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- jordansampson, on 10/12/2007, -31/+104en·trap·ment /ɛnˈtræpmənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[en-trap-muhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the luring by a law-enforcement agent of a person into committing a crime.
Wonder if they ever get sentenced to anything substantial, since any half decent lawyer would get the charges thrown out or substantially reduced. I mean: 1) its obvious entrapment. 2) Myranda right are constantly violated; I've seen shows where the person immediately asks for a lawyer. At that point the questioning should stop. What instead happened was the officer then proceeds to coerce him into recanting and pressuring him into waving his rights. 3) No crime has been committed since all parties were in reality over age. It could be argued that it was all a form of role play, nothing more than a sick fantasy. If you look at the other videos on you tube there is an example of a man caught by this "sting" who lied about being much younger than he was prior to coming to visit. He could argue that he believed that the girl was also fabricating her age (as was in-fact the case) to add to the experiance. The address to the two above mentioned examples can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFmT2n5G8Js&NR . Its obvious that this man deserves to be punished, however this show seriously inhibits the courts ability to punish these men. I mean why punish them when they can have top ratings making fools of them. I believe law and order SVU did a story like this in the past season.
In most cases, i believe that child predators deserve seriously hard and long jail time. However this show is simply exploiting people who were entrapped. Particularly this man who seems to have an obvious mental disorder. As soon as the show saw him walk through the doors the second time, the cameras should have been off. I'm sure there are tons of perverts they could film instead of this guy.
- now i sense a major dig-down (as is usually the case with any opinion contrary majority views) - rawM3TAL, on 10/12/2007, -7/+45I almost feel bad for him, because he looks partially retarded.
But then I remembered he's a ***** child molester!
PWNT! - brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -29/+63@jordansampson
It's obvious you don't know ***** about how these busts are conducted. First, the people pretending to be children online are always contacted first. The predators are the ones initiating contact. Secondly, the subject of sex is ALWAYS brought up by the suspect as well. Finally, the solicitation and suggestion of them breaking the law is also done by the suspect. If the person from Perverted Justice was, say, sending them child pornography and suggesting the acts themselves, THEN that would be entrapment. But, since all initiative is always taken by the suspect every step of the way, it is not, by definition, entrapment. The people they arrest are in full control of their situation until Chris Hansen walks out from behind that door. At any time, they have the opportunity to change their minds and not go through with it. You see some of them regret what they've done, or claim that they weren't going to go through with it, but it's kinda funny that everyone says that AFTER they're caught. There is no "luring" of these people. Everything is their own free choice. Plus, P.J. is not a law enforcement agency and the people on the chat rooms are not law enforcement officers. Only an Amateur lawyer with a night school degree would try to pull the entrapment *****.
I suggest you go to http://www.pervertedjustice.com and actually read some of the chat transcripts posted there. Perhaps if you educated yourself a little you wouldn't be so quick to defend pedophiles. - TheTap, on 10/12/2007, -0/+31If the show was really effective in it's pursuit of justice, there wouldn't be a 2nd offense for the same person.
- jamesgott, on 10/12/2007, -4/+34damn. and i was embarrassed for getting caught just once on that show, this guy is totally ***** now.
- jordansampson, on 10/12/2007, -8/+32This is a quote from NY times (or as you would put it an armature night school type of place) : " Those who raise questions about entrapment, on the other hand, have a point. It is hard to tell from the program whether the suspects are active predators intent on luring children into offline sexual encounters or kinky fantasists tempted by "Dateline" into crossing a line. (Their Web names alone tend to sound incriminating, however. One calls himself "Importuner81.") "Dateline" tries to back up its allegations. One man kept yelling, "We were in a role-playing chat room, dude," his way of saying that he had reason to believe that his online correspondent was pretending to be a teenager for kicks"
- id like to point out the most obvious line here "WE WERE IN A ROLE-PLAY CHAT ROOM" (if you have learned to read yet, i suggest you read my above post to see why that quote is relevant. oh and just so you can read more about it here is the link to the full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/17/arts/television/17stan.html?ex=1305518400&en=c239aea65e6e673c&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss
Once more.. id like to point out that i am NOT defending them. In-fact quite the opposite, i want HARSH penalties brought to pedophiles. However this show hinders that, it doesn't help it.
"Under Ohio law, for prosecutors to file the most serious charges, there must be a police officer involved in the chat or phone conversation, so the Perverted Justice members who took part were temporarily deputized for the length of the operation." - jordansampson, on 10/12/2007, -16/+33@ brstilson
Perhaps if you learned to read you would see that I'm not defending pedophiles. I will quote myself for you: "In most cases, i believe that child predators deserve seriously hard and long jail time". However i believe that are FAR better ways to punish these men (death or castration to name a few) than to exploit them for ratings while making it impossible to prosecute them fully. And its quite obvious you are wrong about your assumptions if you watch the link i posted. Perv - "I chickened out" criminal agent - "you can still come" = criminal agent luring a person into committing a crime = well ill let you guess what that equals moron.
The show didn't even hide that fact that it was the "criminal agent" that was luring him... NOT the other way around. He deserves to be punished and treated, not made a fool of.
PS- if PJ is working in conjunction with law enforcment (as these shows sure make it seem) then its an AGENT of lawenforcement - DatoeDakari, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14I'm pretty sure he's retarded.
- seanieb, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Repeating this for the people down the back in the cheap seats ;-)
"Under Ohio law, for prosecutors to file the most serious charges, there must be a police officer involved in the chat or phone conversation, so the Perverted Justice members who took part were temporarily deputized for the length of the operation."
Deputized means they are law enforcement!
So the people doing the entrapment weren't reporters, no. they were "Perverted Justice members" who where Deputized .....entrapment. - swiftekho, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Let's get this guy his own reality show.
- toolow, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11He seems rather slow. Maybe he should live in a group home, I don't think he really understands that what he is doing is against the law.
- sporkyzero, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10this dude is obviously retarded. to catch a predator is exploiting him and that smarmy host is acting way too "holier-than-thou" for my liking. i think the show is entertaining but is obviously using editing and very selective footage (the curse of reality tv) to craft a good vs. evil story.
- cbdgr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9probably same chat room both times
- Xageroth, on 10/12/2007, -26/+34You *should* feel sorry for him. As far as I can tell he's not violent, he's not a rapist, he got lured into a trap, had his sexual feelings exploited, and thereafter was shamed, embarrassed, and treated as a criminal for something he has no control over.
You should have no tolerance for people who force their sexuality onto others, people who expose themselves, or persistently make uninvited sexual advances towards others... but this guy was invited as are everyone else who appears on that stupid show. He's not forcing his sexuality onto others, he's not a rapist.
It's twisted, but the ones being exploited on that show are the "predators" - Special, on 10/12/2007, -12/+20Xageroth, THANK YOU! Most people are so caught up in the "think of the children" mentality that they can't look at this objectively and realize how blatantly wrong the methods being used are - i'm sure they've prevented child molestations, but entrapment in general is unethical and prone to failure, and broadcasting it on TV is just sick.
- brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Holy cow the NAMBLA crowd sure is active today. Go the damn site and read the transcripts. The people they're "entraping" are actively pursuing minors for the purpose of sex. The agent never brings up any sexual subject. It is always the SUSPECT that steers the conversation that way. If it wasn't someone from perverted justice, it WOULD be someone else.
- bruenig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Says wikipedia on the issue of entrapment: "For the defense to be successful, the defendant must demonstrate that the police induced an otherwise unwilling person to commit a crime. However, when a person is predisposed to commit a crime, offering opportunities to commit the crime is not entrapment"
This appears to be a person predisposed to commit a crime who had an opportunity offered to him. So by that definition and seeing as these prosecutions are able to go through, I would say that this isn't entrapment. - josh1413, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@ Xageroth
"As far as I can tell he's not violent, he's not a rapist, he got lured into a trap, had his sexual feelings exploited, and thereafter was shamed, embarrassed, and treated as a criminal for something he has no control over."
What?? So your saying he had no control over choosing to go over to a little girls house and not? RIGHT...... So you think it's excusable to go to the little girls house because he was invited? He didn't go to the little girls house just to have a tea party. No he's not violent, or a rapist, he just wanted sexual favors done to him by a little adolescent girl. C'mon, don't be sticking up for these sick whackos. - rowlodge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4like winning the lottery twice!... kinda.
- Augie1969, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4If he is not slow, or mentally retarded, he is likely suffering from a serious mental illness (or both). In my semi-professional opinion, he is probably working with a nine or ten year old level of intelligence from his responses and mannerisms.
What he did was wrong, but the guy needs to be in an institution that specializes in working with this population, not the general prison population. He wouldn't last two hours with that crowd. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"But then I remembered he's a ***** child molester! "
Is he? Is there proof that he ever molested a child? Did this ever go beyond a fantasy in his mind? You're accusing him of thought crime. - davedavis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Maybe they should teach kids in middle school not to invite random weirdos over to their house for sex.
- jordansampson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You would be correct if it wasn't for "Under Ohio law, for prosecutors to file the most serious charges, there must be a police officer involved in the chat or phone conversation, so the Perverted Justice members who took part were temporarily deputized for the length of the operation."
furthermore dateline donated more than $100 000 to the organization after the fact... wanna talk about conflict of interest?
I understand that people may not like my opinion, but i respect the law, and know that they are in place to protect citizens. This show PAYED a company who lured people into situations. They were later deputized so that they could prosecuted. common, even though the guy deserves legal actions, do you seriously think that is fair to his rights? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Have they ever done a Older woman going to a young mans house?
- brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3screw it, here's a link to one of the transcripts. You have to be an idiot to think it's entrapment after reading it
http://www.perverted-justice.com/?archive=fleet_captain_jaime_wolfe - nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"My daughter is not in danger from these few examples that get blown out of proportion for the sake of ratings."
Exactly, because your daughter, unlike the "13 year old" in these set-ups, is not begging strangers to come over to the house for a good time. The 48 year old doctor in this one ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFmT2n5G8Js&NR
) strikes me as someone who would have never stepped over the line without the kind of persuasion that just never would have happened in real life. There are predators out there, but this show isn't going after them. - harmonic1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Whether he is mentally ill or retarded or both it still does not change the fact that the he his a pedophile at best and needs to be stopped.
- swiftekho, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5As long as there aren't little kids there.
- fiver22, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This guy really does seem mentally defecient: do we really need to put him on National TV? -He seems to me to be unable to articulate, let alone justify, what he is doing.
So we're left with this sad, mentaly-deficient, specimen -and he makes the news -he makes BIG-TIME network news.
And what are we to take away from this?:
That sexual predators lurk behind every door.
Sorry, but I'm not buying it. My daughter is not in danger from these few examples that get blown out of proportion for the sake of ratings. Sure, I'll warn her that predators exist, but these media-run "exposes" exagerate the threat. And turn us into a lynch-mob.
Yes, Predators exist -but the media reporting (especially Dateline) exagerates the threat -and I !WILL NOT! let my daughter grow up in fear just because she is a female. Instead I will teach her that there are a minority of people out there who would hurt her, and she should be wary of them. But I will never fail to tell her that she is, in general, SAFE from those predators.
(edit: spelleRing) - jordansampson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3listen.. I'm sorry for my remarks above, i type faster than i think sometimes. I understand that you are right. These people ARE troubled and DO deserve to be punished. I just think that the proper channels should be followed. For example when the DR asked "what is the charge" the charges should be explained to him. When he said "i want a lawyer" the officer should have stood up and contacted council for him, then preceded with the questions. When he said "i chickened out of coming" the agent should not have pressed the issue. And I'm still not quite sure how he knew how much bail was without a bail hearing.
- jordansampson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2very sad, but true. chemical castration is my solution ;)
- KMye, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3This is pushing the boundaries of believability...unless he used the same ***** screen name...
- methodshop, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2he doesnt leave bec the cops are waiting outside with stun guns. if you run out they zap you. this guy knows the drill bec he got busted before on Dateline.
- methodshop, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The day after he gets out of court from the 1st time he got busted on Dateline "To Catch a Predator," he gets busted on Dateline again. How did this guy not learn his lesson the 1st time? When Chris Hansen walks out and calls Michael by name, Michael knows he's in trouble. All Michael can say is "oopsy" while he repeatedly rubs his head like he's trying to warm up his brain and figure a way out of this familiar situation. Well look on the bright side, at least Michael gets to see all his friends in jail again. I love this show.
- atockcir, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Chris Hansen is becoming creepier and creepier every time they do the Catch a Predator episodes. I'm just waiting till Hansen gets caught in his own trap. Something not right about that guys fascination with the topic.
- jordansampson, on 10/12/2007, -9/+11One more thing... U.S.A v. Brand, 05-4155 (2nd Cir., Oct. 19, 2006)
guess what the court ruled, grab a law book look it up... heck grab a dictionary and find out what the definition is. - jlebrech, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That guy is clearly retarded, if you want to meet young girls you go to a club or something, and pick them up there.
If you're lucky you might find someone your age. - diggupup, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3disgusting animal
- brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4My favorite part is the guys that say: "Can I just go home?"
No you cannot just ***** go home. You are in deep ***** and will be arrested as soon as you leave. This isn't a speeding ticket, you're not getting off with a warning. This is serious ***** business and letting you go will be a mistake because frankly, you'll probably do it again, unfortunately most likely to someone who isn't part of a sting operation. Face it, you're only remorseful, swearing you'll never do such a thing again, or claiming that you weren't really going to go through with it because and ONLY because you got caught!
I'm not sure the guy is retarded either. Ugly with an insanely receding chin? Definitely. Retarded? Not necessarily. He might have just been talking a little weird because he was embarrassed. - Pottersquash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@jordansampson
""Wonder if they ever get sentenced to anything substantial, since any half decent lawyer would get the charges thrown out or substantially reduced. I mean: 1) its obvious entrapment."
Only the government can entrap, private citizens can do as they please.
"2) Myranda right are constantly violated; I've seen shows where the person immediately asks for a lawyer. At that point the questioning should stop. What instead happened was the officer then proceeds to coerce him into recanting and pressuring him into waving his rights. "
Questioning doesn't have to stop. Law and Order is not law my friend. He has to be told he will get one and that they are on the way, cop can keep asking. As for Dateline, they are not the government and freedom of press is protected just like miranda (spelled with a y). And you dont have to "waive" rights, merely continuing to speak once you have been informed is a waiver, cops dont need to get you to say "I waive my rights" they just have to get you talking again
3) No crime has been committed since all parties were in reality over age. It could be argued that it was all a form of role play, nothing more than a sick fantasy. If you look at the other videos on you tube there is an example of a man caught by this "sting" who lied about being much younger than he was prior to coming to visit. He could argue that he believed that the girl was also fabricating her age (as was in-fact the case) to add to the experiance."
True, but they are not getting him for actually having sex but for the proposition of what they believed to be a minor. Its a new law that some states have enacted, and has yet to be challeneged we shall see if it holds up - GeoP, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I would agree with that, but this guy seems to have mental problems.
- josh1413, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@ Xageroth
I agree with most of what you said. I don't believe this guy was a teen. He looked to me as a young ~20 year old guy who wanted sexual favors from a adolescent girl. That I believe we both are against. I believe he shouldn't of went over there in the first place. Going to the girls house should at least get him charged with intent especially after talking to the girl prior about sexual favors. I've seen this show before, and many of the men bring condoms, alcoholic drinks etc. etc. with them to the house. I for one am glad a show like this is on TV. Hopefully it will make predators think twice about arriving at a child's home. - astutissimo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Doesn't the guy remind you of Tom Cruise? When I saw him, I thought, Oh, it's the retarded brother of Tom.
- Oakes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3jordansampson: "1) its obvious entrapment."
So when Perverted-Justice volunteers sit in a chat-room and wait to be solicited, then wait for the pervert to bring up the topic of sex, then wait at the bust house for the pervert to come, it is "obvious entrapment." Apparently you think it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be substantiated. Care to? - fintheman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3One has to wonder, how beneficial this program is to pedophiles?
What is going to happen, when they start watching this program and wise up?
I could tell you how to not get busted, in part, thanks to this program.
1. Do not discuss anything of a sexual nature.
2. Do not send any pictures related to sex and/or pornography.
3. When you arrive, try not to have any evidence wanting sexual conduct.
4. Do not say anything, and request to speak to a lawyer and go about your way.
5. Do not bring anything that is illegal for minors such as alcohol, pornography and drugs.
There are no laws on the books about meeting younger people online. I could drive up, and meet a 14/f, one a day for a year. The most that would happen if I don't have sexual contact is parents calling police and getting upset, past that, there would be nothing you could do legally.
What am I getting at now?
Well, people are going to see this, and actually think twice when some girl sends them a few pics. While you would think they would use common sense, sexual nature takes over. We all know how power sexual nature is to deal with as normal people, so imagine now, he is thinking twice before he acts on his nature meaning he will figure out how to meet a girl to make sure he does not get in trouble.
So, if he does get caught, it will be much harder to try to prosecute him, because he has done his homework. Heck, he could get away with having sex with the girl as long as he wears a condom, leaves no physical evidence/pictures, and isn't an idiot and confess when it approaches. Look at court records of statutory rape to see further proof of this, you cannot convict someone on hearsay which is the ONLY evidence that would be admissible to court if all of the above was watched out for.
So, are these programs really beneficial at all, or just using shock value to gather ratings without any real thought to the sociological impact it will have by educating sexual predators.
Look at the bigger picture people!!! - nepawoods, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Watch this one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFmT2n5G8Js&NR
A 48 year old Doctor. Yeah, he was stupid, but I can't help but think this was the sort of guy who would have never been a "predator" had the girl not been very persuasive. Then at the end he calls his wife to bail him out. "Don't bring the girls", he says. - themonkman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ brstilson
Pro-Pedophiles and their apologists always show up in force. They are more organized these days. At least there are still hardliners out there that believe that these men must be punished for soliciting children. Even if a young teenage girl was dancing around you naked saying "***** Me ***** Me!", it's totally obvious that it's illegal, immoral, and against all norms of society to do so or even entertain the idea. These men are adults, and they know this. - Wisgary, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I'd like to see how all of you pro-pedophile-rights bitches would fare if instead of the pedo meeting the show host he actually met your 12 year old sister or daughter. Yeah, he doesn't know what he's doing when he's making your 10 year old daughter take off her clothes, he's just confused.
- Pottersquash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1private citizens can't entrap, the cops can.
Notice, the cops dont move in until the perp enters the house, those who dont enter have a pretty good case, but if you went in your screwed.
Hope this doesnt ruin your weekend - sporkyzero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i don't think certain retarded people can conceptualize ethical behavior versus unethical behavior as well as someone who is mentally healthy could. i have worked with numerous retarded people and some of them do use it to their advantage in certain situations. others are completely unaware of social moral code.
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