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The Average American Owes Average Chinese $4000

agonist.org — This is the real meaning of the vast trade surplus —$1.4 trillion and counting, going up by about $1 billion/day—that the Chinese government has mostly parked in U.S. Treasury notes. In effect, every person in the (rich) United States has over the past 10 years or so borrowed about $4,000 from someone in the (poor) People’s Republic of China.

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  • iraq, on 01/13/2008, -38/+12"poor" bastards are doing better than we are right now! maybe a little loan forgiveness? ;)
    • BassMastr, on 01/13/2008, -9/+23If you really believe that than you don't know very much about China. Why don't you move?
      • EditorResponse, on 01/13/2008, -30/+2Just to let everyone know, $4,000 Chinese comes to ~$500U.S.
    • doctorfungi, on 01/13/2008, -6/+16Wow. Have you ever been to China? Go there and then say that they're better off than you. I bet you can't.
      • sharigan, on 01/13/2008, -14/+9Currently everything of China has improving dramatically! Most of the citizen's lifestyle did improved! I cant exactly compare it to US. But as a country, they have no trillion dollar debt and economically growing day by day.
        • Beveridge89, on 01/13/2008, -3/+18They also have about 800 million people outside the cities being ***** over by the party members in the city, operating a system with similarities to the one in apartheid South Africa (lacking the key part of race obviously, but still a fixed two class system).
          • googleabcd, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1The number is changed to 700 million now, and i guess about 200 million people living in Guangdong,JIangsu, Zhejiang's countryside are having a better life than average Chinese living in city
        • bjornski, on 01/14/2008, -0/+19.2 trillion.

          http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

          /just sayin'
      • michaelb1, on 01/13/2008, -1/+8No doubt that China's middle class is developing. BUT, as with every civilization since the beginnning of time the poor are getting royaly ***** over.
        Side note: I watched a House Flipper show on HGTV last night and the guy bragged that his french doors were imported from China. No *****! Isn't everything?
        • Acewrap, on 01/13/2008, -0/+5I hate to say this, but the poor get steamrolled no matter what. It's just kinda how the world works.
          • Ebulating, on 01/13/2008, -2/+3Honestly, its what they're FOR!
          • michaelb1, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1I just can't figure out if ***** over the poor makes you rich or keeps you rich.
      • sodoh, on 01/13/2008, -0/+9I've been to China. To be honest, it varies from city to city. For example Xian would rival most US major cities, as would Beijing. Another place I was at was Cheng de, and there was a world of difference. Still a 100 times better then some other places in the world I've been to.

      • tim04, on 01/13/2008, -0/+3and the poor in the US are getting treated well? gangs, drugs, violence, there's no fu*king gold at the end of the rainbow here either.
    • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -1/+6No. You are going to pay one way or another, UNLESS you of course emigrate from the US and renounce your citizenship status.
  • mydigga, on 01/13/2008, -4/+326In all fairness, I've spent most of my $4000 on Chinese food.
    • jurnei, on 01/13/2008, -33/+7ROTFL
    • ElAssoWipo, on 01/13/2008, -30/+10That makes 8,000$ to the Chinese.
      • rpgmaker, on 01/13/2008, -12/+5The ones who dugg you down didn't get it.
        • rune420, on 01/13/2008, -3/+3No, because the chinese gave the US govt money in the first place. The whole amount owed isn't their profit, only the interest.
        • ElAssoWipo, on 01/13/2008, -5/+3He spent 4,000$ on Chinese food and owes 4,000$ to the Chinese for other services.
    • JoeJim, on 01/13/2008, -0/+20If the Chinese government buys MasterCard, then I'm basically screwed.
      • uker, on 01/14/2008, -1/+1lol
      • bjornski, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1Citigroup is putting the final touches to its second big capital-raising effort in as many months, seeking up to $14bn from Chinese, Kuwaiti and public market investors.

        Under the proposal being discussed, the bulk of the money – roughly $9bn – would be most likely to come from China, people familiar with the negotiations say. The Kuwait Investment Authority would contribute about $1bn, while $2bn to $4bn would be raised through a public placement of shares.

        http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c6eb81e0-c083-11dc-b0b7- ...
    • michaelb1, on 01/13/2008, -3/+12In reality I get most of that $4000 was spent at Walmart where 95% of products are made in China.
      • weeeezzll, on 01/13/2008, -0/+8Which is a large part of why we have a trade deficit with China in the first place...

        That isn't solving the problem, it's creating it...
      • KniteWulf, on 01/13/2008, -3/+5***** Wal-Mart. It is the most evil corporation in the world.
        • uker, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1agree. Wal-Mart in China is no good. earn big money, treat employee bad.
    • saifatlast, on 01/13/2008, -10/+2Why doesn't everyone who can afford it scrape together $4000. Rich people like Bill Gates or Larry Ellison can get a lot more than that together to cover people who can't manage the $4000. Then we'll give that to the chinese, and no longer owe them money. Seems worth it to me.
      • zephyr42, on 01/13/2008, -0/+4the top 5% richest people in the US, if they contributed ALL of their fortunes to the National Debt, we wouldn't be out of the hole completely. $54 TRILLION is a lot of money.
        • manitoba98xp, on 01/13/2008, -0/+2http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

          According to that, it's only 9 trillion (about $30K/citizen). Still a lot, yes. But the longer it remains outstanding, the larger it grows...
        • uker, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1If US would not intervene Taiwan, Chinese would zero that figure perhaps.
        • saifatlast, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1That's why I said everyone and was only talking about China. And I was being facetious, asshats.
      • ElAssoWipo, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2Not to mention that they have absolutely no reason to assist any of you financially.
      • ogore, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2Why don't the US just sell alaska? it's not as if it used to be yours.
        • AceTracer, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1The oil in Alaska is worth a lot more than a trillion dollars.
    • logiktrip, on 01/13/2008, -4/+1lol?
    • Acewrap, on 01/13/2008, -3/+1You win the Internet with that comment.
    • spankaccount, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1The really sad thing about American is that it's kids digg up nonsense like this and Ron Paul stories.
    • addiktion, on 01/15/2008, -0/+1ahaha. Yeah well they can just pay the bill for all those recalled toys with lead in them. Who else would China fool into buying their shyt if they wiped out America?
  • dotlizard, on 01/13/2008, -4/+26well, at least they seem to have a lot of faith in the dollar.
    • JoeJim, on 01/13/2008, -2/+26Ironically, China's subsidy of the dollar against the yuan is the only reason the dollar hasn't collapsed. If the dollar were allowed to float freely against the yuan, it would crash. This would make it much more difficult for the Chinese to export to the U.S. The Chinese do this because they know that every time an American manufacturer goes under or shifts production, there are frictional and inertial advantages to the country (China) that captured the business. This won't last forever though, and when it lets go, watch out greenback.
      • pauldy, on 01/13/2008, -11/+4Obviously global economics and how it relates to currency trading is not your strong suit. There are numerous "tricks" that have been employed to "subsidize the dollar" other governments employ them as well to prop up their currencies. Once of the strongest methods of controlling the value of currencies is to undermine peoples confidence in the governments that back them which is probably why here is such a well funded effort to undermine the current administration. The real reason for China to participate here is to maintain their trade balance with the US and maintain the consumption of goods and services from the US. As the dollar weakens demand for goods and services from China weakens as well. They simply want to at the very least maintain this level of consumption so they can maintain their growth. But none of this means the dollar would "collapse" unless your some sort of alarmist ron paul nutjob in which case I'm sure the world will fall into turmoil the second he isn't elected.
        • sodoh, on 01/13/2008, -1/+4"which is probably why here is such a well funded effort to undermine the current administration. "

          What effort? They are doing a great job of undermining themselves without any help.
        • JoeJim, on 01/14/2008, -1/+0"Obviously global economics and how it relates to currency trading is not your strong suit."

          pauldy - If you start a reply with an insult, it should be followed by something defensible. I have no idea what your strong suit is, but it is not, quite clearly, economics. Your statement contains two contradictory assertions and one outright error. In any case, you're right - the Chinese want the dollar to remain strong against the yuan. That is why they're the biggest holder of U.S. debt (did you read the article?) If they ever become net-sellers of that debt then, yes, the dollar will collapse. It's just mathematics. Don't be such a tool.
          • pauldy, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1Your absolutely wrong about the dollar collapsing if those security instruments are transfered. Your assuming they are the only controlling factors of the value of currency and they simply are not. I have lost way more than my fair share of money in the 4ex market enough to make me very aware of the controlling forces that have a recognizable impact on their values. I can tell you for certain that as various investments move around from country to country the value of those currencies rarely changes in the direction you might expect. This little blog post is hardly an article and it simply takes a quote from an article I have read and loathed as it spent more time fluffing the fairness of the numbers instead of looking how it has created an investment community in china and brought them into the world stage of global business. Also, outline what you think is in conflict or error and I will explain them so you can better understand.
      • pleasureismine, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1If what you say is indeed true, why is Walmart not taking precaution instead of forever growing?
      • brad3378, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1I could be wrong, but I don't think the Yuan is tied to the Dollar any more.
        please correct me if I'm wrong.
        • JoeJim, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1While the Chinese government has begrudgingly adjusted downward the "band," or general trading area of the yuan against the dollar, in the face of U.S. pressure, it still maintains an overvaluation of the dollar against the yuan through a pegging program that involves, mostly, open market purchases of dollar-denominated debt.
          • avengingturnip, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1Yeah, and be thankful for that too. Right now it is about the only thing keeping the bottom from dropping out of the dollar.
    • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -1/+3No they dont but by now, having fallen for the dollar ponzi scheme, what are they to do? If they fart loudly the dollar scam falls apart.
      • JoeJim, on 01/13/2008, -0/+2Good point. The Chinese are "whistling past the graveyard," as the old saying goes.
    • sporg, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2 There is no trade surplus because there never was any trade to begin with.
  • Fletchex, on 01/13/2008, -6/+202*****, I left my wallet in Iraq.
    • Satanscock, on 01/13/2008, -2/+16Thats funny....ouch!
    • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -1/+11But you still have 2 kidneys, right?
      • zephyr42, on 01/13/2008, -0/+9Damned candy mountain got one of mine....
      • slayerab, on 01/13/2008, -1/+22 Kidneys? What if I don't cough up 4000 bucks am I supposed to let some Chinese person fly over here and punch me in the kidneys to cough up american blood?
    • weeeezzll, on 01/13/2008, -0/+5The check is in the mail?
    • pleasureismine, on 01/14/2008, -3/+1How does this stupid ass comment get digged???
      • thedragon4453, on 01/14/2008, -0/+2How do you actually type "digged" and not see a problem with it?
  • sedek89, on 01/13/2008, -4/+16cmon what do you expect they dominated the Eastern world for centuries previously its only a matter of time before it happens again so tighten those belts people...
  • zdlatham, on 01/13/2008, -23/+15pretty ignorant take on macro economics.
  • luke16, on 01/13/2008, -15/+6Cool, so when do i get my money?
    • ajskhan, on 01/13/2008, -5/+14at the rate america is going...never...
    • getrealnow, on 01/13/2008, -12/+3chopsticks
    • KraigR, on 01/13/2008, -2/+8never
    • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -1/+11So ... the US is going to default on its loans, like the USSR did early 20th century?
      • elipabst, on 01/13/2008, -1/+5Doubtful, we still have 3 times the GDP of the next largest economy. It's more like Warren Buffet maxing out a credit card.
        • Ebulating, on 01/13/2008, -1/+4Exactly, national debt as a percentage of GDP is still pretty low and a lot lower then some countries like Japan.
    • weeeezzll, on 01/13/2008, -2/+4You get your money each and every day in the form of cheaper cost of goods.
      • bjornski, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1I'd rather pay a little more for my goods, if I was one of the people being paid to make them.
  • doctorfungi, on 01/13/2008, -17/+27The headline is a little misleading. It's really not that simple at all.
    • jongos, on 01/13/2008, -1/+8Of course it's not that simple. That's why it's a headline.
      • kindpastor, on 01/13/2008, -2/+4What he means is, the Average American doesn't really owe the average Chinese $4000 dollars, the headline seems to be designed to scare people.
  • hmunkey, on 01/13/2008, -3/+42Debt is a major problem however. I really hope that our next president, whoever it may be, will make this a top issue. America is falling behind now, and that is something I don't want to see.
    • rpgmaker, on 01/13/2008, -16/+5I do.
    • elint6, on 01/13/2008, -8/+8I think our debt is awesome. If all the "bonds" we've given to the Chinese never get liquidated in the U.S., then we've basically exchanged real goods and services for a piece of paper! If they do get liquidated, it obviously won't come now when the dollar is weak. I think our debt was a big SNAFU, but I just don't see how much of a burden it'll really put on future generations. Corporations and countries don't die; they can delay payment of principal forever
      • ScottMitchell, on 01/13/2008, -2/+2Or what if we just declare BK? Then we get all these goods and services for FREE! FREE, I say!
        • Shananra, on 01/13/2008, -0/+4Then they would declare war on us, but hey, if there's one constant in recent American history that's war.
          • Beveridge89, on 01/13/2008, -2/+3China can't reach the US. It would be scary for Americans for all of about four minutes until it was realised China isnt insane enough to destroy itslef by throwing some nukes at America.
          • bjornski, on 01/14/2008, -0/+2They won't have to declare war.

            Just stop shipping stuff to us for 6 months.

            We'd die.
        • sodoh, on 01/13/2008, -0/+6They don't have to declare war on you. They can use those bonds to buy up US companies and businesses when the price of the $ is close to worthless.

          Also with the $ in the toilet they wouldn't have to go to war, it would just feel like you did.
    • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -16/+5I *rrrreally* like see the US fall behind. Better still, I'd like to see my friends emigrate and the US become a giant radioactive parking lot.
      • michaelb1, on 01/13/2008, -8/+4Get off digg. All opinions are allowed here except that one. Nobody here wants out country destroyed except you.
        • michaelb1, on 01/14/2008, -0/+3Based on my comments being dug down I guess I stand corrected. There really is an F' America contingent on digg.
    • jksturm, on 01/13/2008, -11/+7Ron Paul....just sayin
      • TwiztOG43, on 01/13/2008, -3/+5don't know why your getting Digged down. hes the ONLY one who has the balls to even touch this subject. all the other candidates just says "9/11" and the audience claps!
      • bjornski, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1Yup. Ron would make it even easier to outsource your manufacturing to China. I mean, who are YOU to tell anyone where they have to make their goods. If someone can save 50% in labor costs, they'll do it, and he'd do nothing to stop it.

        He wouldn't help matters in the least.
    • BeyondGoodNEvil, on 01/13/2008, -2/+12Ron Paul is the only one who has even acknowledged the problem. The rest are for more spending.
  • thepowerofdigg, on 01/13/2008, -16/+19Dugg down. I'm not a future economist but it is NOT that simple at all. Thanks to all the advancements in communication, this is an instantaneous economy for all humanity so things are going to work a lot differently than in the past. It is in every country's best interests to NOT rock the boat. Example is that what China does to hurt us money wise will bite them and the rest of the countries that they trade with right back.
    • nycmac247, on 01/13/2008, -4/+3Please name 5 products made in the USA that Chinese people buy
      • michaelb1, on 01/13/2008, -4/+4Marlboro, Windows ($3 a copy), Levi's, Hollywood movies (the ones not govt censured).
        Can't think of 5th one.
        • rune420, on 01/13/2008, -1/+4Coca Cola.
          • bjornski, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1They don't ship it to there.

            It's made there, by a company based in America. Their buying Coke doesn't help one single US worker.
        • tidu, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2the Tiddy Bear
        • ordig, on 01/13/2008, -0/+6no they pirate all that stuff.
        • sodoh, on 01/13/2008, -0/+3There is nothing in America that don't have something made in China in it or used to create that product.
        • TwiztOG43, on 01/13/2008, -0/+2yup, Windows does not count.
        • bdbr, on 01/13/2008, -1/+1China is the US's 3rd largest export market, so we export a LOT there. A lot of capital goods (e.g. tractors, medical equipment and electrical machinery), industrial supplies, and technology.
      • whimmel, on 01/13/2008, -2/+1Buick
      • judgeFire, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2SIVs
    • vanodorf, on 01/13/2008, -0/+2Things are different now. That's what they said before the .com bust too.
    • uker, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2you forget last time ban on chinese underwear caused such complaint from us people, while Chinese can turn to buy their own product, or European made.
      one thing i agree, is the article is very simple to deal this question. it suggests a Chinese threat ?
    • OrangeTide, on 01/13/2008, -0/+4It's true that interconnected trade and coupled economies seems to encourage peace. On the other hand huge trade deficits and national debt will have serious long term consequences for American's standard of living. I hope you all choose a president and representatives that will start nudging you in the right direction instead of continuing your downward slide.
    • rarson, on 01/13/2008, -1/+1Yeah, but this whole system of debt is so ridiculous. Nobody can risk screwing themselves over because it's so fragile and about to implode. The whole world plays along with this ridiculous idea of fiat currency (China, by the way, was the first country to ever use paper for fiat money) and because of that, the whole world is going to be screwed when it blows up in our faces.

      The only way we can stop that from happening is if we return to sound money (I know, it sounds like a broken Ron Paul record, but I'm not saying it because of him, I'm saying it because it's true).
      • Bleahdom, on 01/14/2008, -0/+3China did use paper money, but stopped using it because an Emperor during the Ming dynasty was like Bush and couldn't understand the concept that paper money isn't real.
        • rarson, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1I wasn't really trying to imply anything or something like that, I just wanted to mention the fact.
      • darienphoenix, on 01/14/2008, -1/+4Jesus Christ.

        You Ron Paul supporters really are nuts. Please, take an economics lesson.
        • rarson, on 01/14/2008, -1/+1What the hell are you talking about? Please. Tell me how our current system isn't an absolute mess. Tell me how it's a good thing that we use fiat currency and the Fed just prints however much money the government wants. I'M nuts? I don't think so.

          The more money we print, the less value it holds. This is the fact of fiat currency. Runaway government spending creates the need for constant inflation. Constant inflation punishes people who SAVE by eroding their wealth, while it rewards people who go into debt for the opposite reason. It is no coincidence that the US is deeper in debt than ever, because the system we use has been fostering this reckless spending. The lenders encourage people to take out mortgages they can't afford, and when it collapses, we bail the lenders out so they can continue bad business practices.

          Ron Paul has nothing to do with my views on economics, other than the fact that his views are very similar to mine. The only reason I even mentioned him is because he's been harping on it so much and I didn't want people to think that I'm only saying it because of him. I knew what I know about economics a long time before I knew anything about Ron Paul. That's the entire reason I support him, because he says things that make sense that I agree with.
  • getrealnow, on 01/13/2008, -7/+18Is not like we are in debt and our economy is ***** right now! We can pay it off..... oh wait...
    • jasmin888, on 01/13/2008, -0/+4No need to worry. With the rate the dollar is falling now that debt is reduced to next to nothing in a few years ;)
  • Eryin, on 01/13/2008, -29/+34Does this mean I, as a Chinese citizen, get to claim $4000 off any American
    If so, ***** YEAH!
    • jasmin888, on 01/13/2008, -1/+5You better hurry before the dollar hits zero.
      • rarson, on 01/13/2008, -0/+2Why do you think they keep debasing it? Eventually our debt will be worthless, and the dollar will be Monopoly money.
    • jongos, on 01/13/2008, -2/+4I've got $1.50 for ya.
  • ElBoss, on 01/13/2008, -12/+76That's the problem with borrowing $2,000 off a Chinese. Half an hour later, you want to do it again.
    • an0nym0uz, on 01/13/2008, -24/+4LAmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerr
    • BoneStamp, on 01/13/2008, -5/+10I do not know why you are getting dugg down... that is ***** hilarious.
    • michaelz92, on 01/13/2008, -4/+4haha i really enjoyed that comment, thank you
    • S1ngular1ty1, on 01/13/2008, -2/+3Brilliant !
  • LmaoTzu, on 01/13/2008, -9/+3B.O.H.I.C.A.
  • OffPiste, on 01/13/2008, -19/+8Yeah but that's only .000003 cents per chinese citizen. That doesn't sound too bad.
  • pstroll, on 01/13/2008, -25/+8I can't wait for China to kick America's ass in WWIII
    • mastaphoo, on 01/13/2008, -11/+9you down-diggers act as if you think we ACTUALLY have the "best army in the world." we have an army of one, people. they have an army of millions. and so what if we have nukes? they could line up along the west coast and march right across our country. granted, we'd probably nuke their whole country and thus get ourselves nuked before they could, but still it works as a mental image.
      • noahhoward, on 01/13/2008, -4/+10You don't seem to know anything at all about the differences between our military and theirs. China has a larger army that won't matter much against our air force and navy. They sure as hell couldn't line up on our coast, they wouldn't make it half way. People lately seem to make the mistake of comparing our military performance in Iraq to our military performance when we're not trying to be careful
      • Beveridge89, on 01/13/2008, -1/+7There is more to it than numbers. Unless Canada or Mexico decides to ***** you over for a laugh, China coulsdnt even land in the west coast; they'd be blown out of the water way before that.

        The best comparison I can think of is the British Empire at its height. We relied on having a much stronfer navy to keep us safe while not having as strong a ground army as our continental navies. The difference is, Britain was regularly challenged by the Americans, Spanish and Germans to maintain the strongest navy; no nation comes close to outclassing the US navy.
        • mirunit, on 01/13/2008, -1/+3"Unless Canada or Mexico decides to ***** you over for a laugh"

          Mexico can go ahead and mess with Texas, we saw what happened last time. As for Canada, they are a strong member of NATO and they would never be a possibility. You are correct in your assessment of the US Navy though, their attack submarines would wreak complete havoc on any attempted mass movement. China is still a regional military power - not a global.
          • Beveridge89, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1I wasnt saying they would. By saying 'For a laugh' I was meaning they have on other incentive to screw with the US.
        • uker, on 01/13/2008, -5/+1If US beat China, America will expect half the population immigrate or smugled to the land. then they will destruct US from inside in 50 years' time. finally US's name changed to P.R.China.
    • smackhero, on 01/13/2008, -2/+3I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. -- Einstein
    • ordig, on 01/13/2008, -6/+1When was the last time china invaded another country, besides Tibet?
  • JoeJim, on 01/13/2008, -19/+11$4,000. In other words, the average American is only 1 month's income away from debt freedom? That number really puts things in perspective, unless you're stumping for Ron Paul.
    • Lazrath, on 01/13/2008, -1/+14or 4 to 3 months depending on which state you work in, for those working min wage jobs just scraping by

      or longer if you consider their daily and monthly expenses, medical, children, etc.
      • JoeJim, on 01/13/2008, -2/+6The odd thing about the "average American" is that no matter what state he lives in he still makes the average. To your point, the American who makes a below-average income earns an income that is below average. Regardless of what state he's in.
        • tinselt0wn, on 01/13/2008, -3/+2below average goes a lot further in podunk, alabama than in, say, NYC
          • bjornski, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1No it doesn't.

            If the "average" wage in each area is enough to pay half a mortgage, those making below that amount are still screwed.

            In both cities.
        • JoeJim, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2In both cases, below-average goes about as far as China.
        • pleasureismine, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1lmao
    • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -2/+2Yah and about 3 second for the members of the Hilton family.
    • bjornski, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1I wish I could get a job making $4k a month.
  • broysox, on 01/13/2008, -4/+19That's a hell of a lot of pork fried rice.
  • ShyGuy91284, on 01/13/2008, -3/+3Didn't I read a an article not that long ago here that said that the middle class is expected to explode in China over the next few decades or so? I'm not all that concerned for them. After living on borrowed money for a while, I think I need to consider how I'm going to deal when layoffs start happening and my college loan financers are chewing at my ass to get money from me I may not have.
    • jasmin888, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1Move to China, become a Chinese citizen, claim your part of the debt from your financers. As easy as creating democracy in the Middle East.
    • fatdog789, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1Just wait until China's economy collapses in about 20 years when all the old people retire or die off and there's not enough younger people to replace them. It'll make Europe's gentrification look like a baby boom.
      • Ebulating, on 01/13/2008, -0/+2Also China's complete disregard for the environment in favor of economic growth will eventually bite then in the ass too.
        • uker, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1China is big enough to use its natural resources for more than 20 years.
  • Emnsta, on 01/13/2008, -15/+5Where ma money bitch?
    But seriously this is Communist China this money will probably go to weapons or greedy officials.
    Seems like the Chinese are getting back on their feet after having their legs broken by the Europeans and Japs. Hopefully theyll become a democracy soon.
    • sensoukami, on 01/13/2008, -0/+7"this money will probably go to weapons or greedy officials." -> Sounds like the Bush White House to me....
    • mirunit, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1They are pushing alot more into the military (proportionally) and no doubt in a nation of 1.3 billion there are numerous corrupt officials, a totalitarian type system does indeed usually amplify this. As for a democracy, I assume in the next 25 years that might start to become a reality.
    • uker, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1communist China> did u survive world war 2
  • davidave, on 01/13/2008, -9/+3so what does this mean for chinese americans...net zero?
  • EXreaction, on 01/13/2008, -2/+10// Wonders what will happen if the dollar completely crashes and they get pissed off.
    • duckyinc, on 01/13/2008, -1/+1then it you are about to get a chinese president
  • SemiSarcastic, on 01/13/2008, -12/+35*knock on the door*
    Me: "Hey Chang hows it going?"
    Chang: "You got my money?"
    Me: "Uh...wh...what are you talking about?"
    Chang: "That money I gave you where is it!?"
    Me: "Hey I told you I'd get it later I just need more time"
    *takes out a gun*
    Me: "Hey, you know what? I think my bank is still open today!"
    Chang: "Great! Hey, you mind if we stop at a few more places? There's some other people I need to talk to."
    Me: "That sounds awesome!"
    • an0nym0uz, on 01/13/2008, -17/+3LAMEeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrr
    • korvan504521, on 01/13/2008, -20/+1Actually its more like:
      Chang: "You got my money?"
      Me: "Nope"
      Chang: "uh, please or I'll uh, do something to you"
      Me: "Smithers! Release the hounds!" /slam
      • EmperorCheese, on 01/13/2008, -1/+4Ok, US defaults on a loan. This would cause a massive exodus away from any sort of debt instrument, causing the dollar's value to collapse. This would require the fed to raise interest rates dramatically in order to try to regain some of that value. The economy comes to a complete halt and then enters into a major depression. Government spending is necessarily cut (since it can no longer borrow money without offering massive amounts of interest); any non-essential programs are completely wiped out, followed by partially essential, followed by military. With these programs cut, crime and social unrest increase, leading to an unruly public, and unfriendly foreign governments begin building up their military taking advantage of America's poor position. Another major war occurs, and China, having built up its manufacturing infrastructure over the course of the last decade, is able to fill the same function that America did during the second world war.

        Congratulations, you've toppled the US as the sole remaining world superpower and replaced it with China.
    • xxTazxx, on 01/13/2008, -4/+4Or, if you are a Family Guy fan, think back to the Stewie asking Brian for money episode. *****' classic!
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=812PwVxueSA
  • chrisinsocalif, on 01/13/2008, -2/+2I was wondering why chinese food has been so expensive lately, to pay back my 4k loan.
  • koopertrooper, on 01/13/2008, -3/+1Thats explains the people with baseball bats...
  • AROZ, on 01/13/2008, -1/+4Because this is a matter of trade, isn't the debt is repayable through exports?
  • KraigR, on 01/13/2008, -29/+3***** 'em
    They take our jobs, pollute our environment, and are ***** commies!
    They shouldn't get a cent.
    • C0MF0RTABLYnumb, on 01/13/2008, -4/+20Oh becuae America does not a major contributor to pollution? They aren't taking are jobs, they being given our jobs by companies here in America. I wonder if it is because of dumb ass people like you.
      • noahhoward, on 01/13/2008, -3/+5HA you think America is a bad polluter, China is just getting started.
      • tim04, on 01/13/2008, -1/+3yah, America is a horrible polluter. They're still #1 even though China has 4X the population and much less technology for reducing pollution.
    • an0nym0uz, on 01/13/2008, -7/+6your an idiot
    • mastaphoo, on 01/13/2008, -10/+2communism is the best idea for government in the world. it's assholes like you that get leadership positions and ***** everything up. see 1984 and animal farm for details.
      • noahhoward, on 01/13/2008, -2/+6Communism is not a government it is an economic philosophy. In order for it to work it requires a certain degree of Fascism
        • roodammy44, on 01/13/2008, -2/+2You have obviously never read the communist manifesto.
          There hasn't ever been a real communist government in the world.
          There was never supposed to be a central "dictator" like figure who controls everything.
          This is what communism is supposed to be:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_manifesto#1 ...
          • teethman, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1It assumes the state is of the people. When the state is not of the people, which it never is because of the power granted individuals. It cannot be real communism. This means that there has never been a real communist government, but thats because every model based on communism has failed. The power granted to a few individuals or even the majority is always going to disable the minority because you assume the collective whole is always right. There is no true free market capitalism, but governments based on freedom of the individual rather then the whole haven't failed.
    • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -5/+1Hey the US is a racist selfcentered militarist state, they can do the ***** what they want with the flimsiest of excuses as a crutch. If murrcans say "***** YOU and your claims" they have a lot of nukes to back it up. Chinese must be dumb ***** to have fallen for that.....

      BUT fortunately we don't live in the middle ages anymore, right?
      • mirunit, on 01/13/2008, -0/+3Racist? That is essentially what you get with a multinational nation. There is racism to a degree everywhere, personally I think the US handles it well in realizing how diverse ethnic backgrounds can be - look at africa for instance where they are all the same color and fight over tribal rights, there will always be such things - we should seek to minimize them but be realistic.
  • TheMachine1, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2Since the mid 90's (when the US greatly increased imports from China) we have likely spent several trillion more on oil imports. None of which came from China.
    • mirunit, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1This is how a consumer economy works, for some reason consumer economies usually have higher standards of living - really illogical at times.
  • jazzperson, on 01/13/2008, -14/+4People in Communist countries are slaves. They just executed a man in North Korea for violating telephone laws.
    • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -4/+8Some aspects of US society are a lot more communist lately than you'd dare acknowledge, loserboy.
      • Ebulating, on 01/13/2008, -1/+1yeah, America is such an oppressive hell hole, I don't know how you can stand it here.
    • roodammy44, on 01/13/2008, -1/+3The "communist" countries are as truly communist as the "Democratic republic of Congo" is truly Democratic.
    • uker, on 01/14/2008, -0/+2ignorant.
  • jeriqo, on 01/13/2008, -4/+2How much is it for each Chinese ?
    • whitehatlurker, on 01/13/2008, -1/+9Given a $1.4 trillion trade imbalance, the trade deficit per American is $4618 and the trade surplus per Chinese is $1053. (Population numbers from Wikipedia, so ...)
      • jeriqo, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1I guess $1000 in china is pretty huge. Much more than $4000 in USA.
      • uker, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1i dont study trade and finance. can i ask this trade imbalance has to be paid back to China?
  • krnldmp, on 01/13/2008, -3/+8Because most Americans don't know their senator's phone numbers.
    • Leomarth, on 01/13/2008, -1/+4congress.org

      I email them. Get with the times. And also, it won't do any good. It's the Congress that has been doing this.
      • sm4k, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1So, your suggestion that we go to 'congress.org' also won't do any good?

        Note: sarcasm, I know the Senate is part of Congress.
    • fatdog789, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1The Senate *is* part of Congress. You mean that the House of Representatives is responsible for this (because the House initiates spending bills and all other finance-related policy).
  • Joxe, on 01/13/2008, -3/+0that's a lot of money
  • banido, on 01/13/2008, -3/+20"You pay now ?"
    • Buddhist, on 01/13/2008, -2/+6What happened to you China? You used to be cool.
    • Campog, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2Family guy reference? Dugg.
  • an0nym0uz, on 01/13/2008, -8/+4buried because of anti-chinese propaganda trash content
  • swoopdog, on 01/13/2008, -16/+30i'll pay my 4K now if I can opt out of the income tax for the rest of my life, so they can stop subsidizing the multinationals that outsource our jobs to the same countries and later wonder why our economy is doing so badly.

    Ron Paul 2008!
    • jasmin888, on 01/13/2008, -1/+8Exactly. Let's get back to the 18th century.
    • jasmin888, on 01/13/2008, -3/+8You guys are so ***** unbelievable. You overspent on stupid wars. Many of you at one time supported the criminals in the White House. Inside you knew something was wrong but you supported them anyway. (OK I know most of you here didn't).
      Now you're whining that the lunch wasn't free after all. What the hell did you expect?
      The debt to China is not your only worry. Think what happens when the Euro becomes the reserve currency of the world. US will no longer be able to 'print' it self out of fiscal hot waters as it has done so many times before.
      Next thing that has me wondering is why you don't learn from the most advanced nations in the world. Ask your self which nations are consistenly the most competitive, are the wealthiest and have the most happy citizens. Look at what they did right and do the same.
      Look at Scandinavia!
      They probably have the highest taxation in the world but if it is well spent you get the best society in the world.
      So I'd say go for the 21st century with Scandinavia or go for the 18th century with Ron Paul.
      • Arahail, on 01/13/2008, -2/+3When was the last time Scandinavia innovated anything of importance? It is due to their high taxation as a reason for their lack of innovation or invention. Socialists are essentially anti-progress, whether they think they are or not, the policy supports it. A Ron Paul vision of this country would move the U.S. towards a laissez-faire style of government, and any government that is close to that is or was Hong Kong, which was able to modernize and built up its economy in an extraordinary short time. So yeah, I'll go for the future, not have future generations stay in 21st century.
        • jasmin888, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1Bang and Olufsen, Nokia, Sonyericsson, Lego, Vestas (world's largest wind mill producer) Maersk (world's largest container shipping company) Volvo, Ikea, H&M, Bluetooth and GSM was invented in Scandinavia just to name a few things.
          Oh I all but forgot Carlsberg beer
    • kruptd, on 01/13/2008, -1/+1You're actually not required by law to pay your income tax as it is. Personally I'd rather pay it to a crackhead than the government. At least they'd do their *job
    • tim04, on 01/13/2008, -1/+1I can't see how anyone thinks eliminating Income Tax is good. Where the fu*k is the money for police, firemen, etc. gonna come from? Jesus, you guys are so damn shortsighted.
      • psykiv, on 01/13/2008, -1/+2Police and Fire Departments are paid for with our PROPERTY TAXES.
      • kruptd, on 01/13/2008, -1/+0Your money isn't funding all the government's spending anyways. Why do you think the debt is so high?

        You might want to check out http://www.devvy.com/notax.html
        Best I could find, but I'm pretty sure it covers everything
    • brad3378, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
      Unfortunately we owe MUCH more than $4000 each towards our national debt.
      Make sure you're sitting before clicking on this link.
  • Insomnya3AM, on 01/13/2008, -3/+2Oh no.. Not more guilt..
    I'm not sure if I can take it. /sarcasm
  • bwpayne, on 01/13/2008, -1/+10Guys guys.. Its all just big and confusing numbers. Don't think about it.
    Here let me redirect your attention to free national healthcare, you would like that wouldn't you? Oh yea and lets start another war, better fight them over there than over here right? I mean its much cheaper to move warships, infantry and fly bombers than it is to secure the homeland. Plus all this liberating would look good on the list for St.Peter. /s
  • KanosWRX, on 01/13/2008, -5/+3I'll pay over the next 10 years at all the Chinese fast food places I go to. General Tso's is just so worth it :)
    • mirunit, on 01/13/2008, -0/+2Indeed, Chinese food is really great.
    • MrBleh, on 01/14/2008, -0/+1General Tso's is as good a Chinese food as Big Mac is a great American food.
  • compupawn, on 01/13/2008, -2/+0nor luap :)
  • hendrixlives64, on 01/13/2008, -8/+3YU PAI NAO!
  • sndream, on 01/13/2008, -6/+4I think that's the problem with America. So many American actually think saving equal to a lower standard of living which make you unhappy.

    Believe it on not, China nowadays is only Communism by name. It is now transiting to a Free Market Society. It's economy beliefs is basically a localized version of fiscal conservative.
  • DangerCollie, on 01/13/2008, -3/+3Pretty soon we'll be the ones saying:
    Pants ready on Thursday.
  • Leomarth, on 01/13/2008, -3/+4Yup. If the Chinese ever decide to stop funding America, America collapses pretty much. But the Chinese have their own issues too with their inflated stock market. If they ever let Chinese citizens invest in companies outside of their own market, their stock market, and possibly their economy, may collapse.
    • duckyinc, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1That's why china isn't using democracy, glad US didn't export democracy everywhere now?
  • TWGMichael, on 01/13/2008, -8/+65RON PAUL: "Let me see if I get this right. We need to borrow $10 billion from China, and then we give it to Musharraf, who is a military dictator, who overthrew an elected government. And then we go to war, we lose all these lives promoting democracy in Iraq. I mean, what's going on here?" http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-debatet ...
  • KnightMareInc, on 01/13/2008, -5/+8come and get it
  • ravage86, on 01/13/2008, -14/+10I work for my American employer. I spend the money I earn on American products. On the rare occasion I get something from China, I pay for it. I don't owe anybody anything.

    Now, my government may owe them. And that probably needs to be stopped. You shouldn't print money that you can't back up with gold, that's just irresponsible. But don't try to make this my fault. I'm just living my life.
    • thecoolestguy, on 01/13/2008, -4/+8It's not your fault, it wasn't you who instated all these big government socialist programs and expensive foreign military interventions, but the government is certainly going to take the money from you eventually via taxation.
    • mirunit, on 01/13/2008, -2/+4"You shouldn't print money that you can't back up with gold, that's just irresponsible."

      Look back to the standard of living with the gold standard, I have nothing more to say on that issue.

      "big government socialist programs and expensive foreign military interventions"

      I assume that some of you are digging him down for mentioning socalist programs, but that is often just as big a part of spending as the military. One question to ask is whether or not the military has separate taxes taken monthly such as medicare/medicade/social security - those alone almost equal federal income tax.
      • thecoolestguy, on 01/13/2008, -1/+3---Look back to the standard of living with the gold standard, I have nothing more to say on that issue.---

        You mean before we harnessed electricity and developed the internal combustion engine? Of course the standard of living was lower at that time, but it has nothing to do with the gold standard. That's extremely weak reasoning you got going on there.

        Life expectancy increased by 20.9 years from 1900 to 1950. It increased by only 8 years from 1950 to 2000, which was the era that the US went totally off the gold standard.

        The gold standard saw the US economy and standard of living increase at a faster rate.
        • darienphoenix, on 01/14/2008, -1/+1Why do you Paul supporters say that paper money is inherently worthless, conveniently forgetting that Gold is only worth anything because we make it so?

          I can only assume you all failed economics, or never took it in the first place. A return to the 18th centuary is NOT the answer.
        • thecoolestguy, on 01/26/2008, -0/+1paper only has worth because of government dictum: the government only accepts paper for tax payments.

          Gold has value because of the market, i.e. it will have value regardless of what the government dictates.

          Gold decentralizes power, whereas paper gives all the power to the central government/central bank. Decentralizing power is always good, because it increases competition and market fluidity, and therefore progress.

          --I can only assume you all failed economics, or never took it in the first place. A return to the 18th centuary is NOT the answer.---

          You failed economics. You showed no reasoning whatsoever in your response.
    • willajabir, on 01/13/2008, -1/+1thecoolestguy is right, but have you looked at the labels in the stores where you buy your goods. The estimated non perishable goods consumed in the country is estimated at 80% from China. My son points out that the government stats have a much lower number. This is true, BUT for example most products from Japan are produced in China according to the labels. So, even tho we import from other countries, we are still getting them indirectly from.....you guessed it....China. The free market enterprise is thriving in China...just don't make the government look bad or talk about religion. Everything else is far game.
  • neptuniac, on 01/13/2008, -2/+1So basically, we got some ipods and clothes and promised to pay the Chinese, but we haven't done it yet. Fine with me. China must loan us money, so we can buy their stuff. And they will continue to do so, as long as they want us to buy all this crap.
  • Khannea, on 01/13/2008, -3/+3The ONLY way most americans AVOID up paying for that debt, with abundant interest (except rich americans who have been paying nothing for a long while) is to leave the US, emigrate and renounce citizenship.
  • PHiZ187, on 01/13/2008, -0/+3The numbers here are intentionally misleading. The only way you can support the conclusion in the excerpted blurb is if you say that the treasury notes the Chinese have bought are worthless. They're not. They are equity. More frighteningly, they are leverage that he Chinese government has over the United States.
    • rhaelig, on 01/13/2008, -3/+1...which is why I appreciate the fact that we are well-armed.
      • PHiZ187, on 01/13/2008, -1/+6The Chinese are not to be underestimated, for several reasons. Culturally they are very different from us. Different enough that we can't easily comprehend how they think. One example is the Great Wall of China. The wall was created over a period of 1000 years. Yes, the Chinese had a 1000 year plan. Americans don't think anywhere near that scale. Our nation is still a baby at a little over 200 years old. Also, they are much more collectively aligned than we in the US are. In the US we are individualists and cowboys, in China "the people's interest" trumps personal interests. This allows China to get away with trampling their citizens in ways that wouldn't fly in the US. Lastly, the Chinese think asymmetrically, ala Sun Tzu. China is already looking to space warfare. In one publicized American war game, the chinese team won by using dollars to buy satellites, thus knocking out the US command and control infrastructure. China is a threat, primarily economically, but in other ways too. It is a future threat that I do not think that any of our politicians realize or are capable of addressing, unfortunately.
      • davidave, on 01/13/2008, -0/+1cool and come invasion time i'm sure you'll be right up there in the front lines or are you just an armchair tough guy?
  • TheHapacalypse, on 01/13/2008, -3/+6This is the best news on Digg ever! I'll take checks, money orders, paypal. I'll even give some you economically-challenged Americans special installment plans for payment.
    • 11b1p, on 01/13/2008, -0/+2Good luck trying to claim your 40 Acres and a Mule sir
    • dogstar0125, on 01/15/2008, -0/+1Actually, Americans are waiting until our currency is worthless. Then we'll pay you back.
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