What is Digg?68 Comments
- GrahamStw, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24> I think it would be more useful if developers stopped using Latin. It's a dead language!
"Lorem ipsum..." is the typesetting industry's standard dummy text and it has been in use for over 500 years. Take a look at http://www.lipsum.com/ - the fact that it is written in a "dead language" helps, as it stops you getting distracted by the words. - sleepyboy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20Oh, one more thing...
Calling people "asshats" isn't necessarily how to win people over to your argument. - elnerdo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12No.. You'll look like a moron, because they're two different languages.
- wistar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I am in awe of the typographical sense they've used to compose "This Service Is Temporarily Unavailable."
- somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I take it you still haven't found any of the "massive amounts of research" you keep mentioning.
Good luck with that. I think you'll need it. - thescimitar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Obviously you've not taken a history of graphic design course. RTFA, this is about typography. Not once, that I could find, did he claim his "five simple steps" were based on the science of reading. Rather, he SPECIFICALLY SAID, "It's our responsibility, as designers, to embrace the rules which are born of a craft which goes back hundreds of years."
Ass. - reluctantdigger, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10marcuschi, you miss the point. There are many times that I don't read through the comments of every article, or follow every link within the comments. If a good or helpful article is referenced, it deserves to be submitted in its own right.
Or perhaps you wanted to show off the fact that you noticed the link before? That, my friend, is a much more rampant problem on digg. - techobo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@djlosh
If you think that typography does not encompass color palettes, column width and bullet usage, I suggest researching the definition of typography. - techobo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I work as a designer for a publisher and do four colour work all the time. If you are doing a four colour job, it does not matter how much ink you use, it's the same price. If you have a full page of colour or a little dot, the price is the same. Stop making up facts.
Also typography still relates to web design. So I am not really sure what your last post was about.
"Typography is performed by typesetters,compositors, typographers, graphic artists, art directors, clerical workers and lay users. Until the Digital Age typography was a specialized occupation. Digitization opened up typography to lay users and new generations of visual designers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typography - estvir, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Dead already - http://www.duggmirror.com/design/Five_simple_steps_to_better_typography_3/
Fairly good read, typography seems to be little thought of these days, or at least by the majority of 'designers.' - sleepyboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6All of the comments are "stupid yuppy bloggers"? Am I missing something? Comments like, "You should also check out the Thinking With Type website and Robert Bringhursts Elements of Typographic Style,” don't strike me as "stupid yuppy bloggers." There are a lot of great comments that relate to other books and resources for those interested in learning more. Perhaps you've never read books like "Elements of Typographic Style," but it's one of the definitive typography books. This article is a great primer and helps to renew the discussion on good typography, which has been missing from web design.
- reva, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6That was completely irrelevant... yet horribly addictive.
My personly step to one-step typography improvement? http://www.bancomicsans.com - ellenweber, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Good advice -- especially on the number of words and the space allocation. It really does make a difference. Thanks for sharing this one.
Brain Based Business - techobo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Kerning was a process that the old typesetters used to actually modify the sides of metal type so that certain letters could be moved closer to adjacent letters. In desktop publishing it is similar in that you can make two letters closer when the white space seems unbalanced.
Tracking, in desktop publishing usually means that you are loosening or tighening the letter spacing of an entire sentence or paragraph. - mikeyp51, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Good article with some stuff specific to web use and CSS. The best easy to understand reference on the subject I have seen though is Beyond the Mac is not a Typewriter by Robin Williams (no not that one). It's not really Mac specific either although it is so titled, and don't mind the age, it talks about type concepts invented in the 15th and 16th centuries and explains their proper usage.
I would guess that anything by her, including her Non Designer's Design Book would be good as well, although I have not read it.
-Mikey P
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0201885980/sr=8-3/qid=1156279729/ref=pd_bbs_3/104-4198911-4222360?ie=UTF8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0321193857/ref=pd_sim_b_4/104-4198911-4222360?ie=UTF8 - somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@djlosch,
Now I'm baffled. You explain that he's not talking about printed media, because he calls the audience "users", then you go on to explain why he's wrong, because dark backgrounds are a bad idea in printed media, even though the article doesn't claim that they are a particularly good idea. It's particularly confusing when you consider the fact that the word "user" doesn't actually appear in the article. Perhaps you're confusing the article with the comments that come after it?
You also keep talking about colour palettes- something the article doesn't mention once. Not sure why that's got your goat...
If you are so against providing some useful pointers towards this "massive amount of research", then maybe you'd like to just state the points in the article which you think are wrong, rather than just making vague, meaningless blanket statements?
I can only assume that something else the author has written (perhaps another article in the same series- which I've read before BTW) has personally upset you or a loved one, because you seem to have the kind of unfocussed vitriol normally only seen in an adolescent Playstation fanboy. - krinthekuz, on 09/16/2008, -12/+16and for the asshats who have already started downranking my post
-- http://www.useit.com/papers/webwriting/writing.html
-- http://www.poynterextra.org/eyetrack2004/main.htm
-- http://www.dartmouth.edu/~webteach/articles/text.html
these are just a few examples of studies done that say the exact opposite of what he said. google for even more references terms including some combination of: "web writing" case study" "usability" "eye tracking".
what the author is saying here is just wrong, and lacks credible scientific proof. - techobo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@djlosch
Your comments on this article are some of the most ignorant replys I have ever seen. You say your have been stepping up your web writing? Try using capital letters to start sentences as well as using simple punctuation.
You keep on going on about million dollar research to disprove the post. Why don't you post some of the findings of these studies? The one link that you posted about eyetrack states that their findings were based on a few dozen people from one location, which to me does not sound too extensive. - Grimboy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Or they do and just don't find it particularly funny. (Besides you could be paralysed in the fingers and doing everything using voice recognition.)
- aquax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I own both of those books, and they're both dated certainly, but the design fundamentals are perhaps even more important now, because any Joe Schmo can create a poorly designed site, and that poor design is bleeding in to other areas, like magazine design.
I hope Robin can take the time to redo all of her books and reissue them with some updates for web design, particularly fluid vs. fixed sized sites.
Oh, and there actually is "The PC is not a Typewriter" to coincide with the Mac version. - somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@djlosch
Nearly a thousand words in that last post, and still no sign of anything to back up any of your points. When your original complaint was that the article doesn't back up any of it's points. Good work!
>>>”He refers to USERS (over and over again).”>>>“as for case studies: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=readability+memory+web+writing&btnG=Google+Search”>“call me a jerk, but at least im right. i would love to put bullets and bbcode all over this to make it much more readable (bc apparently you asshats are not reading what i write, or even the article).”>”and i wont be responding to this bc like i said, arguing with you guys is like arguing with a brick wall.” - Belayman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The article above is good, but if you're really interested in typesetting beautiful documents (and web pages), I would suggest using LaTeX.
- sleazy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3indeed, my apologies to the digg community :)
- matriculated, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Belayman is right, reversed type that is printed on a press usually suffers because the ink bleeds into the paper and spreads (not really smudging but I get what he means) - that's why you should increase the weight of your typeface - not the reverse as Mark Boulton instructs. However, if the type is not going to press than it really shouldn't matter - this might be what Mark is talking about since it's a web centric article.
- smithco, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5djlosch, I'm not digging you down 'cause you're wrong, I'm digging you down 'cause you're being a jerk about it.
- somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3A guide to writing for the web from 1997 is "current"? Never mind the fact that it takes up the full width of the window, regardless of it's size.
"and for the asshats who have already started downranking my post
-- http://www.useit.com/papers/webwriting/writing.html
-- http://www.poynterextra.org/eyetrack2004/main.htm
-- http://www.dartmouth.edu/~webteach/articles/text.html
these are just a few examples of studies done that say the exact opposite of what he said."
No- they are examples of studies that have nothing to do with typography (unless you include the passing reference that you can use bold or italics to make text stand out, and the second one's interesting conclusion that people are more likely to read smaller text, on the grounds that they take longer to read it.)
I'd be interested if you could post some links that are actually relevant to your points though. (You know- about the letters and layout of text, rather than about writing and language.)
Then again, I don't actually see the points you're criticising actually being made in the article. Maybe you should bring the text size down in your browser- apparently that makes it more readable... - sintaxi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2No problem, I agree, the spacing of words is interesting. the leading in relation to the measure is something I didnt know either. Thanks Mikey for the link. 50cents looks like a great deal.
Brock - 6TON, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hey man, not everyone sits up all night looking for quasi interesting articles to submit. Maybe someone saw it inside another article and said... wow, this is really useful and just maybe more helpful than the article it was a part of. Almost everyone who posted about the article mentioned how helpful it was, isn't that the point. People using the site and gaining insight on lots of thing, not just the ***** you deem worthy. Man I swear, I really hate elitists!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Is mirroring ever useful? Every time I've come across a site that's been dugg to death (as in this case), so has the mirror (as in this case).
- soupisgoodfood, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you find black text on a white background too bright, then your screen is too bright (you do know how to adjust that, right?). Whenever I read light text on dark a background, then look around my room, I see lines. I never get this with dark text on light a background. I'm not sure where this "light on dark is better on they eyes" myth started, but tradition and my own expereince says the opposite.
- spyrochaete, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2In a page layout college class my professor gave a great bit of advice about kerning (the space between characters):
He said to imagine water pouring between each letter, and that a properly kerned typeface would have equal amounts of water pouring between each letter. - techobo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"A general good rule of thumb is 2-3 alphabets in length, or 52-78 characters (including spaces)." this applies to newspapers obviously in that they use the multiple column design.
Umm, the next time you see a newspaper with 52-78 characters per line, you let me know. When working with multiple columns, 40-50 characters is a better average.
- Robert Bringhurst, The Elements of Typographic Style (I know you don't like that book so, take that as you will)
"microsoft wont formally release their ui findings"
I guess you just shot yourself in the foot then eh? If they don't release their findings, it means you either work for Microsoft, have psychic powers, or you are making facts up... again.
"people dont read in blocks of text."
...wow
"and i wont be responding to this bc like i said, arguing with you guys is like arguing with a brick wall."
I guess this is for the best. You can stop embarrassing yourself. - sembetu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21 step to great typography:
Get "The Elements of Typographic Style" by Robert Bringhurst.
Read. Rinse. Repeat. - somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Well, that's an interesting version of what I originally wrote...
Ah, ***** it. - techobo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I always have it on my desk at work. I havn't found a better book on typography.
- techobo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The tip is not wrong. There is usually more than one way to fix a problem. Are you suggesting that you move to a medium or demi weight for body copy?
- bigtomrodney, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"Your users will thank you..."
Eh,Typo Dude. :p - 6TON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2When did kerning become tracking? I know it is used by interface designers but it just odd to me why the naming has changed. Does anyone know why?
- aCiD2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I would have loved to read this but... the site is down, and the digg mirror only copied the first page (naturally) - any other ideas?
- bonaldi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2He's wrong about reversed text. You have to increase the font weight, otherwise the black ink smudges on the press. I can't get to the site now, but I don't remember him saying this was specifically for the web, and if not, that tip's wrong.
- Topher06, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Service Temporarily Unavailable
The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later."
I think they can flush this out a little more and maybe provide a little more information, like when exactly is later. And what is the problem, downtime or capcity issues? And saying server unable to service seems a little redundant, that is the point of a server, to service requests. This is, after all, an article about better typeography. - Veretax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1+dugg site seems to be down. ++digg effect ! :P
- Bennethon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Service Temporarily Unavailable
The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. - bitcloud, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1There are things which are intuitively appealing... perhaps some "typographers" want to analyse these things and help other people grasp them, but by no means are there "rules" specific to this medium.
Having said that, I could masturbate all day about what a great typographer I am, but it's not going to change the heavily & easily read army manuals from being printed in courier new (or whatever) and digg comments which are read daily by thousands without problem, from being kerned by the XP/'nix/OSX system defaults.
(by the way, I am a designer by trade) - AndroidIQ, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The NDDB rools for n00bs
- thepisstaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I guess if you know the rules you can break them. It is just that I was surprised how small the author's own website text was. It sort of became easier on the eye, after a bit of head swaying and eye stretching, but when I expanded the text size in the browser, the font looked just as attractive and it became VERY legible.
As for what the rules are for numbers of characters per line, his numbers sound right, but where does the usabilty guru Neilsen guy stand? Doesn't the text from his articles span a whole page? - meuserj, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I can do it in one step:
Step 1: Learn LaTeX
Seriously, if you want an easy way to create beautifully typeset documents, LaTeX is the way to go. I used it for papers all through college, and have had teachers marvel over them. Its syntax can be a little weird, and it's very difficult to get used to the presentation and data separation when you are so used to word processor's WYSIWYG paradigm, but it is very much worth it. - mltn37713, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I thought it was an interesting read, but then, i'm not an expert.
However, it was useful to me. - crysys, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Re: Sleepyboy
"Calling people "asshats" isn't necessarily how to win people over to your argument."
But what if it's an accurate description? - madpie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1deleting myself. never mind.
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