What is Digg?185 Comments
- jeremy66158, on 10/12/2007, -4/+75I went to college for more altruistic reasons than earning more money and any good college will lead you to do the same.
- aaaleman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+55Agreed. The things I learned in my undergrad career are invaluable. The education simply made me a more cultured, well-rounded human being. It helped me mature exponentially.
On a more practical note, the fact that a college education allows you to answer "yes" when potential employers ask if you've had a higher education goes a long way for getting a good job.
It certainly helped get me in the door.
I know that some people sleepwalk through college and don't consider it a priority to absorb anything from their classes. That's the only case when college is a waste. - po43292, on 10/12/2007, -2/+33exposing yourself is illegal.
- Molnies, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27"The costs of college also seem awfully high. Maybe it's just that bad in the States?"
Here in Sweden it's free. We even get payed to go to school... - Desolite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21well worth it. i could be working at IKEA still, or i could be doing well for myself as an engineer if i put the time into college (which i did).
i think that so long as you're not lazy, college has a pay-off that you can't get anywhere else. what it does is give you credibility more than anything, as the degree means you are willing to work for a period of time towards some sort of goal - which is ultimately what you will be doing at work.
in the case of engineering, its needed for sure as it gives you a great background and when you get out of college, you'll be surprised at how much you already know when you start getting into your profession.
and my last point: reiterating what aaaleman said, it makes you more cultured, more open minded for sure which is needed in the world these days. - r00tus3r, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18I don't think you understand the meaning of the word altruistic.
- armbar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16Ok, so "treelovinhippie" is giving "AmishRefugee" advice about college life. I think my head just exploded.
- AmishRefugee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15it better be worth it. I think i've just about had an aneurysm trying to get into college.
- soulknowledge, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15The sad thing is, college degrees are nearly a prerequisite for a decent paying job in the US (which is what I believe most people go to college for)... and it's becoming more obvious that the value of a bachelor's degree is steadily declining.. a master's or a doctorate puts you in a better position... but you're still not guaranteed anything
So is college a real investment or a way to get more money out of our pockets?... I hope the former but in this capitalistic world of ours, your guess is as good as mine - lordsandwich, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14"I don't think you understand the meaning of the word altruistic."
I'll bet they teach that in college. - GlenLeafJr, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15This guys numbers are a load of crap!
Sure it might cost $20k a year to go to college but it's not all tuition and books. It's also living expenses. You would have to pay for food and shelter regardless. You couldn't just bank all that money.
Besides what kind of job can you get without an education?
The only well paying job I can think of off the top of my head that you can do without a college education is driving an 18 wheeler. And that job must suck! - Anrkist, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Marked as innacurate, the guy sounds like an infomercial.
As people have already stated, college is more then about money. Wait a few years after HS to go and you'll be mature enough to understand and appreciate it. - GTMopo3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Here in Georgia, USA if you graduate high school with a 3.0 GPA or better then all your tuition and fees are paid for any public university in the state. This HOPE scholar ship is paid for by the state lotto (tax for the poor). So I am going to Georgia Tech for chemical engineering and all i have to pay for is living, books, and food which all get paid for when i co-op with a chemical company that pay me $18 hr every other semester. It truly is the best situation for college :)
- fasda, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10yeah college is totally useless and you barely make any return. Unless of course you want to go into Engineering, Medicine, Physics, Math, Teaching and the list goes on and on.
- CiXeL, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11yes its that bad in the states. its also very capitalistic. over the past few years ive seen community college price per credit rates skyrocket as the masses have swarmed the schools in response to the lay offs. hey we have all these people coming in desperate to find new careers, lets jack up the rates and make a killing!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13A very direct result of university is (if you're an engineer) your mind becomes filled with how stuff works, on a much deeper level than anything before. You start getting ideas for how to improve stuff and make it better. Accompanied with this is an increase in satisfaction in doing productive things. The productive things you do actually mean something now (unlike HS). Also accompanied is a decreased satisfaction in previously entertaining events like playing video games and WoW. You look back and think "I thought that was deep?" Your mind has to work harder, but it gains the capacity to feel more full.
I suspect this is why educated grownups rarely are interested in videogames. I can't imagine that Bill speaks with Steve about how he got to Rank 14 last night. - chedabob, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9In the UK, its free, and we get paid for going. Its for 16 - 19 year olds,so its prolly not the same.
- po43292, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8You'll have a ton of experiences in college you're not going to get anywhere else. And that's a big learning experience in and out of class.
- joemama82, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@electrosoccertu
I graduated from a four year college with an engineering degree, and still love video games. So do many of my friends. It doesn't mean that we don't have the capacity to think deeply, or lack the drive to be productive at our jobs or in life. I don't think enjoying a recreational activity, such as video games, is mutually exclusive with being a deep thinker. - writh3n, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7You guys sure sound deep, I went to college to make more money.
- UtopianComplex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I find it bizarre that all the people on here are saying that it is worth it for the charecter building and that makes this study pointless...
I mean I agree that it is a worthwhile experience for all the other reasons, but to me this still points out a significant problem. College should be a good investment, and if we don't have a system that shows that and encourages it then we are most likely going to see less educated people in society. I think the last thing that our society needs is a further lack of information. - chadseld, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7It's not a gamble. It's worth it.
- milarepa, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11I hate this college = earning power. Maybe, but what about:
• trying to educate yourself?
• building character?
• exposing yourself to different people and places? - po43292, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I'll be paying student loans for the next 20 years.
- kpippen33, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6If you think the average person can get a decent return on there investments you should take a look at this interview.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement/interviews/hamilton.html
Brooks Hamilton did a detailed study on the state of 401k plans. His findings were that the higher the income of the person in the plan the better return they got on there investment. He described this as a yield disparity between low income workers and higher income workers. By the articles own admission people who do not go to college end up being lower income earners than people that do attend college. I would conclude that going to college on average would effectively increase your potential of getting better returns on your investments. - CiXeL, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14not worth it. i have no degree and i work in IT, my girlfriend has a 4 year degree in telivision and film.
when the jobs were outsourced to canada in her field it was a bunch of people working for free or extremely low wages or holding down retail jobs doing it as a hobby for companies in desperate hopes they could secure a permanent position with them.
when the IT jobs were outsourced i had enough experience backing me to keep going for alot longer and only now is if finally catching up with me as the economy sours AGAIN. but at least i dont still have a student loan to pay off.
the problem seems to be these days that there are very few degrees which make you very much of a liveable wage. until that changes, colleges will be graduating hordes of "business majors". - ShadedNine, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Well written, but this 'averaged' look at costs doesn't account for differences in degrees. It's likely that the large numbers and (relatively) low salaries of say, arts grads are dragging down more difficult degrees in programs like science and engineering.
It seems very likely that an art degree (with no followup like law) would in most cases never pay off (or at least offer a decent interest rate on the return), while a similarily priced 4 year engineering degree probably would.
The costs of college also seem awfully high. Maybe it's just that bad in the States? Here in Canada I pay about $6000 a year on average including books. - orlyfactor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4College - the best 7 years of your life. Seriously, is college worth it? Hell yeah. It's a) fun b) allows you to make loads of cash and c) if you don't go to a tech school, there's tons of GIRLS!
If I hadn't gone to college, would I actually have learned how to write code and have a kickass job as a software engineer now? Nope, I'd be one of those IT guys still doing desktop support dealing with dumbass people, getting angry at life and losing all hope for humanity because people can't find the "any" key. So, yeah, as long as you can pick a field that is in demand and if you end up doing something you love because of it, ***** yeah it's worth the gamble. - asauterChicago, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@chedabob
Your confusing terms. Our "college" for 16-19 year olds is also free, but we call it High School. College is a separate institution to obtain a degree in a four year time span, in a specific field, after High School. I believe they call that University in the UK.
I remember when I was in College (or I guess "University"), I took a trip over to Ireland when I was 21, me and buddy met these girls at a bar. They looked kind of young, so we asked if they were in "College" and they said of course they were in College. It turns out later on we found out they were only like 16 and 17. We had to get the hell out of there after we realized we were almost pedophiles... We didn't realize that "college" is synonymous with High School in the UK. It also amazes me that 16 year old girls can go drink at a bar in Ireland and no one says a thing or really cares. - flaminio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4These stories are perpetrated by those who chose not to go to college or those who couldn't find a profession for their degree.
A highly educated workforce is required for to maintain and grow a successful economy. Even if you can some how run the numbers so that you would make more money w/o college and its debts, statistically, you're a pull on your local, state, and national economy. Basically, you're coming out ahead only because others are propping you up.
Lastly, there are many opportunities that will be hard to come by outside of a university. Also, I'm highly suspicious of anyone who would manage to re-create the same education to obtain the same skills and knowledge outside of a structured coursework. - jhendrix86, on 10/12/2007, -1/+51) Knowledge is king
2) Money is not everything.
3) Some people, like myself, do not have loans and are not in debt. I love this idea that all college students have loans and are in debt. A majority, yes, but not all. - shteinb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+41) This article is beyond foolish. Certain things are true, for example going to an expensive middle tier college is a poor decision. You can get the same return from a much cheaper public university. The same can not be said for a Tier 1 school(ivy
league, MIT, etc.).
2)The fact is that opportunities without a college degree are extremely limited. The chances you are going to enjoy what you are doing are miniscule. Lets face it is WalMart a place you want to work for 40 years? If a high school student is reading this, please dont be stupid. With a college degree there is no cap to how much you can earn in the end. If you want to be trapped in a low paying job with no hope dont go to college. For me ... just hope is worth it.
3)Finally going to a Tier 1 school is always going to be worth it. Starting salaries differ, but depending on profession(I-Banking or consulting) you can start in the six figures. This is all beyond the fact that the job security that comes with a real degree(not a ***** subject) is far greater than without one.
4) Keep in mind that those that dont go to college will have to compete with a growing illegal labor force, which will work for lower wages and undercut your salary at every turn. There is no reasonable reason not to go to college. THe only thing to realize from this is that you should either go to a Tier 1 school or a public state school.
5) Oh and yes, college is probably one of the most fun times you'll have in your life. You'll meet a ton of amazing people that you wont forget, you might even learn something. That alone is worth the price. - TechAnvil, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Don't believe this guy boys and girls, he doesn't have you best interests at heart. Let me point out some flaws. 1) He shows the average time in college as 6.2 years. Well, in order to be full time you have to have 12 semester hours (4 classes). At that point it takes you 5 years to get a degree. I can only surmise the 6.2 average comes from part timers, who pay less for the education as well as people seeking Masters level and Doctoral level degrees. The only other explanation is that students are goofing off, in which case you are wasting your own money. 2) Chances are, no one is going to pay you $14 an hour out of high school. With the state of public schools, expect to work fast food for a few years at minimum wage. He assumes a 1.8% raise each year, and that is actually BELOW the rate of inflation. That means you are actually earning less and less each year in real dollars. Personally I have never gotten less than a 3.5% raise, and have had as high as a 13% raise in a single year. 3) Room and board are what is called "sunk cost". Whether you are working or at school, you still need to eat and somewhere you live. Having said that, I could go on and on, about getting value out of your education, choosing a marketable major, and why a Masters may not be worth it, but I think I have made my point. College isn't for everyone, some people are better putting it off until their late 20's and learning a trade. But don't believe this bonehead, he is guilty of telling you only the information that will support his argument. Who knows his motivation, but he is spinning the issue. He isn't the one that is going to pay the price for your decision, you are.
- GlenLeafJr, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9It can't be free, someone is paying for it.
Actually you are paying for it now with your taxes.
I would rather pay for college willingly and know where my money is going. Rather than have the government take my money by force in the form of taxes. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Of course it's frickin' worth it!!!
Student loans are nothing. What are they now, like 3% interest? Tax deductable? Pssh... no brainer. Go apply for any job that's worth a damn and tell 'em you don't have a college degree - watch how quick you get laughed at. I would go so far as to say it's almost necessary to have a Master's degree in your field of study. People treat you different... they give you more respect when they know you've been through all that.
As for the difficulty factor, I don't know about all that. I thought college was WAY WAY easier than high-school. But then again I did go to a pretty rigorous high school curriculum. Seems many college courses were just dumbed-down versions of what I already had in High school. - typo180, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think it depends on your career plans. If you want to be an electrical engineer for instance, college is probably a great idea. If you want to go into some sort of artistic field or certain business fields, then experience and self-training might be a better option.
In any case, it's my 4th year at school and I've come to a few comclusions:
1) a gap year is a good idea to travel or get some work experience and get a better idea about what's important to you. It's hard to make that sort of decision while dealing with your senior year of high school. This is especially true if you don't know what you want to do.
2) It's a great idea to start working on an investment portfolio before you start college. (possibly with the money you made from working during the gap year)
4) Besides just getting a degree that will make you more money - colege is a great place to grow, expand your worldview, learn about things that really interest you, become a more responsible citizen, and develope some great skills (directly or indirectly). The thing is, you have to invest time and effort and find an environment that stimulates you. - JRadical, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I agree, take a look at the averaged salary over 40 years: $51,110. Many make more than that their first year out of college, and in 40 years the average better be substantially higher.
- WomunOfColour, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3University is fun! I don't mind using up 5 years of my life doing something I enjoy.
- CiXeL, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4if you arent in it for earning power than youre committing financial suicide because youll never be able to pay back your loan. there are simply so few majors you can turn a buck with these days.
- peterpatch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yeah I am a Canadian just finishing up my Business degree, I will only be in debt approx. $20,000 when I am done. I can't believe it costs 70-80k to get a degree down there. So I guess the rich kids get good jobs and degrees and unless the poor kids are lucky enough for a scholarship their life becomes way more difficult. That sucks, but its a great way for rich people to consolidate their power! I don't really call that capitalistic. You get free public education up to the end of high school but these days that isn't always sufficient, it should go beyond for those who meet the mark IMHO.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Eh. Depends.
I don't have a degree. I've been working on it slowly and would love to complete it, but my programming career took off almost a decade ago when I was 16 and has been in full swing since. It's very difficult to balance classes while working tons of hours and having constant deadlines (excuses, excuses, I know).
I'm making VERY nice money for someone who has no degree and pure experience, and it's not uncommon that places hire on experience alone when it comes to programming.
I would like a degree, and of course it's more job security.. but honestly, I could probably go the rest of my life without it and be perfectly fine financially.
So it really depends on what ya go for. - Memitim, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7The problem isn't the return on investment but the debt acquired. If you had a full scholarship or your parents paid for your schooling then I can understand that view, but those of us who had to take out massive loans need to go in with the mentality of getting something back. Its just another part of the cycle of debt and one that I have become intimately acquainted with, particular with my last forbearance ending next month.
To those who are looking at college but can't get the free ride, take it from someone who knows. If you are planning a career that absolutely requires a college degree, then go. But if you don't know what you are going to be doing, or you plan on doing something that doesn't require higher education, such as most manual trades, sales, or, my own particular discipline, desktop support, then STAY AWAY FROM COLLEGE. You can think about that crap later, when you have money. But when you are broke, the only thing that you should be focused on is getting that money or that first major unexpected expense will have you joining the rest of us in the never-ending pit of debt. - labmouse42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"So ARE you really getting a well rounded education? "
One bonehead PM does not devalue the sum of college, and it bypasses the incredible amount you can learn from attending college.
Of course, that same education can be gained for a buck fifty in late charges at the public library. - leighj, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I was a college dropout or as I like to call I liberated my thinking, time and wallet from the US institutional system.
I worked at one consulting firm for 5 years and making almost 6 figures and during a meeting with my manager and his boss (less than 2 months at the company) when the he (my managers boss) asked, "What degree do you have?"
"None", I answered.
His immediate and obviously offended response was "They how did you get this job?"
During this my managers face could only be described at stunned disbelief at his bosses comment.
I replied, "I'm smart, I work hard, I respect people and I improve my skills. I put the needs of the clients first and I am a go to guy."
A few days later one of the partners of the company called me to his office. He asked about what happened. After I explained what had happened, he asked how I felt about it. I said (very diplomatically) that I just chalked it up to collegiate elitism and felt that my performance and the company overshadowed any stigma the lack of a degree could have.
When I finished the partner said, "OK but if he gives you any trouble about it let me know, I don't have a degree either"
IMHO a College degree matters little to success... A brain and hard work and luck get you the job, girl and whatever else... There are plenty of homeless graduates and plenty of college dropouts who are a bit rich... (Gates and Jobs come to mind)
I have a friend who got his degree about a year ago and when he asked me for tips on 2 projects I ended up having to do the work for him because his school hadn't taught him anything.
A project manager at my job was a REAL bonehead. He was the kind that had the masters degree and went to THAT really amazing school. When asked what the closer star is to the earth he replied,
"Does the moon count?"
And then proceeded to say that because the moon was in the sky and gave light that it could be considered a star. My 4yo daughter didn't even get this one wrong. When asked the question she replied duh daddy that one right over there... when I asked is the moon a star she said NO cause it's a MOO ON!
Funny that this article was also on the front page at the time...
http://digg.com/politics/Report_Finds_Rampant_Censorship_at_American_Colleges_and_Universities
So ARE you really getting a well rounded education?
I am in NO way saying you sit back and not improve yourself. This you HAVE to do and often you can within a college. But to really get ahead it comes from YOU not a degree, not an alumni newsletter but you... So those who went to college and didn't waste their time KUDOS! For those thinking about it... think long and hard before you pay 20k or more for a semester for 4 years only to find out that you wanted to be a farmer instead of an Fine Arts Major... - tybris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Not really insane, just an awkward example of how the once mighty empire is falling.
- eplawless, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I'm learning Japanese, Chinese and Arabic and improving my programming and math skills at a theoretical level that is incredibly difficult to achieve outside of a University. I'm absolutely willing to go into debt to do so, if that's what it takes.
- GTMopo3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3actually the HOPE scholarship in Georgia requires a 3.0 GPA in high school and in college but it will pay for all tuition and fees for any public school in the state. I got to Georgia Tech and it is the only reason I am able to.
- pr0t0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The rates went up in July 2005 (I think). I locked mine in at 3.65%.
I'd like to add my $0.02 to the conversation regarding whether or not school is worth it. I have about $50k in student loans. Unfortunately for me, I have the same job at the same company I had before I went to school. I believe this is primarily due to timing...I graduated just as the tech-market crashed...and had only educational background in programming/networking. I can't tell you how many interviews I had where the tech interviewer wanted to know how much experience I had coding complex enterprise applications in Java. I just graduated man! Also, you apparently had to have been working with Java when it was called Oak.
So as an investment in my financial future, school was completely worthless. I really enjoyed writing code too. Oh, well. But what school did teach me is that I can do just about anything. I worked 45+ hours a week and went to school full-time. Sometimes I took more than the 'normal' allowable credit hours and had to get permission. I gave up nights and weekends and busted my ass to get a 3.92 cumulative GPA. That's pretty good under any circumstances, let alone while working full time.
I think you get out of school what you put into it. If you are looking for a fast-track to money...it's not school. Experience is the mantra of today's hiring managers. School does give you credibility though, even if it isn't really deserved; any moron can get a degree. As an investment I would rate a degree as a poor investment strictly speaking. You can do much better with that money by delving into real estate, rental property, or possibly starting a small business. - mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Buried as lame. As almost everyone here has pointed out, college is more than just a cash investment, it's something you do to enrich your life.
And who the heck pays retail? My daughter got most of her $32,000/year private school fees paid for by scholarships. Part of it's paid for with a small loan, but the loan won't be anything near the author's $38,000 per year.
And then she's decided next year she wants to go to a State university, which will be far cheaper than $19,000/year even without scholarships. - chronicRick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What about states where there's a lottery funded scholarship for anyone who gets a certain GPA (e.g. Georgia)? It would be a waste not to go to college.
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