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157 Comments
- jiminoc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+126that is why I stopped dealing with individuals. I found their expectations to be insane. I want to pay next to nothing, have you available 24 hours a day, and do free updates everytime I email you a change. Ohh yea I'll probably change my mind 10 times on what I want and I don't want you to charge me for that.
- mike_p, on 10/12/2007, -1/+67You nailed just about everything I hate about customers that think this is an easy business. I can't tell you how many times they email me wanting me to change something small (which isn't a HUGE problem the first couple of times) only to find out that there is this constant stream of messages from the same person thinking my initial fee comes with a year of service and tech support. Word of advice: never give out your personal phone number. Shame on me for being naive.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+49Just like the old engineer joke:
'There was an engineer who had an exceptional gift for fixing all things mechanical. After serving his company loyally for over 30 years, he happily retired. Several years later the company contacted him regarding a seemingly impossible problem they were having with one of their multi-million dollar machines.
They had tried everything and everyone else to get the machine to work but to no avail. In desperation, they called on the retired engineer who has solved so many of their problems in the past.
The engineer reluctantly took the challenge. He spent a day studying the huge machine. At the end of the day, he marked a small "x" in chalk on a particular component of the machine and stated, "This is where your problem is". The part was replaced and the machine worked perfectly again. The company received a bill for $50,000 from the engineer for this service. They demanded an itemized accounting of his charges.
The engineer responded briefly:
* One chalk mark $1
* Knowing where to put it $49,999'
Web designers, like engineers, are paid for their intangible expertise on the subject, something hard for non-experts to gauge or comprehend. - ginty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+41This isn't a web design thing only – its all design.
People are the same way about print design. "You want HOW MUCH for a business card? I've got publisher, I'll just do it myself."
Have fun buddy. - Phrag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+41Welcome to the wonderful world of graphic design. This is why I charge by the hour and not by project/content. If they want a change, they have to pay for the time. They want to call me at 2am to add a graphic, they really have to pay for the time. People tend to be less picky and just take my advice when making a decision costs them a buck per minute.
As for the whole, "my friend/relative/neighbor can do it for $50." thing, I usually tell people that doing business on the net is alot like doing it in the real world. Some hack can build you a store for a few grand but, you don't nessecary want to be doing business from it when it comes crashing down because they didn't follow the proper safety precautions. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+37Just pay for it you bunch of cheap asses.
- xfTwitch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27sorry to hear that you've gotten such crappy designers to work for you. Don't paint us all with the same brush though....
- MrUnderbridge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27"[bluephoenix] It's always been my experience that whenever I make them any sort of CMS system (whether to change text, images, etc etc), they never use it! It's so frustrating, they call me asking to update this page or that page, when they have every single tool necessary to do it, without ANY HTML or computer knowledge, other than how to point and click."
OK, so use that handy system yourself and charge them full rates. Everybody wins! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+28This is why I have a deep seated hatred for Frontpage and Dreamweaver's design view modes- it's given terrible designers AND programmers a false job as a 'web designer' where they can crank out absolute ***** for $50-100, creating this expectation that that is the value of any website.
"Yes sir I know me some HTML and Javacrept and DHTML! $150"
*googles code tutorial examples
^^Typical douche that marrs the pricing structures of real businesses.
The average person has no idea the depth and complexity of web applications running business logic on the backend, complimented with a killer frontend matching the face of the business or company.
Price is the cliff on which either potential clients will say go and jump off, or they will get scared and run out. The ones that stay are worth keeping and know the value of what they are getting; because we produce results like any good web firm should do. You must think of a website as an ROI, not just some eye candy- its the new world way to mass market yourself and business, and draw in new leads and clients. If that is worth $5-35k to you, you will pay. Those who won't simply are not ready to have a real website and probably should pay $50 for some dickass cheap *****, because that is exactly what they will receive (and in their ignorance, know not the difference between the two). - jexdawg, on 10/12/2007, -4/+23Wow, I didn't know everyone on digg was an expert blog designer. Neat.
... - bluephoenix, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20That's why you design them a dumbed down CMS. That way they can make the small changes themselves but you still charge to maintain the database. Plus they feel smart when they're "updating" their own site.
- merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21That's 40-80 man hours, at (low-end) typical industry wages. If it's even 20 hours of work for the guy, then it's a fair price.
- thewebguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16it doesn't destroy the pricing that much.
if a client tells me that they can get a better price somewhere else, and the price is insanely low, i tell them to go with their other option instead.
once they've had their $300 website built and it looks awful and functions even worse, they will come back and pay what they should have in the first place if they even care. - geuisteses, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15As a designer, a find this article completely agreeable. Individuals have generally have no idea of the work that goes into making a site look and act right across multiple platforms. I was lucky and recently picked up a client(brother and sister team) who explained very exactly and professionally what they wanted, and when I quoted $2000 for the project they didn't hesitate. They knew exactly what they wanted, and had reasonable expectations for the cost. So far they've been one of my most enjoyable customers to date.
- vvvv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Web designers should give away their designs for free, then make money by touring and selling t-shirts.
Oh wait, that's what musicians should do, never mind. - UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12It sounds like you're dealing with amatuers (sorry for your misfortune). Professional designers are far from lazy and if they are lazy they shouldn't call themselves professional.
- gameguy43, on 10/12/2007, -17/+30it's terrible. especially as a 16 year old consultant. nobody wants to trust that you know what youre doing. and forget about ftp access to their server. no crazy kid's getting access to my server. even if that's his job.
- UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13If you are good you will find people who value your talents. The right clients don't think twice about approving a $5,000-$10,000 for a site.
- drgori, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11It's been years since I worked as a graphic designer, and your comment still made me a little ill to my stomach. The days of Publisher and clients bringing in "camera-ready" artwork printed up on their color bubblejets. Bad times.
- LogicBomB, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12That's a priceless joke.
- jeremiah, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14Put this up on the whiteboard and have the clients pick 2.
Cheap | Correct | Fast
just 2. - Zedizdead, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12They probably quoted you that because you are annoying and they didn't want anything to do with you. So they quote some ridicules number that they KNOW you would not pay.
- gamesector, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14He's a ***** designer.
- musters, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11If you don't want to pay, do it yourself... and then call me up when you are ready to pay.
- dogshaft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9He's talking about skinning blog software. I'm not sure if it's any different but where I work, they charge at least twice that much for skinning something like dotnetnuke, and $1500 would be the price of a standard static 5 page site.
- PabloIV, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I've done that Zed, works like a charm. Most of the time you can smell terrible clients a mile away. Overcharge them like 3 times your normal fees and they'll run for the hills. If they decide to pay well at least you're getting paid 3 times your usual fee.
- noodlez, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10basic design doesn't mean the design is basic.
he just means ONLY the design, not the backend development of the CMS. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Yes, some do come back (recently had that happen), but most do not. The ones who do end up leaving for the cheaper price usually end up giving up on having a website altogether.
- Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8When I design you a webpage, I'm not overcharging you... I kinda need that money to, well, eat and pay bills.
- aluminumpork, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9[bluephoenix] It's always been my experience that whenever I make them any sort of CMS system (whether to change text, images, etc etc), they never use it! It's so frustrating, they call me asking to update this page or that page, when they have every single tool necessary to do it, without ANY HTML or computer knowledge, other than how to point and click.
Ugh. - darkstar949, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8(Off-topic) Apparently, that also applies to women:
Pick Two - Smart, Sane, Sexy - robdavy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Sometimes I find that the situation is reversed though...
I have a client at the moment (a Brewery) who went to a downtown web design company for their new site. $5500 later, and they have a website. The whole site is Flash (which seems to be the only thing the company can do), has background music, takes 10 mins to load on dial-up (no joke). It's a very slick site, very 'flashy' (no pun), but totally in-practical.
a) it takes 10 mins to download on dial-up (not acceptable in my eyes)
b) it has un-stopable background music
c) the content is all in flash "frames" so not very easy to navigate
d) it's Flash, and no alternative is given
e) they want $1200 for *any* update. They sell beer, so they need to be able to update the list of locations selling the beer.
All this for $5500, and they even supplied most of the images and design elements (existing branding)
As soon as it was finished, they knew it was a wrong decision. The design company wouldn't even talk to them unless they were paying them to do an update.
They approached me, I told them (nicely) how bad the site was from a practicality point of view and I'm now re-designing the site in HTML/CSS for $1500 (what it should have cost in the first place I feel). This time round, it'll actually have a CMS, as it should have had to start with - UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"That's what you get for going the cheap route. (Yes, 1-3K is CHEAP for ANY site)"
That is true. Considering the design of a one page ad for a magazine, for instance, will go for $1000 - $2,000+ puts things in perspective. A web site is more than one page and the techinical considerations go at least as deep a color/paper/ink/printing does for the print side. - CurtGuy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7That's why you write out a contract with stipulates of how much you will charge for further changes and how many changes they get after the design completion. I don't do web design really but work in print design and the same things come up, people wont to pay Kinko's wages for a professionally done work most of the time. If they don't want to pay the money your worth then they probably wont treat you for what you are worth either.
- geuisteses, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I'd like to follow up on my previous comment. I agree with the content of the guy's article. However, I think that as a designer he is personally full of *****. Look at his portfolio he links to at the bottom. The designs are all basic and uninspiring, and several are just copies/adaptations of each other.
So he is apparently charging people lots of $$$ for copies of other design's he did for different clients. - joshfraz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I agreed with his prices until I checked out his work.
- FishPoisonCon, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12"At this time, blog designs start at $1500"
wait a second... people actually pay someone to design their BLOG??? i have a personal site (photos/music/blablabla) that i've, more or less, coded by hand (and yeah, it's probably really bad), so i haven't really looked into anything "blog" related - but, they all pretty much look the same to me, so i always figured they were just templates... you're telling me people actually pay someone else to modify a template for them? - jdelsman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Wow, that's a great interpretation!
- viruz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"btw I make $200 in like half a second."
So you make 1.4 million an hour
Can I have $100K ? - jdelsman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7This actually happened to me a couple of weeks ago. She tried to do it herself, then hired a "cheap" designer, who completely wasted her money. Then she came running back to me and I created something beautiful for her. She'll never make that mistake again.
Money buys you quality. That's all there is to it. - vince1731, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6And this is why most web freelancers don't make any contracts to cover their asses.
Set an initial cost with half up-front once the design has been approved and the rest once the product's delivered. Never EVER make a deal where you'll be payed at the end - even if your site is primetime award worthy, I can guarantee that your client will never be fully happy with what you give them and they won't pay your full price.
Set an hourly pay for any other additonal stuff that the client wants implemented. This makes sure that you won't get asked to make modifications on a daily basis. Get them to pay you no longer than 5 business days after your done with what they asked. If they don't pay up, get the hell out (write it in the contract.)
Don't give anything to the client (source code, source files, etc) until the project is done and you're payed - it's your "property." This way you won't get screwed over half-way, with them pulling out and leaving you without money.
If the client can't accept your terms on the contract, then it just isn't worth it. Chances are, you'll have problems with them later and end up getting screwed over in some respect. - armbar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"You simply dont have to be as smart to make a nice site anymore."
Sorry, but that's just totally wrong. Anyone can use a tool, not everyone uses the tool to produce something good. - xfTwitch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6please change the title of that article to 'how much should a blog design cost'
It's my experienct that a blog and a true, actual, web site are two different things.
btw, for those thinking that's a ripoff, it may be. But it's still 30 hours of work at $50/hour.
Not too bad though.
I've charged 10-12 grand for websites in the past, depending on size and complexity, but I'd say my average is in the 3-4k range.
See if you can get someone to design a killer print brochure, and get it printed out for that much. - nsharp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7OK, lets take an example of his designs:
http://www.biziki.com/
I get 143 validation errors
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biziki.com%2F
and the site is broken in IE6 (but hey, who uses IE6 anyway).
So, thats $1800 for that template (after all the rest of the site is wordpress, which is, um, free).
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.kentuckyalliance.org/
83 errors..
Did he validate any of these templates? Or is that an optional extra service? - masona3, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I've been moonlighting as a freelance web and graphic designer for about eight years. I'm lucky in that I've had the opportunity to build a great reputation for myself working with local business owners, government officials, and a few big companies. My current rate is $45 per hour. I never work without or outside of a contract, I always require full payment within fourteen business days of an invoice, and I explicitly state in my contracts that I will not provide continued support without an additional contract.
I've dealt with a wide range of clients during that time and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you should always pass on cheapskates. If you send someone a quote and they hit you with, "My friend's kid will do it for half of what you're asking," then tell them to hire their friend's kid. Clients such as these are always a waste of your time. Sure, you'll end up passing on opportunities to make money. However, in the end, your peace of mind is more important. - Jack000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@brian (imova.com)
I don't normally do this, but as a professional web developer myself I feel compelled to respond. It's ironic to see someone giving advice on professinal design when your own site is not original work.
imova.com is clearly built from the template by snop at oswd.org:http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2448
Please give credit where it is due.
It is also very disconcerting that this appears in many of your portfolio pieces:
--DWLayoutTable--
It would be very regrettable if you charged what you claimed for this type of work. - wild, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Flat rates are stupid. You have to go hourly. Flat rates are killing our industry, especially the fledgling web based side. And $1500 is dirt cheap. My clients can easily spend $2-300,000 on a web site.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Not saying either way, but maybe they want custom blog software?
But yeah, 1500 for modifying a template, (if that's all they're doing) is a bit much. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Lol $200 ain't *****. That is two hours of work for me.
- treyjp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4quoted from jack000 above:
@brian (imova.com)
I don't normally do this, but as a professional web developer myself I feel compelled to respond. It's ironic to see someone giving advice on professinal design when your own site is not original work.
imova.com is clearly built from the template by snop at oswd.org:http://www.oswd.org/design/preview/id/2448
Please give credit where it is due.
It is also very disconcerting that this appears in many of your portfolio pieces:
--DWLayoutTable--
It would be very regrettable if you charged what you claimed for this type of work. -
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