What is Digg?101 Comments
- omenmedia, on 10/12/2007, -5/+116why is mulling around someone else's stylesheet such a surprise? examining the source code and CSS of well-made sites is often a great way to learn techniques and nifty tricks that, as a developer, you may not have thought of before - especially when you need umpteen CSS hacks to get style sheets to work correctly in IE!
Often while looking at sites, I might see something in their design or layout thats out of the ordinary and think "how the bloody hell did they do that?" The CSS and source is only a few clicks away. - firefusion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+30.StupidIEWidthHack is the second hack.
- ezweave, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27Not everyone at MS is a tool. And they all don't write IE.
This is the most fundamental problem with MS (as Woz and others point out): innovation is driven from the top. While MS may be filled with gifted developers and designers, their ideas don't really matter as much as "Teh Bill"'s vision.
And that is why Bill-bo is a bad software man.
Oh and this is funny. Not exactly news, but still funny. - deut, on 10/12/2007, -7/+24Exactly omenmedia, good point. Some of my finest work has come from digg.
- longman2g, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21It seems that microsoft should just give up trying to update internet explorer. Start over. Do it right. And once you've got a good base to work on, then update things to make it work better, not to work right.
- Enchirito, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18i think the surprise is that microsoft is publicly calling their own browser 'Stupid'.
omenmedia you're right though, css files are public, not internal, and should be coded as such. Whoever wrote this css probably knows this, but named it that anyway. I don't know about you, but i find that pretty funny. - jcronkhite, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Regardless of the fact that if Microsoft does fix the problems with CSS and other well known issues, IE7 will most likely not have a great impact. They're playing "catch up" with all of the other browsers. Not to mention that it doesn't look like it will be extensible. I think the success of FireFox can be summarized by it's extensions support. Microsoft will likely build in features of more popular extensions that the Mozilla community offers, but they will always forget to include what they think most users don't need. Leaving the rest of us using FireFox, Opera, or Safari. It's too late Microsoft!
- usefulidiot, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11IE7 isnt written from scratch... Its just a patched up version of 6
Rewriting internet explorer is highly unfeasible, due to the fact that soo many business apps rely on its current functionality to function, as well on its activex implementations - jimphelps, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Better headline perhaps?
Note to self: A good headline is good, an excellent headline is, well, excellent! - jmacdonagh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7From reading the Mini Microsoft blog it really shows people that the engineers and developers behind Microsoft have some real problems with the software they create. They'd love to overhal it, but they're stifled by the horrible management.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10I am glad Microsoft is getting a taste of their own medicine...
- doublebackslash, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I would like to pose a question.
Why is MS developing a web browser still?
Firefox is growing by leaps and bounds, and things like CSS and XML, etc are better supported by it and other browsers.
IE is full of holes, and dos many things that are not standards compliant.
Why not give up and focus on making a better OS. They already have the centralized management of Users and computers down pat, and their server offerings aren't as bad as most think (but worse than they will admit, NOTE: I'm a Linux guy for the most part). Why bother with a browser?
Seems like a waste, or in the least a lot of duplicated effort. They must have a reason, what is to be gained by this? - jimphelps, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8It's never too late to change. That being said I agree with you Microsoft's 'closed' system will eventually fall to an open one, such as Firefox.
~A recent convert. - Brilhasti, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6saska: 'better' means 'correctly', or 'to W3C spec'. Which IE doesn't do well at all.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm pretty sure they're calling the hack stupid, not IE, but hey, you're free to distort it in any way you like.
- saska, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10It handles CSS quite well. Digg looks just fine in it.
I don't know about "better". Either it works, or it doesn't. - casiotone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4You mean a standard to follow like all these: http://www.w3c.org/ ?
- DennisLaumen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@wicketr:
Firefox 1.5's auto upgrade feature might be a reason to upgrade ;). - dioscaido, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Just like it was too late in the mid-nineties for IE to catch up with Netscape?
- brandonhines, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3At Mix 06 Bill Gates himself annouced that the Internet Explorer product cycle would be nine months to a year starting with IE7. The know that they're looking ground to Firefox and even more ground to Opera now that it is free.
- phill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Most of my customers will flat out refuse to use anything else but MSIE and MS Windows. Even after hours and hours of problems, they still refuse to use anything else. I end up programming a bunch of work-arounds and hacks just to get things working right in MSIE/Windows. Soon as my business gets moving, I'm going to flat out refuse to support MSIE/Windows.
- dashifen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The easiest way will probably be to use conditional comments (http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp). This will allow designers to link a specific stylesheet for IE 6 and earlier and a different one for IE 7 as necessary. I even use it now to keep my IE hacks out of the main stylesheets so that the .css files are standard compliant and then for IE only, I include a non-standard set of replacement rules as necessary.
- saska, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3My opinion boils down to this: how can they please an audience that says "damn it, I had to hack it!" and then says "damn it, now my hacks are obsolete because it's fixed!"?
- Brilhasti, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Why is MS developing a web browser still?
If for no other reason than having your brand in more places.
Why not give up and focus on making a better OS. They already have the centralized management of Users and computers down pat, and their server offerings aren't as bad as most think (but worse than they will admit, NOTE: I'm a Linux guy for the most part). Why bother with a browser?
Seems like a waste, or in the least a lot of duplicated effort. They must have a reason, what is to be gained by this?
It's almost certainly not the same team of people coding both, or I'd bet there's very little overlap.
Completely agree with your other points though. - Brilhasti, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Microsoft definitely doesn't develop all their own sites. Now whether or not that's the case with MS Connect, I don't know; but what better way for a web developer to poke a little fun at the much-hated IE?
- hchaudh1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I would be happy if IE7 would just rip out the windows widget based combo and list boxes. I work with divs and frankly its a pain to write code that works on every other browser and then waste an equivalent amount of time hacking my own code so that it also "works" on IE.
- dashifen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Now if they can just fix the scrollbars it'd be great. They implement CSS overflow: auto or overflow: scroll, but they didn't make sure that the scrollbars used for those two declarations don't overlap and hide the content that should be there. Here's hoping it's fixed in the full release because it hasn't been in the beta, to my knowledge. After the :hover pseudoclass for non-anchor tags, this is one of my biggest gripes about IE.
- Xopl, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I'm sure they'd ruin it.
- HarryHunt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The IE 7 Beta Preview 2 or whatever it's called is allegedly "feature complete", which means no additional fixes planned for the release version.
They did fix and improve quite a lot though:
* No more flickering when rolling over a Link that has a background image on it
* Remaining box model quirks fixed
* position: fixed supported
* :hover on all tags
* no-background/flickering-background bug on floating elements fixed
* "off by one pixel" bug fixed
* Alpha-transparent PNGs supported
Of course they could've gone a lot further, but it's a good start. And since they'll be releasing updated versions of IE several times a year now, there could be a lot more to come. - vagrantradio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That makes me laugh, good job microsoft.
- psyon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Yeah, sounds like their M.O. Just throw something out to the public, without checking the code.
- janit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Just incase someone missed it: http://janit.iki.fi/*****/stupidie.png
- TheGalacticFork, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5If I developed for IE, I would use Firefox too, since I'd know all the holes in IE(plus I'd be sick of looking at that evil E)....It's just like how if you work somewhere, you no longer like it(work at a paintball field and hate going to that field)
- Cybersqu, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Well, I’ve used IE7 beta, and there is not much improvement as far as CSS goes (but its still is a beta keep in mind)..
- My concern with MS fixing the IE bug is this..
If Microsoft fixes the CSS bugs in Internet Explorer, the web designers who have implemented IE-Hacks in their .CSS layouts would have to go back and re-do the portions with the hacks, and maybe even make 2 style sheets for IE; the hacked version, and the fixed version. This might require browser version checking. I as a web designer think that’s a lot of trouble to go through, since I’ve come accustomed to IE’s faults, and use IE-Hacks often.
I think it's a shame that IE (the worlds most popular browser) is so flawed. But, if we change how it works now, would it really make it easier or harder on currently operating sites? But on the other hand, we need a standard to follow, so all browsers render content in the same way.
Any opinions? - esteban, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Almost guarantee whoever made that page/mini site and the associated CSS is a contractor and has since long gone.
- Wireddd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"I don't like IE much either but I don't sit on Digg all day bitching about it.....Don't like it...don't use it."
Those of us that are web developers don't have the luxury of not using it because we don't like it. - Brilhasti, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yay for :hover on all elements. Can you say 100% javascript-free drops downs with any design you could imagine? I thought you could.
- aura, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is great. It's nice to know they suffer as much as the rest of us do.
- Xopl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I really don't understand why they need to be in the browser market, either. They suck at it. They can't read standards.
I don't see how there's any money to be made in giving a browser away for free.
Where there *is* money to be made by Microsoft would be to a "Port and Support" model for the proprietary IE crap, and making that stuff work as extensions / plugins to *good* browsers. As bad technology like Active X is slowly phases out, Microsoft can charge more and more to support it for people who are too stubborn to move on.
Making a new browser and giving it away for free ... I have got to imagine that COSTS money.
Man I'd dance a friggen jig if I didn't have to support IE for websites anymore. - Wireddd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@barok
There is nothing stupid about Hating IE. In fact that is pretty much what every web developer does everytime he works on a project. - dotwhynot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1>They caught up because they packaged IE without users consent
I agree that they are behind now, and that bundling obviously helped market share then, but.. using both IE3/4 and NS3/4 at the time, it is no question that MS made the by far better browser (especially by 4), mostly thanks to Netscape that helped killed themselves by producing an increasingly bloated buggy non-standard monster. It _was_ the better product that won, hard as that is to believe today :) - seanmc303, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2If a fork was driven into your hand and frequently agitated would you just complain once about it. For us web designers who actually have to deal with IE, I think there is every reason to trash talk trash. IE has wasted countless hours of my life trying to "work around" its many shortcomings. If M$ could compensate me for the pain it has caused me, I will stop bitching.
- hashkaran, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3good catch.
- Jugalator, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sounds like a terrible idea to me... Imagine how this place would look if people started following that practice. Using their own judgements to repost old stories over and over to "maybe get more dugg this time" or "maybe catch a wider audience".
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Portuguese / Brazilian : http://www.htk.com.br/noticia.php?noticia=379
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http://www.htk.com.br/ - Makoiyi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2IE just doesn't have half the function, speed, or reliability as firefox, safari, shirra, or camino...They should just start over, stop pushing just make another
- HarryHunt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Yeah, right. You have a browser with > 70% market share and you're gonna buy/license one that has 15%? Not gonna happen.
Most people on the net couldn't care less about how their browser renders CSS, how standards compliant it is, etc. To them, IE is just fine because all the websites they go to look great on IE.
Also, IE isn't half as bad as most people think it is and FF isn't exactly the answer to all problems either. - Furi0usBee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Obviously, the people who frequent digg haven't used IE since maybe 5.0, maybe earlier. However, I am surprised when I see just how many people use it, and don't use antivirus, anti-spy/adware software. Anyone who uses IE really deserves what they get. Dell and Gateway should install FireFox on all systems. Don't know if they do, but they should. Don't know how M$ would take that though.
Just think of all the problems that would go away if everyone stopped using IE. - moitio, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2They caught up because they packaged IE without users consent.
People are learning now. - DennisLaumen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3With their terrible web standards-integration they deserve all the negative press.
"The people" shouldn't shut up because a point was made once. If no change is made, keep complaining! -
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