What is Digg?231 Comments
- dbhaley, on 10/10/2007, -10/+71As someone who has studied education through the lens of economics, this video made me extremely happy. It is awesome to see Stossel do such a necessary documentary, and reveal the best solution to education woes: free markets (or at least more free). Remember that every time you hear something negative about deregulation, it is coming from someone who benefits from that regulation.
Lady at end of video (unionized teacher): "To say that competition is going to improve education? It's not going to work. Competition is not for human beings, it's not for children, it's not for public education." Stossel: "Competition makes everything better." Hearing that almost made me weep. This basic fact of nature (see: Darwin) gets overlooked far too often in this country. We get caught up in the guise of fairness, not realizing that the extremes of fairness lead to much harsher realities.
Final note: At the end of the documentary, he FINALLY talks to Caroline Hoxby. She has written many good papers on education using economic data to draw conclusions. I recommend them even if you aren't well versed in economics.Some of them here: http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers.html - depape0, on 10/10/2007, -0/+33i think it's very striking that Beligan students speak better english than the americans, and they already have to deal with 3 national languages (flemish, french and german)
- FLaw, on 10/10/2007, -7/+37Kid dosnt do well in school.
Parents blame school saying their to strict.
lawsuits are filed.
schools become less strict.
Kids are now able to slacks off.
parents blame school.
Laws are passed (no child left behind act)
schools "dumb down" for higher GPAs to keep the federal funding rolling.
parents blame school! - TGMD, on 10/10/2007, -2/+28Wow I was actually surprised that 20/20 got it right!
- dbhaley, on 10/10/2007, -6/+26Moral of the story: Unions benefit two entities, the union itself, and the lazy worker.
- jmpeagle, on 10/10/2007, -3/+20I don't get how giving kids' parents the ability to CHOOSE which public school their kids go to can possibly hurt the children. This is what schools systems in europe do and they are much better educated.
We don't even need to call it school competition...we can just call it "school choice". - BESTenemy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+16"They say we need more money for education. That's the big answer to everything, education. They say we need more money for books, more teachers, more classrooms, more schools, and more testing for the kids, and they'll say, well we tried all of that, and the kids still can't pass the tests. Don't worry about that, because we're going to lower the passing grades, and that's what they do in a lot of these schools. They lower the passing grades so more kids can pass - more kids pass, the school looks goods, and the IQ of the country slips another 2 or 3 points. And pretty soon all you'll need to get into college is a pencil. Got a pencil? Then get in there, it's physics!"
- George Carlin - JJCDAD, on 10/10/2007, -1/+17I don't know whether to digg your comment for the irony or what. I count 4 spelling/grammar errors in your comment. Please say you were trying to be funny...please.
- davesawyer, on 10/10/2007, -1/+15The video was worth watching, in case you're scared off by the 40 minute length.
- W00DR0W, on 10/10/2007, -1/+14I don't usually agree with john Stossel, but I can personally attest that Charter Schools are a better way to go.
Many charter schools are terrible and exist only to make money for the person running them, I went to two such charter schools and was set back a great deal because of sub-par education. -That's the bad side
But I eventually enrolled in a charter school that was above the level of some of the better private schools out there. I was doing math 3 grades above my level and learning how to expertly use Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, and autoCAD (a math reliant program used by architects). I ended up graduating a year early.
And the teachers had degrees and experience high enough to teach at UC level colleges. A normal public school wastes so much much money, it couldn't afford teachers of that caliber.
Also, rather than continuing badly designed curriculum, the best one will ultimately win. - TalkingBanana, on 10/10/2007, -4/+17When the unionized teacher started talking about how competition benefited no one and was bad for kids, I got extremely angry and frustrated as well. It's people like her who keep out public education system in the stone age, when other people are shooting for the moon.
I go to a charter school, and I have to say that I get an extremely good education. The teachers are nice and enjoy teaching, and if the students act out constantly or do very poorly they are not allowed to stay. We definitely need to reform out system. - thealliedhacker, on 10/10/2007, -0/+12Heh, I particularly like the quote "There aren't really bad teachers"
I wish I could digg this 100 times; every US citizen should watch it. - DietMountainDew, on 10/10/2007, -3/+15Competition is always a good things for consumers.
- solarsavior, on 10/10/2007, -2/+14It's not 20/20, it's John Stossel. He's always right on track.
- crapiolio, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10We should buy more maps for the kids and their families.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+10with a stash like that how can you be wrong?
- liveforever, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8Mirror since this one was taken down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA - agentx216, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8And that's what a free market system is all about. You might not find the best one right away...but aren't you glad you have others to choose from instead of being stuck in one system that doesn't work?...Like public schools
- lynch03, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9The answer for those who can afford it, is a private school. I was in the public school system from k-8. I was clearly made aware of the deficiencies of my public school system when I was put in a catholic school for high school. It was a place where teachers deliberately took a pay cut to be there (public schools pay much more), and this type of dedication was shown through the quality of teaching. They wanted to be there, it wasn't about the money.
- dbhaley, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7Medical research and development. Many other countries use drugs obtained through American research. Innovation is one of the often ignored benefits of our current system. We spend more than twice as much per year on R&D as our closest competitor China.
- Ubersmush, on 10/10/2007, -4/+11You Americans are seriously ***** up
- xtmno3, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10My one question: Does America get anything right today, if so, what? (For any curious, I am an American)
- NSResponder, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7 Before you take it upon yourself to teach others, you should, at the very least, have mastered capitalization.
-jcr - wicketr, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8Does the cable guy also get 4 months of vacation per year or are you completely forgetting that fact? If you only get 38K, then you need to get a job over the summer.
I wish i could just lounge around for 4 months out of the year and complain i'm not making the same as people who work 40 hour weeks 50 weeks out of the year. - Flump5000, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6it made me feel like i was going to vomit when that dumb ***** didnt know what the bill of rights was.
- NSResponder, on 10/10/2007, -2/+8America's higher education system is world-class. Could be because college students can choose where they go to school...
-jcr - WhiteRaven, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7Unions were good things seventy years ago. There serve absolutely no purpose now and have already destroyed the US manufacturing sector.
- liveforever, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6Not the school; The system. Listen to the comparisons to other systems in other countries and other systems that actually work in the US described in the video. No one wants kids to do things they aren't able to do, but being able to do better in comparison to other systems is what is needed.
- dbhaley, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Which countries are you referring to? What is the "best" level of public spending? Did you mean "highest"? Do you decide the "best"? And yes, perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "every". How about "most". Oh, and what exactly is a "Free-market fundamentalist"? And it's not an "ideology." I would regard it as a theory, created by a man called "Adam Smith." What about socialism? Is that an ideology? They must both be or neither be ideologies. Personally, I think you're just using buzz words and unsourced "facts" to get your weak point across.
- superyounan1, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5i've dugg this before, but its really good.
- SuckMyDigg, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Digging won't fix anything in and of itself. Getting the word out to as many people as possible will. When people are made aware of problems they didn't know existed, or problems they knew existed but didn't know the extent of, change becomes a more likely possibility.
- dbhaley, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Well, the opposition would say, "The choice by nature creates the competition." But you have a point about the type of rhetoric used in the debate. And this point is even more clear in the teachers' unions' ad campaigns. "Schools in the area are improving. Making progress. blah blah vote no for vouchers blah blah stay the course blah blah." If you look at the numbers, they tell the story. Mind the source, people.
- dbhaley, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Again, where are your sources???
- lynch03, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6well he is, but he's right on this particular issue..
- bortis, on 10/10/2007, -3/+8 While this piece highlights some serious concerns about the effects of the current system of schooling, its implied corrections are hardly novel. "School Choice", in a privatized system, is little more than a streamlined path back to segregation. Remember, when schools are run privately and for profit it is they who make the choices; which students to accept and how much to charge. Do you think that a school that wants to build a reputation for academic success is going to admit students who might put at risk that success? Children with special needs and those from troubled economic backgrounds will find themselves on the cold side of the privatized wall. (Not that they already aren't)
Instead of privatizing schools we need to ask ourselves if, perhaps, some of our most cherished assumptions about school and learning are not flawed. Is there such thing as a "best" method? Is grouping by age sensible? Should boys and girls always be taught in the same ways? Is math necessarily and always more important than art? What is needed is a variety of approaches to schooling and learning, a variety that speaks to and understands the multiplicity of learning styles and needs of the children the system is meant to serve.
Also, instead of looking for an easy answer by putting all the blame at the foot of the school, we might perhaps ask if there is not something about our culture that is antithetical to learning. Does our culture demonstrate a value of learning, intelligence and character? Do we select for those in positions of influence and power people who exemplify thoughtfulness, sensitivity and wisdom? Do we promote science, rationality and skepticism? One must only turn on the television to have these questions answered.
- monsterofNone, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6mostly.
- Smight, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Instead of all your funding going to your school district it would go with the students from your district. $10,000 a year is significantly more than most private school cost and they provide a better education. If all schools were run as efficiently as private schools where there is competition and the average cost is around $3000 http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-025.html
You could theoretically get a 70% tax cut on school funding. Or that money could be channeled into the road system or used to build a shinier solid platinum statue on the capital building. - dbhaley, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5What's better accountability than leaving a school that isn't properly teaching your child?
- Jpesci, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4From a logical perspective, it should be obvious to most that a monopolization where there are no consumer choices, and more importantly, no incentives for a business or organization to do a job or a task "better than what's required", stifles growth, productivity, and quality of service.
It's happened in the past with Microsoft, and it'll happen to you the next time you're waiting in 4 different lines at the DMV. In many situations, (not all), competition makes things better because there is now a greater incentive for better performance. Innovation and growth come into play as schools are forced to give something to parents that aren't available somewhere else. - agentx216, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4I've never heard the US teachers' union called "weak" before. The only way they could get more power is if they built the Death Star and threatened the entire world with it. I know being socialized in Canada might make every other system appear to be "weak" (kind of like how Russians thought our POW camps were vacation homes compared to gulags) but the US teachers' union is one of the most powerful unions in the country, if not THE most powerful.
- dbhaley, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4lol. Okay I see your point, now. But still, maybe someone viewing this video will vote differently on school voucher proposals in their district. Or take a more active role. Don't undermine the power of information, either. No one likes a defeatist.
- Moskie, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4http://i14.tinypic.com/68jl5yo.jpg
Interesting lesson plan... - xtmno3, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6You have to consider the costs, though. In the case of fire departments, police, and postal services, there are huge amounts of public funds that go into these things. Think about how much harder police would work if they could lose their job for not doing it proficiently. Think how quickly fire departments would respond if that amount of time could be compared with others and cause them to lose business if they can't keep up. Think of how fast you would get your packages if a postal company would go out of business if they didn't get it to you.
People will support that which they need and will let that which they don't need fail. Competition is the only method of business that makes sense in a capitalistic society. - trentasaurus, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Umm...
Over 50% of money in our healthcare system is attached to the government, so we haven't had private health care in a while.
And the postal service is kind of private now, but it's illegal to send mail for less than a dollar unless you're the USPS, so no competition their either. - happytron, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4"... will make the class divides in America worse."
This seems like a possibility, since educated and well-to-do families are more likely to critically evaluate their options, while unmotivated students are more likely to take a path of least resistance. Free markets have a tendency to give people what they want, not what is best for them, and there will likely emerge education options of quality analogous to fast food or Fox news. In any case, class division isn't the problem, per se, so much as the existence of a lower class. As such, restraining class mobility with a lowest common denominator approach to education benefits no one. - Bluntman4000, on 10/10/2007, -4/+8I wounder why America is so stupid?... it must not be bad parenting!... Especial not when Parents let the television do the teaching!... I think its kinda funny how they have all those "Little Einstein" videos that they trick parents into buying... When actually they found out that those videos tend to make children do worse rather then better when it comes to Education!... America has its priorities ***** up, plan and simple!!
- halavais, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4American higher ed (I've been a prof for the last decade) is passable in some subjects in some universities some of the time. I see graduates of state schools who can't write an essay or form a proper sentence. My experience with foreign students--particularly Indians and Koreans--is that their undergraduate institutions prepared them far better than ours would have.
- liveforever, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6It can help fix the system if the changes proposed began to be implemented. As stated in the video (which you didn't watch, obviously) the kids aren't "stupid", but the system is set up for the kids to fail. Competition can cure most of the bad aspects in the current system.
- bacon_skoda, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4there are also no kids jumping from table to table.
There is huge apathy towards education here in the US. Kids high five each other for a C.
I wish some of the teachers can smack some of these fools in school, but then that would cause a lawsuit. - agentx216, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3If he would have said 2+2=4 I'm sure you would have a problem with that too...because of mustache envy...or something
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