What is Digg?90 Comments
- benc, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31Wow, talk about burning bridges. A word of advice: web design is more than technical know-how and an eye for good design. There's also something called professionalism.
No matter how many times you assert that you respect your client, etc., it's still extremely unprofessional to post something like this. The right thing to do when a client ignores your advice is always to accept your payment and quietly omit the site from your portfolio. - theone3, on 10/12/2007, -7/+30Here's my reply to this on the blog:
You are displaying a profound lack of professionalism in posting this. Having a blog is great fun and really interesting. But as a web designer working as a professional (yes, I know, you're 16. I've been designing since I was 11, I'm 18 now), you should understand that you have to have some professional courtesy in these situations.
Here is where you have failed.
1. "I went out and developed my theme %u2014 mostly shades of tan and brown, and many classy symbols."
YOU should have set out a contract and strict criterion before starting ANY work, ideation, or planning. This is especially important as a designer, because once you fill your brain with ideas, things like color schemes & fonts, it's extremely hard to throw them out and start working based on the criterion.
As an example, let's say that I (an average person, not a trained teacher) told you that I wanted you to write an essay on Politics, and that I wanted you to start planning. You might think of thousands of ideas and plan hundreds of attacks. After half an hour, I tell you to write about Bulgarian Politics. No problem, right? Off to Wikipedia to find out about Bulgarian Politics. But then, I tell you to write about the History of Bulgarian Politics. At this point, you're frustrated, and will probably end up giving me a substandard essay that probably relates to Bulgarian political history and how it relates to todays global political scene. Which isn't what I asked for. But if you had forced me to give you a set criterion to begin with - say: " Describe the Political situation in Bulgaria from 1950-1994", you might have delivered a much better result.
Ask the client to describe every issue that they might have with the site. Why do they need it? DO they need it? What restrictions are there?
2. "It seems a lot of this happened because they didn't really understand the concept of a website. To them it was exactly like an online brochure. "
They wanted an online brochure, not a website, so that's what you deliver. That's what they're paying you for. And as a good designer, you do a good job of it. Remember, websites are more effort than brochures. These guys have a business to run and things to do. Professionalism is not about the ability to do a job, or about the ability to do it well. It's about the ability to provide a seamless service.
3. "Designers and developers should take time to talk to their clients about these issues and convince them that by cooperating with each other they can make a better looking and more effective product."
Designers need to take the initiative to ask everything that needs to be asked. Designers need to take the initiative to set up a structure for transactions of knowledge and ideation to occur, and they need to do this before they start. 16 year olds should not be trying to change the world, they should be trying to understand it.
I hope you do not take this as a personal attack. It is not intended to be one. I have learnt these things the hard way. I was 16 only two years ago, and I do remember what it was like working as you are now. It was incredibly frustrating. But take the time to learn what is required of you in the real world. Remember that others are people just as you are, and lack knowledge, just as you do. And most importantly, remember that your professionalism will earn you more than your talent. And you're getting a hell of a head start.
BUT: Posting this to your blog is not good karma. What kind of prospective client wants to see that one of your previous customers gave up on getting a decent design out of you because of their frustration with your level of professionalism? - gatorsrule21, on 10/12/2007, -1/+22Everything is about first impressions though. I look at a site, and I am much more likely to stay on a well designed site, even if it lacks content depth, even if to just appreciate and take apart the design. I have literally left sites just because the color scheme bothered me or it just doesn't look like an effort was made.
A website is an extension of the person or business that it is representing. Business owners should look at a website as an extension of their storefron and a person should realize that good design will help their cause, whatever it is. - oni0n56, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20Design isn't all about looking good though. Simplicity and usability is a design form in itself. Typography, colors, positioning - all that is important, even for a news site. It's more than flashy graphics.
- Rigbymatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18@ SuperSloth
i have a better example
http://www.myspace.com - circusbred, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18He took it down. Taken from http://www.aprilzero.com.nyud.net:8080/?blog/comments/leaving_design_choices_to_designers/
Nick Usborne has already proven that design choices are paramount to the success of a site. For example, I would never buy from a website that used comic sans and dark blue font on a black background, or at least I would feel very uncomfortable.
A website should at least be decent, if not awesome. A stunning design isn't necessary, but definitely helps.
Good design creates a feeling of professionalism and authenticity, very reassuring to visitors. Some sites feel dodgy and low budget, even if they are giant corporations.
This is a guide for excellent client/designer communication and relations. This is a cautionary tale and a horror story. Clients and designers alike should learn from this. Designers should do their part in talking to and explaining things to their clients, and clients should place some trust in their appointed designers. Both parties should express their opinions and then be willing to compromise in favor of a better site.
I just want to make one thing clear. I have nothing against these people and am not trying to make fun of them. They're great people, and I'm sure they're good at what they do. Not everyone is good at web design and that is to be expected. That is why they hire someone who is — but oftentimes, as in this case, they end up shortchanging themselves.
Read On.
How It All Started
The Madness Begins!
A month or two ago, my business partner asked me to create a mockup for a potential client — a seaside hotel whose site he had previously worked on. It was a ‘victorian style' building, and I had always wanted to build a site of this type. A few years ago I had experimented with this sort of theme on my blog but it hadn't worked out, so I was really looking forward to this opportunity.
I went out and developed my theme — mostly shades of tan and brown, and many classy symbols. A few days and six or seven mockups later, I had a design which I was quite pleased with. It was a just a mockup so I was hoping to tweak it and refine it more as I would code it. Unfortunately, I didn't know what kind of people I would be dealing with.
Again, just for the record, I don't have anything against these people. They are very nice people and successful business owners, and I respect them. They are however, way behind the times, in terms of web design. This article is written as an example, and to prevent something like this from happening again.
Disaster Strikes
Houston We Have a Problem!
The first thing to go was the color scheme. My beautiful color scheme! I had spent hours picking just the right shades of brown, and making sure they blended well together. The request was for a blue, red and green color scheme. By now, I was having a bad feeling about the site.
One should note that the original site was pretty terrible, mostly because there were giant scanned roses, with edges clipped off, floating around the site — and just a general disarray. They told me they needed the rose to be on this site too. I tried to make things better and have the rose transparent with a quote over it. They liked the idea, but wanted the rose fully colored — resulting in black text over a green stem and red rose, resulting in barely readable text.
The next request was to replace the classy cursive logo I had created for them, with their mediocre script logo, which was just block letters. I didn't really mind this, except for the fact that the only logo they gave me was a small gif on a solid background — resulting in rough edges. I was told to use an italic font since that was the ‘victorian style.'
It seems a lot of this happened because they didn't really understand the concept of a website. To them it was exactly like an online brochure. In the end, everyone (their target market, etc) thought the original mockup was better than the final version, by far.
In the end, I ended up with a terrible design. I should have had a long talk with the client and get them to go with the original design, and tried to, but apparently it didn’t work.
* Version 3 (Mine)
* Version 7 (Good)
* Version 8 (Changed Colors)
* Version 9 (No Green)
* Version 11 (Fubar)
* Version 13 (Final)
Surprisingly, they were happy with the end result. I was expecting them to realize in the end that what they had created was an abomination.
The moral of the story is that while design choices can cripple a website, clients need to do this so they do not inadvertently cripple their own site.
Analysis
What’s Could’ve Been Done Better?
In any scenario, multiple opinions should be taken. Surveys with your target audience are especially important, and a good indication of how the site will be welcomed by the market. In this case, people, including the type of people who would probably be customers, unanimously agreed that the first version was far better than the end result.
I have a pool of five or ten people whom I regularly show my designs to, and get feedback and opinions. I take into consideration all their complaints and suggestions, and then do what I as the designer think would be best.
Oftentimes, people have an undeveloped eye for design and cannot always accurately judge a design. This is true for possible clients, as well as anyone else. Designers should take this into consideration, and not blindly do everything that is suggested or requested.
People will always want something changed or added, thinking it will be better. Sometimes they are right but sometimes they are not. Rrequests and suggestions should be taken into consideration, and then applied if they are worthy.
Conclusion
What Have We Learned?
Now I am by no means saying that a client's opinion is unimportant. It is their site and they are paying for it — they should be happy with what they get. Don't build a site for them and say “it is good for you, whether you like it or not.”
Instead, survey their tastes and ideas, and then build something that is well designed but matching to their tastes and their audience.
Now, problems occur when clients have a strong idea of what they want, and are stubborn about it. It is even worse when they do not effectively communicate what they want. Then countless designs are turned down, simply because they do not match what they had in mind.
Clients should try to keep an open mind and designers should strive to find out what the client would like.
When starting a project, here are a few things to consider as a client, or ask as a designer.
* Sites that you like
* Color schemes (dark,light,green,blue and orange, etc.). This is especially important when the company has an existing stationary, uniforms, etc.
* Style (conservative, modern, professional, techy, grunge, etc). Should appeal to the target audience and be appropriate.
* Other design elements or layout techniques to be implemented (column, rounded corners, centered, white space, etc.)
Now one important thing to keep in mind that compromises will and should be made. Do not be stubborn about having everything you want — you may end up with exactly what you want and a bad looking site.
Keep in mind that the goal of this is not to please yourself with the design but create an effective and good looking site. Web standards and usability should be kept in mind.
If you don't know what you want, or are unsure about what would be good, don't guess. Talk to your designer.
My suggestion to clients is to find a good designer, with experience and expertise, and then rely on them to make good design choices and help you with decisions.
Designers and developers should take time to talk to their clients about these issues and convince them that by cooperating with each other they can make a better looking and more effective product.
Good luck and good hunting! - therage96, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14One of the hardest things for me to learn when I first starting designing was that what I thought was beautiful wasn't always beautiful to everyone else. From reading the article, it seems as though this guy simply thought his first design was so incredible that how could they not like it. Of course when they wanted changes to his "masterpiece," this is when he shows his inexperience as a designer.
A good designer like him slowly lets a client degrade the site, a great designer takes what the client gives them, and again makes something beautiful out of it.
Get over your ego and that'll be a good start. - Discosis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13theone3: Glad you posted it, thats exactly what was running through my mind as I was reading it. What stuck out in my mind was the fact that the initial desgin seemed to have been arrived at *without* consulting the client, and when it turned out that it wasn't what the client wanted, the hissy-fit's been thrown.
- film42, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14If they want a piece of crap design, then let them have it. Take the money and vanish. Oh ya, DONT PUT A LINK BACK ON THEIR SITE!!!
- theone3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10My thoughts exactly. Highly unprofessional. How might future clients feel about the possiblity of having their relationships posted on a blog. Especially considering that there is no editorial intervention, no 'other side to the story', this is not only alienating future customers, but it's begging to turn into a lawsuit.
Also, given that the client wanted to be involved in the process, the designer should have taken on a 'refining' role, rather than slowly degrading the quality of the site. I'm certain that both the client and the designer could have created a better site if there had been better communication, and a better attitude. After all, don't forget who's paying, and who can add to the bill! - Odwalla, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Wow, a 16 year old who thinks he knows everything but is shown to not know much of anything.
That building isn't in any way, shape, or form, "victorian". If you can't be bothered to study architechture at least pick up a book on it. There's no porch, no gingerbread millwork, no turrets, etc... Mistake number one, an incorrect assumption about the architectural style that drove his "design" the wrong way.
Boo hoo, your meticulously chosen brown color scheme. Big damn deal. He tries to claim that brown is "victorian" when victorian architecture is normally painted bright saturated colors with either white or creme trim. Mistake number two, becoming attached to your own design even when that design choice is demonstrably incorrect.
Mistake number three is arguably the biggest one of the bunch,...he went off and made a design first and then talked to the clients! Talk to the clients first, since they are the *paying customers* and then base your design around their ideas. In the end he tried to wedge their desires onto his design framework. If he had talked to them first he might have had a better chance of making a design that flowed with the customer's thoughts and ideas.
And lastly, *BIG MISTAKE* posting the website about this. The author is not a design expert. He doesn't have a degree in fine arts, industrial design, etc.. He is in no position to write about this as if he is an authority on the subject and the customers were wrong.
In short this is nothing but a petulant teenagers wrant against being told he was wrong. In the end, though, his numerous assumptions and mistakes show that he had ample opportunity to do the job correctly from the start, but his pigheadedness prevented him from seeing that. - SuperSloth, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Yeah, design is soooo overrated:
http://www.seaviewinncarmel.com/ - Darrelc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Yeh, I think the design of a site is important, Im more inclined to read the content if it has a good clear design, I prefer the 3'rd design over the rest.
Take this site for a prime example. Jesus christ, my eyes.
http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/5595/worstsiteever4jl.png - nathanchase, on 05/06/2009, -0/+6I run into a similar situation every day at my job - the boss requies that something be yellow on every website i design, therefore it is my job to find a way to make that yellow item work into the design, regardless of the color scheme. It's frustrating, but he's the boss. And the boss pays. The boss gets what he wants. And as others above have stated - if you're a good designer, you can turn the worst suggestions into something useable and attractive.
Often the job title of most web designers should be "turd polisher". - sert, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I dont like flashy graphics, I like a beautiful, clean and slick design. Pretty much exactly like the first version of the site he made.
- thomasthecat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I second what Sert said. The final design has practically no heirarchy or sense of organization. The italic type is horrible to read at any length, and the wallpaper pattern in the background gets much more attention from my eye than the actual content area.
It is about organizing information, and I think at least one of the first two or three versions did that much better, fancy photoshop tricks not withstanding. - mediamanbkk, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10The customer is always right!
- lightningrod220, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Not so much of the "professional" part, however....
- theone3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@cunning
I'd rather have lent. You could sell that to the Vatican for a pretty penny. Lint would be another issue. :P - beejay54, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4ha ha, reminds me of when I was a teen designer and called myself 'professional'. Word of advice to aspiring young designers: just becuase you feel that you can whip up an interface better than some of the local 'professionals' does not make you a professional. I learned this later from years of design school. There are a lot of kids out there producing good interfaces with no real idea why the interface works and they constantly apply the same styles and trends to their projects and hit walls with clients who want design input. Start small, but get some training, then you can call yourself a professional designer and know what makes you professional.
- toddbu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I see slimc9999 getting dugg down, but can anyone then explain the popularity of Craiglist or drudgereport.com? I think it's more a matter of the purpose of a site than just a blanket statement either way. If I'm dealing with a bank then I demand a professional looking site. But the example of news is a good one. I get a lot of news from a lot of very ugly sites that are at least 50% ads that are laid out in very ugly fashion. So I think you should first decide if your audience cares about design, and then build the site. Just don't assume that because you value feature (insert favorite feature here) that everyone else does.
- cunningprose, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Have we forgotten, "The customer is always right." I agree completely with Benc and Theone3. As a designer you can only graciously give your input, back it up with stats (if you know them) and hope to influence the client for the better. However, in the end, it is the client's dime. Do take their money and don't put that work in your portfolio. If you do not furnish THEIR end result, they will not refer you for new business or work with you on more ventures.
I would rather complete a bunch of ugly sites increasing my bank account balance than a handful of beautiful sites in my portfolio and lent in my wallet. - inactive, on 11/04/2008, -0/+4http://www.sea-view-inn.com/photos.php
View that on a Mac and laugh. (Safari / Firefox)
Edit: I see therage just edited his post hehe. Same applies to Windows Firefox? - brandizzle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm sure he probably could have done alot better with those requirements, but he was just too busy being a little bitch because they didn't like his first design.
Even if he had just outlined the black text over the rose (it would have taken two seconds and it's pretty hard at this point to make anything that looks worse) it would have been legible.
Kind of reminds me of the Slashdot competition that's going on for their new design...despite all the requirements that have "***** site" written all over them a few good designs have come out of it.
Either way...he gets paid, hopefully any future clients will realize they're working with an ass, and the client now gets the added publicity. - therage96, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3http://aprilzero.com/lib/articles/svi/
Until he removes them, all the mockups are here, and the "site" sub-directory is the final design. - weiran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3If he was a professional designer worth his salt, he could've explained to his clients about the usability and visual problems with their recommendations to reach a compromise. For example you should only use italic fonts for emphasis, not to stylise as it makes it quite unreadable.
- dwcharn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The client is the boss, but I don't believe they are always right. That is why they hire a good designer. Now this doesn't mean we should take it upon ourselves to create a design without client input. Strong communication is very important. Know your client. Know the site's users. If the client has feedback we don't take that feedback and make the change, we take the feedback and look at what it means to the overall goal of the project. If you, as a designer, don't believe it is the best idea, you need to go to the client and not only explain to them your thoughts but also give them suggestions based on their new direction. This is why they are paying a designer.
I also don't agree that design is becoming less important (I have heard this many places) as many people are pointing out how MySpace and craigslist don't have strong designs and they are doing great. This argument is foolish. Just because a site has a good overall function that fills the need of a user, it doesn't mean that design or usability are less important. Design, usability, and functionality are all very important and have to be balanced properly, not more or less done away with. This is why clothing stores spend a lot of money on the design of their actual store. If they are great clothes people are still going to come in and buy them but add to the design of the store itself and you will bring in even more.
I should also note that all the "money is more important than design" is in the developers eyes. I need money to live but I need to look at my long term goals and those goals are to develop nice designs. If you want to only work on projects that will allow you to be a good designer then get out there and find them because there are more then enough of them.
Finally I will say the blog has interesting information but - yeahhhhhhh... A bit unprofessional. You seem to be a great designer for only 16 though. Keep up the good work. - DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You guys think all that is bad. I've got the worst one yet.
http://www.arngren.no Yeah, it's norwegian. Still the worst design ever made, EVER! - paolonorte, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Well, certainly this has been an education for the lad.
- inactive, on 11/04/2008, -1/+4http://www.sea-view-inn.com/proms.php
What's that down the bottom? Commented out Javascript?
I think this guy should spend as much time on his clients sites as he does on his own before writing such articles as this.
What was that about..
"I will first create a design mockup that appeals to you, and then code it using the high quality code found in every Dragon Labs website."
Don't mean to ridicule the guy but clearly should think twice before posting that to a site that gets a lot of traffic. - sethj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2One of my most frustrating sites wasn't one I made - it was for my employer. I was too busy doing my job so it was outsourced to somewhere else. They came up with a good looking mock-up so we started discussing how to roll the original (front page) website into the new one.
Now, I'm all for doing things once so going with a database driven website or something would have been the best in my book (since I was the one responsible for updates and design changes after we received the final version). My employer wasn't so technical and didn't see the need for such things.
After making a few suggestions I was left out of the rest of the process...
What I ended up getting was about 400 static HTML pages with a 3+ level CSS/JS rollover menu and a :45 flash intro page! (which was my biggest complaint - no skip intro button - no cookies either)
On top of that we had updates and new content that needed to go on ASAP. Luckily ASP was there and I started converting each page I updated to an ASP version with the common elements (header, menu, news bar etc) as includes. Eventually I made it through although it was way more hassle than it was worth.
I ended up leaving the position and moving to another industry. I check back every now and then and get a laugh. Most of the updates are only done on the first page (it seems they kept the HTML version) but nothing past the first level is updated. Go figure.
I'm not sure what my point was (damn ADD). Maybe it was to bitch about non-tech people making static websites that only function to look nice. This to me is a bigger problem than ugly design. I'm sure others have horror stories as well.
Meh. - deadzebra, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.aprilzero.com.nyud.net:8080/?blog/comments/leaving_design_choices_to_designers/?coral-no-redirect for now.. until it updates with the newly removed content. Great reply at the bottom.
- inactive, on 11/04/2008, -0/+2tehrage96, I agree with you there.
That's generally my gripe with kids who enter the industry too early, generally speaking, they think that they are better than everyone else because they manage to achieve what others don't until later in their life.
It'd be a good article if no references were made to any specific client and focus was on a more general nature, not "they didn't like my design, therefore they have no idea what they're talking about".
The same passion for creating a theme like the first image is lost when you have that mentality, and from there on in you try and make a sub-par design because you think you can sway the client back to the original design. Bad way to do it, and very messy approach. - jarvis400, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, it breaks out on a Mac.
The copy isn't that great either. I'm often amazed of the bad writing I have to work with.
"......Also enjoy our large pool/deck area with additional sun decks on each level of the Hotel Your can also enjoy sitting out on the sundecks every Wednesday evening and have an excellent view of the fireworks being presented on the boardwalk, or just sitting out under the front porch awning with the morning newspaper..."
I'm not a native english speaker, but that sounds pretty awful. - merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"explain the popularity of Craiglist or drudgereport.com"
They're an exception to the rule.
If I see a site that looks like it was put up in 1994, I'm leaving, unless they're the only page on the net that has what I need. That's really what it comes down to -- if two sites have the same content, the better looking, and easier to use one will win. - DirtyWorker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2dfunked, I guess they think they will be put in higher regards if they are younger or something.
- pips, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Honestly the final design isn't that awful. The first mock up was nice but didn't really have the feel of a "Family Hotel"; it feels like a blog. The final design isn't great, sure, but it does look kind of homey and owner-made, which in this case isn't a bad thing. It's also not as trendy looking, and I don't think it will look dated quite as fast. It is most certainly not one of the ugliest sites on the web, and hey, the owner got a website that they like a lot and that all but the most picky will tolerate.
- SuperSloth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Frankly, his three best complaints are: 1) Aliased logo; 2) Overuse of italics; 3) Black text over rose.
Of those, he could have: 1) corrected the logo by editing it himself to look right; 2) shown the client the specific areas where the italics were making their site difficult to read and suggested limiting italics to just the first paragraph; and 3) outlined the text with a lighter color, making it stand out from the rose.
Yes the site has design problems. Two of them are exactly his fault. - Eddible, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I don't think I could even try and make a site look that bad. How do you go about doing that?!
- whalesalad, on 10/12/2007, -8/+10Absolutley.
- knightblade2oo4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.duggmirror.com/design/leaving_design_choices_to_designers
it's static and it wont disappear - Klarth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The 404 I'm getting speaks otherwise!
- Kamino, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Agreed. If I want to order a brown dinnertable with yellow stripes I don't want some Ikea salesman to tell me it's ugly. There is afterall no accounting for taste.
This youngman certainly needs to work on his PR skills. - Billistic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If that's what the client wants, that's what the client gets. That's how businesses like this work. They are paying you, so you need to make sure they are happy. Your happiness doesn't really matter
Except people will think this guy can't design for *****. - tobsterius, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I would assume that designers who designed bad sites wouldn't even bother putting it in their portfolio... I wouldn't.
Going on the net and blasting the choices that the client had made for *THEIR* site, is totally unprofessional. - Klarth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hah! He's removed his article - Must've seen the comments here and panicked! Anyone got a mirror or a copy of it before it was taken down?
"My only aim was really just to show how client/designer relations should be improved"? ROFL - therage96, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.sea-view-inn.com/
Thats the address of the final site by the way. The photo and specials pages are mis-aligned in Firefox. - Klowner, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1no kidding, look at their braindead post on his site.. I feel sorry for the kid.
"IF(?) YOU ARE TRUELY SINCERE, CONCERNING YOUR APOLOGIZE, THEN TAKE OFF YOUR INMATURE, LACK OF BUSINESS EXPERIENCE COMMENTS, TODAY IF NOT SOONER.....
OWNERS OF SEA VIEW INN
SEA VIEW ENTERPRISES, INC. "
Sounds like the Sea View Inn people can't differentiate between "apoligies" and "apologize".. Seems as though they're the ones that are "truely" "inmature".
And holy crap, how many 's can you put in an html file?!
http://www.seaviewinncarmel.com/ - Crazy_8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Look at the source...
"meta name="generator" content="Created Using Yahoo! PageBuilder 2.61.88""
In otherwords....
http://geocities.yahoo.com/v/pb.html
Even most of the pictures/thumbnails are not the right size, they are just resizing them in the HTML. So all of them look blocky. - dhughes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1 I wonder if Anand Sharma can see the irony in all this.
-
Show 51 - 88 of 88 discussions
The Digg Toolbar for Firefox lets you Digg, submit content, and keep track of Digg even when you're not on the Digg site. Download the official 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is 