What is Digg?Sponsored by Dragon Age: Origins
Follow the Dragon Age: Origins development team on Twitter view!
twitter.com/DragonAge - EA presents BioWare's new dark fantasy epic Dragon Age: Origins. '9/10' from Game Informer.
51 Comments
- jummy, on 02/02/2009, -3/+20Useful review, thanks! But one must be very careful when using CSS frameworks - before using third-party templates you must make sure that you understand how the frameworks is built and what it does to avoid bloated and unreadable code. In particular, YUI is known for its really esoteric CSS-code.
- digitalcowboy99, on 02/02/2009, -3/+13@rwallen, dude...get the chip off your shoulder. I am not too dumb to use CSS, but my specialty is on backend applications and systems manipulation. But sometimes, I DO have to build websites. Anything to make things eaiser and possibly help standardize across applications/pages etc. will help everyone. Geez. Sorry we are not all "Uber Web Gods" like yourself.
- BadAsh71, on 02/02/2009, -2/+10Yeah, there is really nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel with every site you make.
Have fun with that :-)
/sarcasm
The idea behind "frameworks" like this is that most of us fight with this crap all the time and we have our own copy/paste libraries of fixes, tweaks and layouts that work but its nice to make use of a professional library that has already done a lot of that for you... and more importantly is being used by way more people than just you. - d03boy, on 02/02/2009, -0/+7I didn't know they made frameworks for css... interesting
- jggube, on 02/02/2009, -1/+7The Fluid 960 Grid System framework is awesome. I think the reason CSS frameworks haven't really taken off is that fixed-width (frozen) is very simple to get working. But fluid layouts require a bit more thought and development for cross-browser support.
- inactive, on 02/02/2009, -3/+9Thanks for sharing. 960 CSS Framework is what i wanted.
- VeritasAequitas, on 02/02/2009, -0/+6It's not that it's NEEDED, it's just helpful when you are doing a whole bunch of different sites and maintaining them. Especially when you are just updating content and adding random pages a lot which is obviously a plus of CSS itself w/o the frameworks.
But hey I'll admit it I'm lazy. Hell there is no need for WYSIWYG's but people use them don't they. - d03boy, on 02/02/2009, -1/+7There are many complications with CSS involving browser compatibility. Frameworks are likely to handle this for you.
- PaulClayberg, on 02/02/2009, -0/+6Wait, wait. Yahoo offers a popular design framework yet their site STILL looks like *****?
- satyarth, on 02/02/2009, -0/+5I agree partially with BadAsh71, but one more point is if you're a professional designer its much better to create your own framework.
- johnnybravoh, on 02/02/2009, -0/+4For me, CSS changed the way I think about layout. With table based layout the nesting of <td> and <table> elements became unwieldy for me. Often I couldn't quickly tell which table this <td> belonged to or which <table>/<tr>/<td> tag wasn't closed because there was just soo much html code in the page. I still use tables to display table data though....
I keep track of which </div> belongs to its parent by using a simple <!--comment--> on the </div> So it looks like this:
<div id="navigation">
...
</div><!--navigation-->
Easy to distinguish.
Additionally, there's a far higher code to content ratio using tables than css.
With css, most everything is just a box. You simply place stuff in boxes (<div>s) and then apply formatting. Boxes can overlap, you can control what box appears in front of the others, and probably most importantly, you can change the layout almost trivially by modifying the css. You cannot do that with table based layouts.
Also you can modify the display based on the medium. Want a graphics free print version of your content? CSS can help you do that with very little effort. Want to narrow the site to accommodate a handheld device? CSS can help you do that with very little effort.
Go through the pain to learn css. You'll be glad you did. I sure am glad I did.
Two books that helped me are:
"CSS Mastery" by Andy Budd http://www.amazon.com/CSS-Mastery-Advanced-Standar ...
Bullet Proof Website Design by Dan Cederholm http://www.amazon.com/Bulletproof-Web-Design-flexi ... - johnnybravoh, on 02/02/2009, -0/+4I honestly don't get it. I may be missing something but for me, I always use a reset.css at http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/reset/ at the very top of a new site, then i have body, #Wrap, #Header, #Nav, #ContentWrap and #Content placeholders that I then define for the skeleton of my site.
This provides the structure for my sites based on whatever design I've been given and it works very well for me.
I'm sure some grid framework would work it's just that I've found a comfortable, reliable way of doing things in css and the grid based css frameworks just aren't that compelling to me. jquery's ui framework looks pretty sexy though.... - fastcars, on 02/02/2009, -0/+3I use CSS frameworks (usually blueprint) - saves me hours of rehashing, my clients are happy and w3c compliant (at least that's what Firefox tells me). Certainly with blueprint you can change the resolution (default is 950px) and i'm sure other frameworks are equally as accommodating. However if you don't want to use a framework... Don't.
- larsonc, on 02/02/2009, -0/+3I use their Reset and Fonts stylesheets, but the rest is rubbish.
- Charlotte_Web, on 02/02/2009, -0/+3I found the Digg Down, Block, and Report buttons...
- xCIone, on 04/15/2009, -0/+2Great tutorials
- fastcars, on 02/02/2009, -0/+2(i should add my clients themselves are not w3c compliant, but the html given to them is)
- qwer1234qwer, on 02/02/2009, -3/+5You will need a basic understanding of the CSS framework you are going to use to understand why and how things get solved.
- crispee, on 02/02/2009, -0/+2The problem with most of these frameworks is that they require you to put presentation classes in your markup. This might be ok with you, but if it's not, I recommend using Sass -- an alternate syntax for writing your stylesheets. There are ports of Blueprint, 960.gs, and YUI to Sass available from Compass http://compass-style.org
- chapsy, on 02/02/2009, -0/+2Is it really wroth it learn to use a framework or does it make more sense to make and use your own?
- FredFredrickson, on 02/02/2009, -0/+1Also, this is an interesting read: http://www.webdevout.net/articles/beware-of-xhtml
- Pherdnut, on 04/28/2009, -0/+1If this leads to people insisting that I know how to use their obscure CSS frameworks to get the job, I'm going to start murdering amateurs and hiring managers who don't know anything about what we do. As if the JS ***** wasn't enough. Before I go on the market again, I'm going to have build a no less than 6 different versions of a something complicated like a random sudoku generator just to prove to all these jagoffs that you want is not a framework expert but a JavaScript expert. The problem with most frameworks is that they're made by people who think the skills they are making "easier" are "hard." Except JQuery of course. John Resig is JGod.
- Pherdnut, on 04/28/2009, -0/+1If you're getting paid to know CSS, and you need to use a framework, you lied to get the job. I don't call myself a back end guy because I can do half of your job with Word Press.
- madmanz123, on 02/02/2009, -1/+2That's a broad generalization that does not take each site on its own merits and issues.
- MrChunks, on 02/08/2009, -0/+1HTML 5 is more likely to be the "next big thing" as opposed to a newer version of XHTML. I agree with your comment as far as CSS goes but XHTML over HTML? Nah.
- madmanz123, on 02/02/2009, -0/+1While the layout has its own classes to use, you can assign multiple classes to an element or put the classes inside them with other tags. Doubt it would be too big a deal.
- TheHerk, on 02/02/2009, -0/+1Yeah, I just downloaded it. It looks fantastic. There is a video linked overview of it. Brilliant.
- kaniz, on 02/02/2009, -1/+2I dont think that there is a need for [TECHNOLOGY] frameworks. It's not like this is rocket science. If you are too dumb to write your own [TECHNOLOGY] you are too dumb to be building [THINGS] using it.
-----------
If you are too daft to understand our ridiculous that comment is, well then....... - rwallen, on 02/03/2009, -0/+1The point is you should build your own framework and not use someone else's bloated work. It's like all the people who use jquery for a simple image mouseover effect and nothing else. I would be willing to bet that 90% of the people that use these frameworks don't clean up the CSS to get rid of everything they aren't using.
- FredFredrickson, on 02/02/2009, -0/+1CSS might be quicker to load, but it's not any quicker to render. With internet speeds getting faster by the way, what's the point in worrying about a few bytes of data?
- moltar2, on 02/02/2009, -0/+1Ya same here... their reset tho is very good.
- Pherdnut, on 04/28/2009, -0/+1Mmm... no, that's actually pretty amateur and behind the times. What you learned 4-5 years ago is no longer true. That's how it works with technology. 800 x 600? How many 5-7 year old laptops and CRT monitors have you seen out there lately?
- bilco, on 02/03/2009, -0/+1Video down currently, anyone got another link for it ?
- Petronious, on 02/02/2009, -1/+2If you are designing _new_ websites with HTML rather than CSS/XHTML, you should not be getting paid for it.
- kaniz, on 02/03/2009, -0/+1Frameworks of any type have a place, and one should not jump into one without giving some thought first to what they want to accomplish.
However, some people depending on their jobs can be forced into positions where they need to do HTML/CSS when that may not be their strongest skill. I have a few graphic designer friends who are great in PhotoShop/Illustrator and are top-notch designers, but fall into the trap when looking for a job that also wants HTML/CSS/PHP/JavaScript/ASP.NET/etc/etc, all the while offering the pay of a Jr. level position, however the fact that many companies cant seem to grasp that Graphic Designer != Web Developer is a whole other rant.
For people like that, who's first job/role is a Graphic Designer, and their company may not have a Web Designer/Developer that can take the assets to produce the page - a Framework can be a really useful tool for letting them realize their vision without having to struggle with the issues that come along with developing HTML/CSS layouts.
Or, you may have some Joe who just wants to run his own blog for whatever reason, and doesn't want to deal with the headaches of creating a cross-browser CSS complaint layout to accomplish what he wants.
Or, you may have a Developer that has a focus on creating the back-end logic to run the website, and doesn't have someone to do the front-end, so they may turn to a framework to lower the time it takes to accomplish that.
Me, I'm a Developer, I find CSS to be a total pain in the ass - and quite frankly, I'm happy to have a job that lets me do what I do and not need to deal with CSS as part of my work. But, for personal projects - I don't have a 'team' to create the front-ends for me, and something like a solid framework for CSS/JavaScript/etc lets me focus on the elements of development that I enjoy vs struggling with stuff that I find to be a pain and hate dealing with. - Destinyx3, on 02/03/2009, -0/+1Frameworks are quite useful especially CSS frameworks. My personal favorites are Tripoli as a reset and 960 is a very good one as well for multi-column layouts.
- Pherdnut, on 04/28/2009, -0/+1I think HTML 5 is going to be a flop because IE is only going to have more things to screw up not less. It's like an entire segment of the industry has collective amnesia or something. The whole point of CSS is to get everybody on the same page and give IE fewer non-explicit things to screw up. CSS is very explicit and IE can't even get that right. Now we're going back to mixing content and presentation? WTF? Why is this a good thing?
- jimmysilvs, on 02/02/2009, -0/+0yes, we all know that the differences between xhtml and html are mostly irrelevant and negligible at best, depending on your coding practices. but css vs tables is like night and day.
make a website using tables then try to view it on a mobile device. try redesigning the site without changing the markup of each page. or try explaining the jumbled mess of code to a co-worker or client.
and ironically enough, that article you linked is an all css layout. - FredFredrickson, on 02/02/2009, -1/+1Explain why. HTML isn't going anywhere.
- deanburge, on 02/02/2009, -0/+0http://unobtrusivecss.com/ - makes fun of CSS frameworks
- xCIone, on 04/15/2009, -3/+3always worth it
- jimmysilvs, on 02/02/2009, -1/+1once you get css/xhtml down your sites will be quicker to load, easier to update, and more accessible.
also, css 2 was released a decade ago and is fully backward compatible with css 1. - avianeddy, on 02/17/2009, -3/+2NICE
- alwed5, on 03/23/2009, -2/+0http://www.linkedin.com/pub/12/353/a74
http://chat.ader3.com/
http://qlbe.ahlablog.com/
http://www.diigo.com/profile/abdalazez
http://www.blinklist.com/3bdalazez/
http://chatrooma.blogspot.com/
http://www.4shared.com/u/qkspkmp/3394e779/_sharing ...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8926494886 ...
http://www.alexa.com/data/details/main/dll3.cc
http://dll3.onsugar.com/2807515
http://dll3.onsugar.com/
http://www.dll3.cc/Partners/
http://forum.dll3.cc/showthread.php?t=3194
http://forum.dll3.cc/showthread.php?t=701
http://forum.dll3.cc/showthread.php?t=1713 - tl01, on 02/12/2009, -2/+0thanks for sharing
E-Guide to Dating: http://yaydating.blogspot.com/
Become a Real-Life Guitar Hero: http://beaguitarhero.blogspot.com/
Weight Loss Guide: http://losedempounds.blogspot.com/ - rwallen, on 02/02/2009, -10/+7I don't think there is a need for CSS frameworks. It's not like this is rocket science. If you are too dumb to write your own CSS you are too dumb to be building sites using it.
-
Show 51 - 56 of 56 discussions
Browsing Digg on your phone just got easier with our enhancements to the 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is