What is Digg?60 Comments
- tHePeOPle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14my mom says there's alotta smart people in MIT.
- drwurm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Your mom goes to college.
- masamunecyrus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10http://education.mit.edu/starlogo-tng/drawer.jpg
Is that Sonic? And the Ninja Turtles? And where do I recognize that bunny from... - Cone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@Cheney:
I use Blender as well, but you realize that this software is about modeling SITUATIONS and EVENTS not meshes, right?
This is about behavior simulation and stuff like that, unlike Blender.
"While this version holds true to the premise of StarLogo as a tool to create and understand simulations of complex systems"
Please stop making us Blender-heads look like idiots.
P.S.: Some of your diamonds fall through the plane. Whoops? - xtracto, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9People, do not be ignorants.
First, this program is used to model complex systems. The "model" word does is not what you think it is (e.g. modeling 3D scenarios or objects). This is used by scientists to model systems in which more than one entity interacts.
It is broadly used in the scientific community for Agent based modeling. This is, modeling a system as agent interactions.
There are several of these modeling/simulation frameworks, personally I use RepastJ which gives you the benefit of Java language. This, joined with NetLogo are oriented to non computer scientists people (for example, Social Scientists, Ecologists, etc) who want to create simulations of their agent based models.
The graphical programming is an interesting approach as, before that, the way to program the logic of the agents was using the Logo language which is one of the easiest languages to program in. But even though, there are a lot of non CS that get freaked out when they listen the term "programming language" so this may help them.
I agree with Sp1k3d in that there is no Unix/Linux version. I myself are in Fedora now and would have loved to test it.
The 3D graphical representation of the model is just a gimmick in my opinion. Of course that gimmick may very well be useful for the less abstract brains of non CS people. - bleonard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10StarLogo TNG???
StarTrek TNG???
I like it! - Manhigh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I have the same issue with applescript. Its tries to be like spoken english, when in reality human languages are very arbitrary and not very rigorous, mathematically.
Engineers are generally math oriented people, who would pick up a language faster if it's based more in mathematics than grammar. - ozguralaz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7For tutorial
http://education.mit.edu/starlogo-tng/tutorial-overview.htm - MacGeekGuy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10By the same token, CheneyTheDick... not everyone feels comfortable with the same program. Different UI styles appeal to different people. Look at the Win/Mac/Linux debate. Different things make sense to folks... it doesn't have to be one program for everyone.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"Graphical Programming"? Uuuugghhh! Anybody ever heard of VSE (Visual Simulation Environment)? A professor at Virginia Tech wrote it many years ago. He tried to make it easy to code by having the syntax look more like a natural language. Commands looked like:
tell [car] to [drive:left{50/meters}]
It was the hardest language to program in, and it's no surprise that nobody bought it. But Professor Balci was determined that the reason it failed was because "engineers don't understand object oriented programming." So he made his CS students use it because "it would help us learn OOP". Yeah, if you're a CS senior graduating in 2005 who doesn't know OOP.... There are some serious problems....
My point is, gimmicky programming languages don't work. Making it easier for a newbie to understand is good, but don't forget that some of your users might have actual programming experience too. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5This program looks extremely dirty and revolved around turtles. I don't think that I'll touch it, but I'll just keep it on my computer in case. Like Blender, and Illustrator, and Toon Boom. Things I don't really want, but need for some reason.
- pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@ everyone here
Your criticism would make more sense if this software were intended to do something similar to what Blender, Maya, and friends do. It is not. It's not for creating polymodels; it's for modeling *events*. For example, one of the tutorials makes a bunch of turtles run around and infect each other, simulating an epidemic.
In conclusion, RTFA. - DangerStevens, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4My degree is in Linguistics. I found it interesting that, to describe language, we used exclusively mathmatics and set theory. Using a computer language that was anything like human language would have gotten us nowhere.
So it's not just engineers - the languages that are simple to understand are the ones that represent concepts simply, not the ones that try to appear similar to what we already know.
http://multipartysystem.com - DannoHung, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Nifty. I used a Logo variant to try and model an emergent system for a Philosophy/CS class one semester. The system didn't turn out so well, but Logo was definitley a good tool to model it in.
- dsg123456789, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The colors change fairly frequently. And trust me, you do not want to see the source. Lastly, it _does_ run on *nix, or at least it did at some point, because the libraries definitely exist; however, the developers are 50/50 windows and mac users, so *nix gets left behind. This program isn't meant to compete with Maya, it is meant to make programming simulations accessible to everyone, even those who have never had programming experience.
P.S. I have been on the StarLogo dev team for the past month - Bradl3y, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5The bunny reminds me of Jazz Jackrabbit
- dsg123456789, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3There are video tutorials at:
http://education.mit.edu/starlogo-tng/tutorial-videos/
They explain how to do basically everything you could want to do to get started.
By the way, I noticed some of you were digging down because it is too simple/easy/not powerful enough. I think that you'll find that, for agent based modelling, this program can get the job done. Secondly, the target audience is kids in middle and high school as well as their non-CS-educated teachers. We are trying to bring things that were previously restricted only to CS people to the masses.
Think of it like Ubuntu minus the expandability (although a major extension mechanism is slated for addition in the next 3 months). We want to bring programming, designing, and modelling to everyone. Once they get it, they can be psyched about it, Johnny will be able to program, and good things will happen. So we hope. (and please, don't attack/flame the Ubuntu comment. take it as praise of a system that brought arcane technology [linux] to the masses, just as we hope to do) - neuropsychguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You mean like this?
http://www.apple.com/trailers/wb/teenagemutantninjaturtles/ - nayr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I've found ruby a much better one to understand. everything is an object, and it has (almost) anything you need in it... only thing missing is n-arrays!
- paularms, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Graphical Programming sucks. It is one of the hardest things to work with because you have to find the command you need or the statement, click+drag and place it on the screen. It would be so much quicker to just type if(foo) then(bar) than search for that damn 'if' statment graphic.
"Removing the Syntax Barrier" = limiting the speed and efficiency of writing an application/whatever. - rac3r5, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2wow.... someone who actually understand the merits of this program. Agent based modelling is the key word people. When I was learning about computer simulations while getting my degree we used a program called Arena which ws quite expensive and used 2D models. Something like this can be quite useful, especially if I want to show a future employer I understand computer simulation concepts and statistics.
- bkdb9, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Starfox? Maybe?
- kimos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2So, looking at the screenshots there seems to be a heavy emphasis on color coded blocks of information.
I'm colorblind. I wonder if I would be able to use this or not... - Hiker, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8And sorry to break it to you sunshine... but Blender, tho ok, is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR from "Maya quality". That cemment tells me you've DEFINITELY not used Maya very much at all!
- Hiker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3rockingtom:
I've already seen Elephants Dream and I was waiting for somebody to say EXACTLY what you said. Now how about you go and watch the dozens and dozens of films where Maya was used (the LOTR series, anything Pixar does, Fight Club..... hell, even tho it's so hated, go watch Final Fantasy: Spirits Within for something 100% CG) and see how Elephants Dream compares.
But what you see is somewhat irrelevent anyway because the renderer plays a factor in what ends up on screen. What you need to judge, as far as the actual app goes, is how robust it is, the workflow within the app, quality of modelling toolbox, how well it handles high polycount scenes, rigging, animation, how well it integrates into a pipeline, etc. There are just too many factors involved when comparing 3d apps. You can't make any kind of useful judgement unless you have a bit more than casual experience with the app. And you ABSOLUTELY cannot make any kind of judgement whatsoever based on having only seen something produced with whatever app it is. Any opinion you voice is completely and utterly meaningless (you can only judge how good/successful the film was).
And cheney, whether you like it or not (and I can tell you're a Blender fan) it's not "nearly as good". And don't sit there thinking I have no f'n idea what I'm talking about because I have 8 years experience in 3d having used quite a range of apps (Max, Maya, Lightwave, XSI AND even Blender) so I'm somewhat informed (one job I had was creating particle simulations for a company here using Blender).
And the reason I mention all of this ISN'T to try and big-note myself. I'm merely mentioning my own experience to back up what I'm saying. So mod me down if you like but do it based on something OTHER than "he thinks he's WETA" (my personal website has some of my work on it but I don't want to post it here in case it gets killed by the diggeffect) - Novagenesis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I did research for college on the original Starlogo. It's a great educational system, imo. A 3d varient can only be moreso in keeping childrens' interest
- pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yeah. Now explain how that observation is at all on topic. This is software for modeling *systems*, not for creating artwork.
- Hades32, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1http://education.mit.edu/starlogo-tng/download/preview3/StarLogoTNGSetup.exe
- Subcranium, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1>>It has large features for modelling.
How large are they? - klopfer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1One of the features of this new version is Typeblocking (http://education.mit.edu/starlogo-tng/searchandtype/searching-and-typeblocking.htm). This allows you to quickly enter blocks by typing instead of clicking and dragging. But it provides users with the ability to structure the code for both programming and reading others' code.
- vbsurfer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@at everyone here.
I am very proficient with both maya and 3dsmax. After spending about 2 hours with this program, I come to the conclusion that this is a really ***** alternative for doing any modeling, texture mapping, or controlling event behaviors. - ReaperUnreal, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1StarLogo TNG:
Warp 6 Mr. Crusher, Engage! - rapier8, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2might as well go with Blender 3D for a free 3d modeling application.
- rockintom99, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Hiker: Go watch elephant dreams, and then say that again. Blender can do just as good as maya. The only real limiter is your skill.
- kimos, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I had to read the description about four times before I figured out it wasn't about Star Trek.
- robertmf, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Yes. It's misleading.
- ErnstHot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Graphical programming has it's (niche) advantages, look at stuff like vvvv, max/msp. puredata, reaktor, etc. But those colors! And it looks rather clunky too.
- mhearne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yes, I've noticed that just about anytime a program is ported from Windows to Linux, that the programmer seems stuck on assigning static libraries. They don't seem to know how to assign "library.lib-0.1 _Or Greater_".
For the longest time, yahoo messenger would work on my Mandrake machine for about a week, until I ran system updates. I think they finally caught on, although I don't use it anymore.
Porting from Linux/Un*x to Windows/Mac seems to be much more efficient. I think I'll leave it alone until they get it straightened out. - NSMike, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6Hey now, NOBODY gets to use the TNG acronym except Star Trek.
- vbsurfer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@MacGeekGuy
I take it you have no prior experience in professional computer animation or 3d modeling/UV mapping work.
mac guy. - McNubbins, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Very nice, thanks for the tutorials as well. I've only ever used Caligari's software so I'm pretty much a novice, though this looks interesting.
- wintermute1974, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I read the FAQ, the about me page, the first tutorial, and skimmed the documentation, and I'm still confused:
What does this thing do? - Sonic84, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1This reminds me of the program Alice, http://www.alice.org/ another 3D "learn to program" application. My college intro to programming class utilized Alice, but starlogo, at a glance, looks easier to understand..
- vbsurfer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2wow. Get out of the college your in if their teaching you that *****.
- rockintom99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I *have* used blender quite a lot, and i dont see how you seem to think it is so bad. Then again, i dont really like the Maya UI. It's all what you are used to.
For that matter, i prefer 3ds Max. - angler8890, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Thanks for your post!!
I don't think that I'll touch it, but I'll just keep it on my computer in case. Like http://www.ggsg.info/sitemap.htm Blender, and Illustrator, and Toon Boom. Things I don't really want, but need for some reason. - vbsurfer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2I dont think you get the point. Maya has so much more going on than blender... I dont even have to explain myself. Only diggs will tell.
@pauldonnelly
Like I said. I take it you have no prior experience in professional computer animation or 3d modeling/UV mapping work. - Sp1k3d, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3It's not open source yet it's an MIT project, buried for being lame! It doesn't even run on *nix!
- Switch22, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Wild E. Cayote?
- Wedge1212, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1yes i did the same damn thing
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