What is Digg?58 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -12/+85The two comments above (dclowd and fetusface) are the saddest things I've read on Digg in a while.
The elitist of professionals who belittle even those who do 'design' as a hobby. The best answer I can give you is to pull your head out of your ass and realise that we all have to start somewhere. That's an answer to a question you _were_ asking.
Also, not everyone designs for 'clients'. People actually do this stuff for the love of it. Although I realise that might be hard for you to comprehend, not everyone does this stuff for money.
"Leave the designing to us please"
I do this for a living and a hobby, and quite frankly, you're pathetic and a shame to the industry. - EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -5/+33@resplence, fetusface, and dclowd9901
I hate elitism. Ideally a web site is designed by an entire team with lots of experience including programmers, graphic artists, writers, publicists, usability experts, and information architecture specialists. The reality is that few people have access to those kinds of resources, and it isn't necessary in most cases. Educating yourself should never be discouraged. How many of us are truly expert in more than one area of web design? Hell, even in areas I *am* an expert I sometimes find it helpful to be reminded of the basics. It's easy to get bogged down in details and forget the essentials.
I know it's frustrating that everybody and their brother with a copy of FrontPage thinks they're a web designer, but grow up and act a bit more professional. - EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25resplence: "I'm sorry, but you can't learn design from the internet. You simply can't. You need the dynamics of a classroom, you need pushy assignments and constant evaluation, you need peer support/criticism and good teachers."
You think there aren't plenty of great artists that have never had any formal education? What a snob! I don't want to put down going to school, because it can be a fantastic learning experience. I'm also not going to claim that reading articles on the Internet is a guaranteed way to become a great artist (of course neither is going to art school). There are other ways to learn than sitting in a classroom, however. While reading this article might not make you an expert overnight I guarantee you a person who tries to improve and educate themselves will produce better work than one who doesn't.
I suppose I'm not supposed to enjoy the painting shows on PBS or the cooking shows on the Food Network either because I'll never be Van Gogh or Wolfgang Puck. - letdowntourist, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25they are touching on something important though, this article was not written for them, it was written for hobbyists. in general, nearly all of these things are things i have to try before i consider myself "stuck." and that isn't elitism, its just things that i and others in the designing profession learn when they are going to school to do what we do. so yeah, you may get dug up for standing up for the little guy, but when i see something like this i'm hoping for something with insight, not to see things like "sketch something." so sorry for sounding "elitist."
- dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22"I know it's frustrating that everybody and their brother with a copy of FrontPage thinks they're a web designer, but grow up and act a bit more professional."
Okay, that's enough.
I wasn't chastizing anyone for utilizing this website, and I certainly am not an "elite designer." I, like many "professional designers," work for a small company with little to no supporting cast of co-workers, and even less support from the management.
I was trying to point out that, in the real world of design, the boring, "shove out product as fast as the boss can throw it at you"-world, you don't necessarily have time to tinker around with cute buttons or to "go looking for inspiration."
I know no one asked for it, but here's my advice for the real-world designer, not people with a little extra freetime:
1) Start with the most important aspect of the page. Does the client want their logo seen first? Their copy? Their favorite color? It doesn't matter what it is: start with that element and work from there. Your ideas will grow from it.
2) Prioritize. You're an artist, yeah. But 95% of the work you do has no room for art. People are trying to convey a message. Think of yourself as the ambassador of the company/client you're doing work for. It's up to you to make sure the company's/client's message is well-seen and well-understood. That's it.
3) If you're stuck, find something that you can associate with the client/company, and use it as a centerpiece. It can be as abstract as listening to tropical music while designing an ad/webpage for a Hawaiian restaurant, or as straight forward as asking what the client's favorite color is. If you get stuck, always go back to the basics. Always. They will guide you.
I expressed disinterest in this article because I felt like it didn't answer the design issues I run into. I certainly wasn't trying to "stick it to the little guy," or "keep them out of the industry." I'm just saying that maybe they should seek better advice. - ringo380, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19My favorite tip:
"Ever make a button that looks ridiculously awesome but just doesn't belong in your design? You put so much effort into your ridiculously awesome button, you'll go to great lengths to make it work. You'll bend the laws of space and time to make that goddamn button look right in your page.
Learn to let it go. Save the button and file it away. Although you've lost this battle, you'll soon have an arsenal of ridiculously awesome buttons you can use in designs later on."
Shockingly true, and plus points for the concept of an arsenal of ridiculously awesome buttons. - coldfusion055, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16http://duggmirror.com/design/8_Web_Design_Tactics_to_Help_You_When_You_re_Stuck/
- raindogmx, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18you just don't get it do you? the web was born long before there were any "web designers". we all want to be better in what we do, be it a profession or a hobby. please leave us be or we will be remembering you the next time you ask a noobie question about programming. i know you don't want everybody to know all of those professional secrets you learned in college -yes i'm being sarcastic- but I'm sure everybody (i.e.: myspace) could benefit from them, or should we restrict the web content creation to only certified designers? if you're that good and "elite" show some according greatness.
- crawfishsoul, on 10/12/2007, -6/+19"Maybe it's because I mostly work in print design, but I wasn't asking for the answers I was given in this article."
Read the headline, 2nd word. No, it does not say print. And fetusface, you're an elitist, snobby, asshat. Plain and simple. How's that for intelligent debate for you? - jaythree9, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14haha, i first read this as "8 Web Design Tactics to Help You When You Suck"
yum, whiteboard markers. - Litespeed, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12"arsenal of ridiculously awesome buttons" ... sounds like a quote from Zoolander.
- rattledaddy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14Everyone should mark this as spam to get the site banned (like all the other SEO sites). This is crap is wasting space in my series of Internets tubes. Yeah, it sucks because this is from seomoz which is a link-bait company. It is just catchy headlines with no content. Hell, they brag about that ***** on his stupid blog.
And regarding the MySuperProposal - Does that guy have no shame? Uses the marriage proposal to his girlfriend just to get more inbound links? For shame, linkspammer, for shame. - waynechng, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@resplence
"this kind of reinforcement doesn't encourage the enthusiast-professionals to evolve and get better."
How so? This article is just giving advice to anyone who's stuck in a design rut, that's all. You could be a pro or a enthusiast and walk away with new information or a reminder on techniques you already know.
The point being made in the article is that here are 8 things that you could do if you're having problems. Not, here are 8 things you could to pass yourself off as a professional designer. - actionscripted, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7My personal opinion is that if you went to school for design and are building web pages, you probably getting laughed at by real web professionals behind your back. I'm glad you learned how to use FrontPage/Dreamweaver in college, but web design is an entirely different animal.
Read tutorials. Learn how to position elements and work with CSS sprites. Get a god-damn clue. Don't just click around in some WYSIWYG editor in an effort to create "art" when your client's website and its visitors want a dialogue. Laying out a brochure and designing a web page are COMPLETELY different. If you feel otherwise, you need to learn a few things about the web. If you would ever consider using Flash just to use the font you "need", you're missing the point completely.
I've worked with 10+ "graduate" designers, have freelanced for nearly seven years (web), and have been at my current job now for nearly three (also web). Most degree-holding designers are too arrogant, refusing to learn from the experience of others.
The web moves faster than your aging art degree. - waynechng, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I'm siding with PJ on this one. Don't discourage someone who's learning how to design websites online just because you paid for classroom time to learn the same thing, albeit more in depth. That's like telling people not to take photographs cause that's what photographers do and they went to school for that.
Mastering the tools doesn't mean you master the craft, but to master the craft, you have to master the tools. - CaveDog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6what a silly argument we have going on here.
I'm a programmer that also does web pages. Why? cause the Navy isn't going to hire a designer for their internal web app. Nonetheless, the users still want something that looks good and isn't just f'ked in the head. I grapple with design issues sometimes. Does my doing my job somehow hurt you? I doubt it. - AK10, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6TIME OUT!
A lot of points were made, some more valid than others. There is no "right" way to go about learning how to design. Some people gain their skills from formal education, some just have "it" and can work wonders without ever seeing the inside of a classroom.
I have seen portfolio of design grads that are so bad you have to wonder how a professor graded the assignments without going blind, but also amateurs that had some amazing work that blew me away. It is just not something you can generalize like that.
I thought the tips in the article were somewhat obvious but still useful, having them reinforced again can't hurt. - phatvolvo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6fetusface is still around? how can I unblock him so I can digg down whatever he said?
then again I'm sure it's being dugg down far enough already. - Skitzzo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I'm sure they could be applied then as well lol
- gregdigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4What's with all the spaces after the periods? One is good. Two is pushing it. But some sentences have 5 spaces after the period. Maybe random + overkill = good?
- brnews, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I'm not sure you can call those "tactics"..
- rattledaddy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6You obviously work there, right Jane? Since you dug every seomoz article and the drivl article that your boss wrote is your #1 story, I would say that is a safe bet.
And no, I'm not jealous I'm annoyed because this crap continues probably because your little seomoz army diggs all of the articles. It's called gaming. Not jealousy. I stand by my first statement. It is garbage submitted to digg solely to generate inbound links. - Skitzzo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4This is also the site of the MySuperProposal.com guy so I'm sure they were getting quite a bit of traffic even before the digg effect. I thought their tips for buying a domain name was better. (http://digg.com/business_finance/How_To_Choosing_the_Right_Domain_Name)
- vikinghammer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"sorry pee'j but i think they've got you here. they can not be a shame to the industry when in fact -- they are the industry."
Um, actually, the only way they could be a shame to their industry is if they're in their industry. If they weren't part of it, how could they bring shame to it?
Nice try though. - aaron411, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I don't understand what the big deal is. I've been a designer for over 20 years, and I still use these tactics practically every day. These are the basics...sometimes it's a good idea to go back to them.
- cwcentral, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Find someone who can tell you specifically what's wrong and ***how it could be improved***. Grow some thick skin, too. Don't assume every criticism is an attack on your work of art. Roll with the punches. "
That should be rule #1. Most web design is either done in a black hole or by a committee of 'too many chiefs in the tent'. And the above is a complete statement--for instance, just telling you what's wrong is just politics. You do need thick skin, etc... but a team member that provides suggestions and leaving it up to you, the designer, to make the decision is the most helpful in getting anything done, right. - theadvinci, on 07/02/2008, -0/+1Great tips. I use most of them from time to time when I get stuck designing a website.
- ArthurBrazil, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Nice guide. Im going to go out and buy me a white board lol.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5true, dude.
i'd ban everything that has "seo" letters in either domain or article name.
totally useless ***** - joshbradley, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Don't be a one-hit-wonder. Great tip.
- resplence, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6raindogmx:
"please leave us be"
EtherGnat:
"I know it's frustrating that everybody and their brother with a copy of FrontPage thinks they're a web designer"
Me:
"Articles like this are for the current generation of designers being raised by the internet, being brought up to think that to master the tools is to master the craft."
raindogmx and EtherGnat, thanks for endorsing my point.
I think it's naïve to say this article was meant for hobbyists. Take a look at any webdesign forum and you see tons of these 'hobbyists' trying to make a living with design. There's nothing wrong in learning design to do some stuff for yourself and friends, and nothing to be ashamed of when you design your own site only after reading a few tutorials. But once that's all the kind of knowledge you have and you decide to venture into the business, you're hurting clients, the industry and the craft. And, ultimately, this is what happens. - resplence, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6@waynechng and PJ:
That's not the issue here. The photography is a nice example, though. In real life, that's what happens, both in design and photography (and any other medium in which the advances of technology blurred the line between amateurs and pros, I suppose):
Client: I need someone to _make me a website / take pictures of my wedding_
Enthusiast: Hey, I have _photoshop / a camera_, I can do that. Take a look at what I've done *shows portifolio*
Client: That's lovely. How much do you charge?
Enthusiast: Really cheap, compared to the pros. And look, we have the same equipment, we can both achieve practically the same result, to the uneducated eye.
Client: Great, you're hired.
Now, if the client enjoys the result, he'll end up thinking 'what's the need for the so-called professionals? Perhaps I can even do this by myself.' And the enthusiast will never see the need to get a proper education. I've seen this happen more often than not.
If the client do not enjoy the result, he might be left with the impression that the whole craft is useless. This also happens a lot, out there.
So it's not a matter of 'CERTIFIED PROFESSIONALS ONLY', it's just that this kind of reinforcement doesn't encourage the enthusiast-professionals to evolve and get better. - domtak, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Yeah - you guys up top are being very critical on the article. I've been in this game for 15+ years and the article makes some very valid points and suggestions which I use myself. I think anyone interested in design can learn or reaffirm something from this.
- SwellGuy007, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I think that design ability is instinctive. You have it or you don't. Anyone can learn the rhetoric, but not everyone can design. Just like everyone can sing, but some will make you hurl, and some will move you to tears.
I have been in the web industry for 10 years and never did get any good at design. I can program like the wind, but cannot make a slick design to save my own hide. It is not from the lack of trying, I just do not have the inner juju. By the same token, the design team I work with cannot program a simple database application because they think differently than a programmer.
I can duplicate almost anything I see with Photoshop, CSS and whatever other tools I may need, but coming up with an original design always falls flat. So, the principals in the article are sound, but the practice may not be. - joenewbreed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yeah but now i've got folders and folders of buttons that aren't Web 2.0 compliant... know anyone I could sell them to?
- 3DProf4online, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Hi people!
What are your opinions about implementing 3D into online store web sites? Could 3D improve product presentation in an online-store?
What online product view presentation is better to choose - 2D, Flash or 3D?
3DProf4online
from TouchBubble.com - GrahamStw, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1That "tangerine tree" site (that the article mentions) sure is pretty: but did anyone else notice that the links on it don't work!
Typical designer, form over function :) - somnambulator, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I do this webby deesine thingy for a living too, I went to a design school to learn it. Plus I've heard each of those tips before elsewhere.
BUT I've bookmarked that page because I frequently do the 'wrong' bit of each one.
A well written & amusing list like that is a great reminder to me to get my head out of my own arse and design properly! - squishee, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3rattledaddy, you're being ignorant and discriminatory when you say that all SEO sites should get banned from Digg. Not every SEO is a spammer. Some of us are an actual marketing company, but you lump us into one big category as if we're all snake oil salesmen out to manipulate the system and earn a quick buck.
I work for SEOmoz, and I don't only digg stuff that we submit, nor do we use Digg solely to market our site or our clients. We're also not a "link bait" company, and you're a moron to think that this post about web design tactics is nothing but a "catchy headline with no content."
Stop making generalizations and bitching about something that you don't know anything about. - hiredgoon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1the simplests philosophies are often the best. and this is no exception. I have used similar strategies for my own creative team, and this goes one better. good work.
- resplence, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5EtherGnat: "You think there aren't plenty of great artists that have never had any formal education?"
Design is not art. Art is entirely subjective, design is aimed to be objective. When designing professionally you _have_ to meet your client's expectations, and that's dealing with stuff like statistics and human behavior, to say a couple things a designer needs to worry about.
I could sit here and discuss all the merits in which design approaches _science_, but it would be of little service to those reading this and of seemingly no service to you, since you portray yourself as being somewhat acknowledged in the field, possibly even an expert on some areas, and is thus supposed to know this better than me.
"I suppose I'm not supposed to enjoy the painting shows on PBS or the cooking shows on the Food Network either because I'll never be Van Gogh or Wolfgang Puck."
What? We were talking about doing, now it's about 'enjoying'? How does this relate to the craft? Anyone is free to enjoy anything they'd like. You can enjoy having sex with a dog without being one. - janemcopland, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4Our "little army" consists of seven people. Hardly strong enough to get stories on the home page, unless you know something I don't about the Digg algorithm :P
And "Every Mythbusters Myth Ever on One Page My Number One!" is my number one. Rand didn't write that. Jeff Pollard will get very sad if you spread that rumour around.
And why so annoyed? It's only Digg, sweetiepants. - resplence, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Bury me.
- joenewbreed, on 10/12/2007, -25/+22this article jumped out at me because i'm "stuck"
"You'll bend the laws of space and time to make that goddamn button look right in your page.
Learn to let it go."
incredibly good advice. - janemcopland, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4The bitterness! I'm sorry we're clogging your tubes, rattledaddy. Sounds like a personal problem.
Also, why do you hate linkbait so much? Is it because you can't write any? - janemcopland, on 10/12/2007, -4/+0The great thing about all of this is that the diggs just keep going up. That's got to rattle daddy's cage even more, innit.
- letdowntourist, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2"I suppose I'm not supposed to enjoy the painting shows on PBS or the cooking shows on the Food Network either because I'll never be Van Gogh or Wolfgang Puck."
The problem isn't with attempting to learn (more power to you), its what you're being taught in this article. To use your analogy, its like asking Wolfgang Puck how to pay for your groceries, not prepare them.
The bottom line is, if you don't do these things already you probably should. Most of us do already, and the article doesn't even begin to start telling us what it promises to do in the headline... to help us when we're stuck. I think that's what everyone's beef is. - BZKyle, on 10/12/2007, -10/+5Cool..site down already.
- iamshades, on 10/12/2007, -8/+0http://www.duggmirror.com
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+4i just want to settle one point here for clarity, design should = art.
if you're not putting art into your designs ....they must really be lacking. if the design isn't incorporating art, all you have created is functional but boring and uninspiring crap. wheres the gradient css zengarden button in photoshop? -
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