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246 Comments
- badqat, on 07/18/2009, -2/+206# 11. If it's a "family friend" or a family member...
- OneRottenTomato, on 07/18/2009, -1/+147I don't have a lot of money = I will be making a lot of demands.
- TheSkunkMonkey, on 07/18/2009, -2/+123"It shouldn't take more than 2 hours."
I ***** HATE people that tell me how long something should take. If you know exactly how long it will take, clearly you know how to do it. So do it your ***** self!
Grrrrr! - gemlarin, on 07/18/2009, -0/+117#12 I have a few other designers I am thinking about, could you create a few examples so I can decide if I want to use you.
- moothemagiccow, on 07/18/2009, -0/+87"There isn’t much money for this job but it could really lead to a lot more work down the road."
Ding, ding ding.
I would've also accepted "I can refer you to friends of mine."
Great, more people who don't want to pay me - B1665r, on 07/18/2009, -0/+79"As long as you are paying for it"
- GeNe07, on 07/18/2009, -1/+72Can you make me a "wordpress"?
- bscene, on 07/18/2009, -0/+70http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2a8TRSgzZY
- Xinil, on 07/18/2009, -0/+599. He wants to make sure you can build his site so it will show up first on Google.
I can't even begin to count how many of my clients ask this. "Why isn't my site showing up first on the list when I type _____ in google?"
*sighs* - blackinthmiddle, on 07/18/2009, -0/+58To me, the absolute worst is the person who doesn't have what they want written down. I've worked with a few people like this. It usually goes like:
Me: "So what do you want built?"
Client: "Well we don't have anything written down, but we're pretty flexible with what we want.
Man, after years of coding, I've learned that you should run from this person...FAST! This person seems to start off as the guy/girl that will just "trust you" because of your experience. No doubt, some are like this. But they have no clue what they want, but no matter what you build them, it's not what they want! Never deal with someone who hasn't fleshed out what s/he wants and this includes getting approval from all of the departments they work for as well.
My friend just had an experience like this. He's a graphic designer and was rendering video for someone. They had nothing written down, so he told them, "Ok, this is what I'm going to do for you. Are you happy?" He then reiterated that the rendering will take days to do, so he wanted a second sign off. They assured him they would be happy. Then they complained about everything he told them to check before hand. He had to threaten to sue to get his money. - ATL, on 07/18/2009, -0/+57this is what portfolios are for, anything beyond that is going to come with a fee
- eanbowman, on 07/18/2009, -0/+53"Oh, you can just do that for free for me because I'm a friend/family, right?"
"That's what you'd charge them, but what would you charge me?"
or the best
"Here's 1000 page site with e-commerce and content management I want you to have done by next week. You basically just pull a few all nighters and flip the switch and it'll be done, right? You didn't have any plans, did you?" - Urrelles, on 07/18/2009, -0/+46Too bad he doesn't explain a bit about each statement as to why it is so bad. I have experienced a few bad ones listed here like the "doesn't pay now, but more projects down the road gig." "Or new webmaster" line. But it would be nice to here the writers reasoning for these flags.
- MisterCox, on 07/18/2009, -0/+36If you're good at something, don't do it for free.
- inactive, on 07/19/2009, -1/+37# 13 I want the site to make enough to cover your wages
# 14 My wife will be taking control of the websites progression (<-stubborn bitch from hell who will trash a months worth of data base conversion work in a whole 2 seconds then complain the thing is not working - pack up and go you have no choice. )
# 15 You will be required to finish the catalog in 12 weeks. Also I need to do other tasks like sales in the showroom.
# 16 I will need you to retake all the images and publish them in 2 weeks (1800 items)
# 17 My wife might make changes as you go.(<- ever had this happen? If so, pack your ***** up and leave never come back)
# 18 I believe in spiritual healing and mineral crystals as a spirit guide.
# 19 We have rules about the way you work. No breaks for coffee unless you ask permission. (<- run a ***** mile. Thrombosis and cross eyes with a thumping headache is a certainty)
# 20 We are having problems with the network. My computer is not working, what did you do? - inactive, on 07/18/2009, -4/+39The list should be titled "how to be a douchebag"
You're working for Luddites most of the time, not other web designers. Most clients I talk to are more than happy for me to correct some of their misconceptions (in a polite way). If you decline the job you're just leaving them open for some outdated hack to take over and no one learns anything.
The more you can educate people about this stuff the better the market gets, and the more people actually value your work. Yes, you have to be careful with these clients - but I wouldn't just outright ignore them. - inactive, on 07/18/2009, -4/+38cool story, bro.
- eanbowman, on 07/18/2009, -2/+35Quite well, actually. :D
And you're dead wrong. This list is made by a realistic person.
Those red flags say a lot that the article really didn't go into. It's an inside joke amongst freelancers and unless you've been there I don't expect you to get it.
Basically they say that this person doesn't understand and/or doesn't communicate well and they'll have unreasonable expectations which will cost both themselves and you way more than it's worth.
If you can later clarify some points that make it seem like the job is doable, sure by all means. If it seems like it'll be an uphill battle, why do it? It won't be profitable and you may not even break even.
Leave this job to one of those $300/website shops.
Your stress level isn't worth it. - eanbowman, on 07/19/2009, -0/+31I don't see how bringing an injured friend/family member to the hospital is like offering them a luxury such as having their own website done by a proffessional, but I'm glad they're okay. ;)
As well, I'm doing a website for free for a friend right now. He also fully understands that since it's for free it'll be finished when I have the time.
That said, I also made a promise to do something so I should keep it and not drag the project on forever.
It's all about managing expectations as someone posted below. ;) - inactive, on 07/18/2009, -1/+28I agree with the comment about the website committee.
Rather than working with one demanding, clueless, incoherent person who doesn't know squat, you'll be dealing with 12. - sometemple, on 07/18/2009, -13/+39I think this is a terrible list. Just because somebody heard meta tags were all important or thinks flash is a buzz-word that might make his/her site "cool" doesn't mean that they aren't serious about getting a site done and paying you well for it. Most people contracting web work don't have a clue about what it entails. If I turned everybody down that asked stupid questions I wouldn't work.
- eanbowman, on 07/18/2009, -1/+27SEO is something that even the people who pretend to be pros don't fully understand. They just make very good educated guesses.
That said I know some very talented people who are paid to do nothing but SE optimisation. The game changes all the time though as Google isn't exactly friendly toward people trying to game the system.
As well, search engines are for finding content. If your page is full of relevant content, you'll be where you want to be within a few weeks unless the search term you want is over used. - fishpicker, on 07/19/2009, -0/+24#13 "don't waste time designing graphics. I already found the ones I want to use from Google images."
#12 "my wireless login? uhh... let me go ask my neighbor. he's the one that pays the cable bill."
#11 "I want my business logo on my website. I designed it myself with MS paint. Just make it bigger and better resolution. And I want it to look exactly like this one." - consonance, on 07/18/2009, -0/+23How good are your Internets?
(This thread is now a list of awful questions to ask web designers.) - gemlarin, on 07/18/2009, -0/+21"do Flash" is always a reason for me to turn down a gig, and not because I dont know how to "do Flash", which I do.
The reason is because if they want me to "do Flash", they are asking for an all Flash site. Which also means, they are going to be expecting me to re-work the AS every time they want to update navigation, or add a new feature. And, they are going to expect me to do it for free.
The only time I "do Flash" is when I suggest it for specific area's of a website, maybe a catalog browser, or a media viewer. Something that just works from XML, and I wont have to constantly maintain for them (for Free). - mikereads, on 07/19/2009, -0/+20My favorites that I've come across:
#39 "Don't use black, we want to make it eco-friendly and use less printer ink."
#40 "Yes, I approved the design, but when you said 'Final' I didn't know that meant no more changes"
#41 "[Site name here] lets me [random tech crap here] from my phone, how come you can't let me do it on my site?"
Also, I find that its is almost a MUST to know what the client is using as a computer. Even if it works on 90% of the computers today, they won't care if it doesn't look great on their old dell from the 90's with a crt monitor and ie6. - moothemagiccow, on 07/19/2009, -0/+18Some gigs aren't worth it. Time spent arguing with obstinate clients is time wasted. If your non-billable hours are a lot higher than your billable hours, you're not meeting your income goals. You might turn down a better gig next week because you're spending too much time dealing with current clients.
- Protonz, on 07/19/2009, -0/+18From the development side, it is best to do the UI first and have them sign off on that. It is hard for them to ask for another feature for free when it wasn't in the UI they initially signed off on.
- chmpdog, on 07/18/2009, -1/+19where do I sign up?
- MrTeQ, on 07/18/2009, -10/+27My CEO is a little marketing - centric. I tried to hire a web designer to work under me and she declined due to 'red flags'. Although I'm pretty sure she was concerned with a drug test (which didn't exist).
We hired someone else in her place. Since then we've had a windfall success in the company. The new designers last bonus was 100k. - phatbyte, on 07/19/2009, -0/+17I'm a web developer, and when I was freelancing one of my rules is to always write down what the project will include, and the boundaries of your work in the future. And make them sign it, this way you are protecting yourself and your client as well.
Most freelancers I know suck at this point, so they've to put up with crappy clients f**** up with their patience and time. - gemlarin, on 07/19/2009, -0/+17You give them comps AFTER they have retained your services, not before. If they want examples of my work, they are welcome to my browse my portfolio prior to contracting.
- eyeWired, on 07/19/2009, -0/+16"7. There isn’t much money for this job but it could really lead to a lot more work down the road."
Argh...how many clients have tried to slip that one by? As if I could walk into Best Buy, grab a TV and say "I can't pay for this one now, but I PROMISE I will buy 3 next month...."
I also try to avoid the clients who call you on a Friday at noon and say "I'd like to challenge you to have this done by Monday..." Hey, I'd like to challenge you to lose my goddamned number. - MylesGrey, on 07/18/2009, -1/+17Here are my interpretations of the reasons:
10. Because chances are it was actually the client with the problem (Not always the case, but chances are).
9. Because that's nearly impossible to do (Unless you use advertising). And it's probably going to be hard to get them to accept that.
8. Because not only are meta tags pretty much useless, that is way to many (20-25 is good). This one isn't the best, since you could just tell them that.
7. Because it's a waste of time (I sort of disagree with this one too).
6. Because something weird is going on. :P
5. Because he's trying to give you extra responsibilities that you shouldn't have to do.
4. Because it's generally pretty bad to do and takes a long time to make (I sort of disagree to this too, since it's circumstantial).
3. Because he is expecting too much from he's site.
2. I don't know why.
1. Because again, he is trying to give you extra responsibilities that you shouldn't have to do. - jakem1, on 07/18/2009, -0/+15Even the one where they won't pay you?
- ATL, on 07/18/2009, -0/+15I couldn't agree with you more!
- tgc1, on 07/19/2009, -0/+15Reading those entries, viewing the video someone posted mid-way through the comments and reading all the comments here about the rest of your experiences; I think we can conclude that most people are retarded. I actually got mad reading some of your experiences.
I mean when is the last time you went to a store and tried to pull some of the ***** these people do? I'll tell you when - NEVER. Because you'd get kicked out or arrested for theft.
I think we dev's and designers plus all you freelancers out there need to put our feet down and take off the kids gloves. We provide a professional service (most do anyway) and therefore should require full payment for services rendered. This ***** people try to pull needs to be stomped out like a brush fire. Any time someone brings up these things just think about stamping out a brush fire. That is the reaction we should have. And if people don't like it -- ***** 'EM.
We don't need to be going to school to learn this ***** or spending years of our lives to learn how to do all this stuff if people are going to nickle and dime us to death. If we let people get away with this we might as well work at Burger King. We deserve better. It's not like we just got up one day and said "I think i'm going to be a web developer today." We earned our positions like Doctors and other professionals earned their place. And you don't see anyone treating them like that.
If these nitwits ever tried that with their mechanic or , I think their plumber I think there would be hell to pay. I don't think it should be any different with any other profession.
// God damned this bouncing input box! FIX THAT ***** DIGG!!!! Dammit!! - grantmoore3d, on 07/18/2009, -1/+15Unless you can charge these situations about twice what you normally would quote, it's not worth your time/effort.
#13. I'll pay you once it's finished.
#14. I have the layout already figured out for you - Benno, on 07/18/2009, -0/+14It's all about managing expectations. I learned the hard way that some clients have unreasonable expectations for the amount they're willing to pay. It's not necessarily unreasonable to expect a custom CMS that can read MS Word copy/paste garbage and automatically generate links for words based on past posts, but for under $1k they can go jump in a lake.
- UrsusMorologus, on 07/19/2009, -0/+13I just got a call where the prospect said it might take less than an hour so would I agree to a flat fee of 2/3rds my normal hourly rate. O.o
Umm no, here's my hourly rate billed for every hour call back if you want me to fix your stuffs - eanbowman, on 07/18/2009, -0/+13I find it's very helpful to have your typical web design process laid out in a document that you can discuss with the potential client.
If you can explain to them the process of making a layout, providing the deliverables, getting feedback and getting paid they typically show you respect. This is because you are showing them respect by making the process transparent and if they are indeed someone you'll want to work for, it usually works out.
If they seem inflexible, by all means pass this one over.
I think the most important thing to be done to protect both yourself and the client is to get them to sign off on all designs and final deliverables. Make sure they are aware that what they sign off on will be what they receive as well. Some clients expect extras such as free maintenance. Lay out your maintenance process ahead of time to avoid this confusion.
This said, you are selling your services and it can be hard to work into a conversation about why they should hire you. I think in the end, the clients you want to work with will understand and respect this process. - DanAtkinson, on 07/19/2009, -0/+12What does this have to do with anything?
- gemlarin, on 07/19/2009, -0/+12@ absentmindedjfwc Yes, you are correct in that is how it "should" work, but the truth of the matter is that is not how the client perceives it.
Flash is a tricky one with clients because they dont understand that without the source code, they cant have their advertising staff, or any future designers make changes to their site without a complete redesign.
I have actually had a client take me to court once because I would not give them the AS source that was not part of the original contract. A year later they wanted to update their site, but found a cheaper designer and wanted the source code (which by the way is the reason I dont give it to them without a huge cost attached). They lost, but it tied me up with court garbage for a week and it set me back on other client deadlines that resulted in lost revenue for me. - AngelaWilson, on 07/18/2009, -1/+12This list applies to anyone working as a freelancers. If a friend or family member is involved, or if they want to edit a Web site, PDF or other document in Word, it's best to run as far and fast away as you can!!! Oh, and if they ask about your payment plan, jump out the window.
- useful, on 07/19/2009, -1/+12As someone who has delt with something similar:
# 13 I want the site to make enough to cover your wages
That is what loans are for and if I could make something to cover my wages right at the start I think I wouldn't be working for you.
# 14 My wife will be taking control of the websites progression
Training a new user will take time and slow down the development of the site
# 15 You will be required to finish the catalog in 12 weeks.
This is pretty simple. You can save $xx per hour if we hire some cheap labor to input the data.
# 16 I will need you to retake all the images and publish them in 2 weeks
I am not a professional and need $xxxx to cover the cost of equipment rental.
# 17 My wife might make changes as you go
Anything she changes will be her responsibility if it no longer works
# 18 I believe in spiritual healing
w/e
# 19 We have rules about the way you work.
***** you
# 20 We are having problems with the network.
My timesheet says I was doing XXXX all day and that doesn't involve the network or your computer. - bieber, on 07/19/2009, -0/+11It seems that in all creative endeavors, charging a lot of money is worthwhile not so much because you end up with more money, but because it keeps the idiots who don't understand that they're working with a professional from bothering you...
- b1kerguy, on 07/18/2009, -0/+112. Because everyone builds with different designs in mind, he knows how he would do it, and will NEVER be satisfied with your design, or for instance, with the way the menu drops down
- Protonz, on 07/19/2009, -0/+11Put it in your contract that you require a single point of contact. Anything else is a mess.
- absentmindedjwc, on 07/19/2009, -1/+12who said anything about "for free"?
If it wasnt something I ***** up, I will either charge them an hourly fee, or charge a monthly flat rate. Nothing in this world is free. - dialector, on 07/19/2009, -2/+12"2. He could actually build the site himself but he just doesn’t have the time."
Sometimes this is true. I worked for a company who's in house people were usually better than the external vendors. They were just too busy to do everything. -
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