What is Digg?96 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+64On the last point I might agree with his clients. If I order a website to be designed by a designer, then I don't think it's outrageous to think that it might actually include HTML & CSS.
- MrUnderbridge, on 10/12/2007, -2/+43"The point is really that you shouldn't be stuck doing work that isn't discussed. If you need coding done, say it."
They need a functioning web site, and it's hard to imagine it doing the things they want without actually, you know, coding it. It's like if I take my broken car to the mechanic and he draws me a picture of how to fix it and refers me to someone who will actually do the nuts and bolts.
If I'm a client, and I contract you to make a web site, that's what I want - a functioning site. Not a picture of a web site, an actual damned site. If you say you'll give me a web site, then you're discussing the work necessary. I'm pretty sure any client expecting a web site design will expect more than photoshop files. Most won't care if you use PHP or python, but it better work when you deliver it. Otherwise, you're a graphic artist. Don't claim that you make web sites. - drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -0/+37The average joe out there looking into having a website built for their company has no clue what the difference is between a coder and a designer. Instead of playing with the wording of the contract, you should EXPLICITLY say that you will not perform any coding. Hiding the fact that your not coding and then playing word games with a contract make you look shady as hell.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+34This article is just an excuse for the author to put his photo and show the world how hip and cool he is. Lame.
- specialedd, on 10/12/2007, -4/+32
The general population does not understand the distinction. They just want a working site, not a pretty design.
This guy "designs" sites that are just mock ups? Useless. I would never hire this joker and would work to blacklist him. - Saint3k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+25I was offered a web design contract recently, but had to turn it down. The customer assured me that he didn't have the money to pay me upfront, but that he would pay me as soon as his business became profitable.
Yeah, sure you will.
Here's an idea - how about you build me a house. I'll move into the house and try to get a job so that I can afford it. Assuming I can find a high enough paying job, and all of my other expenses have been covered, I'll pay you for it. Good deal, right? Go smoke another one. - billizm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24I agree with all but the last one. I am sorry, but any good web designer NEEDS to be able to code in HTML, CSS, and Javascript is helpful. That is part of "web design".
Wikipedia will back me up on this. =)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_design - simonpainter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24Shouldn't this article be renamed "Five reasons to get a professional design company to do your site and not some kid who is barely old enough to be contractually bound by agreed terms and conditions"?
- atarix64, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23Dude,
You can't make a deal for designing a site and NOT mention the fact that you won't code it this is dishonest.
Thats like buying a car without an engine. Besides any good designer will know how to at least use a wysiwyg and slice their psd's, if you can't code it yourself.
Not to mention creating large psd's is oldschool time to get up on the web2.0 ;) (CSS, XHTML, XML, ETC). - Pyrogen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19I'll be honest. In every contract I put out, the client understands that we will do coding, graphics design, and website layout. This guy separates layout and coding. If someone wants to pay for that, great! But eventually, if he forgets to mention that he's only doing layout and giving out .psd files, then his client stream will dry up.
- canti32, on 10/12/2007, -8/+26I don't know what you guys are talking about. No websites these days use coding. That's a web 1.0 feature.
/sarcasm - drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17I'm still trying to figure out how this mook is selling web designs without a few shell pages to display in. How can you work in a business developing web sites and NOT know such basic things has HTML and CSS.
- msgyrd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16I can understand a designer not doing backend work with databases, but if you're a website designer, you should have some ability to create CSS and HTML. I know design is an important factor in retaining site visitors, but if I was contracting a designer, I would choose a designer that could hand over some code with the design mockups in a heartbeat over this guy.
There's a reason we call them starving artists, they don't actually want to work. - neoknight, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17Graphic Designer - PSD
Web Designer - PSD. With HTML/CSS at the very least.
Web Developer - MySQL, PHP and Script.aculo.us, plus other Ajaxy stuff...
Moral of the story learn some HTML/CSS - chris4buffy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18That's the gayest thing I ever heard!
If I want a website and you say you can make me one, I want it to work! I'm sure there are many people who don't even know what HTML is, so they're hardly going to ask for it are they?! - vertinox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16@expresso
Yeah, I'm one of those clients who require coding with design. Doing Photoshop mockups is one thing, but if you can't at least tie that in with CSS or PHP tied into SQL then the design is worthless. - simonpainter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15This kid is not a coder though. He paints pretty stuff in photoshop which is then passed to a web developer to turn into reality.
- TylerLemieux, on 10/12/2007, -11/+26The point is really that you shouldn't be stuck doing work that isn't discussed. If you need coding done, say it.
- Lacero, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20Been there, done that. What stops you from turning down a client is your ***** studio lease needs to be paid and the credit card you used to buy that Wacom tablet is maxed out. In a perfect world, you can turn down clients, but some schmuck across the street will gladly take the client.
Unless you become well establish, you will have to suck down on crappy clients. Remember to swallow. - Pyrogen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11"Well, when you become profitable, then we'll be happy to make you a site."
- Vlatro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10• I don’t have any money, but this will get you some great exposure!
Nothing in life is free. The only clients who will give you good exposure are the ones who already know how to run a successful business. Those in that position: A) have the money to pay. B) expect a written estimate upfront.
• I’m not sure what I want, and I won’t pay if I don’t like it.
Again he is correct here. Anyone who even suggests you may not be paid has no intention of ever paying you. At this point, they are not even open to a professional discussion, so waste no time in telling them to ***** themselves.
• I have a few other designers in mind, can you create a few mock-ups and maybe I’ll pick you?
This is not that uncommon. Inform your potential client that you will have to be reimbursed for your time. Direct them to other sites you've created, or a portfolio. Never work for free. Never give them a functional sample either. Rasterized, visibly water-marked PDF files are fine for samples. Any custom artwork or logos you've designed for them should have a copyright symbol printed over them, and a separate page reserving your right to the art should be signed before anything is handed over.
• I’m not comfortable with a contract/up-front deposit, can we go without it?
The best response is "I'm not comfortable with not getting paid". Speak their language. Deposits & contracts are the rule, rather than the exception. Any professional will require these, if your customer in naive enough to believe otherwise, you're in for some headaches. That doesn't mean you have to refuse the job. You can bend here. Arrange a daily payment schedule. They risk less if they change their minds later, you still get paid for your time.
• I thought this was supposed to be coded? I’d like my money back.
Money back... No. Coded... Yes. Always be upfront with your customer about exactly what you're providing. If you're a graphic designer, tell them that and inform them they will need someone to handle database creation, PHP coding, security certificates, etc. Dumping a PSD file on a company is shady. They may not even use photoshop. Give them a file they can't open and watch how quickly the put a stop payment on that check of yours. Moreover, if you are simply designing graphics, tell them they will need the code first. How many form fields are on a given page? Will they have a Blog, forum, or wiki that needs skinning? What languages & accessibility features will be supported. All those things play a crucial role in the layout, and thus the graphics. If code is an afterthought, you've wasted their time, your time, their money, and tarnished your name and credibility. - honestlywhagwan, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14great article. I hate when people try to commission you assuming you're just trying to get some "exposure." That ***** can be so ridiculous.
- TylerLemieux, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Man, I really messed up the description, must've not payed much attention.
- 1310nm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8lol .PSDs? ANYONE I have worked with over the last 3 years would completely balk at the fact that the site isn't coded and all you're handing over is pictures.
- Pyrogen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Till he works with a real company that sues him for it.
- Cyber_Akuma, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Yeah, the last one about coding confused me too.
I mean, I am a person that builds and troubleshoots computers as a hobby (as I'm sure many others on Digg do as well, if not professionally) and if I had gone to this guy and asked him to make me a website, I would have expected code. Very very few people would know this, and not explicitly stating that he will not code will confuse a lot of people.
True, he might be able to force some people to pay up because of the contact, but he will not spread good word about himself that way. "Yeah, don't use this guy, I paid him $XXXX for a website and all he did was create a mockup in photoshop!" I have seen many services that explicitly state if they will or will not do something that people normally expect done/not done. Not stating this knowing 99% of people will expect this is just trying to be shady.
Not to mention that somewhere down the road some big-wig might be annoyed at this and actually sue, chances are they will have a lawyer that spends more for his lunch break than this guy makes in a year.
If he is not going to code he should explain that in the contract, and if he refuses to then that is proof he is trying to deceive people. It would get rid of this "where is the code?" problem, generate less angry customers, and avoid a possible future legal battle. - TheSkinsFactory, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Here's a few notes from my experience dealing with clients. I've numbered them to coincide with the author's comments:
1. I get this quite a lot. Unless its a Fortune 500 company, don't fall for this ruse. He's right, it is *****. Unless the site is seen by other industry people or by millions of people... get paid for your work. They're basically looking for a cheap solution and your time is worth money.
2. I don't get this that often. What i do get asked is "how many comps will we get?". Normally, I'll tell the client that we do not turn over the copyrights to unused marker comps. When we sell our services, we're selling a final deliverable, not ideas for our clients to go and hire a cheaper studio to flesh out at a later date. Any more than 3 comps is too much and you should be paid an hourly rate for any extra comp work. Remember, when you're working, that's time taken away from your life that you could be doing something else... so don't sell yourself short.
3. No matter who you are, at some point you will be asked for a proposal. Never create mock-ups for free. First, I refuse to audition for anyone, especially with the extensive portfolio we have up for the potential client to see. Second, your time is worth money. They have no right to ask you to do something for free other than giving them a RFP (Request for Proposal). If you do cave, make sure to sign a contract that says all marker comps are your property and you are in no way transferring the rights to this person/company. Protect yourself.
4. He's right. Unless it's a client like Microsoft or Disney, always get a non-refundable retainer up front and be smart... do NOT turn over your files until after you receive the final payment. An old mentor of mine once said " as soon as you turn over your work, you're at their mercy" and he was right.
5. This is what contracts/agreements are for. You should have it spelled out specifically in the agreement what you are responsible for delivering. This goes without saying. Because if you don't, you're going to experience what we in the design industry call - Scope Creep. This is where the job keeps getting bigger and bigger and your pay keeps going down. Look at it this way, if you budget a project at a certain amount of hours for a certain rate of pay and you end up taking twice as long to do it, then you're making half your rate. You MUST spell out what the deliverables are in the agreement. If you do you'll always be protected.
Here's something the author didn't cover... How much do you charge and how do you determine how much a project is worth? It's a tricky question. I've found a format that works for me, so i thought I'd share with you all:
Hourly Rate x Hourly Time Estimate = Flat Rate
We have a specific hourly rate. So when i get a company's project scope, i look it over, determine how long i think it will take to build it out from concept to creation, an estimate of time for changes the client may want, and the time it takes to clean up and organize the final files. Clients hate billable hours. For all they know, you could be charging them while you surf for porn or read Digg. By offering them a flat rate that is based on an hourly rate, you put their mind at ease.
I've been doing this for over 6 years for own company. All of these methods work. Nothing flawless, but what I've told you is pretty solid in terms of advice. These are just my opinions and what works for me, may not work for you. You have to understand, because of our portfolio and client list, I'll have an easier time demanding these things, than someone who is just starting out. The last piece of advice I'll impart on you is to have an attorney. I know they're expensive but they're worth it. Have them do a template Work Agreement for you. If you have to, increase the price of the project to compensate for having to pay for the attorney.
Regards,
Jeff Schader
CEO | The Skins Factory
4. - darushin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7You know I kind of wonder how successful of a web designer he is. First off I am a web developer and designer. Second I am also an executive at a company so I can see both sides of the coin when it comes to matters like this.
First as a Executive I know if I approach a designer and the first thing he says is "give me %50 just for the privilege of looking at my work" I am usually going to apologize to him for wasting his time and goto to the next one on my list. I have no problem signing confidentiality agreements and no reuse agreements to see what your vision is for my requirements is, but giving you 20-50k (our typical design price is 40-100k) for what amounts to a brainstorming paper is stupidity defined IMHO.
Second, as a designer, if you are concerned about losing your work then get a good lawyer and write up a contract that prohibits this. Require your clients to sign said contract to view your ideas. This is really no different then a NDA used by other industries to protect their IP and products. Remember your work is your IP and if you are to cheap to hire a good lawyer to write up a NDA contract for it, then you are inviting people to screw you. - heptahedron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6#6. Don't over-promise. If you don't have the time or skills to take the job, don't do it. If you miss deadlines, go over-budget, or deliver crap, you won't get repeat business or good word-of-mouth.
The time it takes to convince a new client who doesn't know you (with all the proposals, looking at portfolios, competitive bids, negotiations, etc.) is long and arduous. (It's very easy to spend 20-40 hours of labor on the upfront schmoozing and proposing to a new client). But if the client knows they can trust you, the time it takes to get another job is short and painless. Doing a good job makes getting the next job much much easier. - anagoge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Just out of interest, what did your client do as a profession? It'd be nice if he was maybe a car dealer or something.
"Hey that's fine if you can't pay me. I'll be round to your dealership in the morning to pick up my free Mercedes."
Of course that line of thinking doesn't work as well if all he sells is carpets. - SteelChicken, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6more blog spam stolen from somewhere else.
the internet grows suckier by the day. - Tarnum, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7This guy is 17 : )
- Egoist, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5He also missed a point: The personality of the client
You're not going to be able to work well with 100% of the people looking to have work done. If you suspect trouble from the getgo and you have enough incoming work that it won't affect you to lose the project, pass it on. Case in point, one guy contacted me two days ago with a bunch of support questions about his site. I politely told him that if he wants my consulting services, he would have to hire me. He then sent back a scathing email about my terrible business practices and how I'm trying to "nickel and dime" him because I should answer simple questions for free (they weren't as simple as he believed). His last sentence stated that he's off to find a better freelancer, but I wouldn't have accepted the project even if it was still on the table. Pushing off one guy that wasn't even willing to pay for my services from the start was the best business decision I had made that day. - chadu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4HTML isn't code. It's markup.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13This is about HTML? I thought this was about something COMPLETELY different.
- Pyrogen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5http://www.mindember.com/about/
- anagoge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5What's the link to your site, darushin, I'd be interesting in seeing your company's portfolio.
- Morelia, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5ditto ...or what to look for in a competent Web design firm. It is obvious that this contributor's post was meant to redirect Digg readers to his Site in the hopes of generating a little exposure and business (or blog spamming as already noted). Not really needed if your work speaks for itself. But, I have to admit ... I'd rather see a 17 y/o working out of his bedroom doing something productive ... and getting some lesson's learned along the way ..... rather than hanging out at the raves all night smokin and drinkin with his homies.
- Sabarok, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I have nothing against the practice or position of someone who makes designs in graphics and someone else turns it into HTML. I've worked with people who are amazing artists and come out with great designs and layouts, but they couldn't code HTML to save their life. I also wouldn't want them to waste their time doing that. As a coder, I'm usually the one who turns their designs into HTML. I prefer it that way, since I can make the HTML nice and clean, and also suitable for templates. Also, the skill needed for the really great CSS coders, there are very few who can both do the great designs and the great CSS, it can be cheaper to get two people and split the load.
For the WYSIWYG editors, I worked with a guy who came up with some nice designers in Dreamweaver, but the HTML code was horrible. At the time, we were using perl scripts with HTML templates, and trying to use the HTML in our site was breaking the design. I took his look, rewrote it from scratch and produced the same look with about a fifth of the HTML code, and optimized to work as a template.
However, it should be made VERY clear in advance that the designer is only going to create a PSD. The job title of Web Designer is used very ambigously and applies to both pure designers and coders, and most people don't know the difference. There's nothing wrong with the practice, very often I prefer it, but it must be known in advance. I'd be very annoyed if I thought I was getting full HTML & CSS, and all I got was a PSD. Contracts are the embodiement of the intent of both parties, if one of the parties isn't aware of something, it's deceptive, especially since most people going to a freelancer for a website doesn't fully understand everything, and wouldn't know the difference between a designer and a programmer. - Pyrogen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5None. He only generates .psd files, content is on you.
- Morelia, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4There is a huge difference between a professional design firm that has a multidisciplinary team that works together in an integrative fashion (design & layout, usability & accessibility, programming, content integration and management, database integration, audience/market analysis, competitive sites survey, etc.) and someone making PSD files for conceptual design or simply mockup purposes (or an ad banner or logo).
The days of garish, bloated, cut up jpg/gif files stuffed into awkward tables is long dead anyway. Today it is CSS type and layout, AJAX, PHP, MySQL, etc. that drive the process. Design is important, but more about layout and usability and color organization. Even the leading site for Web designers, A List Apart, is testament to this: http://alistapart.com/ - harrier666, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I can't design to save my ass, and my designer can't code to save her ass. But when we sell a webpage design, we do the whole package. The reality is that a big part of our job is putting the technology in layman's terms, not expecting the client to know what CSS or Coding is. I agree with most of the points but the last one gets under my skin a bit. If he has had multiple potential clients argue the point, the communication flaw is on his end. I get the feeling he doesn't want to be more up front as he will lose clients, and he'd rather ask forgiveness (and payment) then permission.
That said, explaining the technology is a bitch. One of my early clients, before I learned what this article tells us, wanted an imagemap for their home page and wanted it used as an 'enter' page. In the same breath they demanded they be 'number 1' in google (no search terms defined either, just 'number 1' so I guess if you search flight school or monkey porn, you'd get them.) They wanted our technical expertise but they didn't actually want us to tell them why they were morons. I ended up creating the page as asked. In the end, they were upset when they weren't 'number 1' on google, and paid me only half. Dicked! - chris4buffy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4...or passed on to the client who says "WTF?"
- nimawin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4lol
- billizm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3A good way to make sure you get payment with a server-side coded web application is to deliver the project with at least 1 compiled module which is key to the app's functionality. Deliver the project as a demo of the final version, but without the code for the binary. In the compiled module, put a time bomb that will expire in say, 2 to 4 weeks. When you are paid in full and ready to deploy, then simply remove the time bomb code and re-build.
- TylerLemieux, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Seems like I've stirred up quite a controversy on the subject of uncoded design. I do make it clear to clients that I don't include coding in my work; I also refer them to some great coders that can take my design and make it into something useable. The point is that some clients try to get free work out of you even though the work was never agreed to.
- akatherder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3That is certainly true of someone who bills them self as "Graphical Design and ONLY Graphical Design". There is definitely a market for such people. But the fact that #5 on his list details his clients' surprise and disgust, means that he wasn't clear about his deliverable up front because he was afraid they would say "WTF? I want a website not a picture."
- TokenUser, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I’ve been through my fair share of clients, (they all think I suck)
well over a hundred successful transactions in the past two years for that matter, (jut look at my eBay rating!!)
and I’ve come to know when a project is worth taking on or not (is there enough Ramen noodles in the pantry).
As a freelance designer (would you like fries with that),
I know that time was of utmost importance (can't let your order go cold).
Knowing when to drop a potential project can mean hundreds (and in some cases, thousands) of dollars (umm, pesos)
, not to mention precious time (its cutting into me Levelling up on WoW).
Now, I share my knowledge with you! (don't order fish on Mondays).
Phewww ... thank god for sage advice. You can make a living as a freelance designer creating PICTURES of websites???? Perhaps I should become a freelance auto designer ... I can draw cars. - Morelia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Please ... I think the distinction that you meant was that it is a markup language rather than a programming language (which is compiled) ... but both deal with code and coding.
- drmangrum, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@harrier
The moment they mentioned a 3rd party you should have stopped. If the client can't understand that you have no power over google rankings, you do not want to work for them. I find it hard to believe they didn't understand that, sounds to me like they were looking for an easy way to pay less for the site. -
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