What is Digg?181 Comments
- apc3161, on 03/12/2008, -13/+53Are my fellow Americans becoming slowly retarded? Newsflash, people around the world are very intelligent and capable. If we don't let them come and work here, they will end up somewhere else. We should be doing everything in our power to encourage the best and brightest workers from around the world to come here and contribute to our society and economy. If they go somewhere else, we will have to compete with them...
People blame companies like Microsoft and Halliburton (p.s I hate Halliburton, but for different reasons) for creating so many research facilities oversees. If anyone has recently read any of the data coming out, you will find that this country has a major shortage of engineers and scientists graudating from our schools. It's sad that this has happened but its a fact. If we want to remain the worlds powerhouse in these fields, then we have to invite people to work here from abroad. If we don't, we will slowly lose our competitive edge which is happening.
I'm trying to make this an non-political as possible. We don't have enough scientists and engineers graduating in this country, its a fact and we have to deal with it somehow.
Having studied mechanical engineering here in the U.S , I can tell you that the best classmates I had were foreigners. We should be encouraging them to stay. So when I see a bunch of idiotic politicians with degrees in English History talking about how we have to limit Workers Visas to keep our competitive edge in fields which they know absolutely nothing about, I just want to scream. - olenick, on 03/12/2008, -8/+31Based on that list it's apparent the following three changes would dramatically change the "need" for the H1B program: 1) H1B's can only work on projects for their immediate employer: they can't work as consultants, and 2) US government funded entities, including federal government contractors, are ineligible from sponsoring H1B's: they have to hire the locals, who are paying their bills. For the small number of companies left, make the Visa entirely portable: H1B's can quit, change jobs, or do whatever else their co-workers can do with no downside to their immigration status. That'd make sure the "best and brightest" had visas to work here, while simultaneously making sure the program isn't just a body-shop pipeline to send jobs to India.
- inactive, on 03/12/2008, -6/+28The top recipients are all companies that are either based in India or have their primary workforce in India!
- etoiles, on 03/12/2008, -9/+28"they have to hire the locals, who are paying their bills"
But H1B holders are paying all taxes, too. Including unemployment, which they will never get since they will have to leave the country if they lose heir jobs... - Devrdander, on 03/12/2008, -1/+16Noticed that to... look at the top officers and they are all Indian...
- peticsu, on 03/12/2008, -5/+20thats true if your definition of a job qualification is being born in america and putting an American flag sticker on your resume with nothing else...
- wTheOnew, on 03/12/2008, -1/+15That top 4 consists of 5 doesn't it?
- rroberts45, on 03/12/2008, -11/+24Hey, they have visas. They're legal. Get over it. Talk to your congressman if you don't like it.
Guys, welcome to America. So, we have this thing called baseball... beer & hot dogs... - ivosilva, on 03/12/2008, -4/+171 - Infosys Technologies... Check
2 - Wipro... Check
3 - Satyam Computer Services... Check
4 - Cognizant Tech Solutions... Check
5 - Microsoft.. Check.
4=5... Check. - cwocfic, on 03/12/2008, -0/+12I'm not sure if you're all aware of the reason why public and non-for profit organizations are part of the list. But the reason is because that sector are allowed unlimited number of H1B visas, while the professional services (which are the majority listed) are capped at 65,000, plus an additional 20,000 for those applicants with a graduate level degree. There's a rumor that this year's applicants will reach more than 200,000
- NotAChickenHawk, on 03/12/2008, -1/+13They are all outsourcing firms - they send a few guys "onshore" over to the U.S. on H1-B's to act as go-betweens between the US companies they've contracted to work for and the bulk of their workers who are back in India. Satyam, Tata, i-Flex, Polaris, all fit the bill.
- peticsu, on 03/12/2008, -9/+21you can either accept H1B visas or you can have some of the largest companies ship their jobs to Canada because of their lax immigration policy...not sure youll complain then, when theyll go pay their taxes over there...
http://www.news.com/Microsoft-sings-O-Canada-amid- ... - matu4251, on 03/12/2008, -0/+11well read this: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_11 ...
the reason given for the top companies is very very different from what you are saying. Looks more like it because they are cheaper :) (I'm only referring to the top 2-3 on the list).
I also work in the silicon valley... and I used to be here on H1B. Most companies use this program as it was designed. But you have to admit by looking at the numbers that some are perverting the system. Not only isn't it helping the american economy it's harming it. Infosys, Wipro and Satyam might put an end to the H1B program because of their greediness. They should be investigated and have to pay penalties for robbing US tax payers. - d3sp, on 03/12/2008, -0/+10Infosys headquarters
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47 ... - PeppermintPig, on 03/13/2008, -0/+10Digging has been outsourced. :P
- alex7575, on 03/12/2008, -8/+17I'm not an artificially-born American, but I find your comment offensive...
- randallburns, on 03/13/2008, -2/+11The basic problem is that almost every other US occupations pay more than world market wages. If you want Americans go into science and technology, the financial rewards will have to be comparable to the same time invested in something like going to law school.
The countries with relatively successful guest worker programs(Singapore is an example) go to significant effort to make sure that these programs don't lower the wages of locals as much as H-1b expansion has done in the US. Now, in Singapore, a company can get a visa quickly, but they will pay substantially for that privilege.
US immigration rights in today's world are quite valuable. You could theoretically replace every American worker with some foreign worker brighter, better looking and more obedient than the people with that job today. The US gets 10 Million applicants for the visa lottery program every year. Now, it isn't obvious to me that if you did replace the American work force that you'd get the result you want.
Similarly you just won't get more scientist and engineers by a loose immigration policy in that area-you'll just encourage Americans to find other lines of work. - thepeacemaker, on 03/12/2008, -8/+16Any programmer in the US who claims H1Bs have better or more opportunities or are taking their jobs should be banned from ever going near a computer. H1Bs especially from India have it the worst as they cannot switch jobs, advance their careers, and if they apply for a citizenship they have to wait at least 10+ years for it. If there is anything people here need to be worried about it's the flow of jobs going OUT of the US and not H1Bs working IN the US and spending their money here.
- PeppermintPig, on 03/13/2008, -0/+7But there ARE many US engineers trying to find jobs now, particularly with the economic slowdown. US employees tend to ask for more, so I'm not certain that your cost of employment argument is consistently true.
That doesn't disqualify the point you make about education: Education in the US is in decline and there will be a deficit of skilled labor in these industries. Wealth is not a limited commodity: We could have more skilled labor jobs available for all those seeking them, domestic or abroad. But in order for this to happen, we need to get politicians and bureaucrats out of these industries. Anti-competitive regulation hurts everyone. - deadsenator, on 03/13/2008, -0/+7There is a problem here that is not being considered. These best and brightest come here for only a few years. They then return home to the country of their origin with reduced salary and perform their job from afar for however long they have to to satisfy their 'servitude.' It is a short term gain and is a large benefit for the company employing them as they do not have to pay American level wages. We remember the giant vacuum sucking money to China and leaving plastic objects behind. Well, the paycheck still leaves the States, so it helps contribute to our economic woes on that level. It would mean one less American gainfully employed or at least working in a job that doesn't involve a drive through.
Instead, we should be giving serious consideration in training and promoting from within our own citizens. You know, those brat kids. Teaching more of our own youngsters the skills to compete in today's society instead of cramming Hanna Montana and American Idol down their throats constantly. Garbage in, garbage out people. Why aren't we encouraging companies to value and properly compensate our own graduating engineers? We should be especially pushing alternating energy technologies. In this manner, the engineers will always be here and have a vested interest in their own future. Seems simple to me.
I realize their are millions of very intelligent folks wanting to come here (and I love their food/ideas/points of view/etc, but I think their should be harsher limits on H1-B visas. I also realize that we risk losing companies in America if we make it tougher, but I would rather risk that avenue. Some other bright person might just step up in their place since we would be replenishing and creating our own trained workforce constantly. We are resisting growing our own talent at home and that is the only real sustainable way to go. It's just not as profitable. - zythus, on 03/13/2008, -2/+9Let me just say, that as someone who has to work with some of these H1B people, they also have a very large tendancy to *not* know what they are doing, especially in terms of server support. It's a nightmare dealing with them day in and day out. They often don't even properly know the basics, and seem incapable of going beyond their checklist in troubleshooting problems.
- triscuitbiscuit, on 03/12/2008, -2/+9I like how half of them are universities... Are these professors or grad students though?
35 is interesting... Baltimore Public Schools- why would they need all the visas? - nalimca, on 03/12/2008, -2/+8One interesting point is that H1B's used by universities don't count towards the 65K annual cap. So the top 7 Indian consulting companies are using ~20% of that quota. No wonder Microsoft complains!
- mandarin, on 03/12/2008, -1/+7err thats employment dude not grad studies. No wonder they didnt accept you.
- bobzibub, on 03/13/2008, -1/+7H1bs can only last six years unless you enter permanent residency. Staying past six years is a *real* pain in the butt and probably not worth it.
First you have to do the i-140 thing and legally prove that your salary is market. That is where they put ads in the paper etc. Some times you have to switch from another visa to the h1b so you can do the i-140, like me. (Ca-ching to the Government, Ca-ching to Lawyers...)
Then you have to get your i-145 (application for perm residency) but you also have to have shots and medical and need to apply for spouse/chillin's and EAD in case they screw up your h1b. You'd better not be a member of the Communist party either. (Ca-ching to the Government, Ca-ching to doctors, and Ca-ching Ca-ching to Lawyers again...)
Throught these processes you have to keep renewing your h1b, and then EADs. The h1bs can last three years, EADs one. (Ca-ching to the government, Ca-ching to Lawyers.)
Now we also have this whole thing going on with my spouse too because the lawyers or the government might screw up. (She's a professional in her own right.) Some lawyers say you can't have both spouses. Some say you can. That might have to do with: Ca-ching ^2
In order to apply for the i-145 you have to have a "priority date" that is old enough and that is set by your i-140. That date shows up each month and it is basically random. It could be "U" for nobody, or "C" for anyone, depending upon your country, your skill level etc. You have to have the date be prior to your priority date twice--once to get the application in and once for them to actually process the thing. That can take ten years or so. Or not. Who knows? Also, if you have kids, they can "age out" and get to be adults during this decade long process. Then they have to go back, possibly to a country they don't even remember ever living in.
The equivalent process in Canada is a form you can fill out yourself (not the work permits/visas, just the 140-145) and pay the $160. It takes 18 months. If I wasn't Canadian, I'd apply there instead. In fact if someone told me in 2001 what the bull-***** system is here, I wouldn't have bothered. Too much insecurity. Too much expense. Too much paperwork. Too much living under the government's thumb in the "land of the free." Can't cross the border until you have form X539 stroke 7!!! Can't take this or that job because it doesn't match some government criteria. Your career is basically static for that decade--not good for an IT guy. Plus they are changing state rules so you can only get driver's licences, etc for the length of your current visa, so you need to renew it more often. (Ca-ching to the government again..)
So it is not a suprise if people leave. If you don't dig Kafka, it just isn't all that. - bshock, on 03/13/2008, -0/+6Someone explain this to me: I'm a programmer who knows dozens of competent colleagues who are searching -- unsuccessfully -- for jobs in the industry. At the same time, I have talked to managers who say that it's difficult to find programmers, and I'm constantly reading something similar online in regard to H1B visas. What's the deal?
Is it just that most programmers don't want to impoverish themselves by moving to ridiculously expensive places like Redmond? - inactive, on 03/13/2008, -3/+9And when the H1B goes home....when they decide to leave all the withholdings must be returned...because they are a foreign national. Believe me it is a good deal for them. Then when they go back to India they do not claim the tax return. They bribe officials if they get caught, and never pay any taxes on the money.
How do I know this? Because my room mates in Silicon Valley told me all the tricks of the trade. It is a fact. - nirav72, on 03/12/2008, -6/+12I've come to accept it. The corporations in this country will not change. So if I had to choose between the lesser of the two evils - I'd pick H1Bs over jobs being outsourced to other countries. At least with H1Bs there is a cap of 100K visas a year. Plus, there are some government regulations on how much you have to pay an H1B person. Also, a H1B will most likely spend some of that money here in the United States and also pay taxes. If that same job was outsourced, it would be for a much cheaper rate and the money goes to a foreign country. We'd loose a lot more if the jobs were outsourced versus bringing in an H1B here.
- Spoomeister, on 03/12/2008, -2/+7Some of those companies work in turn with each other. You can effectively combine a good 1/3rd of Wipro's number with Microsoft's total number, as Wipro is one of many agencies Microsoft works with.
- thepaulm, on 03/13/2008, -1/+6I wish I could digg you up more than once.
- Olfster, on 03/13/2008, -0/+5nachyaonline is correct. You must be able to meet the 20 years of experience programming Java or 15 years experience with Vista. Ever see those unreal qualification ads? No argument from me that certain jobs require very talented employees, such as microchip design and manufacturing. That is what the H1-B should be for. But to say we need H1-B increases because we can not find mindless zombies to work 80 hours a week programming javascript or even c#/VB for that matter, which is not all that difficult, is absurd. We are not buying that argument anymore. There are actual HR seminars on how to get around employing U.S. workers so that workers can be brought in under H1-B. We need enforcement to assure a level playing field.
- inactive, on 03/13/2008, -2/+7I was told that bit of information by my roomies, who were all Indian. Funny that I would get dug down by simple minded Diggers.
- zythus, on 03/13/2008, -3/+8It's also interesting that any comment that is 'negative' towards these Indian companies / workers is being dugg down... hmm.
- madwaxer, on 03/13/2008, -1/+6Product boycot?
- jamessavik, on 03/13/2008, -1/+5Americans are too stupid to work at Microsoft, Intel, Cisco and Google? I don't think so.
- zythus, on 03/13/2008, -0/+4The H1B's get rotated out and shipped back to India, and new ones replace them after 'training'. In this way, the jobs still do get outsourced.
- s1mph0ny, on 03/13/2008, -0/+4I've experienced foreign professors at the University of Florida, which has an affirmative action-like program for foreign instructors. Most all are clueless idiots.
- dbalaski, on 03/13/2008, -0/+4Loophole -- Contracting firms can hire H1B and submit them to Companies .. Thiis way they qualify ... I know this for a fact -- we have 40+ H1B in my department -- sorry -- its a subtle yet effective loophole.
- quarkie, on 03/12/2008, -1/+5@foolawrence
Maybe you should look at your command of the english language as a reason you have trouble competing with "bought" PhDs. - DutchGuilder, on 03/13/2008, -1/+4Clearly you have never actually worked with "workforce" from Tata, Wipro, or InfoSys.
- Xondar, on 03/13/2008, -5/+8I can hear it now: "They took our jerbs!"
- inactive, on 03/13/2008, -2/+5The taxes paid by Indian nationals does go back to them when their H1B is not renewed. The US government does not have the right to require certain taxes be paid. So they file for the taxes to be given back as they are foreigners.....and they may not have been 100% of the Indians in Silicon Valley but I've heard it from others too. So what everyone is lieing?
- mandarin, on 03/12/2008, -0/+3Cylons!
- gsenechal, on 03/12/2008, -4/+7Lax immigration policies? Not really. More like "different immigration policies".
Also, companies tend to look to Canada for a few other reasons.. (1)Public health care = hugely reduced costs of employment because health benefit packages are cheaper (2) an aggressive R&D tax credit program. So paying R&D employees working in Canada is at least 30% cheaper. - inactive, on 03/13/2008, -1/+4You are a smart kid. The kind of person who should be getting encouragement to get into high-tech. Common sense would suggest that H1B's should be cut off when the national unemployment rate reaches a threshold level. Who is being served when foreign chop shops monopolize H1Bs?
- Trublmakr, on 03/13/2008, -1/+4Modern Slavery.
- inactive, on 03/13/2008, -1/+4Mots of the jobs taken by INDIANS are jobs that a person with a bachelors degree can fulfill. The job goes to the INDIAN with the Masters and PHD who then pulls down the same value as a Bachelors degree. Cisco CCIE jobs were going for $45k in 2002 in Silicon Valley....I know because they were going to INDIANS when I was there last ans many American's were out of work....and they were keeping people from working for $100,000 per year!
- nalimca, on 03/12/2008, -2/+5I don't think that's the problem. The real issue is that lots of the H1B's, mostly issued to the outsourcing companies are used as "training on the job" licenses for many unskilled workers. In many cases, they cheat the system by forging resumes and work experiences, especially in consulting positions. To make things worse, the clients of the outsourcing companies willingly fall for the scheme because: 1. the managers worry about their own accountability; 2. corruption.
- Krumm, on 03/12/2008, -0/+3http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBMNW6EWleY
- mykalimba, on 03/13/2008, -0/+3Anyone else see the irony in entry #102, "AMERICAN SOLUTIONS"?
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