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- killerhammy, on 05/24/2009, -3/+171um..uh...lets see here...
no...wait...what?
***** it. (close tab) - maxvette, on 05/23/2009, -4/+122SKYNET invents time machine that can only send living matter through time. SKYNET immediately sends several hundred kilograms of non-living matter through time.
- lendrick, on 05/24/2009, -4/+79The real issue I have with the time travel in the Terminator movies is that it isn't even logically consistent. I'm not a physicist, and I can therefore make allowances for certain physical impossibilities; however, I can't make allowances for logical ones. Consider the following.
Time travel, in order to be logically consistent, must take place in one of two ways:
1. In a universe with non-branching timelines, you can travel to the past, but you are completely unable to change it. In fact, in many sci-fi stories with this kind of time travel, the time traveler eventually discovers that they *caused* the very thing they are trying to prevent. Causal loops are entirely possible in this kind of scenario, but "paradoxes" are not.
2. In a universe with branching timelines, any time you travel to the past, you create a new "branch" in the timeline, and cannot effect the timeline that you originally came from. Thus, in this sort of universe, it would be entirely possible to go back in time and murder yourself and take that self's place, but in doing so, you would have created a new timeline. Your old timeline would be completely unaffected by this. In a universe with multiple, branching timelines, causal loops cannot exist, because you can never affect your own past. Paradoxes aren't possible in this type of universe either, because branched timelines don't affect each other at all.
My issue with Terminator is that it tries to have it both ways. John Connor is the result of a causal loop. He only exists because he himself sent his father back to get his mother pregnant. Sure, it's unlikely, but so far so good -- Terminator takes place in a universe of type 1. At least it's logically possible. The problem is that in the later movies, the timeline is changed. While Judgment Day isn't prevented completely, it's "rescheduled", which means that a new timeline was created, and the show must therefore take place in a universe of type 2.
Only problem is, in a type 2 universe, the existance of John Connor is ridiculously convoluted. Where does he come from, originally? The John Connor from Terminator 1 who sent Kyle Reese back may or may not have been the descendant of Kyle Reese. He may have been the son of some deadbeat dad. While we're led to believe that there's a time loop there, the impregnation of Sarah Connor by Kyle Reese is actually just a random event in the course of the universe. In this new timeline, it's simply a self-fulfilling prophecy. Sarah Connor names her son John, but he's not the same John as the first one who sent Kyle back. If this *new* John were to send Kyle Reese back to protect his mother, *that* Kyle Reese would discover *the other* Kyle Reese already there, which would be really awkward. What's more, simply by being there, the new Kyle Reese would probably cause Sarah's egg to be fertilized by a different sperm cell (there are millions of them, after all, so the chance of the same one fertilizing her in a different timeline would be miniscule), changing John's genetic makeup completely, and making him, again, a completely different man. Or woman.
Regardless, I suppose it's still logically possible for this to happen, so long as you make up a lot of excuses for it. But wait, there's more. Skynet, being as smart as it is, must know already that the universe must be of type 1 or type 2. In either case, there is no possible circumstance in which traveling to your past can affect *your own* timeline. Either you can't change it, or you create a new branch. In both cases, your own timeline goes on exactly as it did before, and thus it's colossally stupid for Skynet to ever send someone back in time, because even if you don't know what type of universe you live in, you're just wasting a ton of time (researching time machines), energy (sending someone back in time), and a perfectly good T-800.
Any questions?
P.S. Bastards shouldn't have cancelled Sarah Connor Chronicles. It was easily the best thing to happen to the franchise since T2. - SpectreFire, on 05/24/2009, -1/+68*opens link*
*closes link* - sanman, on 05/24/2009, -0/+50Bah, forget about the past, Skynet should just send itself forward in time, to survive even if the humans win the current conflict
- dotsam, on 05/24/2009, -0/+43That's nothing, what about the timeline for Primer?
http://neuwanstein.fw.hu/primer_timeline.html - inactive, on 05/24/2009, -2/+37Because the studio wanted a movie longer than 5 minutes.
- bstockwell, on 05/23/2009, -10/+32I was making one but wasn't sure what to do after T3 (shameless self promotion http://twitpic.com/4kqyk)
I do like this one because it take into account the fact that they aren't really on the same timeline after T2 - ousthouse, on 05/24/2009, -0/+18Nice work. (you have to remove the close parenthesis symbol to see it though)
- bromac, on 05/24/2009, -1/+18Terminator ***** their own timeline by contradicting themselves and raped the theme of the first two movies.
First, it was that time was dynamic, you could change timelines. ALA Sarah getting knocked up by future daddy, terminators trying to change the outcome of the rebellion, etc. As of the of T3, they said "HA! We were just *****' with ya. Everything's predestined!" And why would Skynet continue to send back terminators to assassinate someone to change the future...if the future is set?
I know that yes, in the end it's just a plot device, but its the fact that time travel and changing the future were so integral to the plot and the theme. Moral of the story: don't ***** with the mechanics that make the entire plot work in the first place. - FurtThePirate, on 05/24/2009, -0/+17Blew my ***** mind.
- CodenameGamma, on 05/24/2009, -0/+17Doc Brown: Here. Here, let me demonstrate. Let's say that this line represents time.[draws straight line and points to places] Here's the present 1985, the future and the past. Obviously, somewhere in the past the timeline skewed down into this tangent[draws new line and writes 1985A] creating an alternate 1985. Alternate to you, me, and Einstein, but reality for everyone else
Doc Brown: Whatever! It demostrates PRECISELY how time travel can be misused and why the time machine must be destroyed... - mikelieman, on 05/24/2009, -0/+16Because John Connor is ALWAYS near a refrigerator -- so Nukes can't work on him...
- Lunarbunny, on 05/24/2009, -3/+19Nerdinator.
- Phernoree, on 05/24/2009, -0/+14If they sent back a nuke, they would've risked destroying the origins of Skynet and Cyberdyne.
- Smokeydabear, on 05/24/2009, -5/+18What I could never figure out is why they didn't just send back a nuke? I mean they could have wrapped it in bacon or something. It would have worked. Bacon FTW, BTW.
- OneFreespirit, on 05/24/2009, -1/+14Do you want me to break your ***** lights?!?!
- Halsfield, on 05/24/2009, -0/+12one =/= won
- joegibes, on 05/24/2009, -0/+12Very nice looking. Finish it, perhaps? Good job.
Also, twitpic sucks. - xaccie, on 05/24/2009, -0/+11I am missing timeline point P when this parallel universes Skynet "FOX" decides to terminate the series.
- Stoyanov, on 05/24/2009, -1/+10TODO: Need to map out the LOST timeline. *It* will melt your brain.
- sjbdallas, on 05/24/2009, -1/+9Especially since the terminator power plants are apparently a small nuke.
- fquednau, on 05/24/2009, -0/+8Because humans make for excellent batteries...no...wait, that was another plot.
Err, no, I don't know why Skynet didn't do that. - Oltimega, on 05/24/2009, -1/+9Still doesn't explain why they don't send bad-ass skin-wrapped guns back with them.
- borez, on 05/23/2009, -5/+13The revengening.
lol. - Scarecrow237, on 05/24/2009, -0/+7One of the things that has always bothered me about the Terminator movies is that, just taking the first two, mind you, the contradict themselves. First, Kyle Reese says in the first movie that they one, the humans one, against SKYNET. This implies that SKYNET sending the Terminator back was a desperate move by a losing side. The second movie ignores this completely.
All the movies, and even the TV show have one ginormous plot hole. If SKYNET, a logical computer system, wishes to rid the world of humans, why use nukes alone, why not use Bioweapons too. At the time of the first movie, both the US and the USSR had enough Biological and Chemical weapons to rid the earth of all life, not just people, but plants and animals too. Now both sides had agreed that such weapons were bad, and they were working on ways of eliminating them, but just throwing them wasn't an option. If there were a computer network that had an army of autonomous robots at its disposal, why couldn't it have started seeding the atmosphere with stuff to kill off all life? - rogeris, on 05/24/2009, -0/+7I like how they called out the writers on their *****.
- ABadPerson, on 05/24/2009, -1/+8Action film != logical
- dafragsta, on 05/24/2009, -1/+8Primer is friggin' awesome... but it is pretty intense to try to follow.
- ATL, on 06/20/2009, -0/+6and this is where it SKEEEEWWWED into this tangent...
- inactive, on 05/24/2009, -0/+6I'm just glad Fall Out Boy is not in any of the futures, whether it be cyborgs, zombies, talking apes or talking-zombie-cyborg apes. Although talking-zombie-cyborg apes would kick ass.
- bstockwell, on 05/24/2009, -0/+6you can view the full picture on twitpic
http://twitpic.com/4kqyk/full - Sornos, on 05/24/2009, -0/+6That's what happens when a scientist watches a time travel movie.
- freakstyle571, on 05/24/2009, -0/+6Am I the only one who had trouble reading that timeline?
- mythicflux, on 05/24/2009, -0/+6But Kyle's line of 'no fate but what we make' was merely his opinion. Something told to him by John Connor, who incidentally also sent Kyle back knowing Kyle was his father. So while Kyle may have stated that there was no fate, he wasn't really aware of the truth, that everything that was happening was part of a temporal paradox, a literal form of destiny wherein John was created regardless of Kyle's plans or actions.
This is why the movie ends with a line about the coming storm, why in the last scene Sarah gets a picture from the road side gas station which is the one that Kyle mentions having. Because the whole point of the movie was that John Connor (and thereby the Future War) existed only because Kyle went back to stop the first Terminator.
The two events form a massive causality loop where point A is Connor defeating SkyNet so it sends a Terminator back in time leading to point B where Kyle fathers John Connor who ends up leading the resistance in defeat of SkyNet.
As for the Terminator trying to change the future, that was the whole point, SkyNet didn't realize it was creating the future it was trying to change. (which is what makes a good casualty loop) - JakeBC, on 05/24/2009, -2/+8Confusing.
- Tyrghast, on 05/24/2009, -5/+10The new movie sucked, would have been a lot better if they had focused on getting kyle reese back in time, and then the reprogrammed terminator back in time to save John. It would have brought the series full circle, rather than leaving it open for infinite bad sequels.
- jamdogg, on 05/24/2009, -2/+7No one was supposed to THINK about these movies. Just gape at the big explosions and vote Arnie into government.
- Jordan117, on 05/24/2009, -0/+5You can watch the full movie here, btw:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3909854615 ... - ChileanGoD, on 05/24/2009, -1/+6Sheldon?
- Culero, on 05/24/2009, -1/+6This made sense to me: (Courtesy of SambekZX):
"
My theory to salvage all this. John Connor was originally conceived between Sarah Connor and some unnamed dude. The progeny of those two was the badass commander of the human resistance movement. That John Connor is the one who the machines fear and want dead. Once Kyle Reese slept with Sarah Connor, that changed the timeline because now the real John Connor can no longer exist. Of course, the T-800 of T1 doesn't know this, and tries to kill Sarah Connor anyway. T-800 fails, get its chip picked up by Cyberdyne's founder and yet another excursion into an alternate timeline. So it comes as no surprise that the John Connor we get in T2 and T3 is, less than impressive in the cajones department.
T2. Even despite John Connor being a total fake, and the Cyberdyne->Machine Revolution coming much earlier than originally anticipated due to the existence of the cheater chip, the machines find it necessary to send yet another machine to kill the fake John Connor. Somehow, the fake John Connor did something in the future of this alternate timeline to cause the machines grief. The time machine they've created in the alternate timeline is more advanced than the T1 original because they are smarter, due to their earlier development under the the cheater chip-enhanced Cyberdyne, allowing them to send non-organic matter through time. However, because John and Sarah interfere with Cyberdyne in T2, the reprogrammed T-800's knowledge of future events is again rendered irrelevant. Yet, another change to the timeline.
T3. So now we're operating in timeline #3. The lady terminator is the product of a delayed development machine future (but still more advanced than T1's machine future), because Cyberdyne was destroyed and research stalled. Hence, her need for an endoskeleton, instead of the completely shapeshifting T1000 (which is more advanced). However, again, somehow fake John Connor has proved to be a pain enough for them to have sent lady terminator. The events of T3 will undoubtedly create yet an new diversion into alternate timeline #4. We'll see what that world is like in T4.
" - lashtal, on 05/24/2009, -4/+9too many letters to read, but I agree.
- mikelieman, on 05/24/2009, -1/+5Hey "The Terminator (1984)" wasn't so incredibly full of continuity errors. It held together pretty well. Only when they started getting full of themselves, did it start to royally suck.
- geniusNOTatWORK, on 05/24/2009, -0/+4dugg for the Ronnie sperm cell
- DrunkenSavior, on 05/24/2009, -0/+4Hello anybody home? Think Mcfly! Think!
- kmoneybts, on 05/24/2009, -1/+5one of the best time travel movies ever, made for $15,000
- mythicflux, on 05/24/2009, -0/+4Yeah, T3 really did a number on the series. Part of me wish they had kept the alternative ending to T2, where they emphatically say that Judgment Day was stopped and never happened. It might have been against the original intent but it would have be a great way to simply end the franchise on a high note. (Even though I think the road ending to T2 was an amazing dramatic device).
- wpyh, on 05/24/2009, -0/+4Well, they started out by sending a pig back in time, before sending a nuke wrapped in bacon.
Then we get this swine flu, and they think it's not deadly enough, so the experiment's a failure. - mythicflux, on 05/24/2009, -0/+4Actually I think T1 said everything was predestined. Kyle goes back to save Sarah, they get it on, Reese dies, the Terminator is destroyed, Sarah has her picture taken and find out she's pregnant. All of this leads to the future war with SkyNet's creation and John leading the resistance. The second one is where they implied the future could be changed. T3 was simply resetting what T2 changed: that the future is immutable because of a causality loop that always has and always will occur.
- kelalo, on 05/24/2009, -0/+3@ mielieman
In the movie, John asks about the T-1000 and the T-800 replies with "Advanced prototype. Mimetic Polyalloy." When John is confused by that, the T-800 clarifies and says, "Liquid metal." Of course, the two different definitions have nothing to do with each other. Mimetic means something can imitate/resemble/be similar to another thing. Polyalloy, of course, is a slightly redundant term for some kind of alloy metal. Apparently, the polyalloy that comprises the T-1000 is mimetic to the extent that it mimics not just the look of a human but clearly must fake the "field generated by living flesh," as described by Kyle Reese in the original movie, since it was able to pass through the time-displacement mechanism. And if we count the third film as canon (which I am reluctant to do), the mimetic polyalloy covering the T-X was apparently enough to shield the chassis beneath with its faked living flesh aura or something. -
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