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145 Comments
- getindiggywitit, on 10/12/2007, -7/+32Since when does Hell mean living without air conditioning, lights, refrigeration, and internet connections? Some people never have any of these things...
- Goplat, on 10/12/2007, -16/+41California had a regulated electrical system that worked well for 40 years. In 1996 they listened to the free-market propaganda and deregulated it, and a few years later they were rewarded by blackouts and prices around $200/MWh, thanks to Enron shutting down working power plants.
- iggee85, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Err, can you explain that to me...how does having more than one power company guarantee that you will never be without power? They operate over the same power lines and power outages are usually caused by a problem in those power lines.
Just look at your phone service, there are many companies that provide phone service but if your line goes down you're SOL. - skyorbit, on 10/12/2007, -9/+26So True.
Central planning is what causes these sorts of crises -- even when done at the local city level. If there was competition in the production of electricity. you could just go to another provider when one company can't deliver.
At least they're not getting price gouged ::)
Tracy - orangeRam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15I'm an electrical engineer on Long Island and studied the NYC power grid while an undergrad and can tell you the problem with the blackouts, especially in Astoria is that the network of feeder cables that were overloaded are nearly 60 years old. They were never meant to carry such large loads of electricity, upwards of 10 Gw per day. The system was designed when the population of NYC was around 2 million, in all five boroughs. Now there's more than that in Queens alone. Con Ed was under no pressure to upgrade the system because the huge cost would have to be subsidized by the city which would mean an increase in spending and taxes. People would have inevitably complained that "The electricity works fine, why the hell are my taxes going up to upgrade the system?" It takes an event like this for the citizens to get on board, and now everyone complains that "They've done nothing to prepare for this, they should have seen it coming and upgraded a long time ago."
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -7/+21@kazem:
The CA experiment in deregulation was flawed in many ways:
a) The govt. still regulated the price that the consumer paid.
b) Expecting a free market response in the span of a couple of months and then declaring the whole thing a failure isn't a very good experiment.
Free market will beat central planning if a) is fixed by letting free market decide the price of power and b) is fixed by allowing the time for competition to grow to offset the initial sharp increase in price caused by derugation and "gouging" by the current supplier (which is the incentive for competiton) - kazem, on 10/12/2007, -17/+31No, competition with basic utilities is a horrible idea. I was in CA when it was deregulated. It was miserable. Rolling blackouts during the summer time. I worked at a particle accelerator there and we had to shut down most of the systems b/c of the severe power shortages which were all faked by the power companies in an effort to artificially decrease supply, raising the cost of power.
Capitalistic competition works for goods, not services such as water, power, and I'd argue even internet. It's a bad idea and does not work. The moment things are privatized, the company is REQUIRED by law to turn a profit. I don't see how that helps the consumer. Meanwhile, state run services can run at a loss, and this has been shown to help a struggling economy during hard times. - umdigger, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18Life without power is not hell, most people just cant cope with things they aren't used to.
Personally I looked forward to winter storms that knocked out our power for days. It was exciting and adventurous. And when the east/part of Michigan had their power out for days a few years back it was great. Everyone became more social...not to mention the stores had huge sales on beer and kegs.
Granted I do agree that the bill aspect of having unreliable service needs work. But my comcast doesn't get the speeds it says and is down way more often than my power. - AtomicRequiem, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18While it's true competition would help consumers, the reason central planning for these things exists is because there are significant barriers to getting into producing electricity. It's not like opening a corner store, after all. So saying that competition would solve the problem is a little naive...
- eth3l, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Is it ConEd's position that fat people caused the NY blackout?
- tao52nyc, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12This is not technically true - CA could never get totally clear of it's desire to control. Yes, there was a deregulated market in energy RETAIL services, thus ending monopoly players, but then CA turned right around and made it impossible for those "baby-bell" companies to obtain power via long-term low-cost contracts from core suppliers to the grid - they were all forced to buy short-term on the spot market, which naturally ratcheted that up sky-high for a period.
The state also continued to regulate retail rates to customers. This state-caused distortion in power purchasing, where retail suppliers were sometimes forced to pay 12 cents/kw for power but could only resell it again for 8 cents, created a disaster. Don't blame capitalism, it always comes through - but only when governments can put aside their control-freak impulses for a few minutes and allow it to. - mousky, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14De-regulation does not equal free-market. The so-called deregulation in California was anything but an example of deregulation. Rates were capped. Stranded costs were transferred to consumers, and so on.
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10There was never any real deregulation in CA. Prices to consumers were still regulated by CA govt.
- xavihax0r, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10yeah, your right. When everyone wants something and there isn't enough of it to go around, the market system uses prices to allocate resources to those who have the highest demand for it, while those who demand it less seek alternatives. This is called efficient allocation of resources.
On the other hand, having government regulation means you either wait in line for days (think soviet union) or you just can't get any at all no matter how the much you are willing to pay.
It is very poor of people to equate causation just because one event follows another. Yes gas prices are set by market prices, but no one ever claimed this would lead to lower prices. It is private companies that are driven by profits which seeks the most efficient way to produce and market gasoline. If you wish to go back to price controls, think of long long lines that you will be witting in for hours, just like in the 70s when we had price controls on domestic production of oil. Your price would not do anything to increase supply
higher prices right now are resulting from higher world demand. The best that we can hope for is that the oil companies make a lot of money. This will signal to other people to invest in energy production and will help increase supply to match our growing demand. Just look at all the alt. fuel companies right now that are popping up because they see profit potential.
Forgive me for ranting - BrokenImage, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7How come in the end it always ends up being the fat people or the illegals fault?
- DBrez8, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9I dont trust any company with an AOL email laddress:
E-Mail: pyroninc@aol.com - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I'm a big fan of local electrical co-ops. My family was a member of one the whole time I was growing up in rural south Texas. The only time we ever had a power outage is when a hurricaine came through and knocked down some power lines. Power was back up in less than a day. On top of that, we still paid less for electricity than our neighbors that were on with the regular electricity company.
- bradk50, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7 The issues were caused by the lines/distibution system itself and not the power generation. Even if there was another power company to choose it would still come in on the same wires, it would be too expensive and too wasteful to run duplicate power lines everywhere. Just like your pots(plain old telephone service, which if i didn't spell out someone would make a stupid comment without knowing what it is) whoever you use the last mile is the same.
- eth3l, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9"Look, at some point someone will find a way to transport electricity around the globe on wires and have near zero loss (superconducting materials might have some interesting applications, I don't know). Then the nation that can produce energy the cheapest and cleanest will make tons of money. Imagine a set of nuclear reactors in the wilderness thousands of miles from anywhere, sitting on top of a disposal site, exporting energy around the world. That would be an interesting solution to our power needs."
I did that in SimCity 4 and it rocks - InsaneShow, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Another big problem in the Power Industry is the NIMBY (Not in My Backyard) people. New York and California could fix most of their power problems if the politicians allowed the construction of my power plants and high voltage lines. However, places like NY and CA choose to purchase their power when they can, which when the demand level gets high, you are no longer relying on your own equipment, but instead your providers equipment.
- funksta, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Hmm, I'm pretty sure that there are millions of people in third world nations that have life a lot worse than this EVERY DAY.
We are so friggin spoiled and selfish here in North America. - Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7The US infrastructure is crumbling in all areas...just look at the roads in many places. The government spends a bare minimum on infrastructure, and usually only because they can get fat kickbacks or do it "privately" (poll roads, for instance) for free (to them). Progress is dead in the US, and if you aren't progressing, you're regressing.
- rotten777, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@getindiggywitit
If you lived somewhere that heat strokes were common, then you would know what they meant by hell. - naughtymonkey69, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I intern at Con Ed in NY and the problem was overloaded feeders that caused the blackout. Extremely hot outside + lots of fat people wanting air conditioning = too much energy demand for the system. Con Ed wanted to upgrade their network because it was outdated but they had to deal with so much BS in courts ( being a regulated company) that they were prevented from doing so. That and it's digg's fault...if Digg wasn't so damn interesting I might actually do a little work around here. =)
- skoles, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Parts of St. Louis have been w/out power longer and have affected more people than the NY outage.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Like I always say - if you want it done right, do it yourself!
Make your own damn power! - Smoove, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9"While it's true competition would help consumers, the reason central planning for these things exists is because there are significant barriers to getting into producing electricity."
History proves that wrong. Regulation was introduced in the first place at the request of electricity providers in Baltimore that complained they weren't making money because there was TOO MUCH competition. In other words, inefficient providers were upset that more efficient providers were cleaning their clocks--which is just why competition is a good thing.
Reading documents of the time, you'll find that the key phrase was "ruinous competition." - craiger316, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7You should try it sometime, just flick all the breakers off for 10 days in your house/appartment and see if it is hell or not.
- pevensen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7In St. Louis, for example, having multiple companies would not have helped unless each company has it's own grid. The problem here was with the storm knocking down trees and interrupting the grid.
I think the local power company has done a good job of pulling in crews from other states to help repair the grid. - geekee, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9"So how does a privatized power system address last mile upgrades? What would motivate a company to upgrade the last mile cables and thereby raise their prices when there has been no outages up to that point -- the answer is, they wouldn't."
Are you out of your mind? If you see future demand for more power, you see more money to be made, so you make investments in your infrastructure to accomodate forcasted demand. Otherwise your competition will, and take the market from you. Your analysis is sadly naive. - ahhell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I feel sorry for people that live the the big cities/the States.
Here in Manitoba, we never have power failures, brown outs, etc. here (unless some dumbass drives into a hydro pole and blows out some transformers).
The US seriously needs to revamp their power infrastructure. - eth3l, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Although 500k people here were out of power, and about 30k still are, the power companies ahve been doing a good job of getting power restored. the storm here was crazy - I have never seen anything like that.
Why dont we go to underground power lines? - harley999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Where is the murder investigation for the elderly people who died in California, and who is going to pay for my spoiled groceries?
- NJank, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5two things:
1) Solar is expensive, and has a long payback period. Even if you're reselling excess, unless you live in an Arizona desert and don't use your own AC, the payback period is still 5-10 years with rebates (YMMV)..
check out http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/PVT/
that site has A LOT of good info (hosted by Univ. of Central Florida) about solar cells, costs, rebates, etc.
2) That site also describes SOLAR THERMAL, an often overlooked, and much more economical solar energy option for the home. Solar water heating systems can have paybacks of 3 years or less. If you have an electric water heater, it can really save you some cash in the long run. Even if you have gas heat/hot water, it can make a big difference in you energy bill. - IKilled007, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Sit around in their house with the AC turned off? You mean like they do now? Government is your friend. Everything it touches turns to gold.
You know, it's my belief that the best punishment we can mete out for socialists is to enable them to live under the policies they promote. Give them public education and nationalized healthcare. They'll live the short, unhealthy, and ignorant lives they deserve. - andrew1193, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7No, the market system he advocates was not tried. Grid transmission was still regulated, retail prices were still capped by the government, long-term contracts were prohibited, etc.
- weirdone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5this is what they're talking about. They can't operate in NY because ConEd has a monopoly provided by the gov't and if anyone tries to compete, they are shut down. I'm pretty sure it is even illegal to compete on a small scale and provide power for say an apartment building through wind/solar.
- SWCarson, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9How about something substantive? Like "The Mises Institute comes from a libertarian and free market point of view and I don't think this point of view deserves to be heard." Or "The Mises Institute is factually incorrect, and here are examples". Or "Economic theory does not help us understand the economy and here is why."
I think the Mises articles have been insightful and, certainly with this one!, very relevant. What exactly is your objection to these articles?
Would it make a difference if the same articles were published by the NYTimes? Would you say "I'm getting sick of seeing nytimes.com under seemingly every headline too. I've started burying them as spam." in that case? - MobbyG, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm fat and use National Grid and live upstate, but I'm sure it's my fault somehow.
DAMN McDonald's for selling me that Big Mac Extra Value meal! - Smoove, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"I'm getting sick of seeing mises.org under seemingly every headline too. I've started burying them as spam."
You must have lots of time on your hands. Why not spend it, oh, I don't know, looking for a job or something? - DBrez8, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8I thought Canada got their power from lumberjacks running on floating logs...
You learn something new every day. - p1mpjuice, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Has there ever been a time where we could trust big business and the government?
....Unless Google starts providing some power...... - tao52nyc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I agree with Judgement...a power outage isn't "adventurous" if you just got out of cardiac surgery and are on a ventilator - intensive health care can be a nightmare if the power stays off for too long. Fortunately, not all the 5 boroughs were blacked out, so patients could be transferred to hospitals with more reliable power, if needed.
- kodak543, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4For colorado , I see a lot of people using wind turbines, and not so much with solar panels. Especially since colorado weather is pretty brutal, and can wear those down quite fast. Wind turbines are popular especially since colorado has the highest sustained windspeeds any where in the nation. btw, xcel energy is pretty bad, infact, rated the worst energy company in the nation. Lucky i dont live in there coverage area :)
- NJank, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5you want it run by the govt... and you think the employees will be better paid? better trained, maybe (I doubt it), but in general the govt pays professionals a good deal less than what we'd make in the private sector.
- Nyghtewynd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4No, more east-coast media people care about NYC than St. Louis. We're into our eighth day of widespread power outages while the relatively tiny outage in the Big Apple gets all of the press.
- evilTak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Yeah, I thought this was going to be some kind of DOOM article.
- whiskeymb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I read an article a while back about people putting more efficent solar panels on their roofs. not only could they power their own house but they were SELLING back some of that power to the power companies. On dark days or low solar days they'd just start using normal power-company provided power again or use battery backups.
so, my question for all you snappy diggers, does anybody know of a company that is offering efficent solar panels and has information on this sort of thing? I'm looking into buying a house (my first!!) sometime next year and would LOVE, LOVE!!!! to get away from crappy xCel energy here in CO!
thanks! - xavihax0r, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Really, would you like to cite when and where their theories have been tested. The so-called de-regulation in California was a joke, it was merely swapping one form of regulation for another, which is usually what happens when politicians and businesses get together and legislate 'change'. Even in the few instances where states have lightened up greatly, EPA regulations put a huge financial burden on companies, making entrance even harder. I'm not saying we should let these people pollute, but the process they have to go through to prove that they aren't polluting is lengthy and expensive, which is what you would expect when working with government.
- borchard76, on 10/12/2007, -9/+13It is very difficult to know where CA would be if Enron had either: not existed or been run by ethical employees.
As it, I think Electricity is actually an area that is best done by the government as a service (all revenue over actual cost going to research), or as a cooperative among local folks. The reason I think this is because it is a commodity that requires the users plug into a single line. These lines are common to all houses, much like roadways. Currently I buy electricity from Duke Energy, and it comes from the Nuclear Plant just down the road. It is very expensive, and I hate it. We need six more plants in the area to really be able to export energy and drive the cost down.
Look, at some point someone will find a way to transport electricity around the globe on wires and have near zero loss (superconducting materials might have some interesting applications, I don't know). Then the nation that can produce energy the cheapest and cleanest will make tons of money. Imagine a set of nuclear reactors in the wilderness thousands of miles from anywhere, sitting on top of a disposal site, exporting energy around the world. That would be an interesting solution to our power needs.
Frankly, I blame the environutalists. There have been some people that fight the mere idea of nuclear just because we can also make bombs with it. Newer reactor designs produce much less waste, and truly, waste disposal solutions that make sense environmentally have been developed, but they all require that someone be willing to take the waste into their area (IIRC, certain Native American tribes have volunteered, knowing the cash they would get in return), which is a political nightmare for anyone.
I hate monopolies because they end up costing more money for me. I would love to be able to choose my electric provider, with the actual lines being common carrier status. That way Duke and $othercompany could compete for my business.
For Duke I pay about $0.07 per kwh, which isn't terrible, but it shoud be cheaper. I like the rolling blackouts and brownouts, since they are attracting attention to the needs we as a world have related to energy. -
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