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Frank Zappa Destroys Robert Novak on the Issue of Censorship (1986) watch!

youtube.com — This is Zappa on Crossfire in 1986. Zappa's responses are absolutely brilliant as he shows the absurdity of government censorship. Novak gets really fired up. "I love it when you froth like that."

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  • TeCuervo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+80It is 1:30 AM and I could not move away from my computer.
    I have new-found respect for Frank Zappa after hearing him talk.
    This man is very well educated and extremely intelligent.
    John Lofton on the other hand... well... you should really see this video because Frank Zappa really doesn't do anything to Robert Novak... He obliterates John Lofton who, in my opinion, is a tard.
    Definite, def finite digg.
    • bruenig, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Yeah, it is Lofton not Novak. I remember this from a long time ago and when I found it, I wrote the description from memory before watching it again. I also just like to envision Novak being destroyed.
    • Xageroth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+23It's sad that there aren't more public figures that understand freedom of speech this way. It's as if people believe freedom of speech is meant for the majority of views but what is the point of having the majority of views protected? Who would ever be able to persecute the majority? It seems kind of obvious to me freedom of speech is meant to protect the minority views which most people would react to with offense and want to silence.
    • draebor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+22Great clip... the one think I kept hoping Zappa would say was that the things Mr. Lofton was attempting to shield the country from are parts of the human experience for better or worse, and they don't disappear just by throwing them in a closet. Free speech leads to debate which it can be hoped leads to agreement and resolution, as long as parties aren't blinded by their own ideology. I think people like Lofton are afraid of debate and what might arise from it.

      And on the subject of America moving toward a facist theocracy, it's almost scary just how accurate Mr. Zappa's statement predicted the last few years under New Republican control. The very fact that the US government got involved in a right-to-life case in Florida is just one memorable example.
    • Zyk0tiK, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27I don't know how he stays so calm, seriously... If I was Zappa I would have smacked that guy in the face so ***** hard...
    • beasty_dave_Mk2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Lofton's blogs' good for a chuckle after watching that.

      http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=340

    • da_bradler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6lol that John Lofton needs to wait a couple years until rap music comes out then he'd really be pissed.

      But seriously why do guys like him always try to ask extremely leading questions the whole time, he's just like bill o'riley instead of decusing the point he just takes the most extreme situation and trys to get the person to condone it.

      Are we willing to give up the majority of our rights to protect us from the a minority of content that might offend us. "you don't protect us by limiting us you imprision us"
    • TomRemixed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18I love it when people underestimate musicians.
    • ig33k010011, on 10/12/2007, -13/+1i would hardly call that "destroying". its sad how people like Zappa are so inconsiderate of other peoples preferences.
    • compaqnigg, on 10/12/2007, -13/+1I disagree with Zappa, there has to be some control on what is on TV. He is dumb for thinking that uncensored media won't affect children.... all you have to do is turn on the TV and look at our society... were a bunch of low lives... thanks Zappa.
    • nickrct, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6If Zappa was still around now, he would Obliterate all these goons on Cable TV. He's smirking down from Heaven.
    • TheKidd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It's just WORDS. And yes, you can assemble them to make sentences. BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    • TheKidd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I would have punched Lofton in the head 2 minutes into that interview. Zappa has some serious anger control.....
    • alittletoohigh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I think its rather ironic that zappa would defend the likes of "rock n rollers" to produce such trashy music when he spent half his life dissing it. IE "Rock has become far to proposterous" speaking about hair bands and cockrock.

      Having said that:


      Zappa is one of the greatest rock composers of all time. He is a prolific genius. Please listen to his album "The best band you,ve never heard in your life"
    • Xageroth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@alittletoohigh, more than ironic it's absolutely commendable. He's backing up that famous quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
  • Fragalishus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+48Indeed, Zappa was the man. This country needs many more outspoken "celebrities" like him and far, far fewer idiots like Lofton.
    • gconeen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+25yes, not just celebrities, everyone. you don't need to be a radical person to stand up for what you believe, that's a major problem today.
    • igraham09, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13"My concern extends beyond my own family, beyond my own children. I'm concerned about the whole society, the whole country"

      Guess what Mr. Lofton? That's not your ***** job... you take care of your littluns, and other people will take care of theirs. Maybe _you_ don't want Little Johnny of yours to hear the word "boob", but other people might not mind.

      It's NOT. YOUR. JOB.
  • D1360, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Zappa completely rips John Lofton apart! It was great watching him in action. I never saw him in this context before.
    Great video!
  • david76, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10It's so disappointing to see someone from the Washington Post advocating censorship.
    • david76, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Sorry, Washington Times, not the Post.
  • david76, on 10/12/2007, -1/+58Best comment of the show:
    "The biggest threat to America today is not Communism, it's moving America towards a fascist theocracy."
    - Frank Zappa
    • david76, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20Frank Zappa before the Senate Judiciary Committee on this issue.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZXjrs4fvY
    • zephc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8more prescient words have never been spoken.

      Uptight legislators and others have been fighting new music since before the radio became popular.
    • jake8689, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"masterm1nd" are you stupid its happening right now with the gay marriage ban and calling people traitor for not supporting the governments decision on Iraq
    • biff_m, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11@masterm1nd, Zappa said "...moving America towards a fascist theocracy". That indicates a process not an event.

      look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

      I would say that defines the Bush administration. I would say that if Zappa said that exact phrase today, it would be more true than ever. George Bush's goal is for everyone to support his government just because we can't be seen as unpatriotic (fascism) and to believe that his religious beliefs should guide our morality and law making (theocracy).
    • Davediego, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20He called it 20 years ago, very impressive
    • igraham09, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5[wrong post, bury promptly]
    • NMVK, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1"Our families are under attack from people like you with these lyrics." - Lofton

      "Traditional family values are under attack ... I don't want [taxpayers' money] to support positive depictions of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle" - Alabama Rep. Gerald Allen
    • Albaster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@achalemoipas

      2. And Rome. Also, in feudal/samurai Japan times, it was seen as okay for a samurai to have a male lover besides his girlfriend/wife, pretty much in the same fashion than Greek ephebos. Also, in an interview done to the Dalai Lama that I read around a year ago, he said that Buddhism saw nothing wrong about homosexuality, "as long as human canals aren't used for anything but what they were thought for" (read: Anal intercourse)... And Buddhism is older than Christianism by a tad 500-and-something years old. I also remember watching a documentary a few years ago on some Amazonian tribes where homosexual behavior was perfectly normal, but I'm afraid that I don't remember which ones were, so excuse me about being so vague about this last fact.
      3.Another addition to your point :) Homosexual or bisexual behavior is present in most animal species, including our closest relatives the apes, and despite what some may want to make themselves believe, we are animals too.
    • shibbzz, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1@Achalemoipas

      funny how you used Greece as the example and not a more accurate example, like Rome, for your argument. is it maybe because Rome ended up falling?? makes you wonder if it will soon happen with the US since we are on the same track...
  • Asriel86, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Frank Zappa has always been a hero of mine. He's opposition of government censorship has always been so level-headed and obvious it always makes whoever argues against him look like idiots.

    This is a must-see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZXjrs4fvY&eurl=
  • mntalkase, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21Favorite line from the debate (at the 2:00 mark):

    Moderator: "There are certain words you use to describe an act of fornication that is... is brutal."
    Zappa: "So?"
    • darkamster07, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Lofton: "You're not smiling, you don't look too happy about that."
      Zappa: "Well why should I smile, I'm sitting here with you."

      (copy+paste from youtube, forgive me. Original: ParanoidKid)
  • wisebob134, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3thats awesome
  • deathdefyer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13John loses his argument about "words" so he starts picking on Frank's answer to his "hope" question... what a desperate *****.
  • jtarchie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It was obvious lack of preparation that John had for debating. He had prepared to bring down a person using a position of 'integrity' of a person to try to win. The debate was about the issues at hand "words" in rock music. Frank Zappa had some strong points, but I think they clearly can be summed up at the the end with his intelligent rant. John never once brought up any credible material -- most of it consisted of "someone once said..." or describing morals. Obviously, morals his hope for the discussion. If we wants to talk morals then he should have properly linked it to the topic of lyrics. I am just trying to point of points of debate -- not if I agree with them or not. Frank should have prepared his own set of questions. Even though he did present his point view clearly he would ask a question and just sit there with a smirk.
  • sevenora, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23I find it very interesting that this video brings to light a huge hypocrisy today, which is that republicans are conservative. Frank Zappa is "a conservative", where is small government in today's administration?

    Also funny: Lofton references Hitler to defend censorship...umm...whats that smell? oh, its books burning.
    • detlev409, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I was honestly shocked by how myopic that attack was. I've never heard such a selective argument in my life. It's amazing what you can force yourself to believe when you're grasping to defend the indefensible.
    • Ystig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"I find it very interesting that this video brings to light a huge hypocrisy today, which is that republicans are conservative. Frank Zappa is "a conservative", where is small government in today's administration?"

      The problem with the word "conservative" is that it implicitly connotes preseveration of a particular status quo or even a particular unrealised doctrine, and by no means will all parties and persons, even within a particular political setting, agree on what it is that we are suggesting should be conserved.

      In the United States, most people use "conservative" to imply conservation of the political doctrine professed (but not necessarily practised) by the founders of the American political tradition. On the other hand, others, even within the United States, will use "conservative" to imply the preservation of political principles as they were in fact practiced at an earlier time (e.g., the 1950s) in US history. That's not wrong, it's just a different implicit meaning.

      Meanwhile, outside the United States, given different histories, "conservative" can have radically different meanings. The closest thing Canada has to a conservative domestic political tradition is Toryism, which, depending on the strain and period, tends to favour an empowered government class and fairly substantial government control and orchestration of industry, but, oddly, a disempowered executive. Which is to say that the most traditional meaning of "conservative" in Canada (and to a just slightly lesser extent in Britain) is almost precisely opposite to the meaning of "conservative" in the United States.

      The reality is, "conservative" is fundamentally dependent for its meaning upon place and time the term is used, and place and time the term references as its conserved status quo. There is no "true" conservative path.
  • Th0Rr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21"Do you make lots of money pedaling you wares?" - Lofton
    "Yes. Millions. Millions of dollars." - completely straight faced Zappa
    hilarious

    Lofton looks like a child molester too. I don't know if its the hair or the glasses, probably both.
    • somnus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You can tell that really pissed him off. Lofton hated him for his views, his intelligence, his lifestyle, and then Zappa gave him something else to be jealous out of through turning around a question meant to deafeat him. I sincerely hope that people who watched that show saw who really came out clean in that argument.
    • metamorfoza, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yeah, Lofton expected a differnet answer. He thought that Frank will be somewhat modest or (quirte possibly) that he will avoid the question. Zappa saw this and just nailed him. (you saw the look he gave to the Lofton)
  • SakisRakis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8They had problems with music lyrics and concepts in the 80's...wonder what they would have to say about 'The Internets'
  • peregrine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7This is interesting cause 21 years later it's still relevant. All arguments and all proof are all still relevant.
    How far politically and socially have we really come?


    Great video. Great man.

  • reddevil3, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Why should a bunch of old white men decide what should be censored or not?
    • wm2010russ, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5what does their race have to do with anything
    • writeman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4By the same token you can say what does their gender have to do with it? The fact is, both race and gender would play into their decision-making, just as it does in everything else. And if you don't believe that, you're kidding yourself.
  • ajaxfontura, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Does this remind anybody else of that video where the three scientology goons are trying to intimidate a camer man. They kept asking him "what are YOUR crimes, ?" In this video there's a great moment at about 6:00-6:30 where they're really ganging up on Mr. Zappa. "Wrong again, Frank!"

    And they're all way too fixated on the incest angle.
  • 4dplane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Frank is my hero next to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan - for having one to many albums to listen to.
    • shibbzz, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0thats pretty bad if HE is your hero.... what a sad world you live in.
    • rowanjl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Vote Fascist for the 9th glorious year!"

      I wonder who your hero is shibbzz, that you so freely denounce everyone elses.
  • jake8689, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Zappa called when he said "we going down a path that would take us to a fascist theocracy"
  • biggans, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Zappa rocks
  • ejhdigdug, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Wow, I've always been a big fan of Zappa, but it's amazing to see him in action. He did a great job. I found it amazing to hear him say that he's a conservative. It makes sense, but with the way politics are run today I would have assumed he was a liberal.

    It was also amazing to see what crossfire used to look like. It was an actual show not just a shouting match.

    I DIG IT!
  • biff_m, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Lofton's comments on Hitler were very true, in terms of influence. HOWEVER, his influence was a direct result of the censorship that the Nazi Party implemented. This censorship is no different than the type that Lofton advocates. The idea that any kind of censorship helps society is the same reasoning that Hitler used. If Germany had any true freedom of speech during that time, I believe that the Nazi's would have had a hard time having parades honoring themselves and their beliefs.

    It all comes down to who has the final say in what can be said on the airwaves, in print, and in music. The freedom of speech also includes the freedom from speech. (paraphrasing Penn Jillette) I don't choose to watch FOX News, but I don't think it should be off the air. Likewise, I should be able to have the opportunity to criticize those that I don't agree with. Lofton advocates the government telling me I can't say certain things, but what if someone were in power that told him to shut up. He would be spouting the founding fathers and the First Amendment.

    Who gets to decide what gets said? I don't, but I don't want to, and I know you don't want me too.
    Who gets to decide what I hear? ME, and only ME. That is the spirit of freedom of speech.
  • bonlebon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Frank Zappa was a 100% real person, sad he had to go.

    An he nailed it on the future predictions....
  • Depthfunction, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17In retrospect, Lofton is absolutely right. I grew up in the 80s and listened to Prince and Van Halen. Now, when I ***** my kids (or invite my kids' teacher in for a threesome), I can't help but whistle the tune to "Purple Rain."
  • ryanscott, on 10/12/2007, -12/+1this was posted a while back, couple months late bud. :/
    • shibbzz, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0OMG OMG OMG!!! digg this guy down because he didnt rave about Zappaface
  • dn11, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Most hilarious part was when Zappa told Loften he was advising young people to vote and be involved in government in order to have hope for the future and to better their lives and Loften acted like that was a ridiculous idea.
    • toasty168, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4On that note... DON'T FORGET TO VOTE PEOPLE!!! REGISTER NOW!!
  • DagYo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Lofton must have been the inspiration for Jeremy Piven's character in Old School. :P

    http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0302886/CT-1647.jpg.html
  • longshot789, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Excellently versed. I always knew there was a reason why I liked his music so much. Man lofton really has his head up his ass.
  • detlev409, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6This is the first time I've ever really seen or heard Frank Zappa.

    He's my new hero. Can we please rebroadcast this across the nation? People need to see someone give this issue the utter dismissal that Zappa gives it.

    I love how Lofton is expecting backup from the other folks, but can't get it. Poor bastard flounders in his own desperate fear of those 7 scary little words. I can't believe how people scream and run from such small portions of personal responsibility.
  • eN1X, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Tubbo in the glasses is the exact kind of person I hate. Wants to have the government control every aspect of life itself FOR HIM. Just because he doesn't like some dirty words, he believes the government should BAN it even though some people might enjoy it for some reason. He never takes into account that he doesn't have to listen to that music if he doesn't want to. He just wants the easy way out so he doesn't have to deal it. Life is a bitch....you are gonna have to deal with stuff you don't like, but there is always something YOU can do about it. Don't rely on the ***** government. Make yourself useful and help YOURSELF. The government will take care of the important stuff...

    Oh and if he's so worried about children hearing this kind of music...I believe it's up to the PARENTS to govern what they think is good for their children and what is not. NOT THE GOVERNMENT

    Big government can suck a *****..
    • somnus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Devil's advocate warning:

      Lofton gives the argument that's he wants his views imposed for the betterment of society, not just his kids. He's worried about the direction society could go if left exposed to that "garbage" (ie, to Hell). I would counter that society should decide it's path, just as natural flow decided where evolution would land us at this time. Who is any one man or woman, or any group (ie, the legislature, senate, etc) to decide the moral direction of any society?

      Protect the rights of the individual against harm, move as one to the betterment of life (roads, essential services), protect the individual from outside threats (national defense), and stay the hell out of everything else. Lofton comes across as the moron he is.
  • HateMoNGeR, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1pwnage
  • kd1s, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2Dupe dupe dupe dupe dupe, and old too. I saw this on Digg several months ago. Granted, it does beg being repeated every now and then because even today we're fighting the same battle.
  • brian2k1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I vote for personal responsibility. We don't need government for 80% of what they do, certainly not telling anyone what they should or should not ingest. Federal government should protect our borders and promote democracy that's it. That's what made our country great until the end of WWII when everything changed.

    In another 20 years our country will be full of government dependent looser's who blaim other people for their position in life and expect someone to help them fix it, oh wait that is now...
  • evildeadxsp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5i'll probably get dugg down for this... but this did hit the front page of digg about a year ago.

    but it's still great. zappa is a genius...

    "if you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library." - zappa

    (one of my favorite quotes)
  • lopla, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4John Lofton is a typical Christian NUTJOB one of the same 20%ers who support Bush. I truly wish they would get the F-out of America.
    • fotoman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Best lines from Zappa was "Can I make a statement about national defense? The biggest threat to America isn't Communism, it's moving America towards a Fascist Theocracy".

      "When you have a government that prefers a certain moral code derived from a certain religion and that moral code turns into legislation to suit one certain religious point of view..."

      This was said 21 years ago, and it's scary.

      "When Fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross"
      Sinclair Lewis, 1939
    • shibbzz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0that really is not a loving thing to say. if you want people to respect your opinion, don't tell other Amreicans to get the F out of America. especially when the conservative mindset was here first.
  • Double-Z, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I never realised what an amazing person Frank Zappa was. I've never been a great fan of his music, I like some of it and find some a little too "out-there", but I sure am a fan of his words. Such a shame he died.

    If they get Digg in heaven, Frank, God bless you for speaking your mind.
  • NymphoChik, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I see Sasha Baron Cohen as Frank Zappa and Jason Alexander as John Lofton in the movie version of Zappa's life.

    Let's get on it Hollywood Producers!
    • nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Sasha Baron Cohen as Frank Zappa"

      I'll shoot the producers, I swear I will.
    • rowanjl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1But they even look the same. It's always given me the creeps.
  • bengod, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"Fascist Theocracy is the biggest threat to America."

    Lord above he hit the nail on the head.

  • EriktheBard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is amazing. Do a google search for this video. There are several blogs discussing it. John Lofton (or someone working in his guise) has left the SAME comment about how he was Godzilla and Zappa was Bambi on each thread! Talk about insecure. John, you may have had the best of intentions back then, but you know the saying. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You lost this debate.
    • ig33k010011, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1that saying is 1: innacurate and 2: taken out of context.
  • toasty168, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3man, i had no idea zappa was so ***** cool

  • toasty168, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It's people like Lofton that are ***** this country up. They'd rather blow your head off than try and understand you and accept you for who you are. An individual who believes differently. Instead of seeking mutual acceptance and respect, these right-wing fanatics seek assimilation or destruction.

    Take back your country and do the world a favor. Register and Vote!!!
    • ig33k010011, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2and by mutual you mean left wing??
  • carbonetc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2When I look around at the post-apocalyptic Mad-Max-ish wasteland we live in today, I think to myself, "If only we'd listened to those supporters of censorship 20 years ago."

    They tried to warn us about the downfall of society, but we just wouldn't listen. Our comprehension of their prophetic vision came too late.

    Oh, to do it all over again...
  • BonerMachine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Frank Zappa was one of those special people that the world could use a million more of. He never used any illegal drugs or alcohol despite impressions of some of his listeners and critics, but he did smoke cigarettes and drink coffee constantly. Frank died at the too young age of 52 after a battle with prostate cancer. If anyone is interested in his music, I highly recommend the album mentioned in this video, We're Only In It For the Money. It's weird and not his most accessible work, but it's one of my favorite albums, and I consider it one of the greatest musical works of the 20th century.
    • ig33k010011, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1ok so he never used drugs.... that makes him normal. so what id he do that was so great? being the way you are supposed to be doesnt make you great.
  • JimGardner1973, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Women's liberation, came sweepin' all across the nation.
    I tell you people I was not read when I ***** this dike by the name of Freddie.
    She made a little speech then, ahh she tried t make me say when.
    She had my balls in a vice but she left the dick, I guess it's still hooked on but now it shoots too quick."

    You can't argue with lyrics like that. It's just like a penguin in bondage boy.
    • ig33k010011, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1...and that is why it needs to be sensored...
  • Energon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5“There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you do something we'd all love one another.”

    ~Frank Zappa
  • ott0, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1Before I watched this video I was for 100% free speech. Although I don't agree with Lofton on a moral ground, I found some of his comments insightful on a fundamental level. He's a smart guy, actually.

    Lofton is right that governments assume a moral stance when ruling a country. In America we take it as fundamental that murder is wrong, and so give our government the power to punish those who transgress this "fundamental wrong." But in fact this is a MORAL viewpoint that should not be taken for granted as fundamental. The government COULD decide not to restrict the personal freedom of murder. Then it would be up to the INDIVIDUAL to defend himself from his crazy neighbor who wants to stab him with a pitchfork and eat his flesh. There would be a lot more personal bodyguards in the world because the police wouldn't interfere.

    Now, let's consider "words," which is simply a metaphor for information as a whole which is disseminated and has the power to influence the public. There is no fundamental right to freedom of information. It is a MORAL right which the founding fathers agreed we should be entitled to, just as they agreed that we shouldn't be allowed to go around murdering other people when we're angry. But actually there are exceptions. I don't know much about law but I do know the "clear and present danger" rule. If speech creates a "clear and present danger" (like a guy yelling "fire!" in a theater when there really is not fire, causing people to stampede out and someone gets knocked over and trampled to death) that speech is not protected by the constitution. That was decided by some judge. Now humans and incredibly complex beasts, and it is impossible to define rules about what is right and wrong with respect to our behavior. The example of "clear and present danger" illustrates that. Most people will agree that not ALL speech should be free. Do you think it's okay for that guy to yell "fire!" in the crowded theater, with the result that someone dies? Probably not. But maybe you do. My point is that it's pointless to argue about morality because everyone has a different opinion and there is no right answer.

    So what I'm trying to say is, we've ALREADY given our government the power to make moral decisions for us (which was itself a moral decision!). The government restricts murder. Whether or not it should restrict free speech is just moving along the moral gradient of right and wrong which is not absolute and always changes and can never be fully agreed upon. I don't personally agree with Lofton's moral opinion that incest music should be censored. But I do think that the "fire!" guy should be censored. People like Frank Zappa who say there should be NO RESTRICTION are neglecting the complexity of human nature and the possible circumstances that can arrise in real life. Human behavior is too wide in scope to create definite rules like "all speech should be free."

    So the government should make laws KNOWING that it's taking a moral standpoint which will never be able to accommodate every circumstance, but which will function is most circumstances and is closest to the will of the people as a whole. So actually if I had to choose a winner of the debate I would choose Lofton.
    • ott0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0But that DOESN'T mean I agree with Lofton on a moral level. I, too, think he's kind of an idiot in some ways and shouldn't be so concerned with song lyrics. Only on a fundamental level do I agree with him and disagree with Zappa.
    • shibbzz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1wouldn't it be great if we had a manual to life that on which we could all set absolutes? the Bible...
    • ewc80, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"wouldn't it be great if we had a manual to life that on which we could all set absolutes? the Bible..."

      Don't whip out your decrepit holy book here on digg. Unless, that is, you like getting buried to -500 or so.
    • bruenig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2To say that he won the debate because he had one point is ridiculous. You admit that the morality we use is arbitrary. Lofton uses a different morality than Zappa which is why they come to different conclusions (remember the debate is over censoring rock lyrics). So at the very least, you cannot determine which side wins since the grounds upon which to make that decision is arbitrary. Because Lofton is arguing for a change in the status quo, it is his obligation to show a reason why that is necessary. Since he does not meet this burden (his approach of using a subjective unjustifiable standard of morality makes it impossible to meet it), he loses. I think you got real excited about a point you never heard concerning morality and went a bit overboard there.

      Zappa wins
    • ott0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Going back to my fundamental vs. moral argument :) I saw Lofton's argument on two levels.

      On the fundamental level, he was saying that the government has an obligation and a right to censor extreme material which it deems is dangerous (e.g. "fire!" man). Here I agree.
      On a moral level, he then urged the government to step up the censorship and restrict sexual song lyrics. Here I disagree.
      I saw these as his two main arguments.

      Zappa had one stance which encompasses the fundamental and moral levels: no censorship, period.

      In the real world, I would probably choose Zappa's standard over Lofton's standard, but I think the best is something closer to what we have now, which is in the middle. Wannabe Hitlers (if they exist) would probably not be able to carry out a campaign similar to the real Hitler's because at some point the government would step in. That's probably a good thing...

      So when I said that Lofton wins, I am referring to his core argument about the fundamental aspect of censorship which contrasts to Zappa's.

      Haha, I see that I'm getting dugg up and down for a grand total of 0 diggs. That's almost worse than just getting dugg down...

      EDIT: I posted this in the wrong place just now. Feel free to digg down the other version.
    • bruenig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2But if there exists no standard upon which to base censorship how can it be done. Majority decision? Well then that makes no sense, the whole idea of free speech is to protect the minority (the majority doesn't need to be protected). Censoring would be a terrible thing as it dictates that the government now has an admittedly arbitrary power to suppress whatever it wants or whatever the mob allows it to. Things work themselves out like Zappa says. If you have an idiot, there is no need to suppress him, his being an idiot will serve that purpose for you. The harms of allowing arbitrary censorship far outweigh any benefits and since there is no middle ground (seeing as what constitutes middle ground is impossible to derive without either defeating the very purpose of freedom of speech or setting up a situation where baseless arbitrary censorship is ok), there should be no censorship at all.
  • ig33k010011, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2dude that was pretty mean. don't tell people to get the f out of the country just because they arent you. isnt everyone entitled to their opinion?
  • ott0, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0Going back to my fundamental vs. moral argument :) I saw Lofton's argument on two levels.

    On the fundamental level, he was saying that the government has an obligation and a right to censor extreme material which it deems is dangerous (e.g. "fire!" man). Here I agree.
    On a moral level, he then urged the government to step up the censorship and restrict sexual song lyrics. Here I disagree.
    I saw these as his two main arguments.

    Zappa had one stance which encompasses the fundamental and moral levels: no censorship, period.

    In the real world, I would probably choose Zappa's standard over Lofton's standard, but I think the best is something closer to what we have now, which is in the middle. Wannabe Hitlers (if they exist) would probably not be able to carry out a campaign similar to the real Hitler's because at some point the government would step in. That's probably a good thing...

    So when I said that Lofton wins, I am referring to his core argument about the fundamental aspect of censorship which contrasts to Zappa's.

    Haha, I see that I'm getting dugg up and down for a grand total of 0 diggs. That's almost worse than just getting dugg down...
  • Phatlip012, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I love how they laugh at his fascism comment. If only they knew then what is going on in the world now...
  • supremechees, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2frank zappa is the man and one of the greatest and underrated guitarist ever!
  • IHaveIssues, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3God, how does he stay so calm - that is to be commended.
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