What is Digg?93 Comments
- wired4u, on 10/12/2007, -2/+51It is ok to be an amateur, but please do the internet a favor and do not use Frontpage.
- armbar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+23You sound like a stereotypical fat football coach who's eating on the sideline while yelling at the players because what they're doing "isn't hard".
- armbar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20For web development, there's not really any other way than to learn by yourself. Schools inevitably teach you outdated materials, and the teachers are at an amateur level themselves.
I still get a kick when people talk about web-safe color palettes because that's what their teacher taught them. - Louis11, on 10/12/2007, -8/+26You're a piss *****. Go to hell.
- krypnos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14@gmurray
"We really need more self-taught amateur developers!"
Com'on, now. People are self-taught in most cases (it seems) because they actually love doing it and WANT to do it. I've seen people who program simply because they can, and don't truly love it. They get lazy and just give up on certain parts of the code. I'm all for encouraging those who love doing something to do it more. They are the ones who are going to bust their asses to make things right, and do the best at it. - dotlizard, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16banning somehow seems so ... inadequate in this instance. it would be fun to hunt '1900' down & beat him/her/it repeatedly about the head & neck with a rubber mallet.
[edited] oops hit wrong reply link. mouse hand was a little shaky from repressing anger and stuff. - maestroh, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16id hate to have to learn everything i know over again. i cant imagine becoming a web programmer from a n00b standpoint
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18WOW! Now THAT is what I call a good description! Where do I sign up?
- xutopia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Show us one web site you made.
- pixelguru, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13I stopped reading at this:
>> Many programmers start off using a WYSIWYG editor such as Frontpage and then graduate to more professional programs such as Dreamweaver.
As someone who is a self-taught web developer, the best thing to start with is a basic text editor. Once you grasp the fundamentals of html, go splurge on a code editor with code hinting and syntax coloring - there are plenty for under $100. The absolute LAST thing you need is Frontpage. - diggityiggity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12@krypnos:
Thanks for that comment. I think self-teaching is the best way to learn most technologies surrounding computers today (*most, not all*). I tend to pick things up much more quickly by researching, reading, and doing things myself. I also try to pay attention to those with experience (like the people below trashing FrontPage) and heed their advice.
So, all you out there who disdain self-taught amateurs, bring the hate if you want. I want to learn for fun and self-gratification. It's nice knowing that some of you support what I'm doing. - brianez21, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Hey asshat,
I'm a self-taught web developer with years of experience, and while I think that there are some people who would be better off not making pages, I can say that anybody who has the time and patience to go out and buy a few books on web design, etc. and learn it solidly has just as much of a right to develop sites as the next guy.
Thanks for your kind words,
Brian - Verdanic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Please explain to me why Frontpage is listed... Even Microsoft recognized its horrible, horrible soul.
Otherwise, great article. - theVariable, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9What was the writer even thinking by putting FrontPage at the top of the list?
- krypnos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9From the page:
"... This phase is a first baby step into the world of web development; use it to learn from, but don't rely on these programs to build your sites forever. A real programmer programs; the job should not require a software program."
I'm not going to get into an argument over whether or not Web Development is programming or not, because I know some people still debate that, but this makes a STRONG point. I wouldn't want someone not knowing what's going on behind the scenes doing the work for me. Reminds me of a class that was going on in a Computer Lab I was in, in which the instructor said that MS Word is a "fantastic tool" for professional web development. Personally, I think those tool made sites aren't as aesthetically pleasing as the ones done by hand. I don't do pro web-dev though, so maybe some tools are better than others. It's vim for me. - gspederson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@krypnos
"I'm not going to get into an argument over whether or not Web Development is programming or not...."
just to weigh in, if you are talking about XHTML, I agree that's not coding. If you are talking about CSS you are getting closer. And if you are talking about languages like JavaScript, PHP, Ruby on Rails then absolutely that is programming. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Amen!
- armbar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I agree with you to a point, but I think syntax highlighting and code formatting are good regardless of your level. It's hard for newbies to look at a wall of black text to figure out which 6th-level nested table they screwed themself into this time.
- jasonhazel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5i'm a big fan of notepad++ ( http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm ) tabs and syntax highlighting ftw.
- thebaconmonster, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6dugg down for windows only software... ***** that.
- crzdmn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8What college you went to = What platform you write for
Enjoy being taught into a box - Joyrex, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Any school/institute that lists Frontpage as a web development tool gets no Digg in my book... very amateurish, and this is exactly what beginning web developers need to AVOID.
- djbelieve, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6WTF is up with this guy? Has anyone actually clicked on his links?
- samuelcotterall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4As someone who's studied web development for five years, taught himself XHTML, CSS, XML, JavaScript, Ruby On Rails, MySQL and PHP (as mentioned) and is just about to graduate I would say one thing "Learn .NET".
I hated anything to do with .NET, and I obsess over Rails, but in my area I've come across thousands of .NET jobs, a few dozen PHP jobs and nothing Rails related. With my skill set (that skill set) I'm looking at junior web designer jobs. - addicted68098, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Rule #4 include random pictures with articles to improve accessablity.
- Verdanic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Well put - I self-taught myself everything through raw code, and it's led to my general dislike for WYSIWYG web development programs as they really don't output satisfactory code, nor do they really teach you anything that can be used in other environments.
When I'm helping someone getting started with web design I always tell them to open up a code editor or notepad, give them the base for the page (probably with tables as getting into tableless layouts is a bit drastic from the get-go), and explain what they need to know/give them a tag reference library. - andrewbmoore, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I've found that idiots like this have their account deleted pretty quickly, which makes blocking less enjoyable. What a shame... :/
- Gzero, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5armbar: I agree with you, but why would they be making a six-level nested table? The only instance where using one would actually make sense...wait, no, it never makes sense.
- diggityiggity, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5DickButterworth: too dense to learn something without hand-holding.
- GopherChucks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4SPOILER ALERT!
It's a picture of a lake. Just a lake. - gameguy43, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4learning to program for the web is really quite easy, php is VERY easy to pick up and there are some nice forums out there to help you out. Plus learning markup and styling and script and all that stuff is so easy because you have access to it all over the place by just hitting view > source
- samuelcotterall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I recommend "CSS Mastery: Advanced Web Standards Solutions" by Andy Budd (1590596145) - that HTML you learned years ago hasn't changed a great deal, but it's all about CSS these days, and that book really covers the main points.
- ericpuidokas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I like how the article is scattered with wildlife photography. Those photos sure are relevant.
- armbar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3If you haven't found anything, it's because you're not looking in the right places (no offense, by the way).
Try this...it's an aggregate job listing page: http://www.artypapers.com/jobpile/ - kevmaguire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This guy should write copy for the Movementarians - I'd join any cult saying that sort of stuff!
- Verdanic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Syntax highlighting is great for new developers too - especially with auto-indent tools PSpad is absolutely great - http://pspad.com.
- diggityiggity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@DickButterbean,
Let's imagine that you were to receive my resume (I'd say that would never happen, but thanks to internet anonymity, you never know...). In addition to a college degree, almost a decade in the software industry, a wide range of technical, consulting, and people skills, numerous certifications relevant to my specific segment of the software industry (not web design) and other segments as well, and a stack of great references, you might find something saying I also taught myself web design.
Would you still accuse me of being lazy, doped-addled scum who took the easy 24-hour way?
I bet not. Just sayin'
By the way, you missed 4:20 today *****. - inkswamp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm a self-taught professional web developer and programmer. I went to college, but I didn't study computer science or anything related to web development. I've since worked with a steady stream of people who were college-educated in the areas of web development and programming and none of them (save one) were worth a hill of beans when it came to this kind of work. None of them could code for ***** and most of what they did looked textbook-ish in nature and all of it lacked a sense of passion and purpose. I have worked with so many who have sleepwalked through this that it makes me ill. You could just see the traces of "I'm just doing this because this is what I learned in college" attitude in everything they did. And when I've gone to our company's corporate headquarters to meet with colleagues in my position from around the nation, I got more of the same--well-educated and lacking in vision and creativity and largely unable to put their knowledge to use in any way beyond what they were taught. Invariably, it is the self-taught ones I run across who really have some clue as to what they're doing.
So screw you and your attitude. I have nothing against higher education, but it's a tool not an end. From what I've seen, the self-taught ones out there should be treated like gold. - gspederson, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6@louis11
Have you ever made a web site? Sure you can whip out something quick and dirty with programs like Dreamweaver, but if you want a site worth anything it is much harder than you probably think.....especially if you want a dynamic database driven site, for this I personally use Ruby on Rails.
I agree the the above post, let's see some of your work, assuming you have any. - reddevil3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm taking a web development course in college right now and yes, I agree that web development can easily be self-learned.
Oh and as for learning "what platform to write for", I learned a lot of languages in college. Java/C/C++/Assembly/Lisp/Prolog/etc. Plus this web development course has given me the chance to learn Perl, PHP, Ruby on Rails, XML, etc (mostly at the basic/intermediate level of course). - gspederson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Instead of CSS Mastery, I'd recommend Beginning CSS Web Development: From Novice to Professional by Simon Collison
This book was released August 2006, so it's more updated. Also, Simon Collison was a contributor to CSS Mastery with Andy. - willcoll, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Notepad ftw!
- sketchydave, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Install Ubuntu with one of the many guides out there and get Quanta Plus which is Dreamweaver-equivalent and while you're at it install PHP, Apache, and MySQL to have a professional environment to start writing code and best of all it costs no money.
- KSUdesigner, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3My college classes taught HTML only, which was fine at the time (many years ago), but now my boss has asked me to completely redesign our website. I've been working strictly in print since graduation and realized that I don't know ***** about web programming these days. This site will probably come in handy, but right now I'm working my way through the tutorials on lynda.com. I'm finding the section "CSS for designers" to be invaluable so far. I'd highly recommend checking it out, though you do have to pay $25/mo. for their service, but well worth it IMO.
- inkswamp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2BBEdit, all the way. :^)
When I started my current job six years ago, my "web developer" co-workers were using DreamWeaver for everything which was a nightmare for me. I hated it, but gradually I've managed to move the site off it and now it's pretty much forbidden. Those kinds of programs, in the long run, really cause more problems than they solve. You're better off having a solid plan for managing your site than relying on the often convoluted inner workings of a Web page program like that. That's especially true for bigger sites. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Secret of self-taught web developers: Do not expect anything overnight.
- SwellGuy007, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@DickButterworth -
Of the potential developers we look at hiring, the ones that come from "Web School" generally are the most inexperienced and require the most hand holding. They are often taught outdated material by someone who barely knows development themselves. The ones who are self taught generally have a much wider skill set and are better suited to problem solving and sourcing out solutions.
This is not true in all cases obviously, but for the most part web school is a waste of money when you can learn this stuff on your own if you are halfway intelligent and halfway motivated. It is a shame that these so called web development schools make so much money and offer so little return. - crzdmn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yep, .NET gets me many opportunities... if you know C# just learn Java too, it's you can find simple C# to Java comparisons all over the web.
- sketchydave, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Oh and not to be overly snarky, but if you are "just about to graduate" of course you're only looking at junior web designer jobs!
Developer jobs go to those who have proven themselves and have years of experience in the industry. Be happy to get a job in your field at all when first starting out. Some free advice, if you get a good offer as a designer, take it. The lines between design and development are getting blurrier everyday and you can easily turn a web design position into at least part developer. Build your portfolio and most importantly, KEEP LOOKING FOR WORK. The saying "you need a job to get a job" is very much reality.
(from someone who just graduated 5 years ago) - krypnos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@gspederson
Uh, you kinda' hit the nail on the head there. Those sentiments mirror mine exactly. On all counts. -
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