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Graphic Design Hero: Tells off Craigslist

chicago.craigslist.org — This disgruntled designer puts the God's honest truth down for all to read.

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  • YanSan, on 10/12/2007, -18/+52as an artist in a school full of artists, well said, we all feel the same
    • calebb, on 10/25/2007, -25/+709Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.

      But what they’re NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.

      To those who are “seeking artists”, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?

      More than likely, you don’t know any. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting on craigslist to find them.

      And this is not really a surprise.

      In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.

      So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?

      Would you offer a neurosurgeon the “opportunity” to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him “a few bucks” for “materials”. What a deal!)

      Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?

      If you answered “yes” to ANY of the above, you’re obviously insane. If you answered “no”, then kudos to you for living in the real world.

      But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?

      Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.

      A few things you need to know;

      1. It is not a “great opportunity” for an artist to have his work seen on your car/’zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a “great opportunity” for YOU to have their work there.

      2. It is not clever to seek a “student” or “beginner” in an attempt to get work for free. It’s ignorant and insulting. They may be “students”, but that does not mean they don’t deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a “student” once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.

      3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it’s one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their “portfolio”. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It’s not compensation. It’s their right, and it’s a given.

      4. Stop thinking that you’re giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.

      5. Students DO need “experience”. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the “experience” they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother’s house when they were seventeen?

      If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.

      6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to “submit work for consideration”. They may even be posing as some sort of “contest”. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the “contest”, or be “chosen” for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or “spec”, work. It’s risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.

      So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are “spec” gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.

      And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you’re accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
    • AlwaysDuggDown, on 10/12/2007, -345/+67Dude no one is putting a gun to your head, they are just offering you a deal. If you don't like it, don't take it. If you do like it, take it. It's really not that hard.

      In either event, stop whining.
    • AlwaysDuggDown, on 10/12/2007, -322/+49Digging me down is not going to make people want to pay you more. I spoke the truth....people will pay you what you are worth no matter what your profession.
    • jmkiii, on 10/12/2007, -134/+36Who's whining now?
    • atarix64, on 10/12/2007, -5/+54Mirror:
      http://www.gnull.com/sites/1169793861_126868/
    • dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -8/+140"Dude no one is putting a gun to your head, they are just offering you a deal. If you don't like it, don't take it. If you do like it, take it. It's really not that hard.

      In either event, stop whining."

      You're right. And what he's trying to do is form solidarity amongst the design community, something we desperately need. With skills and abilities all over the board, it's become commonplace for businesses to believe they are doing designers "a favor" by giving them pro-bono work. ***** that.

      And that's what he's saying. He's saying that the only way we'll be able to fight back is by having the REAL designers out there not giving away their very legitimate services for free.
    • wonboodoo, on 10/12/2007, -71/+37Anyone who resorts to going to Craigslist for a job is either working in a field with low demand or is struggling to compete in the field they chose. Employers who have cash-flow issues advertise on Craigslist. They can't afford a decent newspaper advertisement or recruitment service or Monster or Dice or Hotjobs. Anyone who thinks a Craigslist jobs poster is going to offer them market rate, artists or otherwise, is delusional.

    • jerrycan, on 10/12/2007, -45/+22This guy should get a clue. Like most artists, he'll make money when he's dead! Just kidding.

      The real message should be to aspiring artists to stop working for free.
    • mlandry, on 10/12/2007, -32/+9Amen
    • willcode4beer, on 10/12/2007, -51/+11what is really funny, is these are usually the same people who hate proprietary software and DRM'd music.
    • franksands, on 10/12/2007, -5/+39@AlwaysDuggDown:

      Do you mean that you will work for free? Do you mean that you will accept being hired by a company and receive nothing because they will show your work?
    • Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -28/+75@calebb:
      In the computer industry, there are support personnel and there are developers. Guess which ones often work for free.

      In the automotive industry, there are mechanics and there are engineers. Guess which ones often work for free.

      In the graphic industry, there are production artists, and there are graphic designers/illustrators. Guess which ones often work for free.

      I'll tell you a secret. Half of the people I mentioned above can be considered technicians.

      It's not a matter of how 'good' you are - anyone can beat out a masterpiece, once - it's a matter of how consistent and high quality your work is. A graphic designer, illustrator, etc, gets a good job because they have a portfolio of /consistent quality pieces/ - in which case, one would be a fool to take a no-pay job for the 'experience'.

      As a web developer, I'll often take on free jobs just for the sake of building up my portfolio - because otherwise, I'm not at all inspired to do so. I'm a talented flowing-media and UI designer, and I speak fluent browser quirks, but without that stack of evidence speaking to how well I can pull ***** off, no one will be willing to pay me the big bucks.

      So you can go on your tirade about how so many craigslist postings don't constitute a valid excuse for working for free, and how it's exploiting the rare and beautiful illustrator. Of course they aren't valid - if you've already done all those jobs and have the portfolio to back it up. If you don't, and you're not one to just create commercial art for the hell of it, you might want one of those jobs.

      As for exploiting those they can (ie: the students), sorry, but that's how things work in a free market; you're expected to know what you're worth. Not everyone does, of course, but it's in your best interests to find out. You're incentivized towards disallowing people to exploit you.
    • intense321, on 10/12/2007, -8/+190I just wanted to comment on the "Neurosurgeon" example. As a physician, I can tell you that many neurosurgeons do MANY uncompensated cases. It's just part of life. Just because someone can't pay you doesn't mean they don't deserve medical care. We work on LOTS of people who never pay us a dime. It's a fact of life. Maybe if everybody out there was willing to volunteer a certain percentage of their work hours to charity, this world would be a better place.

      This will probably get dugg down, but oh well..
    • vhold, on 10/12/2007, -15/+17He lost me by not citing sources on those statistics. His whole argument hinges on it.

      It also sounds like a chicken and egg problem. Assuming they are real stats, "professional illustrators" are already getting paid and aren't really part of his rant. There are obviously more artists then there are people get paid to be artists. How many more is the question. It totally throws off his rarity argument.
    • franksands, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12at willcode4beer:

      I am completely against DRM yes. There is a BIG difference between being against DRM and wanting music to be free, as in beer. It is stupid and naive to think that the artists will give music for free. Heck, that's the whole point of the rant, but he complaining about design and not music. I have no problem what so ever paying for the music I listen, as long as:
      a)It's a reasonable price
      b)I can hear it on the device of my choosing.
    • dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9"a)It's a reasonable price
      b)I can hear it on the device of my choosing."

      c) And I know it's the artist being compensated, and not the record company. Until then, I'll download the music, and instead, go to live shows (where the Record Company's hand doesn't reach).
    • jmkiii, on 10/12/2007, -18/+5Wow, I got dugg down for digging down Alwaysduggdown! How strange is that?
    • JoeDonH, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17@ wonboodoo: I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that statement. I felt like that at one point sort of, but a little less than a year ago I found myself unemployed after getting sacked in a corporate shutdown and losing my job of 5 years. I went through all of the "normal" channels - Newspaper ads, Monster.com, CareerBuilder.com, placement agencies, etc.... I work in what would be considered a creative field, and these channels just do not have the supply of jobs to suit the demands of people in certain fields.

      One day I was browsing Craigslist and came across an ad for what would end up being the job I am in right now. Trust me, my company does not have any cash flow issues, and I am in a great job.

      While your statement might be true of some postings on Craigslist, I think that Craigslist is still an invaluable source for many, many things - including job postings. Sure, there are going to be scammers and bad companies out there, but they are just as likely to show up in "normal" channels as well. A couple of bucks on a newspaper classified is going to get them a lot more exposure than a free posting on craigslist, and in my eyes the difference is negligible.
    • Niffer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15@intense321

      You are absolutely right about the comparrison. It's very noble of a neurosurgeon to offer their services for free to those who cannot afford it and are desperately in need. It is, however, not noble of an artist to offer their work for free for a corporation to make money off of. They don't NEED the artwork, and if they don't want to pay for it, then tough *****.

      Overall, just a bad analogy.
    • diggger, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5As much as I feel for this guy and agree with him about the value of a good designer, he needs to take a class on basic economics. High demand job + few people able to do it (low supply) = high paying job. If there were millions of Neurosurgeons that nobody needed, do you think they would be getting paid well?
    • modsuperstar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6The part that bothers me about this kind of stuff is the general disrespect the profession of designer receives from people. As the article points out, people in other professions wouldn't go for these kinds of arrangements, yet they are always offered to creative types because of the general ignorance of the the skills required to render a proper design project. The reason why people have this perception is that graphic design is something really anyone can do with some software and a computer. The difference is that it takes talent to make a proper design come together. The concept is like saying because you have a glove, bat and a ball you're now a baseball player. This obviously isn't the case.
    • alexiscaptive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5This kind of situations are specially common here in Brazil.
      Big Branding groups like FUTURE BRAND are experts at doing this kind of crap business.
      They pay ***** to students and expect them fell proud of being working in one of the "greatest" branding groups in the world...

      Designers needs respect and this kind business people need to die stabbed with stilettos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
      (we got hard skills with stilettos doing that mock ups!!!)
    • energizerrabbit, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1This is a good article... But a little too angry. For a PROFESSIONAL, I fully agree. But for someone who is still an AMATEUR, then working for free, or trade, is alright, depending on the person. As for someone requesting for free PROFESSIONAL work, on craigslist, they are clearly unaware. In a perfect world all work would go for pay, but unfortionally people will not accept work for free, when there is no example of skill.

      So for all you portfolio builders, please, go ahead and work for free/trade if you would like.

      But for all you professionals, please never work for free.
    • dvddesign, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4McDLT, while I can sympathize with your angle and I agree with what you're saying in regards to learning real-world experience...

      Many people go through internships prior to getting out of college and they obtain this experience through a classroom setting of an internship. I did. I did about 6 months at NBC in a major market and stuck around long enough afterwards to have a nice part time job when I got out of school. After I completed school, I expected to be taken seriously. And I wasn't.

      There's far too often where you have to fight for your job in the television industry because you haven't "been around" long enough to prove yourself. Most production jobs are very clique-y and you won't get in unless you can find the right people who will take you and your work seriously. When you hit that clique you fit with, that's where you get your real-world experience, and that's where you find out where your career is going to take you. Many freelance gigs I got into over the next few years, I'd face a lot of scoffing or "nah, I don't think we could do that" in direction, post production, or in releasing. But you know what? I'd do those things anyway, and no one would complain when it wound up costing less, looking better, or garnering acclaim. I also never got the credit I deserved for that effort either. So I quit and moved away to look for greener pastures and respect in my field.

      I worked for my previous employer for 2 years building up a portfolio to move from IT and into Marketing with a different company. It's a far stretch to take Video Engineering and IT skills over to Marketing, and I probably wouldn't have done it if not for my previous employer. I had the time, effort, skills, and help to refine my levels and skills up enough to where my work is taken as seriously as it should.

      I can honestly tell you, that one of the best things you can do for your own ego, is surround yourself with people who are amazed with your skills and ability. Not necessarily "stupid" people or someone you decieved to get you where you are, but people who aren't normally exposed to your kind of work are AMAZED at the end result even if you have very little real talent.

      My current company, for example, was running black and white ads 2 years ago. That'd be 2005. Black and white ads. We don't sell penis pills or sewing kits either in the back of good housekeeping, but expensive high end enviromental equipment. Without sounding arrogant or snobby about it, there's not many other companies in the magazines I run in that put as much effort in ad design as I do. There are a few, but not many. And of those, I doubt few of them have their talent working for them in-house. Certainly consider your skill set and your market you want to work in when looking for work. I may not personally own up to what my company sells all the time, but I know they love what I do. When I've taken my work up a notch or two, my career can progress accordingly.
    • DreKor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I want to admit that I am not an artist. I graduated as a computer engineer.

      The term "starving artist" wasn't coined on some emo kid's MySpace or LJ. The idea that artists are rarely compensated well for their efforts has been around for a long time. In fact, I think it would be wrong if all artists were forced into a life of poverty because nobody appreciated the value of what they do. Thankfully, this is not the case. Artists of all stripes make a living the same as everyone else; by working for money.

      Being an artist is the same as working in any other profession. Maybe an artist doesn't have a typical 8.5"x11" resume but, they have a portfolio (and usually a resume too, assuming they've done any professional work). As an engineer going through school, there were countless opportunities for internships and co-ops. Amazingly, these positions were unpaid! Since the students and recent graduates who took these non-paying jobs had no experience to prove to potential employers that they were worth the cubicle they sat in, they instead worked for free (or near free) in hopes of building up a work history.

      So, it's not the artists that are being picked on, it's people with no experience who are being tested. Once you start to prove yourself, you can start demanding compensation for your time and efforts. Until then, you are a beautiful soul with no portfolio and no work experience.
    • jerickson, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5I find his argument to be misplaced and illogical. It is not the fault of the employer that artists CHOOSE to work for free. While I agree that artists should be paid equal to their services given, I don't think it is fair to blame employers for not paying somebody above what they are willing to accept. It seems to me this guy is angry that he can't get a job with his current skillset and is trying to blame the entire problem on "the man" because it's easy to do that.
    • saranagati, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5This guy is way off base. Being an artist isn't like every other profession at all. Anyone can pick up a crayon and call themselves an artist (many 3 year olds do) and technically they are artist, just not good ones. It's not like being a surgeon or a mechanic or working in the IT field, you actually have to have technical knowledge to be able to do any of these things. I'd say the only thing that makes you a professional artist is having people come to you asking for some work otherwise, you're just an artist looking for work (and if you're looking on craigslist, you probably don't have people coming to you for work). One other thing is there's a reason why there are so few professional artists, there's only so much demand. You know that saying 'be great at what you do or find a job that no one else wants to do' (ok i think i changed it around a little), well that artist job... EVERYONE wants to be one. It's like wanting to be an astronaut/rock star/athlete, everyone wants to be one when they're a kid then they grow up and realize that its really hard to become a professional at it because there's so little demand.

      /rant
    • WileEPeyote, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Artists (Musicians, Painters, Sketchers, Actors, etc.) have a long tradition of doing "free" work for recognition. Even large corporations will do work for free (charity, public relations) for free to gain recognition. The jobs listed in the Craigs List tirade also have opportunities to work for free or very limited pay in exchange for training and/or recognition.

      This "Artist" acts like this is some new phenomenon brought on by the internet and sites like Craig's list. I know many Artists (of various types) and consider myself to be one as well and I can't think of a single one of them who hasn't done free work just for exposure or experience.

      Maybe digital artists are more elite...
    • AlwaysDuggDown, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@franksands

      You said "Do you mean that you will work for free? Do you mean that you will accept being hired by a company and receive nothing because they will show your work?"

      I would if it was to my benefit. I would not if it was not to my benefit. That's what I meant by "no one has a gun to your head, they are just offering you a deal". Just watch American Idol---they get millions of "artists" willing to STOP their lives for zero pay, just so that Idol can "show their work" and hopefully it will lead to something. It's to their benefit to accept that deal, so they do. It's not to the benefit of someone that is already getting paid for their art (say Elton John), so he doesn't accept Idol's "deal".....big whoop, let people choose what they are willing to work for and don't get pissed if the people wanting the work allow them to do so.
    • SilentBobSC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@Fordi -

      As a fellow web designer, I agree with you to a point, but what the article here says is the truth, not only does it screw over the rest of the design community but hurts those who blindly enter it.

      Now, I assume you're freelancing, because I'm employed full-time and if I gave away our services, well I'd be jobless. The problem is that when you perform these services for free, particularly if you're good at what you do, you REALLY screw us all over (I'm speaking of the WebDev community).

      See, the problem comes down the road when they decide to "kick up" their website. You don't know how many times I've had to explain to clients why I'm charging them so much because this student they had do it up in the beginning did it for $50 and a moon-pie. Now, we're stuck with a customer who expects everything and more for NOTHING. Also, what happens when after building this portfolio and having this nice client base that the customer wants updates or maintenance, you're hurting yourself and the rest of us. Kudos for being all Robin-hood about the idea, but I have been doing this (site development) since ~93 and I've had to watch as my pie gets eaten up by every tool with a eMachine and a copy of Frontpage who thinks their Comic-Sans, framed, MIDI music abortion is equal to the cross-browser compliant, well designed, CMS enabled sites I produce.

      Please think of this next time you decide to expand your portfolio again.

      SB
    • flipmeat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yes, neuro- and other surgeons do plenty of pro bono work. That's not what the OP was saying. Doctors don't often have to deal with this kind of crap.

      Imagine hospitals and patients engaging in predatory hiring practices, industrywide, trying to con you into working for free, when you are entitled to fair compensation. After any consultation, you hear 'My nephew can do it cheaper', 'removing my brain cloud will open a lot of doors, you should do it for free', etc... Day after day, you'd get pretty annoyed too.

      Any creative types reading this need to look up the Graphic Artist's Guild. http://www.gag.org/

      Even if you don't join, buy their book, "Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines". It provides a sound basis for setting prices, has sample contract language, and shows how to set project milestones for you and the client. This book should be a gift for every art student you know, and for more than few pros as well.

      When you do get a paying job, beware of demands to sign over-reaching and predatory contracts, and 'work-for-hire' tricks, like putting a nasty contract on the back of the check. Deposit your endorsed check, lose all rights to your work 'in perpetuity, in all future formats, media, and new technologies, in all markets worldwide, throughout the galaxy, forever.' B*stards.
    • GeneralFault, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@willcode4beer:
      Anti DRM != pro theft.
      Anti DRM often == Pro consumer rights
      His rant is about worker rights... not consumer rights. Besides, I just cannot get over the irony of someone with such a OSS name like willcode4beer getting angry about non-DRM media.
    • smhill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@ intense321
      "I just wanted to comment on the "Neurosurgeon" example. As a physician, I can tell you that many neurosurgeons do MANY uncompensated cases. It's just part of life. Just because someone can't pay you doesn't mean they don't deserve medical care. We work on LOTS of people who never pay us a dime. It's a fact of life. Maybe if everybody out there was willing to volunteer a certain percentage of their work hours to charity, this world would be a better place."

      Bad analogy.

      Doing volunteer work or helping those in need is indeed noble and a positive thing. As professional designer/illustrator I certainly do work for free for certain organizations or folks that I support. But that is vastly different than what the rant is talking about. A better analogy would be if you, as a physician were, constantly approached by hospitals/health care facilities to come work for them for free so you say that you worked for them.
    • macmcrae, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1@ intense321 Bwahahahahahaha!
      For a neurosurgeon you sure are a ***** idiot!
      I see why you have to work for free.
      Doctors and lawyers are so altruistic.
      You are MY Hero!
    • mylkhead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As a professional graphic designer and illustrator, I agree with the premise of the article, however, life goes on and there will always be "busters" and "kids designing in their mom's basement." As far as I'm concerned, they are meant for eachother. I design for the music industry, which is already a cutthroat business. So many kids want to design for their favorite bands and with design software easily available, anyone can be a "designer." So there is an oversaturation of eager artists willing to do free work for exposure. But eventually, the artists that work hard will eventually start asking for money. They will graduate onto bigger clients that pay them well.

      Everything works itself out in the end. The busters will either wise up and build a good business relationship with their designer, or go out of business themselves. The kids will either get bored of designing stuff and move on to the next fad, or become a real working graphic designer who gets paid well. This is what happens when there are an overabundance of workers willing to do the same job.
    • Cleanlyness, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm a graphics designer. ^_^
  • loomis, on 10/12/2007, -24/+16Dugg. Too true.
    • appetite, on 10/12/2007, -4/+57The title should be "...Tells off Craigslisters". I thought it was going to be a diatribe against the site itself.
    • quetranza, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27I ***** hate it when Craigslist users flag down posts for no good reason. This post, for instance: perfectly valid and it should still be on the site. Craigslist is a lot less useful than it used to be, because of these people with no life who sit there and flag posts all day. Get a hobby, for Christ's sake.

      /there's your diatribe
    • Eleo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+27Man... Perfectly valid posts disappearing because a large group of people merely dislike them... Where have I seen that before...
    • quetranza, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19At least here you can click "show comment"...
    • ThinkBox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Craigslist is a community of buyers and sellers.


      Digg is made up of the community - If people didn't come here, there would be no digg.

      If I tell off digg, then I'm directing it at the people, not the few people who maintain this site.
    • dezmd, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8The post was rightly flagged and taken down, it was in the MEDIA JOBS section. This is a normal occurance of a mouth flapper using the job posting area to vent frustrations, it should have been done in the actual FORUMS, not in the listing area itself. The tone of the article is self-important ***** and generic knowledge. Additionally, I know several 'graphic designers' who aren't college educated but are more than capable and creative enough to perform 'real jobs', and actually do get a good amount of business from CL. The CL post was a selfish, biased, crap filled rant of little effective substance by someone who obviously doesn't know what website he/she is actually using. CL is certainly filled with a-holes trying to pay next to nothing for normally expensive services. This is a free market at its finest/ugliest, and if someone finds a 16 year old kid with a paypal account willing to make a corporate logo or website package of some sort, and can do it decently, then lucky them. Get over it, I did. Real life, face to face experience is what it takes to make it in business, not just some online presence with email and skype phone contact and self verbally masterbating about it.

      Cheers.
  • knowologist, on 10/12/2007, -21/+24That guy nailed it! Word up.
  • bfaulk04, on 10/12/2007, -8/+17i feel like i should put a permalink to this on my portfolio website right beside my resume.
    definitely needs to be seen by more people. Dugg!
  • GaffleSnipe, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12Right on. I hope every designer on the planet reads this.
  • canewediggit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25Posting flagged down by craigslist users
    (The title on the listings page will be removed in just a few minutes.)


    damn, i was hoping for a good laugh. side note- if i need a web designer but don't know any, where would you folks recommend looking?
  • popstalin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+76Fortunately for everyone, someone actually saved the post on their blog. http://positionrelative.wordpress.com/2007/01/23/craigs-pissed/

    I think a lot of the low-balling designers' need to see this as well.
    • JohnnyHuh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Thanks for catching it and reposting it. He speaks truth!
    • dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I think a lot of the low-balling designers' need to see this as well."

      The only low-balling designers out there aren't worth a god damn, and they'll get weeded out very quickly. Businesses don't have time to mess with designers who suck, and they'll see that soon enough as well.

      I used to low-ball back in my school days. No more. And if I'm ever in a position to tell students what to do, I'll tell them just what this guy told craigslisters.
    • theDose™, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0There are many designers, studios and agencies who work with non-profit orgs all the time (Pro Bono). Doctors aren't the only ones :)
  • dupswapdrop, on 10/12/2007, -0/+36This is the sad state of things lately that someone who is skilled is worth zero, while some talking head that sits in his office all day coming up with ways to rip people off is worth millions? It's time to find the reset button for the whole world!
    • AlwaysDuggDown, on 10/12/2007, -16/+8If there was bigger pay for being an artist, there would be a lot more really good artists. Then someone would have a lower price, and someone else would undercut him, and so on. This is how the world works---supply and demand....not pay for whining about it.
    • KJay, on 10/12/2007, -28/+7I second that. Graphic artists are rare because they arn't that in demand, otherwise there would be more of them. Graphic designers are used sparingly by most businesses, sure there may be a lot more accountants, but they are being used everyday. Everything the author said is true about avoiding scams, but he shouldn't act like he's all that special either.

      I hate it when "artists" act like they have some special talent that most people will never be capable of, they should know better. Pretty much anyone could be a graphic designer if they took the time to learn it.
    • mcherm, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9@KJay: Pretty much anyone could be an accountant if they took the time to learn it. For that matter, pretty much anyone could be a CEO if they took the time to learn it.
    • KJay, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3That was my point, that it's demand that drives the numbers, not the profession.
    • erikf, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"@KJay: Pretty much anyone could be an accountant if they took the time to learn it. For that matter, pretty much anyone could be a CEO if they took the time to learn it."

      BS. Studies have shown that most CEOs of major corporations have developed the social abilities and type A personalities required before they get out of jr high. Also there are other traits such as height, the majority of male CEOs are several inches above average height. You can't make yourself taller. There is at the least a correlation between these factors and CEOs.

      Accounting is a skill that's easy to measure, you can teach it and test ability to make sure the applicant is equal to his peers. That means an accountant can easily display qualified credentials when he wants to be paid as much as the next accountant. Can't do that with artists. Art "talent" is too subjective, no universal standards to hold them up against.

      If you want money become an accountant, if you want to be the exception and make a professional career from your art, more power to you.

    • noots, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4wrong.

      Art is a talent, you can learn to be a decent artist, but being GOOD at art is a gift. Take accountancy, you can learn all there is to know about it, but if your brain is more functional at grasping the numbers then you will be a better accountant than most.

      The fact is no-one will ever see the benefits of a talented accountant compared to a normal one, with Art however, it's all visual.
    • KJay, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4@noots, no being a GREAT artist, and I'm talking history books great, not "I have a full time job" great takes talent. It's shown that natural talent doesn't really mean that much especially in the music biz where people are supposedly "no talent" learn an instrument late in their life and put out good (maybe not great), but good work.

      Oh it's not demand? Tell me why there are more people LEARNED cobol in 2006 than there have been in the past 10 years? It's because cobol programmers are making 6 figures.

      It's useless comments like yours that lower the collective intellegence of digg.
    • ExSlashdotter, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@kjay

      Graphic artists aren't in demand?

      Do this for me: get in your car and drive to the nearest store. On the way, how many storefronts, billboards, logos and advertisements did you see on the way? My guess is a sh!tload. Now go in the store. Look at every single item on every single shelf. Every one of them has artwork on it.

      Marketing **relies** on graphic arts.

      You're delusional.
    • ashura001, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3He speaks the truth. Part of effective marketing is good graphic design. Go look at anything on a store shelf and you'll see for yourself. The more successful brands always have better package design. It's all about visual communication.

      Most people are going to go for the box that has a nice looking logo and a snazzy design to go with it verses a box that just says "Snack Crackers" in Helvetica. Companies know that and are willing to pay big bucks to designers that will get results.
    • noots, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0he also hasn't taken into account, no matter how good "him and his homies" are at programming, if it looks like a piece of *****, the general public will refuse to use it, it's a fact i don't necessarily agree with but that's the way it is.

      i also can't believe you compared design to the music industry, sure they are both considered "art" but they function in vastly different ways, it's almost akin to comparing an IT engineer to a Constructional Engineer.

      and by the way, finishing your comment like that underlines the word "*****"
    • dotMH, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Indeed. Music is pretty much math (Not all of it but a big part). Graphic art has some math as well (phi), but it isn't so obvious and you can't calculate the next thing that would work (like in music you can with notes). Please don't step on art just because you're bitter that your programming can't never compete with it.
      Thanks.
    • WileEPeyote, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2A lot of those company logos and billboards and what not are in no way what I would consider art. It is no longer art when there is a committee of marketers looking it over to make sure that it is using all the correct color tones as some demographic prefers this color or that, and the face of the model(s) is clipped and contorted to conform to the standard ideal of beauty all so they can attract more customers (money). This isn't art, it's marketing which is just a hop skip and a jump from mind control.
  • PirateChaOS, on 10/12/2007, -88/+4I love the craigslist layout.. .Its simple, fast, and efficient.

    alteast for what I use it for... Screw the eye candy.
    • SteelChicken, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18RTFA, noob
    • tbeseda, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Hey kid! READ the post _before_ you comment...
    • kivimaki, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13I can understand digging something without reading it, but commenting on it?
    • kryptobs2000, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3ok, what's that have to do with anything?
  • flukierdonut, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11brave soul...deserves a digg
    • MrMongoose, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I wouldn't define anonymous ranting as brave... but he does get a digg for sticking up for himself and others.
  • seattle98104, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21same rings true for composer ads on cragslist, they're all "I need music for my film, but we spent our budget so we can't pay you!"

    idiots
  • jeffyjones, on 10/12/2007, -18/+5I think the stab at Craigslist is funny. I'll never understand why that site gets so much praise, because I always thought it looked and felt like an amateur piece of crap. Even more funny are the people who defend it. They make Digg fanboys look disinterested by comparison.
    • szembek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9It works.
    • kryptobs2000, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6fyi if you'd actually read the article, no one is 'taking a stab' at craigslist. I hardly ever hear people insult craigslist it's great. The point the guy is trying to make is towards some dumbasses that post on craigslist trying to get work for free.
  • szembek, on 10/12/2007, -9/+11If they can find idiots to work for free, than good for them. If not, they'll stop posting ads.
    • Jerim, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8That is the worst thing of all. At the end of the day, there is always someone desperate for work, and they take these types of jobs. Either someone new to the field, who honestly thinks getting his name out there is more important than getting paid, or some father of three who hasn't had a client in months and is hoping to drum up some business. It is always the millions who suffer at the hands of a few.
    • UGM2099, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2They created minimum wage to avoid stuff like this. There is always someone more desperate than you who will work for less than you, and there is always someone willing to take advantage of the desperate folks. For artists it's the same, only minimum wage is more like $25/hr.
  • setdosa, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1dugg mirror anyone?
  • schlongmeister, on 10/12/2007, -29/+9Entire text from the post:

    Every day, there are more and more Craigs List posts seeking “artists” for everything from auto graphics to comic books to corporate logo designs. More people are finding themselves in need of some form of illustrative service.

    But what they’re NOT doing, unfortunately, is realizing how rare someone with these particular talents can be.

    To those who are “seeking artists”, let me ask you; How many people do you know, personally, with the talent and skill to perform the services you need? A dozen? Five? One? …none?

    More than likely, you don’t know any. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be posting on craigslist to find them.

    And this is not really a surprise.

    In this country, there are almost twice as many neurosurgeons as there are professional illustrators. There are eleven times as many certified mechanics. There are SEVENTY times as many people in the IT field.

    So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand, would it make sense to ask your mechanic to work on your car for free? Would you look him in the eye, with a straight face, and tell him that his compensation would be the ability to have his work shown to others as you drive down the street?

    Would you offer a neurosurgeon the “opportunity” to add your name to his resume as payment for removing that pesky tumor? (Maybe you could offer him “a few bucks” for “materials”. What a deal!)

    Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?

    If you answered “yes” to ANY of the above, you’re obviously insane. If you answered “no”, then kudos to you for living in the real world.

    But then tell me… why would you think it is okay to live out the same, delusional, ridiculous fantasy when seeking someone whose abilities are even less in supply than these folks?

    Graphic artists, illustrators, painters, etc., are skilled tradesmen. As such, to consider them as, or deal with them as, anything less than professionals fully deserving of your respect is both insulting and a bad reflection on you as a sane, reasonable person. In short, it makes you look like a twit.

    A few things you need to know;

    1. It is not a “great opportunity” for an artist to have his work seen on your car/’zine/website/bedroom wall, etc. It IS a “great opportunity” for YOU to have their work there.

    2. It is not clever to seek a “student” or “beginner” in an attempt to get work for free. It’s ignorant and insulting. They may be “students”, but that does not mean they don’t deserve to be paid for their hard work. You were a “student” once, too. Would you have taken that job at McDonalds with no pay, because you were learning essential job skills for the real world? Yes, your proposition it JUST as stupid.

    3. The chance to have their name on something that is going to be seen by other people, whether it’s one or one million, is NOT a valid enticement. Neither is the right to add that work to their “portfolio”. They get to do those things ANYWAY, after being paid as they should. It’s not compensation. It’s their right, and it’s a given.

    4. Stop thinking that you’re giving them some great chance to work. Once they skip over your silly ad, as they should, the next ad is usually for someone who lives in the real world, and as such, will pay them. There are far more jobs needing these skills than there are people who possess these skills.

    5. Students DO need “experience”. But they do NOT need to get it by giving their work away. In fact, this does not even offer them the experience they need. Anyone who will not/can not pay them is obviously the type of person or business they should be ashamed to have on their resume anyway. Do you think professional contractors list the “experience” they got while nailing down a loose step at their grandmother’s house when they were seventeen?

    If you your company or gig was worth listing as desired experience, it would be able to pay for the services it received. The only experience they will get doing free work for you is a lesson learned in what kinds of scrubs they should not lower themselves to deal with.

    6. (This one is FOR the artists out there, please pay attention.) Some will ask you to “submit work for consideration”. They may even be posing as some sort of “contest”. These are almost always scams. They will take the work submitted by many artists seeking to win the “contest”, or be “chosen” for the gig, and find what they like most. They will then usually have someone who works for them, or someone who works incredibly cheap because they have no originality or talent of their own, reproduce that same work, or even just make slight modifications to it, and claim it as their own. You will NOT be paid, you will NOT win the contest. The only people who win, here, are the underhanded folks who run these ads. This is speculative, or “spec”, work. It’s risky at best, and a complete scam at worst. I urge you to avoid it, completely. For more information on this subject, please visit www.no-spec.com.

    So to artists/designers/illustrators looking for work, do everyone a favor, ESPECIALLY yourselves, and avoid people who do not intend to pay you. Whether they are “spec” gigs, or just some guy who wants a free mural on his living room walls. They need you. You do NOT need them.

    And for those who are looking for someone to do work for free… please wake up and join the real world. The only thing you’re accomplishing is to insult those with the skills you need. Get a clue.
  • mindgraffiti, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11kudos to the designer who wrote this. I feel the same way.
    • polyGone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Same here. I did a logo for a company (3d) and they wanted to pay me 1/50th of what they were going to use to implement it on the screens in front of the place. People make it seem like design/illustration is 'just playing' around. Try cracking open Maya or Max and see where you get. It takes creativity and a high amount of technical knowledge.
  • dcbebop, on 10/12/2007, -14/+1Anyone have a cache of this? CL took it down and duggmirror indexed the removed post.
  • CameronHigh, on 10/12/2007, -15/+34from http://www.paintercreativity.com/articles/top-10-lies.html


    1 "Do this one cheap (or free) and we'll make it up on the next one."

    No reputable business person would first give away their work and time or merchandise on the hope of making it up later. Can you imagine what a plumber would say if you said "come in, provide and install the sink for free and next time we'll make it up when we need a sink." You would be laughed at! Also the likelyhood is that if something important came along, they wouldn't use you.
    2 "We never pay a cent until we see the final product."

    This is a croc, unless the person is leaving the door open to cheat you out of your pay. Virtually every profession requres a deposit or incremental payment during anything but the smallest project. Once you have a working relationship, you may work out another arrangement with a client. But a new client should not ask you to go beyond an initial meeting and, perhaps some preliminary sketches without pay on the job!
    3 "Do this for us and you'll get great exposure! The jobs will just pour in!"

    Baloney. Tell a plumber "Install this sink and my friend will see and you'll get lots of business!" Our plumber friend would say "You mean even if I do a good job I have to give my work away to get noticed? Then it isn't worth the notice." Also the guy would likely brag to everyone he knows about how this would normally cost (X) dollars, but brilliant businessman that he is he got if for free! If anyone calls, they'll expect the same or better deal.
    4 On looking at sketches or concepts: "Well, we aren't sure if we want to use you yet, but leave your material here so I can talk to my partner/investor/wife/clergy."

    You can be sure that 15 minutes after you leave he will be on the phone to other designers, now with concepts in hand, asking for price quotes. When you call back you will be informed that your prices were too high and Joe Blow Design/Illustration will be doing the job. Why shouldn't they be cheaper? You just gave them hours of free consulting work! Until you have a deal, LEAVE NOTHING CREATIVE at the clients office.
    5 "Well, the job isn't CANCELLED, just delayed. Keep the account open and we'll continue in a month or two."

    Ummm, probably not. If something is hot, then not, it could be dead. It would be a mistake to *not* bill for work performed at this point and then let the chips fall where they may! Call in two months and someone else may be in that job. And guess what? They don't know you at all.....
    6 "Contract? We don't need no stinking contact! Aren't we friends?"

    Yes, we are, until something goes wrong or is misunderstood, then you are the jerk in the suit and I am that idiot designer, then the contract is essential. That is, unless one doesn't care about being paid. Any reputable business uses paperwork to define relationships and you should too.
    7 "Send me a bill after the work goes to press."

    Why wait for an irrelevant deadline to send an invoice? You stand behind your work, right? You are honest, right? Why would you feel bound to this deadline? Once you deliver the work and it is accepted, BILL IT. This point may just be a delaying tactic so the job goes through the printer prior to any question of your being paid. If the guy waits for the job to be printed, and you do changes as necessary, then he can stiff you and not take a chance that he'll have to pay someone else for changes.
    8 "The last guy did it for XXX dollars."

    That is irrelevant. If the last guy was so good they wouldn't be talking to you, now would they? And what that guy charged means nothing to you, really. People who charge too little for their time go out of business (or self-destruct financially, or change occupations) and then someone else has to step in. Set a fair price and stick to it.
    9 "Our budget is XXX dollars, firm."

    Amazing, isn't it? This guy goes out to buy a car, and what, knows exactly what he is going to spend before even looking or researching? Not likely. A certain amount of work costs a certain amount of money. If they have less money (and you *can*) do less work and still take the job. But make sure they understand that you are doing less work if you take less money that you originally estimated. Give fewer comps, simplify, let them go elsewhere for services (like films) etc.
    10 "We are having financial problems. Give us the work, we'll make some money and we'll pay you. Simple."

    Yeah, except when the money comes, you can expect that you will be pretty low on the list to be paid. If someone reaches the point where they admit that the company is in trouble, then they are probably much worse off than they are admitting to. Even then, are you a bank? Are you qualified to check out their financials? If the company is strapped to the point where credit is a problem through credit agencies, banks etc. what business would you have extending credit to them. You have exactly ZERO pull once they have the work. Noble intentions or not, this is probably a losing bet. But if you are going to roll the dice, AT LEAST you should be getting additional money for waiting. The bank gets interest and so should you. That is probably why the person is approaching you; to get six months worth of free interest instead of paying bank rates for credit and then paying you with that money. Don't give away money.

    Now, this list wasn't meant to make anyone crazy or paranoid, but is designed to inject some reality into the fantasy.

    You are GOING to be dealing with people who are unlike yourself. Their motivations are their own and their attitudes are probably different than yours. There are going to be demands, problems, issues and all the hassles that go with practically ANY work/job/money situation. Too many times I see the sad example of someone walking in to a situation with noble intentions and then getting royally screwed, because what they see as an opportunity and a labor of love, the other party sees as something else entirely, not at all romantic or idealized, but raw and simple.

    How can you deal with this stuff and still do good creative work? Good question. THIS is why an education is important. You learn, out of the line of fire, how to deal with the art at it's own level and also how to deal with the crap that surrounds it. You may have tough teachers and think that it can't be worse, but wait until a business person has a hundred grand riding on your art! Then you will know what "demanding" means. You will then thank all those tough teachers for building up the calluses that enable you to enjoy the job rather than just feeling like it is all a big waste of time!

    In the end, working commercially, being a terrific artist is about 25% of the task. If that is the only part of the task that you are interested in, do yourself a favor. Don't turn "pro."
    • tbeseda, on 10/12/2007, -29/+2interesting, but dont abuse the comments.
      go play while the grown-ups talk.
    • kryptobs2000, on 10/12/2007, -23/+4I don't know what you wrote, but I'm digging you down cause it's too long and I must scroll through that crap to get to the next comment
    • TheSkinsFactory, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7What aggravates me the most are Net 60 day payment terms. How many artists out there get a client that waited too long and then wants you to rush through the project only to make you wait 60 days to get paid?

      I always laugh when i get a potential client and they want to trade advertising on their website to offset some costs. Hey, if you're Microsoft or Disney you got it, but if you're some start-up who's ranking on Alexa is a number closer to the population of India than an IQ... don't waste your breath.

      Artists need to do the following:

      1. Make sure you sign contracts. Hire a lawyer. As nice as the potential client sounds on the phone, you never know what you're getting yourself into until you're all ready in it.

      2. Get a 50% retainer - up front. Do not turn over your deliverables or source files until you get your final payment. Once you give the client the work, you have no bargaining position.

      3. Put a clause in the agreement that stipulates that any type of project scope creep will be billed. I always make sure that the deliverable we're responsible for handing over are listed in an Exhibit of the agreement. This way if functionality or new work is introduce after you sign the agreement, you'll get paid for it.

      Just a few things to think about.

      Jeff
    • KSUdesigner, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"What aggravates me the most are Net 60 day payment terms. How many artists out there get a client that waited too long and then wants you to rush through the project only to make you wait 60 days to get paid? "

      I don't get what you're trying to say there. Artists typically set their own payment terms in the contract, clients don't have anything to do with the terms (other than the date that they actually mail the check). At least in my experience, when I bill my customers I always have "net 30 days" on there. I agree having to wait 30 sucks, but that's how pretty much all businesses bill. And if they want me to rush something through...that's why the rush fee was invented. Oh, and don't forget about the ***** fee too :)
    • TheSkinsFactory, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Artists typically set their own payment terms in the contract, clients don't have anything to do with the terms (other than the date that they actually mail the check)."

      That may work when you're doing the website for Johnny's House of Tiles and Waffles, but try dictating your terms with Microsoft. Yes, they often bend if you're good at what you do, but let's be realistic... you don't set the terms of an agreement with a Fortune 100 company... you ask their attorneys if they wouldn't mind changing something you don't like. That's if you want the project.
    • umrgregg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I love The Skins Factory :D You guys do awesome work!
    • prammy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@TheSkinsFactory

      First of all, let me say I just looked at the Skinsfactory portfolio page and wow. Awesome stuff.

      Secondly I totally agree with you. I get asked for discounts all the time for everything. For designs, for actual code everything. I just set myself a minimum per type of work that I do where if the client wishes to get a discount below that amount, I just tell them to go find someone else.

      I used to do websites for gaming teams that I participated in. Which was fine since it was generally for me anyways. But then others see it and then ask me if I can do a site for them with all those bells and whistles for a ridiculously low amount of money. My response was always no. If they can't afford it, then they should find someone else.
    • WileEPeyote, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0You can't compare art to plumbing. These analogies are all over the place and inconsistent.
    • prammy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@wileepeyote

      How is the plumbing analogy incorrect?

      When you need a plumber to fix your pipes, you basically need a service that the plumber provides. You pay them for time, labor and materials in exchange for the work done.

      When you need an artist or web designer to do work for you, you need a service that the artist or designer provides. You pay them for time,labor and possible materials in exchange for the work done.

      The difference is that plumbers and other contractors usually have unions to represent them. The unions help in setting up pay rates etc. Also your local choices of plumbers are limited compared to designers. With designers, you have a wider choice but if you want quality work done, you still have to pay a good amount of money.

      In some scenarios, the designers might be willing to donate their time and effort. But just like with plumbers, you cannot ask them to donate for some carrot which you try and dangle in front of their face.

      I do a multitude of work for people. Mostly tech/code work in addition to some site design. One thing I try to do at the start of every contract is setup a series of milestones. If I don't get paid within a certain timeframe of a milestone being completed, then I don't do their work period and they do not have copyright of anything I have done till that time, regardless of the time I have invested. Conversely, if I am late or do not meet expectations, then the client also has the right to terminate the project.

      I don't do ANY sort of work anymore without a proper agreement being in place first. I had enough of agreeing to be paid after project completion only to be stonewalled after the client has already started using my work. And I definitely don't want to be paid 60-120 days after the project was completed. I want the money in 15 days or less.
    • multimed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@TheSkinsFactory
      And if you can't afford a lawyer, you can always design a new logo or website for one for free in exchange...oh never mind.

      But good points, one of the toughest things for me since moving from corporate life to being on my own is talking about money. But however tough it is to get into that discussion up front, it's a hundred times worse later on.
  • hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9While the post makes some good points, on this one phrase he doesn't understand economics:
    "So, given that they are less rare, and therefore less in demand,"
    No things that are less rare are usually more in demand simply because being more in demand usually ecurages people to pursue those endeavors. When something is scarce it it usually because nobody wants it. Historically, the arts have had less demand due to more pressing matters like food and shelter. In more recent times, it's experienced a damper from the RIAA and MPAA wanting to keep earlier works in narrow channels which makes them harder to practice from.

    It also doesn't address the concept of internships and why it is successful.
    • kryptobs2000, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3they're rare because they're in less demand, he just phrased it wrong but his point still holds true.

      and internships don't apply to this, no one takes an internship with some lady wanting a picture on their car, they take internships with credible people who have things to teach them that they can learn from and also put on their resume, totally different concept here.
    • hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Unfortunately, I don't think there's much of a difference in the minds of those who think it's a "great opportunity" which is why it needs to be addressed.
    • jayhawk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i guess i agree that the market tends to work itself out. if what designers do is in such high demand then the price will rise to reflect it. if the design work can be satisfactorily accomplished by requesting a student do it for cheap wages, then the complaint is misplaced to blame the person/company that is perfectly satisfied with hiring cheap labor. perhaps designers can beg other designers not to work for such low wages? that is one way to combat this, but you'll never get anywhere complaining about ignorant people trying to pull a fast one on designers if what they are doing is working . . . maybe they aren't so ignorant after all. ;~)
    • manova, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I take an internship to gain experience and put something in my resume.
      I take an creative project to gain experience and put something in my portfolio.

      What's the difference?
      I took a low paying web design job for "experience" (which I got by showing them a portfolio of sites I had designed for free as a hobby). I hated it, dealing with fancy investors that had a poor plan, and even poorer idea of what can and cannot be done on the web. I swore I would never do web design as a job again. Then in grad school I was offered an assistantship for maintaining the department's web site. Once again, after dealing with professors and staff that had no idea what they wanted other than they did not want what I did, I quit and went back to grading papers as a TA. The valuable experience I gained was that I do not want a job designing web sites. The experience of learning what you do not like is in my opinion, more valuable than learning how to do something.
  • honus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Looks almost like the way some business majors or med students get abused during internship.
    • erikf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Well said. Everybody going into a high competition, high pressure field gets jerked around, but artists tend to be the whiny, emotional types that would bitch about it. Med students and MBAs have always sacrificed big time doing 80 hour, 90 hour weeks on the hope of succeeding one day far in the future. There's no instant reward, it takes years of delayed gratification. It's called paying your dues.
    • notastat, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Very well put. Graphic design does go unappreciated many times. Too bad the page on craigslist is down.


      Sarah
      http://www.designvitality.com/
  • mbthompson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Well said. I'm not an illustrator, but I do work with motion graphics and audio/video production and its often the same case. I'm going to print this out and post it on the board in the art department of my university.
  • Jeveran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15Substitute any creative trade for artist, and all that the professional illustrator posted is true.
  • tnwake, on 10/12/2007, -19/+1Yes this is insanely ironic considering how plain, amateur and ugly craigslist itself is. Personally I wouldn't trust a graphic designer that was on that site.
  • tralalaa, on 10/12/2007, -26/+4Cry more.

    You're offering services on craigslist, wtf do you expect? Not to mention if you're trying to get work from craigslist, that doesn't say much for your skills.

    So STFU and go find clients on a site not completely populated by cons and degenerates.
    • ginty, on 10/12/2007, -13/+2Exactly. Unless you are competing for this business (and you shouldn't) who cares? Its called free market and if they can find people to work for free/cheap, good for them. Those aren't the clients I am after anyway. Good clients understand how compensation relates to the work and are more than willing to pay. REAL businesses have expenses and understand this. The problem is when Jimmy from down the street decides he's going to take on Google, then realizes he doesn't have any money, so he needs to give someone an "opportunity".

      Now, all of you quit whining and go find some real clients to worry about and real money to enjoy.
    • seattle98104, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5and what site would that be, artard?
    • vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2No, you are confusing "art/media/design" with "casual encounters".
  • SuckMyDigg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Awesomeness. I worked in graphics for a photo studio designing templates, creating actions, designing the workflow, doing the retouching and repairing of photos and the like all for $7 an hour because I had no background in any of it. Nonetheless the studio uses all my work to this day in their everyday activity... and to top it off they wanted to re-hire me when I was back in town visiting for $8 an hour, but I would also have to run the front of the store as well. I wish I had read this article before that last offer... I would've at least been able to vocalize why I was so inclined to reject the offer without feeling ashamed and embarrassed.

    The guy that wrote this is my hero.
    • tbeseda, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2you knew what you got yourself into tho.
      that would be your error, and good practice by the studio to find a skilled but less experienced designer.
      yeah they are cheap, but designers have to know what they are getting themselves into as well.
  • zerokill, on 10/12/2007, -8/+4haha here in the Netherlands we have got way to many grapic artists and most of them are ***** :P
    Funny to see that in the states there are twice as many neoro surgeons because here everybody does the "easy" study for grapic artists :P
  • staplez, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2Web developers have to deal with this crap too. I agree the situation is crap, but I disagree with his soapbox saying:
    "Would you be able to seriously even CONSIDER offering your web hosting service the chance to have people see their work, by viewing your website, as their payment for hosting you?"
    Because yes, that happens a lot. A LOT unfortunately.
    Don't tell me I'm not walked on J@ck@ss.
    Oh yeah and let's not forget internships which is exactly what he's talking about when he talks about free student work.
  • ciaziraphale, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Personally, I don't see why that was flagged down by Craigslist users, unless they presumed it had no bearing on the list (which I can see that). I thought it was a well-written, insightful opinion that really hit the nail on the head. By the way, this can be applied to anyone in the trades, not just artists. There are too many jerks trying to get people to do something for nothing and I think it's unethical as well as reprehensible. Anyway, good article and I hope people learn from it.
  • bbqplate, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9yup so true. i didnt fully understand how difficult art can be, till i gave it a try. im a coder, and i thought creating some graphics takes a few minutes. how wrong was I!. to me, its just like coding, the more time you spend on it, the faster and easier the simple things become. i dont think id sell my code for pennies now even though it would take me a few minutes to write something that used to take me hours. the graphic artist should feel the same way.
  • princessangry, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6that's how I feel. I have had 6 clients this year pull crap on me like that. I would give them a [watermarked] low res comp, email it to them, and no reply. (well not all 6 did that but i know 2 of that did) and I told them that I wanted to know what they thought of it, and they never replied. I will not deal with people like that again, one of the actually did reply, and he said "send us a higher res comp for us to 'evaluate'" and I knew they were wanting to steal it. Glad i backed out of that deal because they went through 10 designers and they all quit.
  • PleaseJustDie, on 10/12/2007, -16/+9Personally, if someone requests something to be done for them for free on craigslist and someone else offers to do it for free, where's the ***** problem?

    This guy is just upset because enough people out there are willing to do a job for free that he can't make as much money. ***** him and his *****, if he doesn't like it, tough, welcome to a free market society.
    • marc.smith, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4@PleaseJustDie

      bravo!
    • MaximegalonInfo, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1@PleaseJustDie

      Thank you. Finally! Sure, we all wish everyone got paid top dollar. Guess what, it's the real world. Plenty of people want to make video games (they claim it is a great job), that is why they take less pay. Most creative jobs are like that. Don't like it, get another job. Or, don't make it your full time job.

      Maybe Linux and OSS should dry up then? They offer a great product/service for free. OSS developers don't run around bitching. No-one seems to have a problem with them. They make it hard for MSFT to make money. And when MSFT uses FUD to discredit a cheaper/free/better service, everyone rips on MSFT.

      Should people/companies that charge a premium when another product/service is better and cheaper put up or shut up?

      We all get screwed by employers in various ways. Get over it. Don't use a free Craig's List service as your person soapbox. That's what blogs are for.

      You may not digg me down.
    • takamalak, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Take your free market "society" and shove it up you ass.
    • ArrEmmDee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Listen to this man. He knows what he's saying.
  • marc.smith, on 10/12/2007, -13/+3What a crybaby.
    Anybody (in any field) who has done project-based consulting can list 6 points (as he did) about why they would or wouldn't take a particular job. Author also does a wonderful job of comparing apples to Lincoln Logs on a few occasions.

    This sounds like some a-hole ranting about getting burned.
    Get over it, and then join the rest of us in said "real world."
  • tatro, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Looks like this guy was from Chicago. As designer working in Chicago as well, I have to say he is right. People in Chicago need to get a clue about hiring creative talent.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I've had many people ask me about graphic design rates. It doesn't help graphic designers when they give the "art gallery" rate. That is the, "What do you think it's worth" rate.

      My GF went to Columbia. I've met more Columbia GD grads that are out of work than I have that have consistent work. When I ask them about Columbia's career placement, they respond, "What career placement?" Not a good sign.
  • zclip, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17As a graphic designer (and student technically, one class away from my bachelor's) I have to agree with him one million percent. I have said what he stated above, in essence anyway, to all of my teachers and everyone else who buys into this ***** that artists should give their work away for free because it's good exposure.

    I can't tell you how many places offer FREE internships, as if they are doing you a favor by letting you work your ass of for them. I find it appalling.

    As he points out, talented graphic artists are quite rare, but the emergence of desktop publishing and personal computers has made everyone believe that they have some talent for creating graphics. I look some of ***** secretaries at my work do and I have to constantly repeat myself: Dragging and dropping clipart onto a word document does NOT make you a graphic deigner, nor does it look good by even the most modest standards.

    And don't get me started on the lost art of typography which begins with the word FONT which actually almost always is referring to TYPEFACE (which is a family of similar characters, like Times New Roman) which is created in A FONT (method or rather language used for creating a typeface, like Postscript or True Type or Opentype). So if you happen to read this, please help me in my fight against ignorance and never ever call it a font again.

    As for the article, I will try hard to memorize all of that and rant it off next time I hear someone blathering on about the chance to show you work for the amazing amount of FREE dollars.

    Wish I could digg this more than once!
    • fotodevil, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10An internship is a slightly different case. Many internships are unpaid, regardless of the field. I can't say that I disagree with you that it sucks to work for free. Just because you are a college student doesn't mean you shouldn't be paid for your work. But just remember that an internship is usually with a larger, more reputable company. You may even get hired by them if you do a good job. What this guy is talking about is people who are trying to scam you out of your work.
    • WeeklyGeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Not many people know the difference between font and typeface. Typography is INCREDIBLY important. Stuff like widows and orphans happen way too often in graphic design.

      You can make a stunning design using type and basic geometric shapes, sometimes you don't even need fancy graphics or photos.

      Hear, hear brutha.
    • zclip, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3fotodevil: that is a good point. it is not the same, but I still find it an incredibly silly proposition. Whenever I was offered free internship I replied with: and who exactly is going to pay for my bills ? Just because you're in college, doesn't mean you're on a free ride ... from everything. It's quite the opposite usually.
    • Ascus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The only free work that should be done is for charities, and even there you should get full credit. Sad part is there are some many artist that fall for this crap they keep doing it driving the opertunities down.

      If a business can't afford your work in cash, they better have some to barter. If they have nothing to barter, then why the hell are they in business.

    • carltonsmith, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In a perfect world we would all get offered jobs based on a transcript without having to show what it is that we can do. However, in the real world those of us that take unpaid internships to get some real work experience end up getting better jobs later on because of it. Those jobs can be used as references and they help in our development. Companies know that just because you can create something doesn't mean you can produce in a corporate setting. They need some evidence you are able to do that first.
  • chesscat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I've known many people who think that just because they can launch Photoshop or Illustrator that somehow that makes them graphic artists. There are a lot of hacks out there. Anyone who posts on craiglists with the hope of getting real employment is probably unemployable to begin with and lacking basic skills.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4This just isn't true. In my experience, applicants learning of the position through Craigslist have been superior to applicants referred through all the other sources I've used for recruiting. The CLers, as we call them, usually have extensive technical experience.
  • jonellison13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1damn strait.
  • rodeosmurf, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I understand how this guy could be annoyed, and it really is unfair for people to offer unpaid work; But would this really be a problem if graphic designers weren't taking these kinds of lame jobs? As the author mentions, it's unrealistic to expect neurosurgeons or mechanics to do work for free; it's also unrealistic to expect people to pay for services when there are idiots out there giving away free labor.
    • zclip, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5it's not graphic designers who take these jobs. it's people who think they are graphic designers. that's why the most important aspect of design, which is typography, is almost a lost art. people have gotten used to terrible work by incompetent, uneducated, wannabes.
  • uther, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10This isn't specific to Graphic Design or *any* industry, really.

    I was a professional photographer for many,many years. I can't tell you how many times I got burned in my early years shooting weddings, family reunions, charity events after being approached with the same logic (and results) the author outlined.

    I finally realized I couldn't support my family and got out of professional photography and entered IT. Guess what? Same problem, different approach. Everybody has a computer problem or wants help with a website.

    Bottom line, everybody wants something for free. If you have a marketable skill, or work in area that has a good that people desire, they will try to fleece you. It varies in degrees if you are a lawyer, doctor, vet, writer, artist, photographer, computer geek, professional cheerleader, sporting venue coordinator, radio DJ...the list goes on.
  • Cleotis, on 10/12/2007, -10/+1I don't see what the big deal is. Art has no discernable tangible value. It's a luxury, in all cases. People naturally want to get a good deal, especially for luxuries.
    • tatro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It is about design, not art. Design has a function. It isn't a luxury.
    • gregdigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The tangible value is based on how much money the company doing the hiring makes off of the product that the artist was used for. If a publisher hires an artist to illustrate a series of books and the books are expected to turn a $50k profit, the artist should make more than $40 for each illustration.
    • The_Dude, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Uh no, people generally pay way over fair value for a luxury. That's why it's a luxury. Because most people can't afford it on a regular basis. No one goes to a "luxury boutique" and expects to be able to haggle.
  • nalgae, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Of all the employers to complain about, you complain about the ones you find off of craigslist? Who do you EXPECT to find on craigslist?

    All reputable companies hire through other channels, not some anonymous posting board. If you want a real job, go out and find one. Craigslist is full of people who are "Gee, I should start my own business! But I have nothing other than my desire to make this business, and I have no money, so I wonder if I can get someone to work for free with me!" Complaining on craigslist is like farting into the wind.
  • TheToecutter, on 10/12/2007, -11/+8Let me dial 911 and get the designer a whaaambulance.

    The market drives itself. The only people "graphic designers" have to blame are themsevles. In other words, all you graphic "designers" quit ***** whining like little bitches to one another and DO something. Whining about it accomplishes nothing.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1+1 Sanity

      Good gosh. Finally! Honestly, these kind of rants are hilarious. Ultimately, their problem is graphic designers themselves. What is the value of this service? They compare GD to mechanics. I know how much the rate is for a mechanic. IT'S ON THE F'N WALL IN BIG NUMBERS! It usually reads "Labor Rate(hour): $65-95" depending on the type of vehicle serviced. I haven't the slightest clue what the rate is to edit my wedding photos to make an album.

      We need Captain Obvious!
  • double0jimb0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I am sorry, but I am both an artist and professional engineer. I do feel for this guy, but I am a professional at engineering for a reason. Artist have been under recognized and underpaid for centuries, this is not breaking news. This author (hopefully) knew this long before he decided to pursue graphic design as a career. This trend of wanting free labor on craigslist is just the most current manifestation of this discrimination. I am not saying he does not have a right to vent a little, and there is certainly nothing wrong with setting people straight on craigslist.

    Art is/was my first love, but engineering is what brings home the bacon.
    • cockmaster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1and i dont think the submitter should have used the term "graphic designer" an thats an entiredly different thing than "illustrator"
    • gregdigg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5When someone is a truly talented artist, do you think they should instead become a banker because artists are underappreciated? Or should they do what they love and what they are gifted at, and attempt to change the minds of the people who are clearly in the wrong while they're at it? I think the latter.
    • erikf, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2"When someone is a truly talented artist, do you think they should instead become a banker because artists are underappreciated? Or should they do what they love and what they are gifted at, and attempt to change the minds of the people who are clearly in the wrong while they're at it? I think the latter."

      That's retarded. You don't deserve to get paid a dime more than what you are worth. And "worth" is completely relative to howothers value your skill and labor.
      For fvcks sake lets allow everybody to stay home from work and do what they love all day and get paid! The original poster understands there's no such thing as a free ride.
    • tfinniga, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yeah, I was thinking about going into some sort of commercial artwork.
      But then I got the following advice:
      1. Do what you like
      2. Do what you're good at
      3. Do what the world needs

      Turns out that CS was a better fit for most of those questions.

      Still, I do feel for the guy. I think he's got a valid point, but the only way that his rant will change things is if young, talented artists stop taking low-paying jobs. Which is not so likely.
    • gregdigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I think a lot of people are missing the point of this thread; we aren't talking about people wanting a painting to hang on the wall, we're talking about the fact that a lot of companies need artists -- MOST all of them do, in fact, for website design and various marketing materials -- and they want those things to look really good because it reflects directly on the company's image... yet for some reason, most of them aren't willing to pay the artist what he's worth.

      And for erikf saying my comment was retarded, then using a logical fallacy to back up his immature comment, I was TALKING about people being paid what they're worth. That's the problem: companies always want the best, but they expect to pay all artists the same amount, regardless of the vast difference between their skill levels.
  • diggerphelps, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Pretty good rant.
    They get posted on CL all the time.

    I've seen good ones in reference to programmers/web developers as well.
  • cockmaster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2as an illustrator, I fully understand where this is coming from. however to play devils advocate, there arent a ton of full-time artist/illustrator positions and many of these people are desperate for freelance work. I know I was once. my point being, its not easy to turn down opportunities when you're trying to make this your living..sure he's right, but its a really tough world out there for illustrators. just realize that before anybody criticizes an artist for being tempted by these ads.
  • krellor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3While I like the sentiment they are wrong about the disparity in demand based on the numbers of people practicing a profession. I would bet that there are less than 100 underwater basket weavers in the world, but that doesn't mean there is much demand for their services. Likewise just because there are more neurosurgeons, mechanics, etc... doesn't mean that there is less demand for them than for artists. In point of fact, at least for me, I need a mechanic more often than I need an artist. I'm not saying that the artist is less important, etc... or shouldn't be payed, but that my demand for them is very low. Such is the way with all industry. Eventually if demand for artists increases more people will join the profession in search of money. Much like is happening with Pharmacy and what happened with the IT field. I remember the day when there were severe shortages of IT folks, so every half wit in college that chose their profession based on money decided that they wanted to go into computer science. Well, ultimately the demand evens out as the numbers grow and now it is a relatively stable industry.

    As a working programmer I feel the same way when someone asks me to fix their computer for no compensation (family aside of course). For one, I write algorithms and do data normalization all day, who says I know jack diddley about yahoo IM. Cause I don't. Secondly, I make good money to pay off all those years of school, who says I'm gonna whore out my skills for jack. But you don't see me saying that I'm in more demand than some other profession. Anyway, I agree with the sentiment about the money and stupid people trying to get free work from you, but don't try and trump up your own importance over other industries because ultimately they are all just as important as the market makes them.
  • joemama82, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I agree that graphic designers should be paid for their work, but does anyone else think it is ludicrous to compare a graphic designer to a neurosurgeon?

    Also, just because graphic designers are more rare does not mean they are more in demand than mechanics. I'm willing to bet there are way more than 11 times as many people with cars that need work than people who need a graphic designer.
    • boomshakalaka, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0he's saying that people percieve art and design work as a commodity, that should be sold at the lowest possible price. why not? everyone has a computer, that means everyone is a designer, right?
  • my10cent, on 10/12/2007, -16/+0Someone is a little full of themselves, I would never hire someone with an ego that big. he is a freaking artist not a sports star *lol* loser.
    • cockmaster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11you can go "lol" yourself back to your moms basement. when you get out in the real world, you come back and tell us what its like.
    • my10cent, on 10/12/2007, -12/+0take your flaming elsewhere and get a less offending name.
    • UltimaNut, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@my10cent

      Artists contribute more to the human race than sports stars **ever** will.

      You get the digg down....loser.
    • boomshakalaka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Someone is a little full of themselves, I would never hire someone with an ego that big. he is a freaking artist not a sports star *lol* loser."
      you seem to have misplaced ego there. if he's and artist or designer he is probably doing work that impacts society and culture. whereas your hypothetical sports star adds nothing but entertainment. with a big ego. and an overly large paycheck.
  • chesscat, on 10/12/2007, -6/+0If many people are doing this for free, what does that tell you?? It tells you they are a dime a dozen and that
    the skills are not as valuable as they think the are.
  • metall1c1ne, on 10/12/2007, -7/+0I know an artist....she has mad talent...too bad we stopped talking years ago :(

  • svartgotik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4This hits close to home for me. I'm a skilled tradesman in the fire apparatus industry. I am a certified welder, plumber, fabricator, and mechanic. My job pays me fairly well, but i don't want to do this my whole life. I've always been into artsy things, always been into music and graphic design, but unfortunately, people try to take advantage of you and get things for free. I too have been told "you do this for me and it'll open up a lot of doors for you". Well, then you sit thinking you'd get finally noticed on your talent and creativity, but Monday rolls along and you're still swiping a Kronos badge so you can work another ten hour day.

    I've even applied twice in-house for graphic design positions, denied both times because i have no formal education in the area of graphic design. It didn't matter that i supplied a CD that autoran a presentation of my samples.

    So, i've given up.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Good going McFly. Give up.

      Start a design house. Really, how hard can it be? The problem isn't really the work, it is finding the jobs that require the GD labor. This is why these ads show up on CL all the time. They're probably created by other graphic designers.
    • GabrielS, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Oh, and by the way, there's a helluva stuff to be welded. That doesn't mean the demand is or should be the same for your meager artistry.

      note: I don't mean to belittle your art. I'm just trying to create a frame where welding is in obvious demand, but art is something entirely different and thus the expectations are altered.
    • flipmeat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They weren't smart enough to put your CD in the cupholder.
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