What is Digg?99 Comments
- Sux4Bux, on 10/30/2009, -7/+36Yeah the GDP numbers are complete BS. The US has been on a slow and steady decline since the late 70s. The insane trade "free" trade policies have utterly destroyed our entire economy. All we're left with is bankers manipulating money and credit to make it appear like wealth is created. Industrial policy vs. monetary policy. GDP keeps rising but we've essentially gutted every aspect of the economy that matters. Living off a credit and mortgaging our assets to appear to be prosperous. Just making us poorer and poorer in real terms and enriching transnational corporations and China.
- sc0ttius, on 10/30/2009, -1/+20Scientific community always says "data are". It's common and correct.
- cynic573, on 10/30/2009, -8/+27Grammar Nazi approves of this article's title.
- laofmoonster, on 10/30/2009, -0/+16Data is plural for datum.
- Nchang, on 10/29/2009, -4/+16All people should know this factoid
- HCProgramr, on 10/30/2009, -1/+11The scientists and engineers create what the company will be selling tomorrow.
In sports, it's called 'going for broke'...to hell with the consequences tomorrow, we need all the success we can get today.
If you think GM is bad off now, imagine if they froze product development in the 80s and were pitting the 1983 Trans-am, with its one-lung 145hp V8, against a 2010 RX-8, Mustang, or GTR. That's in effect what getting rid of your R&D staff in favor of making that extra buck today is doing.
Or even an example that actually happened: Look what happened to the Big 3 just in the past 2 years. People started buying smaller, more efficient cars. The big 3 ignored their customer's wishes and kept on churning out ginormous trucks, which reaped huge profits now rather than investing in the future. When the market for trucks dried up, they had nothing to offer, no credit to offer it on, and two of them are now bankrupt. - MyKillK, on 10/30/2009, -6/+15Take out cash for clunkers, government spending, and inventories and GDP was negative.
All the numbers that actually mean something important to main street were negative. This GDP report is a wolf in sheep's clothing. - jason4188, on 10/30/2009, -2/+11The cash for clunkers and free tax payer money to buy a house give away are a mirage for the economy. The economy is of course going to show a little life when you throw billions of free tax payer dollars on to it. The problem is that neither of those two things are sustainable. They will cause some short term results at best.
It is like giving a dieing man a shot of adrenaline and then screaming about your progress as he jumps up and runs about. You fail to mention that he will soon die again promptly as soon as the injection wears off.
The economy went bust because the housing market had grown to a false worth and the banking industry had bought into that false worth. The housing industry then corrected itself and people stopped paying their mortgages. The banks were then left with houses that were not worth as much as the loans the deadbeats had defaulted on. That is why the banking industry had to be bailed out or it would have cause a chain reaction of fear and people would have lost faith in banks and started pulling their money out therefor causing the whole banking industry to fail and with it the economy.
The idea that we needed to go on further to insure car industries etc. were too big to fail as well was just smoke blown up your ass by Obama so he could pass the largest political payoff in the history of the world.
He bought a car company for a union and continues to give stimulus to all the pork projects his dim friends ask for. I don't see how any of the stimulus has any effect on the original problem and that was the housing industry being over valued and people buying homes they could not afford. If anything the stimulus is building another house of cards by giving incentives for people to buy things they can't afford all over again. AKA cash for clunkers and 8k housing tax credit.
It is important to remember that no person or company in the United States has the power to cause a recession or depression. Only government and all of it's infinite wisdom can accomplish such a task. - inactive, on 10/30/2009, -14/+22Rest assured if the economy continues to collapse from here the Keynesian faithful will continue unabated in their assertion that we just need the government to spend more money and raise taxes higher.
- sc0ttius, on 10/30/2009, -0/+8Nope. All the numbers that go into the one data set makes data plural. It's correct!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data
The term data means groups of information that represent the qualitative or quantitative attributes of a variable or set of variables. Data (plural of "datum", which is seldom used) are typically the results of measurements and can be the basis of graphs, images, or observations of a set of variables. Data are often viewed as the lowest level of abstraction from which information and knowledge are derived. - papashawn, on 10/30/2009, -5/+13I don't care if it is proper, it still sounds retarded.
- MyKillK, on 10/30/2009, -1/+8According to my Oxford dictionary, data "in modern non-scientific use is often treated as a mass noun, similar to a word like 'information', which cannot normally have a plural and which takes a singular verb...and is now widely accepted in standard English"
- skags, on 10/30/2009, -0/+7All your data are singular to us!
- kaelyiesta, on 10/30/2009, -2/+9Another failing of GDP is in it's underlying assumption which asserts that spending necessarily implies prosperity.
GDP measures spending, but not wealth. That is the problem. The examples of this aren't the exception, but the rule. After Katrina ***** up cities, GDP went up. When we go to war, GDP goes up. When we enact even more insane drug war policies to torture millions of non violent drug users and sellers in prisons, and build yet more prisons and hire prison guards, GDP goes up. Every time the government plunders our money and squanders it, GDP goes up.
Spending, particularly that not done voluntarily, has a strong tendency to not increase utility. There are many alternatives proposed that would be a good start. Some like Sarkozy have proposed measuring happiness, quality of life and so on. Those are hard to quantify in some standard unit of measure however, which is why the Austrian economists and the Classical Liberal economists focused on voluntary spending in the free market, where disutility was measured in comparative choices in voluntary action could prove subjective values of society one way or the other. Money calculations are a definitive way to measure one's economic determination of values, where they compare disutility of their labor vs the utility services in trade. GDR does a much better job of predicting economic trends for example: http://mises.org/journals/scholar/Johnsson2.pdf - publiclurker, on 10/30/2009, -0/+7This is also why their pensions are in such bad shape. Rather than fund them fully, they played tricks with the numbers in order to award themselves larger dividends and executive bonuses. Now that the tab is due, they cannot make up for the lost time and the workers, once again, get screwed.
- phydeaux70, on 10/30/2009, -2/+9Consumer spending is flat or declining, and investment is down because of the credit market, that means that the third area of GDP which is government attributed to a majority of the numeric increase.
Instead of taking an overall positive they inflate the numbers so it because more of a negative. Way to go again guys. The spin in Washington never ceases. If you're one of the millions who have lost work I believe that you would think this positive story is a crock.
We will have no real true recovery until people are put back to work, it's the only way to sustain growth. - Sux4Bux, on 10/30/2009, -3/+10Notice the quotations around "free". It's exactly the opposite of what it's supporters call it. What we have is a complete lack of trade policy. We've essentially thrown open the doors for our economy to be annihilated by foreigners who do have a trade policy and industrial adgenda. Even if every nation played by the same no government interference free trade rules that libertarians advocate we would still be competing with 3rd world wage levels. But even that unrealistic ideal they hold could never happen. The obvious and historical solution is tariffs to promote the growth of domestic industries and maintain our standard of life. We've gone from the largest manufacturer and importer of raw materials to the largest EXPORTER of raw materials. Monetary policy has been hiding it well but the US has been in an accelerated downfall since the 90s and it's not going to stop until we go back to the trade and tax policies that grew our nation to the rich industrial powerhouse it once was.
- Stormwern, on 10/30/2009, -5/+12Irony: Responding to an article about how economics is complicated by summing up Keynesian economic theory in seven words.
- endlessirony, on 10/30/2009, -1/+7Has anything changed since last time we calculated the GDP? If not where was this when the numbers were negative?
- Dauntless1, on 10/30/2009, -2/+8And why should the majority of America suddenly be happy about the top 10 percent deciding they should be happy about a third world standard of living?
- aforsberg, on 10/30/2009, -8/+14Dugg for the correct form of data/datum
- roddack, on 10/30/2009, -0/+5Nothing like "free" trade agreements that push 900 pages in length.
- laofmoonster, on 10/30/2009, -10/+15You mean Jesus? Oh, right, conservatives act as if liberals think Obama is God.
- HCProgramr, on 10/30/2009, -0/+5@lurker:
Good call...I'd forgotten about that. - MyKillK, on 10/30/2009, -2/+7No I didn't hear it from the media, I looked at the numbers myself.
Car sales alone added 1.66% to the GDP, only 0.19% last quarter.
Government spending increased 7.9% which likely added around 0.7-1.0% to 3Q GDP
Inventories added 0.94% to the GDP after _subtracting_ 1.42% last quarter even though Inventories decreased both quarters! How does a decrease in inventories decrease GDP one quarter, and a decrease in inventories increase it the next quarter? 0.94 + 1.42 is a 2.36% swing in a single quarter!
3.5 - 1.66 - 0.94 - 0.7 = 0.2%
3.5 - 1.66 - 0.94 - 1.0 = -0.1%
Tax collection increased by $4.8 billion while real disposable personal income decreased by a massive 3.4 percent. Taxes up, income down...wonderful!
Defense spending went up another 0.45%
Savings rate decreased by 1.6% over last quarter
Imports increased more than exports, again, further adding to our trade deficit
Take away the $8000 tax credit and most of that 23.4% increase in domestic investment would have disappeared.
There's very little in this report to be happy about... - majoris, on 10/30/2009, -0/+4If growth does not come from new product design, where does it come from? Do we just get infinitely more efficient at what we already do? I feel like coming up with new products and creating a marketplace for them is crucial to the survival for many companies.
- Spindig, on 10/30/2009, -1/+5A lengthy article, but worth the read.
- FallenTurtles, on 10/30/2009, -0/+4Your comparison is incorrect. Datum is to data as student is to students. A class is a singular unit, and that unit happens to include students in it.
Data used a a plural is not retarded, it's 100% accurate. However, modern language has evolved and turned data into a word, as you mentioned, like information that doesn't necessarily have a singular vs. plural distinction. According to the true definition, the article uses data properly. According to an evolution in the language that still isn't completely accepted, data can be used as a singular term, but that doesn't mean using it as a plural for datum is incorrect or retarded. - Stormwern, on 10/30/2009, -2/+6Think you mean GDP 'growth' was negative, and yes, the stimulus package has partly mitigated the immediate effects of the recession, that's what "stimulus" means.
- Dauntless1, on 10/30/2009, -1/+5@bloodweaver
And why is it acceptable that the majority of America should sink to third world status just to keep trillionaires in power? - damack, on 10/31/2009, -0/+4A lot of people do know GDP is a BS statistic and it always has been. It literally doesn't mean anything.
It's a hell of a tool for convincing people otherwise though. - majoris, on 10/30/2009, -4/+7Obama seems to disagree with the messiah, whoever that is:
October 21st:
"There’s no question that the steps we’ve taken have improved the overall climate for small businesses across the country. But there’s also no question that we have a long way to go. There is still too little credit flowing to our small businesses. There are still too many entrepreneurs who can’t get the loan they need to open their doors and start hiring. There are still too many who are struggling to make payroll and stay open. And there are still too many successful small businesses that want to expand further and hire more but just don’t have the capital to do it."
He follows up by announcing more lending initiatives for small business. - curunir, on 10/30/2009, -2/+5"There’s no question that the steps we’ve taken have improved the overall climate for small businesses across the country."
It would be funny if it wasn't so sad, and if it wasn't the president saying it, meaning to be serious. - homercles337, on 10/30/2009, -3/+6No. Genuine free trade would see an even larger disparity in the distribution of wealth. We would likely be a feudal society if capitalists had their way.
- ousthouse, on 10/30/2009, -0/+3Exactly. If the government hired everybody to dig a hole in their back yard and paid everyone a dollar to do it... the GDP would instantly rise $300,000,000, even though nobody actually did anything worthwhile.
- secrity, on 11/04/2009, -0/+2*****, I hadn't seen Mises mentioned recently, and I was hoping that the Mises fans had finally how seen the error of their ways, I guess not.
- superkendall, on 10/30/2009, -3/+5And Scootie wins the award for "person who posts the most links showing they are mistaken" award!
From your link:
"It is almost always treated as a plural in scientific and academic writing." - footbag01, on 10/30/2009, -1/+3If the author is saying that GDP is not a great measure of the state and future of the economy, then I wholeheartedly agree. But it seems to me the author trying to claim that the numbers are trying to dupe us. Don't expect to get the whole picture from a single extremely general figure.
R&D goes down and productivity goes up during every recession. - elipabst, on 10/31/2009, -0/+2"The Government tossed some money at consumers (some of which were going to buy a car or house anyway), all the ones who had any intention of doing it did it, and now the sales pipeline just emptied."
Or you just bridged the gap that has allowed major US automakers to survive until the economy begins to turn back around. So instead of letting a major part of the US manufacturing sector implode and all those dollars go overseas to Japan and China, they're going to stay at home and go back into the economy (and as tax dollars). Probably be a really cheap deal when you factor in unemployment costs. - geekee, on 10/30/2009, -4/+6It's not free trade that killed the US economy, it's the average worker's standard of living. In other developing countries workers wil accept a significantly lower standard of living for the same work. Now, under free trade, there is negative feedback that over time, the standard of living of all workers will eventually reach the same level. However, if you enact legislation to for instance outlaw outsourcing, instead of creating jobs in the US, instead you put companies out of business. So then you add tariffs to counteract this, and consumer prices get higher. Now you have an economy where there is little trade with other countries, and standard of living decreased anyway because you artificially rose prices. US workers can still get their fat paychecks, but the moeny doesn't go as far as before, because they have to buy American, or pay the tariff.
So either way, you get the same result, but at least with free trade, you encourage trade with the rest of the world and raise their standard of living. - FastTadpole, on 11/18/2009, -0/+2OTC Derivatives were probably the single biggest contributor to the bubble and the inevitable bursting of the economy, that combined with the fact that we spend ~one third of annual earnings to service our debt to international bankers and it gets more expensive with every dollar we borrow. The government solution of digging us out of debt with a shovel is ludicrous.
Real assets and innovations need to be produced to create real wealth for the public. Government can serve to lubricate that process by taking back control of its central banking system.
The market needs to be regulated to mitigate the inherent fraud, fractional reserve banking needs to be phased out and usury should be outlawed. Until then inflation is wiping out our savings and we're working as slaves to the banks 4 months of the year. - Mazrin, on 10/31/2009, -1/+3Then it's a Grammar Nazi fail.
Read Mykillk's post.
Data is treated in the same way as "information". For example:
Correct -vs- Incorrect
Information is good -vs- Information are good.
Data is good -vs- Data are good. - Stormwern, on 10/30/2009, -0/+2So don't disconnect the battery until you get out of the desert. :)
"Were going to buy a car anyway" is a relative term, most were probably going to do it within a few years. But if there's ever a time to buy a car from a macroeconomic perspective, it's when nearly every dealership is on the verge of bankruptcy, or else you'd find yourself with a very dysfunctional car retail industry when the conventional demand comes back. - MyKillK, on 10/30/2009, -1/+3Datum is to data as student is to class
But if class can be used as a singular, why can't data? You can, according to Oxford which I think is a much more authoritative figure on English than any of you supposed grammar nazis. - Dauntless1, on 10/30/2009, -0/+2Yes, but where do we start those jobs? We have a real issue here, that as technology grows fewer people are needed to do the same work. What do we do about this? Every model of the future we've seen says we'll reach a breakover point where space exploration and development is supposed to kick in and help alleviate this issue, but we don't fund such things worth a damn anymore.
- UniversalGuy, on 10/30/2009, -4/+6Economy is doing better: The GDP doesnt matter! Its all lies! Obama is not doing anything to help!
Economy is doing worse: Its all Obamas fault! He is causing the economy to go down! - rahga, on 10/30/2009, -2/+4Worker wages have been on a slow and steady decline since the 1970's, yes, but I'd argue that the decline hadn't really hit until maybe 1999. That's a sweet spot when everything was cheap, American goods were still in some demand, and financial games hadn't been perfected to hit a fever pitch. The wages had nothing to do with quality of work or productivity and everything to do with abandoning the concept of single-worker young families. Double the amount of labor in the workforce, you double the productivity and wages stay down because every squirrel is chasing after the same number of nuts. We've got young dual-income family women spending 75% of their income or more on child care, and they absolutely need the remainder of that income to make up for recent shortfalls from their husband... That is insane and insulting. It's amazing that only now are we really starting to feel the pinch of this horrible shift, simply because those with the capital are now intent on holding on to their money until they die. The middle-class elderly have entered into reverse mortgages to ensure that their kids won't benefit from death like the generation before did.
- Ryanw430, on 10/30/2009, -4/+6This article has the most backwards logic I have ever seen. GDP UNDERSTATES economic growth in the US. Transistor production DOUBLES EXPONENTIALLY according to Moore's law every two years; yet, the government thinks "computers" are less productive now since they have fallen in price. GDP is an economic term for the common idiot. The scientists and engineers of the US have done more for the world over the past 50 years than any other people have since the start of humanity.
- superkendall, on 10/30/2009, -3/+5Sorry Scootie, just because you CAN use Data as singular does not mean it is WRONG to use it as plural. Your OWN LINK says you can use it as plural, that it is common to do so, thus you are wrong.
Give it up and admit you didn't know what you were talking about that start with, and treat it as a learning experience. There's nothing wrong with being wrong, as long as you actually learn and don't cling to something proven to be false just because you hate to admit when you are wrong. -
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