What is Digg?111 Comments
- ThinkBox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+37I'm currently in film school - and here are my responses.
1. Your favorite filmmaker didn't go to film school.
- so what? Who says they wouldn't be a better filmmaker if they did go to film school. I'm learning mounds of information in my film theory classes and my film history classes are very fascinating. You have to know where you come from to know where you are going.
2. Digital Video.
- guess what, most of hollywood still revolves around Film, Im shooting on a 16mm short later today and with the advent of digital video film is becoming more and MORE scarce, and most film schools don't even deal with Film. Giving someone a camera does not make them a filmmaker - this isn't about an elitist format either. I did my first 16mm shoot thinking I would hate it since i have grown up with digital my whole life. I was surprised by the beautiful simplicity and professionalism that Film brings to the table rather than DV. DV has great options, but the medium isn't the message.
3. Film school is expensive.
- no ***** sherlock - what about hollywood is cheap?
"produce your project for a whole lot less money than the six figures you'd spend on a degree." - Yeah, they are acting like you don't learn anything in film school. Why don't you just skip business school and invest in an upstart internet business. (they say you can use your college money to make a film and then put it on the net) - well film exhibition and distribution still needs to go through the right channels in order to be successful - there is a lot on the net, what makes you think you could reclaim ANY of your investment in that film but just throwing it on the internet and hoping all the right people watch it and offer you a job.
4. The Internet.
The Article speaks on the amazing ability to distribute film for free. Let me make this clear. You get what you pay for. Yeah, you are watching tons of youtube videos all day long, but how many of those do you really care about who made them, and would go to a theater to watch a 2 hour movie that they made? YouTube isnt a cinematic show case for up and coming filmmakers - it is for people getting hit in the nuts, hi-speed cameras, and colbert.
5. The Long Tail.
- so it is hard to break into the industry? Whining about it and then using a niche of "free" internet distributed DV projects will not give you the same amount of steady work as if you brave the tough system in hollywood. If you think shunning the industry and working without it through uncharted channels will suddenly make you big and accepted into the industry you are dead wrong. Dead Wrong. Ya know, if you are taking your future career advice from a top 10 list on dvguru.com then you need to reevaluate your life.
6. Netflix + books = critical studies.
- Just where do you begin? wanna borrow my syllabus for Film Theory - how about you go teach yourself classical art history and the basics on Audio, Pro Tools and FCP without having to go buy all the equipment or take classes. Having a good professor is as much a part of learning (and sometimes more of a part of learning) as the material you learn. Poor teachers and good material do not make great students. If you are not excellent at teaching yourself blindly out of a text book, then why think you can learn the basis of an art-form and industry out of your randomly picked text books (oh, which range around 500$ a semester)
7. Learn by doing.
- now this I agree with. but just the title. He sights Mark Cuban (whom I work for doing Dallas Mavericks videography for the big screen during games) - This guy is a genius and he DID go college (and he skipped his senior year in HS and went early) - He is an educated man, and smart with business - he is a media and business master, but not a filmmaker. Also this article mentions "instead of being able to focus on one specialty at film school" - what one speciality? FIlm school you learn theory, history, basic and advanced audio/video, editing, film.
8. You can't teach art. Can you?
Film is very technical, and YES, you can teach art, that is why there are many famous art schools. There are formalists and realist styles and a lot of equiptment to learn about.
9. Don't study film, study life.
Who says you can't study both? Really... If you are going to be a filmmaker, if that is what you really want to do, then maybe... just maybe... you should learn more about your passion so you can know how to take the technicallity behind it and own it.
10. You either have it or you don't.
Yeah, and Talent without training is wasted. - illt, on 10/12/2007, -8/+31"You can't teach art. Can you?"
i think people highly underestimate the teachability of art - bleutuna, on 10/12/2007, -6/+28and as someone who went to film school, I can say these arguments are full of crap. The two posters above me...what schools did you go to? Because simply "watching" movies doesn't teach you anything about the placement of lights, how different diffusions change light quality, about what the differences between a 50mm and a 164mm lens is when it comes to representing space and human action, about the characteristic curve of the CineAlta, the HVX-200, the SDX-900, the DVX-100bp or any other camera and how that compares to the film stocks from Kodak, Fuji and others, about the 180 rule and when its appropriate to break it, about the placement of camera and how to cover a scene, about the importance of various roles on set like script supervisor, and hundreds of other things you ONLY learn in a good film school.
Tarantino may not have gone to film school, but his DP sure did. As did probably 90% of his film crews. - kingkool68, on 10/12/2007, -7/+26And as someone who went to film school, I can say these are accurate.
- sadbean, on 10/12/2007, -5/+22And as someone else who went to film school, I can say these are accurate. Study anything else and make movies anyway.
- VeganG, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17"i think people highly underestimate the teachability of art"
You can teach the techniques of a medium, i.e. drawing skills. You can't teach amazing artistic expression. - thescimitar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Cheney, I think you are right with regard to the sort of NYU-chic asshats that live in the 'burg, but some film programs (at least the one I went to) do provide a lot of technical skills for technical positions. I never wanted to be a Director/Writer/Next-Great-Auteur, which I think is a category most of the "pretentious idiots" belong. But if you want to get your foot in the door with technical positions, film school isn't a bad thing. If anything, it provides you with contacts, albeit entry-level, with people in the industry, even if it's just rental houses and the like.
I highly doubt I could have been photographing films at this point in my life, if I had tried to simply self-start on my own time. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11@ thinkbox - I liked these quotes.
1. Who says they wouldn't be a better filmmaker if they did go to film school.
2. most of hollywood still revolves around Film
3. no ***** sherlock - what about hollywood is cheap?
4. how many of those do you really care about who made them, and would go to a theater to watch a 2 hour movie that they made?
5. Ya know, if you are taking your future career advice from a top 10 list on dvguru.com then you need to reevaluate your life.
6. Having a good professor is as much a part of learning as the material you learn.
7. what one speciality? FIlm school you learn theory, history, basic and advanced audio/video, editing, film.
8. YES, you can teach art
9. Who says you can't study both?
10. Talent without training is wasted - ericcc, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11I had pizza for dinner last friday.
- E55P3A, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7One reason you should: Networking and Contacts.
- kybrown17, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Dugg. Interesting read and the DVguru site in general is petty cool.
- rbilsbor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7As the author of the article, I'd have to agree with a lot of the comments here--intelligent peers, good professors, etc. are invaluable (and that's why I'm writing the other side of the argument--the pro film school side--too).
But I wholeheartedly disagree with bleutuna. There are a million people in Hollywood who know gamma curves, film stocks, light diffusions, and lens lengths, and don't have anything to SAY. Certainly no one's complaining about the way movies LOOK these days. - pgup, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I beleive anyone has the right to do whatever the hell they want to do.
I could write up a list like this for every college major. - SulFuRus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You have to learn the rules in order to break them all.
- dvddesign, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4So, go get a major in business, and a minor in theater/communication. You'll learn both of the two you just listed AND you'll have a fall back when you're waiting tables. Don't delude yourself that you just paid your way through to be Key Grip or Film Loader on someone's film earning $25,000 a year out in CA. Nope, go out to CA, and you're on that same level as the guy who cut bait at 18 and moved out there. Except you're older and poorer, while still working for free living with 3 other people. No one will care that you know the about the benefits of a RIFA light or a Jib. Even if you had to go head to head against that 18 year old for a job. Why? Because no one's going to mind teaching that 18 year old about that. He'll ask questions and read up if he's really wanting to make a career out of it. He'll get his education while working.
cameras available for students to check out - when they want it, when they need it. Need a Panther Dolly? You got it. For free. Need a steadicam? Got it. For free. Need access to a KinoFlo or an ArriSun? Got those too.
Same for that kid with no college. He works with whatever his boss needs, learns it, and keeps on going. No need to ever learn steadicam camera work if you don't need it. If you end up working in sports broadcasting, how critical is it to you that you learned about dolly shots when you're doing nothing but locked in place shots from the sidelines? If you're master control at a TV station, why did you bother learning 3D motion control rigging characters in 3D Studio Max? You learn all this, and you wind up being an average artist at everything. That kid working that crane all day long? He stands a better shot at being damn good at manuevering that crane.
"If you don't know what these things are...but still think you can "make a great movie" then you should check yourself. So much more goes into filmmaking than you could ever know."
I can recommend a dozen books that would teach you all about these theories and terms, and technology. Leonard Chapman's got storage facilities all over the US, go take a tour and check out their stuff.
You're still in school, and you're justifying yourself, can't blame ya, I'm sure I did as well when I was in school. It really does help to have someone to tell you your work sucks or is good, and networking is nice, but lots of people in Hollywood are more than eager to be critical of your work, and all of those make good network opportunities as well. - dvddesign, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I graduated film school working at wal-mart.
My best friend graduated working at FedEx.
Going out and finding a job? THAT gets you a job. Slaving away, getting extremely complex cups of coffee for retarded ***** at 4 am? That gets you a job. - bleutuna, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7The chances of making money after leaving film school is ridiculously high. You can ALWAYS grip, gaff, PA, etc.
The chances of becoming the next Tarantino or Singer or Spielberg are ridiculously low.
The chances of becoming a Wes Anderson or Richard Linklater aren't so bad.
If you want to be in the Hollywood system, and don't care where on the ladder you are - then just go out to Hollywood and get a job gripping. You probably WILL NOT move up the ladder, but you'll be in the industry.
However, if you have a desire to make quality, independent films, then Film School is a great way to go about it. You learn a ridiculous amount. Like how to finance a film. How to budget. How to schedule. How to work with actors the right way (a consistent problem that nearly every 'untrained' director gets wrong). How to speak the language of your crew, to know what lights you need and what you're working with.
I'm in my last quarter at the Savannah College of Art and Design. I did not come to this school for film, but once I found out how good the teachers in the program were, I quickly jumped into the major. Some professors are completely ass. Others are amazing, and teach you more than you could ever imagine. Plus, unlike other film schools like NYU which require you to rent all your equipment, SCAD has everything from 35mm to HD cameras available for students to check out - when they want it, when they need it. Need a Panther Dolly? You got it. For free. Need a steadicam? Got it. For free. Need access to a KinoFlo or an ArriSun? Got those too.
If you don't know what these things are...but still think you can "make a great movie" then you should check yourself. So much more goes into filmmaking than you could ever know.
I don't know about UA in Philly or other schools..but we MAKE MOVIES here. All the time. At least 1 a quarter, sometimes 3. You learn by doing. Not by lecture. - rheaume, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I work in the video game industry, and before this I worked in the live concert scene designing and operating lighting setups for mostly concerts, but a few theater productions.
I never went to school for any of it, never got my GED, I'm just one of those people that can sit there and figure stuff out and be creative, if you cant, I don't recommend that you think you can go from never getting a good idea for a scene or a game or a piece of art or anything to going to pricey school, then coming out ready to make a bundle of cash.
Personally for the lighting thing I just started doing it, hanging out with people, helping out for free, volunteered to wrap up cables then within a year or so i was in the union setting up Pink Floyd's lighting. For computer stuff I got a 386 in the mid 90's and started making crappy web pages, within a few years I was making money as a web developer. For game design I started making my own Quake levels then a few years later I was working on AAA titles.
Am I a genius? No, just creative and driven, those are key things to have to be in these industries.
If you're not, best case, you'll be a good slave for someone with those skills, because if you cant continuously be retrained or retrain yourself in new techniques and gear every year, you wont last. Up here people spend in upwards of 30-50k to go to VFS and looking at what gear costs these days to rent or buy, you could make several guerrilla productions with friend's help and buy a home editing setup for half that. Then again, if you need to be taught everything by someone else, maybe its not the best thing to get into. - ArmyOfFun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@Hollywood
Well, he didn't say what you should start gripping. I took it as, go out to Hollywood and start grasping at anything that walks by: people, dogs, robots. In Hollywood, at some point, you might grab something useful, like a wallet or maybe a lamp. That lamp that you just "gripped" (for free), will now provide light in your low budget film that probably deals with some boring existential issue that gets hashed out through tilt shots of the inside of a really cool coffee shop that one of your new roommates told you about. - knickerbocker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Those who can't do it, teach it (by and large). Went to film school (to get the educational imprimatur), didn't pick up a damn thing I didn't know already. Been in film and television for 25 years and always laugh at those ads for the likes of the Toronto Film School, etc.
Network, people. Network because your professional life'll depend on it. Never stop learning whether or not there's an obvious connection to what it is you do. Don't forget that there'll always be some chump who'll work for nothing (or next to it) just for the credit.
And most of all, don't forget that it's a business! F*ck the glamour. - bleutuna, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Going to film school tells you very little about how to have something to SAY. But that didn't seem to be the point of the article, at least from my standpoint.
Watching lots of movies and getting a cheap digital camera and playing with it doesn't automatically give you something to say either. Someone who is self-taught can have just as much to say as someone who went to film school, and vice versa. It's just the guy who went to film school has far more savoir faire, and speaks the language.
He's not walking around with a translator guide in his pocket, constantly fumbling. - flypcide, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Definitely no right or wrong way. Film school is good for discipline and networking and motivation. Though if you're serious about this as a career, you should already have all those abilities.
I went to film school and work at a movie studio (not on the production side, but management) so I have some working knowledge. Breaking in to the industry does not require a film degree. If you are motivated, you can get out there and start at the bottom and work your way up to DP, editor, Key Grip, etc without a degree....you can even write and direct if you're good enough to network with the right people (so many people in LA already work in the industry or know people who know people, you're bound to start up your own little network without having to go to film school).
Even with a degree, you will start out at the bottom just like the guy without a degree and it will take you just as long to move your way up the ladder. A degree won't get you your first job directing for a major studio. A reel will. Something noticed at a film festival will. And neither requires a degree. If you want to write, a degree won't get you your first sale. An agent will. And you don't need a degree to get an agent. You need talent, lots of scripts under your belt, and friends. None of which a degree automatically grants you.
You'll have a little more knowledge and experience from the start with a degree, but you will quickly pick up everything you need to know by day 2 on the job anyway - so what does it matter? I did all that too, but ended up going the management route instead and I'm happy with that.
Go or don't go? Up to the individual. But going is not necessary. Commitment to being poor for many years and wanting it no matter what the odds, is what it takes. - hydoskee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I did film in undergrad, and I believe it was completely worth it for the reasons stated above by everyone else. I got accepted to grad school for film, and went for 4 days before I realized they were going to try to make me pay $140,000 to learn the same thing over again, then dropped out. Undergrad Film is worth it, or Graduate Film, but you definitely don't need both.
- thaglove10, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11Yeah well you must not have gone to a very good film school.
I'm in a film program right now. The big thing is you have to find a school that lets you learn by doing like it suggests in the article. Pick a school where you make films instead of watching films.
It also doesn't hurt to pick a program that offers other skills like television and radio.
I already have career prospects and I haven't even half-finished my program yet.
For anyone reading this article who were thinking about going to film school, don't discount it, just be smart about it. - hollywoodphony, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I would say the only reason.
- surfff, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I went to University of the Arts in Philly and let me tell you, it IS a waste of money. PRICE is huge. its 30,000 a year. the education is BLAND. im telling you....true knowledge is teaching yourself.
I learned more about video editing from self teaching and reading up on the net then i did for all my education at University of the arts.
your limited TOO much in college, and when u are on ur own, ur limit is all far as ur imagination can reach.
art schools are boring, and everyone is the same (usally all emo)
so yeah, it is a ripoff - rabiddogma, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@bleutuna
You don't have to go to film school to learn any of that stuff. In fact most of those techniques, and theories can be learned in about 2 weeks. Most of that is simple trade school level mechanics. As far as the technical stuff goes most of is will be obsolite in a couple of years. The best thing to do is develop good habits of self instruction, because the learning never stops. - thescimitar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@bleutuna
While I agreed with your points on technical perspectives, I do have to disagree with the idea that film school means you don't have to start out as a PA. There's a large difference between a 10k show, or a 100k show, or a million plus show. My first big show was as a Clapper-Loader and boy did I ever get my ass kicked. Film school or no, you're going to get your ass kicked for a while. I think school helps get your foot in the door, and it gives you access to equipment, so can test out cameras and film stocks.
But it's not a blank check to be a "movie-maker". - YourTechSupport, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Robert Rodriguez.
- El Mariachi, Desperado, Once Upon A Time In Mexico
- The Faculty
- Some other movies that I don't recall but were awesome. - davidhildreth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3agreed, im in film school right now and the contacts and oportunities i'll leave with will be more useful than most of my classes... but i still had to goto a film school to get those contacts and the sort of resume i have
- thaglove10, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2When it comes down to it. I guess it's about what you're going to school for.
If you want to go to school to learn to become a visionary, a cinematic storytelling genius like your favorite filmmaker, you're kidding yourself.
Nobody goes to film school and learns to become just as good at telling a story as Tarantino or Rodriguez or Coppola or whoever. If you are a natural storyteller or a natural creative talent, then you can go to film school and learn the tools to apply your talent. Take classes in cinematography and screenwriting.
If you don't have the creative eye but you have an eye for editing or you have an ear for sound, then you can go to film school and learn how to apply your skills to the entertainment industry.
The argument in the article "you either have it or you don't" can only be true to a certain degree. Sure, you may be born a great storyteller, but nobody is born a great scriptwriter.
P.S. I don't think Peter Jackson even finished high school if you want to add him to the list. - mjeppsen, on 10/12/2007, -13/+15Well-thought out arguments.
- aurazvid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you think you have a great idea and you want to become the next great screenwriter or director, by all means, go ahead and do it yourself. If you have a boatload of talent, and you put it out there, somebody's gonna notice. But if you want to learn what else goes into making TV or film, most film schools are a great place. You don't necessarily need to go to USC/UCLA/AFI/NYU... I went to San Diego State. It cost about 900 bucks a semester (more if you're out of state... but there are ways around that), and I made great contacts that have landed me every single job (editing) I've gotten since I graduated.
Bottom line: if you want to write and direct, you probably don't need film school. You'll meet great people who will help you and your projects get better, but that's possible outside of school too. If you want to DP/edit/produce/costume design or anything else, going to school is probably a VERY good choice. Unless you have an uncle who can get you a job. - thelandlady, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Uhmmm..George Lucas went to film school...Need to take him off your list.
- zkarcher, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Great piece, thanks for sharing.
- nycjap, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2And it really speaks to the larger context of why do a lot of things that you used to do before Internet/digital media and other technologies came along, like buying CDs, renting videos at Blockbuster or going to the Post Office. Don't do it! Streamline your life and leverage the tools at your disposal.
- darkstar949, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@VeganG - I think you nailed it, art classes teach you technique, theory, and place you with someone more expeniced that can mentor you as to your artistic skill. While art classes might reveal some hidden talent that you didn't know you had, odds are you will just be able to come away with a better idea of how art is made if you don't have any talent.
- daonlyfreez, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The good thing about it is that you do get into contact with experienced people on Art Schools in general, and you can learn a lot from them. The lousy thing about it is that the most talented people usually don't make it, the self-marketing savviest do.
- pseudoastronaut, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3right on you shouldnt go to any artistic school because they forget to teach something called "Talent"
- hollywoodphony, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You certainly know how to throw out your buzz words. The point isn't to simply watch movies. It is to go out and make movies. None of your "counterpoints" here couldn't be explained in a paragraph or two, but that doesn't mean you would fully understand them. All of this can really only be learned on a set. So if you want to argue film school as necessary to level the playing field so that people with no practical experience can jump into jobs they don't deserve in order to skip the natural learning curve of the working world, well then I guess you're right.
- ThinkBox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@ SulFuRus
"You have to learn the rules in order to break them all."
This is more true than most want to believe - Picasso was actually a very accomplished painter and could paint in the style of the famous David. - tzon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Re: egibney Enjoyed reading about your own personal experiences. Thanks for sharing the link to your website.
- bravefire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2...or the worst. Just depends on who you ask.
- stmiller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yes. This list applies if you want to be a musician also. Don't really need three degrees. Just go out there and do it. Graduate degrees in music are good for heading to be an academic univ teacher. But as for jumping out there and being a musician, just do it!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2A lot of my professors were depressing. They'd tell you long-winded stories about the terrible stuff that happened to them in Hollywood and warn you never to make films. I got the impression that a lot of them burned their bridges in the industry a long time ago and kind of got shipped off to film school as penance.
- darkstar949, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@dvddesign - I think the parent meant after you finish your degree - pretty much every single degree out there is so you can find a job after you finish your degree.
- unit101, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The good thing about film school is in learning what jackasses most people that want to be filmmakers really are.
That said, I did have some professors that were very inspiring. - jonnyeh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Dugg for mentioning the "long tail".
- darkstar949, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The "can art be taught" is pretty much as old as time - at the end of the day it all boils down to talent - you either have it or you do not. You can teach any one fundamentals of artistic technique and given enough time they will make some nice stuff, but do they have the "knack" to make something truly unique - and can that "knack" be taught though schooling?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2You may read Sergei Eisenstein and Andre Bazin on your own, but having someone with a background in theory to dialogue with as you absorb the material helps a lot. This goes for every facet of film as an art form. Critical study of the medium with the feedback of people who've spent their lives studying it will help you more than you can realize until you experience it.
I have a BA in Cinema with an emphasis in Production from San Francisco State. I'd say the biggest drawback to film school, at least at a public university, is that we had 3000 people trying to get into about 300 spots in the program. The first year was largely just a weeding-out process where the tourists got their hopes and dreams trampled. If you can afford a private college like NYU or USC then you may not have to run the gauntlet. Of course, that's a part of learning how to deal with a marketplace brimming with competition, so maybe it's not so bad. -
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