics.
Hemp is the future.- div2n, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1Uhh, yes it is feasible. PetroSun is starting to do it _now_.
http://www.petrosuninc.com/- trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1I'm not saying it isn't _possible_. I'm saying it isn't feasible on a LARGE scale, enough to produce fuel for all of America. I'm all for using algae for biofuel, and switchgrass, and whatever else we can get our hands on that isn't a food crop. However hemp is still the best option we have, and could provide the majority of our fuel needs as well as thousands of other products without destroying rainforests and other vital ecosystems.
- div2n, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1Uhh, yes it is feasible. PetroSun is starting to do it _now_.
- Catspaw, on 06/27/2008, -2/+2Why not run vehicles on water? It is being done in Japan. Refer:
http://www.uncensoredmagazine.co.nz/news/2008/06/1 ...- birdcity, on 06/27/2008, -1/+0there's ebooks and instructions all over the net on how to run your car on water - what ive read from them it should work - by separating the compound hydrogen from water and using water to cool down the engine this should be the next thing if car manufacturers or oil company's will allow this to cripple there business in oil
- minsley1021, on 06/27/2008, -1/+1Because water explodes!!!!11!1one!11!
Or rather the hydrogen, once separated is difficult to contain, and would result in a hindenburg scenario if you had a leak, or got in a bad accident.
Other than that it's high up on the list of replacement fuels for cars. - trumpydumpy, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1This has been proven a scam.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/06/genepax-wa ...
- gkiltz, on 06/27/2008, -1/+0Look at the impact on food prices!
Worse, more than 70% of American farmers are over age 60!
What happens when the mind is willing but the body keeps saying "A younger man should be doing this!"?
Remember, the real environmentalists are as opposed to large-scale farming as they have always been to the automobile! - iamthearm, on 06/27/2008, -2/+0I never thought biodiesel was green. Just cheep. Of course it's not green.
- claybodie, on 06/27/2008, -0/+5Wow,
I'm blown away by the misinformation in this article! It says "With farmers growing more corn for biodiesel, more fertilizer is being used resulting in the death of marine life."
Biodiesel is not made from corn, it's made from soybeans, waste vegetable oil, or animal fats.
Domestically produced biodiesel is a clean burning fuel that's good for most engines and offers significant emissions (included greenhouse gas) reductions.
People need to stop lumping biofuels into a single category. As Thomas Friedman pointed out in the NYT recently, it's like lumping drugs together and then listing the flaws of heroin. No ***** cutting down forest to plant soybeans is a bad idea, but let's be specific when we're talking about these issues. And try to know the fundamental differences before writing an article like this one... - CleanBurning, on 07/02/2008, -0/+0All across the United States, biofuel companies are going out of business. More bankruptcies are expected as "corn prices are making the feasibility of ethanol plants questionable...and prices for soy oil, the feedstock for most biodiesel plants, have been high on rising global demand for months..." yielding miserable profit margins.
Meanwhile, the Energy Information Administration's (EIA) projects that worldwide demand for Natural Gas will increase by 52 percent from 2005 to 2030. Why? Because is cleanest burning fuel while also being the domestically abundant cure to foreign oil consumption.
Currently, there are more than 150,000 natural gas vehicles - including trucks and buses - on the road in the United States and more than 5 million worldwide, according to Natural Gas Vehicles for America. - yellowcakewalk, on 07/03/2008, -1/+1Consume less.
- gormanwvzb, on 07/24/2008, -0/+0Ethanol is a waste! It takes more fuel to produce ethanol than it produces. Additionally, it takes 10,000 liters of water to make 5 liters of ethanol.
I read a great article called "Adding up the Cost of Ethanol" found at http://economicefficiency.blogspot.com/2008/07/add ... It really called out how it is really just a big subsidy to corn growers and ethanol producers like ADM. - skyflyerke, on 08/03/2008, -0/+0I'm using BioDiesel and I'm very happy with my choice!
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