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150 Comments
- sashley, on 10/11/2007, -25/+69It only makes sense, if H1B is really to augment the ability of companies to get technical workers, that they first look to train and employ their current workers. Finally some congress critters that are working for the American worker.
- rosefu, on 10/11/2007, -7/+38I'm a legal immigrant working in a tech position. I know a ton of people that are looking for a tech job and can't find one, or are getting paid crap despite the value of their work. Tech workers should be valued more than they are, and that's the opposite of what's going to happen if the floodgates are open.
To put it to an ICHC caption: "im in ur contry, stealin ur jobz." - timothybryce, on 10/11/2007, -12/+42There's no need for an immigration bill - we simply need to enforce the laws that are currently on the books.
- Asten77, on 10/11/2007, -15/+44I'm all for this. In keeping with the rationale behind H1Bs in the first place, foreign workers on H1Bs logically should be the first workers laid off when layoffs come around. Other countries aggressively protect their workers from foreign labor. The US should too.
- timothybryce, on 10/11/2007, -16/+45"foreign workers on H1Bs logically should be the first workers laid off when layoffs come around."
How about...bad workers logically should be the first workers laid off when layoffs come around...
I'm always amazed at how "libertarian" Diggers turn into socialist control freaks when the subject is business or labor law. - nonymous666, on 10/11/2007, -11/+33"at the rate the US is losing its advantage educationally, importing all the highly skilled workers it can is not a bad thing. "
Right now, there's no incentive for the U.S. to get educated. A U.S. person has no incentive to get, say, and engineering degree, when they know that employers would rather higher foreign workers. Even if they get a job, the know they'll just eventually get laid off later in their career (probably more than once) when the employer decides to outsource or replace them with a visa worker.
Allowing too much outsourcing and visas is just leading U.S. students to a mentality of "Might as well just go work at Target." - timothybryce, on 10/11/2007, -4/+26"hopefully ideas like this will keep the immigration reform bill open, and keep talks going."
Hopefully that monstrosity of an immigration bill is dead and in the ground. - Error601, on 10/11/2007, -5/+26Anytime a politicians claims to be "helping the workers" watch out because here comes big government regulations.
- designflaw, on 10/11/2007, -4/+21The fact that H1b quota reached its capacity in less then 2 days this years, speaks volumes of the fact that companies are trying to find cheap labor.
- member57, on 10/11/2007, -5/+22@squirrelonfire
How about protecting our own? Nearly every developed nation protects it's own workers before allowing foreign talent in to steal jobs. The H1-B visas are a sham for tech companies to get cheap labor and displace American workers.
BTW, we are not a "Free Market" economy, no country has a "Free Market" economy, the workers get screwed even worse than we are being screwed now. - zombiedictator, on 10/11/2007, -8/+22The problem is that people are ignoring the Enrons and Worldcoms of the late 90s/early 00s. These companies pushed for massive de-regulation and they got it. And what did we get? Artificial electricity shortages to help in obfuscating the largest accounting fraud case in history.
A free market is great, but the fact of the matter is companies need a loose leash around their necks, otherwise they'll run up and bite. China has a problem with massive environmental damage because they had zero environmental regulation. So if a company can produce a good cheap and dirty compared to expensive and clean, which would he chose if the government lets him make the decision? He gains nothing other than a feel-good for tomorrow if he cleans up his act compared to hard cash today if he does it as "economically" as possible. - donte, on 10/11/2007, -9/+22Thank god. The government has been so good at managing itself that it's a damn good thing they are going to tell large companies how to run themselves and make a better economic impact. You know... sometimes government regulation isn't always the answer to everything.
- ybfree, on 10/11/2007, -14/+27I agree, those on H1Bs should go first. I am writing those two Senators right away to thank them for introducing this into the immigration legislation.
- SkallyMM, on 10/11/2007, -15/+26South Park comes to mind: "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!... RABEL RABEL RABEL!"
- xtmno3, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11@Error601 (#7083639) said: "Finding a decent programmer these days is close to impossible."
It doesn't help your situation with the fact that most US colleges teach students the concepts behind programming and language theory etc, but give minimal (IMHO) instruction on good coding. Colleges seem to think that everyone who graduates with a CS degree is going to immediately start a career as an architect, or just do research. I know I personally felt under-qualified and under-experienced when I came to the job market last year. - trulymadly, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11I'm sick and tired of paying elevated pay to people in protected classes (doctors, union joes, policeman, families of 9-11 victims, congresspeople, military contractors, etc), while the government bends over backwards to lower my wages. My salary is probably half what it would be without all the government effort to bring in people to do what I do, who then return overseas to train OTHER people to do what i do. sheesh. I probably could have retired by now if it weren't for H1-Bs and L1s (I've worked 10 years). Yes, booo-hooo, some company would have had to pay me more (something like the salary of a policeman) and booo-hooo there would be fewer high-tech jobs....but they would have paid more and I would have had one of them
Read between the lines:
* The amendment currently defines "mass layoffs" as a company with more than 100 employees letting go of 50 or more workers --> if your company classifies everyone in the building as "contractors" hired through middlemen, this doesn't apply
* it offers an exemption for companies that provide written certification that the company's total number of employees in the US won't be reduced as a result of the layoff. --> H1B workers are also "in the US"
* The company can't hire any new H1Bs after a "mass layoff". But they can outsource, offshore, and hire contractors through middlemen. Incidentally, this is *exactly* what happens. I saw the meltdown of AT&T wireless, Americans of all ethnicities laid off and replaced with Indian contractors sitting in the same cubicles. AT&T could say it wasn't replacing anyone with H1Bs, it was simply outsourcing. The contractors weren't any better at work and actually had higher hourly wages (though lower benefits) - tizz66, on 10/11/2007, -3/+132 days? I think it was reached in less than 2 hours actually. Luckily I got through both the application and the lottery - see you in October!
- thorimm, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11I just love the direction the US is going.
EXPORT entry-level tech jobs, middle-class manufacturing jobs, and customer service (i.e. telephone support) jobs to contries with lower labor costs.
IMPORT workers for the low-wage service industry, and technology and pay them less.
Stock in these companies soars.
What's left? Oh, right....McDonalds, Starbucks, Burger King.... - mlavergn, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9@SquirrelOnFire
You'd be right if H1Bs represented the free labor market. That's where the problem lies, H1Bs visa do not let foreign employees switch employers. The visas are held by the company, not the employee. I'm all for legal immigration, but H1Bs are just about as close to indentured servitude as exists. If labor is not mobile, then there's every incentive for companies to underpay and keep the position below the market rate. If H1Bs were held by the employee rather than the company, as in the employee can take that visa and work were they choose for 3 years (or however long the visas last), H1Bs would be far less attractive to employers. A lot of words to say, if we're going to use the excuse that companies need to be allowed to compete in the free market unhindered, then we must also allow labor to compete in the free market unhindered and the current H1B rules are most certainly a hinderence. My personal take on it is that the H1B system in this country is backwards, foreign workers should apply directly to the INS for H1Bs, then seek employment. As it stands, companies apply to the INS for H1Bs, then seek workers, something is certainly not right with that setup. - wdunay3, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10I can't hold this back anymore;
1. There is plenty of new talent in the work force that can't get jobs because there is NO ONE that wants to mentor the new talent. There is practically no real leadership in the American work force any more. Everyone wants to me a manager but no one REALLY wants to lead. They just want the big forkin' paycheck. Too many managers, not enough workers!
Anyone interested in some in-site into what I'm talking about, read "Clouds to Code" by Jessie Liberty. It explains why 98% of the work force in America needs a wake up call.
2. Because of 1, companies want to hire cheep labor over seas. In some cases I agree that overseas talent is good. But in my experience in the six years since the dot-com bust most companies do not know how to communicate with those over seas workers. This poor communication between company and outsourced resources leads to a lot of software that could have WAY better then it currently is. Save a buck but produce inferior products. *sarcasm*WAY TO GO! Nice way to serve your customers.*end sarcasm*.
I think bringing the jobs back to America is A. good for America in general and the American economy and B. necessary because if we can't learn to communicate with our own workers ho the hell are we going to communicate with workers from other countries! - trer, on 10/11/2007, -3/+12We tried a non-regulated free market once. Corruption was rampant, child labor existed, long work hours were implemented, pollution was out of control, strikes were violently quashed, oligopolies and monoplies stifled competition.
You can't put all of your chips in one basket. Market competition is not the end all be all bible of everything. You must have balance. - orlyfactor, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10Good. How about we don't hire any more Indian programmers so I can go to the bathroom without watching them scoop up water into their mouths from the sink and ***** all over the seats (yes, this really does happen, and yes, I work for a Fortune 100 company). It's just NASTY, get some of these bitches cultural training before they turn our rest rooms into festering stinkholes.
- kristov, on 10/11/2007, -3/+112 senators want to do right by America - 98 want to accept bribes.... hmm.... wonder how this will play out...
- Jerim, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Companies claim that they need foreign workers because they are more skilled. I say, that we level the playing the field. They can hire as many foreign workers as they want, but they must pay them the average salary of a US worker doing the same task. Or at least we tax the company the the difference and take that money to use toward more education. That way, everyone is competing based purely on skill since it will cost the company the same either way.
Let's take the cost savings out of this, because as we all know, the only reason they want foreign workers so bad is to save money, pure and simple. I don't buy for one minute that foreign workers are that much smarter or harder working than American workers. But as long as they save the company 40% in salaries every year, the CEO's aren't going to care. - trulymadly, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7
you don't know what you are talking about. the are paid a comparable wage (often higher on an hourly basis). the company saves money on benefits, and on NOT increasing wages. so if a free market would support $150,000 per year without immigration, corporations get to cheat by importing people and keeping pay at $80,000 per year.
you might think $80,000 is a huge amount of money, but engineers are highly trained professionals, with at least as much training as a lawyer and almost as much as a physician. in comparison, SF just passed a pay increase for PATROLMEN (low-level police officers), raising their salaries to $110,000...before overtime....and they get full retirement after 30 years. engineers usually have to save up and hope that the stock market holds up when they grow gray. - DogHumpsMonkey, on 10/11/2007, -5/+11"Do you even live in America? There are plenty of incentives for Americans to get a degree or an education. How many companies are outsourcing (with foreign workers) their car repair (technical school)? How man companies do you see outsourcing their management?"
Wow. So I shouldn't bother with getting a university degree in engineering because I can go to vocational/tech school and learn to repair the cars of the people who are getting the job that I had aspired to? You should be a high school guidance counselor. Great ***** plan. - VitriolAndAngst, on 10/11/2007, -6/+12""Right now, there's no incentive for the U.S. to get educated. A U.S. person has no incentive to get, say, and engineering degree, when they know that employers would rather higher foreign workers. Even if they get a job, the know they'll just eventually get laid off later in their career (probably more than once) when the employer decides to outsource or replace them with a visa worker."
Do you even live in America? There are plenty of incentives for Americans to get a degree or an education. How many companies are outsourcing (with foreign workers) their car repair (technical school)? How man companies do you see outsourcing their management?
I worked for one of the biggest retailers in the US for a while, and we had over 10 IT staff (at the main office headquarters) and only 1 foreign "visa worker".
Yeah....outsourcing is a "real" threat.
"
>> I don't know if you are intentionally trying to be funny, or you are just misguided;
"They can't outsource car repair."
-- Wow, I'd like to be able to live on that pay check and have a family. Wonder who can do it.
"I worked for one of the biggest retailers in the US for a while..."
-- that just sent me over the edge. Do we make any clothes anymore? Mostly, no. So you WERE in a business that sold good made overseas. Wow -- 10 IT workers! Were they employed all at once? You can hardly outsource a tech job like that -- it's mostly business related. When you have 100 programmers, and sell it as a product, THEN you have something you can save money on by outsourcing.
A lot of the H1B visas are to bring in a cheaper employees -- we have plenty of unemployed or underemployed engineers and programmers. While they might bring in a "better" programmer -- isn't that an argument for why we need MORE money going into education? It sounds like a downwards spiral to me: Companies want to pay less taxes, because otherwise they will move offshore (because they got rid of tariffs to be globally competitive, right?), so they subsidize less education. Then they want to import a worker because a citizen won't do - otherwise they outsource and sell us the product. Wait, why is this company even IN the US? Because they want access to our consumers, and they want to use the skills of our workers.
So, if we don't make it MORE expensive to import, and we don't spend MORE to educate our citizens -- why exactly would anyone be in the US, other than to set up a Retail outlet? This is totally unsustainable.
>> I'm really happy for this sane policy. You can't downsize and then outsource without a penalty. Boo-hoo, it's "unfair" to business. Then why were you here in America in the first place? Scenery? - qwertydvorak, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6no, the mexicans are working the mcdonalds and burger king. starbucks usually is staffed by someone with jewelry in their face and lots of tatoos.
- Eilarais, on 10/11/2007, -5/+11@jmpeagle
Why do we have to start a race to the bottom in order to preserve companies that do not effectively meet our needs? Wouldn't it be more ideal to let them leave and then change the underlying economic structure to turn them into liabilities? This would let the market fill up again with businesses that actually serve customers.
It's like complaining about the volume on your stereo and then complaining about the cost of the batteries it runs through. - DrDragun, on 10/11/2007, -8/+13hopefully ideas like this will keep the immigration reform bill open, and keep talks going. As McCain said, doing nothing is "silent amnesty" and if you can't reach a compromise then that's doing nothing.
The idea itself sounds great to me. - niradg, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6Not everyone who gets an H1B is cheap labor. My cousin who went to IIT in India is going to work for Google at a very high salary. And let's not forget that many of America's largest tech companies were founded by immigrants.
Having said that, I do agree that companies shouldn't be able to easily replace US citizens with foreign programmers who do the same job for less money. However, I imagine that if they can't bring the workers here, companies will simply outsource the jobs instead. - member57, on 10/11/2007, -5/+10@timothybryce
The Constitution does not guarantee a free and open market economy, but it does provide for the "common good" of it's people. Protecting the people from being exploited by large corporations is a good thing. Every other country protects it's workers, why not the US? We are the only nation that religiously fights to import labor to fill "gaps" that companies are unwilling, not unable, to fill with Americans. Why do these companies not want to invest in it's own people? I wish I knew the answer.People are trainable, you will have to train that foreign worker, why not an American? We already know the language and culture. - Godlike, on 10/11/2007, -0/+41) People with companies want lots of money. Everyone does. This is the inherant flaw of capitalism, they tell you about the american dream which no longer exists.
2) Companies do not want to share their money with their workers, they would rather pay their shareholders so that they will give them more of that money back and then get to keep even more.
3) Companies fire higher paid american workers (laying someone off is firing them, I don't care what the labor office or HR says) and hire foreign ones for less money.
4) Rich people get richer. The middle class vanishes.
Welcome to modern America, the beaten gimp of NAFTA. - Godlike, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4I know your pain, brother.
- TubaTechno, on 10/11/2007, -3/+7"The problem is that people are ignoring the Enrons and Worldcoms of the late 90s/early 00s."
People are not ignoring the "Enrons" of the world. Look into Sarbanes-Oxley, and then you'll know.... - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6Well, you never let go of your really good people, so one has to evaluate the old and the new employees. Large corporations only let the sucky people go when they layoff folks. Not saying that's what occurred here, but that is my experience.
If you were any good they would have called you back. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -4/+8As someone who recruits engineers for a living, there are simply not enough skilled Americans with advanced degrees. Say whatever you want, but that is the reality.
Restrict our flow of bright highly skilled individuals and you might as well pack it all in..
Oh, and trust me when I say, (a skilled H1B worker gets just as much as an American, there is no price break). - rosefu, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4That is a problem with American cultural norms (de-emphasized education) rather than a problem with the legislation itself. To let companies hire foreign tech workers unchecked would only be a temporary bandaid on the symptom rather than treating it.
Perhaps if we paid these highly skilled engineers with advanced degrees as much as we paid certain other professions (again, cultural norms go against paying those technical skills more than what we pay our CEOs and celebrities), Americans would have more incentive to go into these fields rather than flock to business schools. - VitriolAndAngst, on 10/11/2007, -5/+9@SquirrelOnFire,
"How about congress critters working to support the free market that has increased the wealth of the majority of the world, and is continuing to do so. If other countries are going to hate us for being capitalist, lets at least enjoy the benefits of capitalism (growth, interconnectedness, peace among trading partners*).
*usually
"
>> Got any specific success stories to point to on that? Real buying power in countries that have become involved in this globalism have been going down for MOST of the people. Of all the happy talk about outsourcing, I don't see all the happy people everyone keeps mentioning. Though there is a lot of money flowing into India and China, just mostly into the hands of a few. Same old, same old.
In fact, Mexico outsources some jobs to China... is it that there are some jobs even Mexicans won't do? Or is it about chasing the lower dollar? Insurance companies took data entry jobs and sent them to Ireland. Now that Ireland has a good economy, and rising wages, those jobs have gone to India. But, even though Ireland is one of the few Success stories -- they aren't making money doing data entry anymore, they do it through public (government paid for) education and government protections on business. You know, stuff Conservatives fight against all the time.
If a company pays less or more, to assemble a hamburger for you ... they are still going to price that hamburger at something you are willing to pay. Profits come at the expense of workers. But, in order to rip you off, all we here about economies is "supply and demand."
China, however, doesn't allow foreign ownership in their country. Their economy and standard of living is booming (for now, until Global Warming and the energy crunch crash this party -- along with the US becoming a bad market).
Government protectionism has allowed many asian countries to become profiecient in electronics and aerospace -- areas we once dominated. The only thing America is producing more of is prison guards and copyright lawyers. Well, if we can get everyone to allow us to copyright the work of Chinese and Indian engineers -- what could be the problem in that economic model? - qwertydvorak, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4i think of it like a pipe that has burst at home. do i mop up the floor while the water keeps pouring in, or do i shut the flow off before deciding what to do with the water that got out ?
- lordmike, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4"I think they are trying to find qualified labor. The US isn't educating enough citizens in engineering and science."
Why would any kid out of high school go into these fields, knowing full well that their jobs will be taken by foreigners on the cheap...
There is no interesting these fields anymore, and there is a good reason why... outsourcing and the H1B visa program. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5And, the less the executives pay the workers, the more they can pay themselves.
- Novagenesis, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6@Skally
"If you ran a company, would you hire/fire based on where they were born or their qualifications?"
I'd hire/fire based on price.
I'd rather 10 mediocre guys who can't speak english for 30k each to 6 great american guys at 50k each. Now realize those 10 visa workers AREN'T mediocre... they might be almost as (or as) good as the american... you also have a lot more workers and a lot less lost if you have to fire one...
But then, when I first graduated, I interviewed for a job I knew to be a shoe-in. I had more skills specific to the job than they expected, especially for an entry level Programming job... They even told me that, right before telling me the other applicant was a Russian with a PHD in Computer Science... asking 30k/year - tucsonwc, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5It is NOT about education folks.
It is about cost of labor.
There is no way an american can compete with someone in Shanghai who can be hired at a senior level doing technology work for $30K a year. The loading at my present company is that they can hire FIVE engineers in China for the cost of ONE engineer here in the US.
Going back to get another degree or technical certification will NOT allow a US Worker to compete with a lower wage rate.
Unless the goal here is to drive the middle class into third world living conditions. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4THIS is awesome AMERICA before FOREIGNERS! We are living here and we are Americans we need to support OURSELVES NOT other countries and their families. America has enough poor and homeless we shall not be outsourced!
- geekee, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4"The fact that H1b quota reached its capacity in less then 2 days this years, speaks volumes of the fact that companies are trying to find cheap labor."
I think they are trying to find qualified labor. The US isn't educating enough citizens in engineering and science. - lordmike, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4"Speaks volumes that white collar unemployment is basically nothing and there just aren't enough people. Finding a decent programmer these days is close to impossible."
Funny... the unemployment rate for programmers is over 12%.... I'm sure SOMEONE in that group can do their job... - SquirrelOnFire, on 10/11/2007, -37/+40How about congress critters working to support the free market that has increased the wealth of the majority of the world, and is continuing to do so. If other countries are going to hate us for being capitalist, lets at least enjoy the benefits of capitalism (growth, interconnectedness, peace among trading partners*).
*usually - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Squirrelonfire: "How about congress critters working to support the free market"
The ultimate unregulated free labour market was tried out 90 years ago in the Belgian Congo..
.. It created company bonded slavery
The H1B Visa system means foreign workers are bonded to the company that sposors them.
It might not be quite as a bad as colonial slavery but THEY ARE indentured employees. -
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