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Test Microsoft's new Web Design app! (EXCLUSIVE BETA)
aeroxp.net — Microsoft is testing their new Expression Web Design tool, and it's an EXCLUSIVE BETA! Once 5000 signups are done, the beta will be closed off and no one else can participate. So far, this promises to be better than front page (think Microsoft's own version of Dreamweaver) so I think this is worth signing up for.
gcnaddict- 780 diggs
- digg it
- gcnaddict, on 10/12/2007, -69/+4Digg it!!! >.
- dallen, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5I signed up. we will see
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7"Those who can do both use Dreamweaver"
Hardly. If any significant part of your site involves actual code, say, PHP for example, all you're going to be is frustrated at Dreamweaver's so-called features. It just gets in the way. I've used emacs exclusively for the last 6 months, and I've yet to regret dropping Dreamweaver.
EDIT: Oops. Pretend I replied to that comment by theone3
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V - h2d2, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I design all my sites with just EditPlus or xhtmlEdit and may be, sometimes Frontpage 2003 to get my tables right (that is ONLY if I can't get sometime right with DIVs). If you think Dreamweaver is a standard, you need to go and learn how to code... or start using stuff other than ColdFusion.
(Oops, I replied under the wrong comment too. Sorry.) - cdunn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4i like how you are putting down CF, yet talk about "getting tables right" and designing web pages....even going as far to say youve used frontpage....
anyone who thinks designing a website and using tags is "coding"....well....i assume that speaks for itself
i think you should keep quiet because you sound like an idiot
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7"Those who can do both use Dreamweaver"
- theone3, on 10/12/2007, -29/+16Why sign up? You know it'll be on the torrents in a few days time now.
Dreamweaver is awesome, it's the standard, and it's well supported. Why would I want to switch to a Microsoft program? I mean, you have to do some pretty dodgy stuff to get valid sites working in IE in the first place, and Presumably this is 'compatible' with IE, which means the sites you make with it are likely to be, in typical MS fashion, IE-Only. Why bother?- soopafly, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16"Dreamweaver is awesome, it's the standard"
When did Dreamweaver become the standard?? - neurokaotix, on 10/12/2007, -5/+61Your favorite text editor is the standard if you're worth your salt ;)
- Seumas, on 10/12/2007, -13/+7Dreamweaver may be the "Standard", but it's still pretty useless. It only integrates with things like ColdFusion and ASP. What good is that?!
- KCorax, on 10/12/2007, -27/+9"When did Dreamweaver become the standard??"
Have you been in a comma for the past 5 years ? - tehJR, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I do all my work in BBedit
- theone3, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18"Your favorite text editor is the standard if you're worth your salt ;)"
Yeah, but using a text editor won't earn you much salt!
If you actually want to do a large html project, an intergrated editor is the best way to go. It's easier to validate in, there are site and asset management features and there is, of course, the auto-closing tags and tag suggestion. - qsilentq, on 10/12/2007, -4/+38Yes, I am in a comma. I also spend a fair amount of time in an apostrophe.
- Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18There are those who can code, and then there are those who can design. Those who can do both use Dreamweaver...
- velocipenguin, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6I have been living beneath a semicolon for quite some time, you insensitive clod.
- CMoncur, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"If you actually want to do a large html project, an intergrated editor is the best way to go. It's easier to validate in, there are site and asset management features and there is, of course, the auto-closing tags and tag suggestion." ~theone3
That's a matter of opinion. Personally I work much faster using notepad than any web design application like Dreamweaver. The problem with Dreamweaver is, that it thinks it knows what you want. I dislike the way dreamweaver formats your code, and I would rather not try to take the time to make it format the way I like it, because it is a waste of time, when I should be really be "working towards my salt." - foovo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14"Your favorite text editor is the standard if you're worth your salt ;)"
text editor?
LUXURY!
Back in my day we used to have to peek & poke bits and we only got zeros on a Sunday if we were extra lucky. - positron, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Zend Studio for teh win!
- m85476585, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I like the suggest feature (especially when working in CSS, but v6 aka MX doesn't have that) and highlighting. Otherwise I would probably use a text editor mort of the time.
What about Nvu? I still haven't tried it. - tehciv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Why sign up? You know it'll be on the torrents in a few days time now."
Is that why you don't buy software too?
- soopafly, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16"Dreamweaver is awesome, it's the standard"
- SparQy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/default.mspx
Direct link- bouche, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12thanks for the direct link.
I absolutely HATE it when people post links to their own site instead of the direct link. There should be some sort of "tar and feather" system that kicks in when people do that. - battybattybatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4-2 diggs should be applied to an additional "Problems" choice called "Indirect Link", just below the Bad Link choice.
- bouche, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12thanks for the direct link.
- Jovan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Well, it's over already.
- stinkyj, on 10/12/2007, -15/+4YES! i've been waiting for frontpage 2007!
- mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14A monkey at a keyboard is better than FrontPage. And the description sounds like an overenthusiastic spam chain letter. It's frankly really hard to get excited about a johnny-come-lately, unnecessary app from Microsoft when the existing options are pretty much perfect.
- battybattybatt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Actually, when dealing with 64 bit graphics, Dreamweaver will not cut it. For awhile in Vista, you will only be able to use this "New" Microsoft stuff or Adobe stuff - except for the Web App, because Adobe's Web App sucks now.
- SparQy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8theone3: this is not a webpage designer, think if as a cross between Macromedia Flash, Frontpage, and Visual Studio. Previously known as Sparkle, check out the interview with Manuel Clements on Channel9.msdn.com if you want an informed outlook.
http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=115387
SparQy.- zootm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Nah, this is the web designer. There's three products - Web Designer, Interactive Designer, and Graphic Designer. Interactive Designer used to be called Sparkle, it's the one you're thinking of (and from the Channel9 videos, it's incredibly impressive). Graphic Designer is what used to be called Acrylic, and my only experience with it makes me think it's the hardest piece of vector graphics software I've ever had to use, although I've not used that many.
- neurokaotix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Thanks for linking to the forum rather than the page with the program. I had to wait 30 seconds for that poor forum to load. I could have missed the sign-up because of that!
- battybattybatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You did miss the signup for the Web App NOW, but Sparkle and Acrylic are still available for download.
- spyyder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4What happened to microsoft frontpage?
- illusionfxp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I believe it was renamed to Sharepoint Designer for Office 12.
- neurokaotix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I think they pulled that product because it sucked (my opinion, of course).
edit: @illusionfxp - if that is correct, thanks for the info, I thought they had pulled it. Makes you wonder why they would create two different apps that do (basically) the same thing. - illusionfxp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I checked, it's going to be Sharepoint Designer.
- battybattybatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The Web Designer does not publish using http, it only publishes ftp or sftp (Macromedia-like default), thus if you are using Server Extensions or Sharepoint Srvices in your site, you will get ***** occasionally (extensions will fail) with Service providers that refuse to install Extensions or Sharepoint according to the Instructions from the ground up.
However, SharePoint Designer will still behave EXACTLY like FrontPage 2003 (or XP, same in a different box), except with the already ADDITONAL SharePoint Services (but only will work if your ISP or you own Installation is running SharePoint Services).
- volcompimp, on 10/12/2007, -9/+15Sweet! Let's make it even easier for people to code against standards!
- chicken101, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8look at the training videos at: http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/demos.mspx?v=expression_vision
It makes it easier to code to standards, sorry. - battybattybatt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1You haven't seen the video yet.
- Herolint, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@chicken101
This is a marketing piece. Of course, when you get the final product, you will have a tool that shoves ASP.NET and other Microsoft technologies down your throat and it will be equally frustrating to people who know how to do web programming already because it will want you to conform to Microsoft's way of doing things. That's how all their tools are. I'm not saying they are bad tools, but they aren't for everybody.
Also, In my opinion, if I can't develop and use it on my BSD box, then it isn't a standard. :) - volcompimp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@chicken101
Exactly what herolint said... Didn't they try and market the whole office xml thing the same way?
- chicken101, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8look at the training videos at: http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/demos.mspx?v=expression_vision
- chicken101, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"So far, this promises to be better than front page"
That makes me smile on the inside.- funkytaco, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2It makes me smile too, because FrontPage is the standard. Though, seriously, I did like FrontPad.
- 413x, on 10/12/2007, -12/+3Why did you mention the term BETA? Isn't that what Microsoft is all about? ;)
- neurokaotix, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21You're thinking of Google.
- viruz, on 10/12/2007, -12/+2No, that's google
- volcompimp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2As he said, that's Google... If they're all about beta then why would they keep pushing back vista while ditching taking out feature after feature? Personally I don't even wanna know how ***** a Microsoft beta would be seeing how bad their finished products are. They make money off of upgrades not betas.
- richardiscool, on 10/12/2007, -20/+5OMG ROFFLES NOW I CAN PUT TABLES ON MY XANGA PAGE LMAO!1!!
- ThisIsMyName, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16"So far, this promises to be better than front page"
So it's a nicer piece of ***** than their last piece of *****?- chicken101, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Exactly! -MS Marketing Exec
- Seumas, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"So far, this promises to be better than front page"
As long as it deploys proprietary and non-standard HTML, etcetra -- who cares? That was the worst thing about frontpage above all.- rekka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It couldn't possibly be any worse. *shudders.
- hchaudh1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I am developing a webapp and God knows how much time I spend after writing my code which works for pretty much every browser, to hack it and bend it so that it will also work with IE. I wish MS would just do away with their monstrosity and either start over or concede.
Besides, Adobe's products are tried and tested. I use them and they produce code for not only HTML, CSS and JavaScript, but also for JSP, ASP, ColdFusion etc. etc. I don't think MS Expression will be supporting any rival technologies.- battybattybatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1They did start over, with Web Designer, but unfortunately NOT with SharePoint Designer.
- apoc06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i think he means start over with the way that IE renders pages.
- SparQy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16Has anyone bothered to check out the program? Seriously, it's NOT Frontpage, not by a mile.
Just sit back and watch the video of the walk through:
http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=115387
or the marketing-oriented STANDARDS COMPLIANCE video here:
http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/web_designer/demos.mspx?v=wd_standards
Microsoft actually got it right this time. Let's lay off the blind M$ Bashing.
[sigh]
DIGG- neurokaotix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I think you're right and I'm very excited about this. If you guys haven't done so already, watch the video he linked to.
- Bobius, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I just like the fact that if you watch the video about standards, you will notice that it checks for compliance to CSS 1.0, CSS 2.x, and CSS IE6.. See IE6 is standards compliant. They just have their own standard!
- kingamoon, on 10/12/2007, -12/+14Anybody else sick of morons like this poster who link through a forum/blog? How about linking to directly to the intended page you ***** *****!!!
Anyway .... - bastawhiz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Signups are dead
- nerdtek, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Microsoft and web design software hmmm can anyone say Oxymoron. Even if they claim it's not another Frontpage, I don't believe it. Once bitten twice shy, and I would say how many times I've had trouble with MS development software of any kind, let alone web design.
- neurokaotix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It's not just a web design app. Expression(s) (whatever it's called) is the name of their suite of design tools. There is an application for graphic design (looks very easy to use with an advanced feature set), a web design application which I can't get a real feel for without using it (hard to tell the ins and outs from a video), an interface designer which seems like it might be able to create interfaces for applications and possibly a Microsoft alternative to Flash (unsubstantiated, just what I can tell from the video). Expressions also plays well with VS.NET 2005 to create and deploy applications and web application backends.
- runnerct, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4adobe owns dreamweaver dumb ass
- johnsee, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3erm... Adobe owns dreamweaver
- scar45, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0yea this is supposed to be the new Sharepoint Designer 2007 from the office 12 suite. Too bad it's over though because i've got a project to do for work...total redesign of a WSS portal (and multiple themes at that)...oh well...back to the Sharepoint files thru crappy frontpage for now.
Looks good if MS jumps on the web standards bandwagon tho...i could definitely use not having to worry about browser wars anymore!- michaeldorian, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Actually this is not the Share Point Designer 2007 - That is FrontPage renamed. This is a true professional level dev tool that us used to fill the void that Visual Studio had in terms of there web design surface.
- Plik, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3I signed up about three | four days ago, i just want to see if microsoft to get it "right" for once :P
Anyway, not dugg, because imo it's old :P - gbeirne, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Genital leprosy is better than Frontpage, so they've not had that much work to do to better that.
- Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I think you're being too kind. There are worse things, though... like making webpages in Word *shudder*
- gbeirne, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Thank you for bringing that up.
I'm going to have to flog myself for three hours for thinking about that now.
- figmund, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I watched some of the videos and it's not a rehash of Frontpage. But I do have to laugh a little that they push the standards compliant issue a lot - and that you can preview it in "any browser" without actually having to go to the browser itself. Of course, the "any browsers" listed in the pull-down are all IE. And the last time I checked, IE isn't fully standards compliant, so why promote that this thing can build fully standard compliant pages - as IE might not display 'em properly. Anyway, it looks to be a decent competitor to Dreamweaver - and should keep Adobe on its toes.
- illusionfxp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1....and the forum goes down
- mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Microsoft has called their software coded to standards before...but they consider coding to IE standard, since it's the most prevalent browser; not W3 standards. Beware when they say this app will code to standards...in MS World, that "coding to standards" doesn't mean the same thing as "standards compliant."
- chicken101, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Watch the videos and get informed about the product before bashing it.
- neurokaotix, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Blah blah blah anti-Microsoft crap. We've all been watching Microsoft's transformation from IE-standards to W3-standards over the last year. Have you missed every single article about IE7? The IE team is actually putting effort forth to fix this.
- mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2By the way, Microsoft dubs it "standards-based," not "standards compliant," which is what they've dubbed IE and Frontpage before because it would code to Microsoft's versions of these standards, as usual.
- chicken101, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Watch the videos and get informed about the product before bashing it.
- andytheidiot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'll check it out. And competition is good for the market. If their product provides a serious threat, it'll help things out. In the long run.
- salmonmoose, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Better than frontpage :)
so it's ... like... notepad? - kiddailey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Anyone else find it amusing that the guy on the MS Expressions main page is bending over with his hands behind his back? Is Microsoft trying to tell us something? :) (lol - sorry, couldn't resist)
- michaeldorian, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I saw this program at MIX06 and its pretty awesome. a lot of the comments on here are untrue. I am a dreamweaver user but this program is a step above especially for front-end development. The display surface is not base on IE at all but written from the ground up for standards. You'll be surprise how non - IE this program is. Also IE7 is much more standard compliant they even mentioned in the Keynote that IE-6 was a mistake. Anyhow if you were able to see a demo of the CSS management and standard compliant features of the program you know this program is very un-Microsoft and nothing like front page. Front page is now positioned as a designer for there share point services.
I don't know I think people should research the product before just throwing out the regular old M$ bashing. It's really getting old. - Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3So Microsoft is making their own program for graphic design? Considering how most designers use Macs, something tells me they're going to have a little bit of trouble trying to win over the communities with Windows-only software. I'll stick with Illustrator/Photoshop/Dreamweaver kthnx.
- michaeldorian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Actually this is not a graphic tool but a web dev tool. "Illustrator/Photoshop/Dreamweaver" workflow is great but falls apart in the real world where ASP.NET has a strong following. You'll actually be suprised at how many web design shops are PC based. This has nothing to do with graphic design. These tools are focus for application interface development and is not meant to replace your "Illustrator/Photoshop/Dreamweaver" workflow. It works out nicely for designers who also work with the dev team on larger project. As much as you may not like the application development community is still largely windows based.
- neurokaotix, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Most designers, ey?
Ask around.
- hankyone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6-------------
NO NEED TO GO TO THAT FORUM;
JUST GO THERE: https://connect.microsoft.com/availableprograms.aspx
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thnks for your attention ;) - MoeB, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/demos.mspx?v=expression_vision
- Ducklake, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't see it, am i missing something?
- HCT01, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0the programs look promising from what i see in the videos
- NorthernDude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.microsoft.com/products/expression/en/graphic_designer/gd_free_trial.aspx
How about there? Requires registration and is active for 180 day trial. There are also a few other files necessary to run it. You'll see it on the trial page.- Tryforceful, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2isn't that the *graphic* designer, and not the web designer?
- mark1372, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7I love how people complain that Microsoft bashing is getting old when I can't think of a company on earth that more effectively brings it on themselves. They have all the resources they want at their fingers, a virtually bottomless bank account, and are right there at the forefront of technology with the rest of their competitors...yet they continually, bafflingly continue to release second-rate products whilst leveraging their hard-tactic stranglehold over the IT world.
As far as I'm concerned, Microsoft has absolutely no excuse for almost all of the *****-ups they've committed (and seem to rarely learn from) over the years. When you have a monopoly and most people are forced to use your products on a daily basis, your customers SHOULD take you to task rather than settling for "good enough" or resigning themselves out of frustration to a culture of mediocrity.
If that's bashing Microsoft, then I think they can take it. I, for one, think they deserve a whole lot more, which they don't get because the majority of the PC-using public simply doesn't know any better. I'm not defending Apple either, but I can't fathom why a company as wealthy and talent-rich as Microsoft is such an enormous consistent ***** up. Almost every wave of hype they create results in eventual lowered expectations, and that's unfortunate and should be unnecessary. - icexe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4if it's truly "standards based" like they claim, then it would generate websites that break spectacularly in IE. Unless the generated CSS automatically includes all the stupid IE hacks that web designers have to hand code nowadays?
- jabelar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I think it does ... it checks for CSS IE6 in addition to the "real" standards ...
- Shorties, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I don't see the Web Designer, is it past 5000 signups? :(
- Metal_Guru, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It's not on the list... am I missing something or am I late?
- DeezKnots, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Microsoft != Design
Nice to see another xhtml gui though. - thegsa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Does Anyone Have a Direct Link?
- Shorties, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah someone please to the signup because its not listed anymore
- thegsa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Not The Signup, But The Direct Link To The File, Because I Don't Want to register with microsoft
- djdole, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Is it REALLY exclusive if it's being advertised?
...and is accepting people from digg and slashdot and the like?
Doesn't seem that EXCLUSIVE to me... :-/
It's not like they are picking and choosing from everyone for 5000 SELECT people...thay don't care who, you just have to be one of the first 5000.
If it's only the first 5000 people, then it's not exclusive...it's A LIMITED number.- udha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2take a chill-pill, English is ambiguous at the best of times. It doesn't change the meaning of the story, I won't be testing it though, it's just a long shot, but I'm guessing windows would be required to run it, oh well.
- ownedbytheman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's no longer in the list of available programs leading me to believe they have reached the 5000 mark.
- mikev, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If Microsoft keeps up with their stupid iLife rips, we will see Vista by the time I am dead.
- thymes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1If they want this to be a sucess should make an OS X version. Until they do so it won't touch Dreamweaver.
- Shorties, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This really wont affect iLife there still is nothing like iDVD on the market today...Microsoft make an iDVD rip-off!
- zyko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The expressions graphic designer used to be creature house expressions. MS bought it and basically made it into bloatware by adding low-end photoshop raster capabilities. Anyway creature house also developed but never finished a program called living cells for animation. I believe MS thinks they are going to use this technology to compete with flash. Dream on MS.
MS software is going to be biased towards its own technology, so those that use anything other than MS proprietary code can be damned sure to have problems. -
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