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Ouch! Judge Rules Vonage Can't Sign Up Any New Customers

news.yahoo.com — A judge has effectively barred Internet phone carrier Vonage from signing up new customers as punishment for infringing on patents held by Verizon, though the company will be allowed to continue servicing existing customers. Vonage is planning to appeal.

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  • zombieooo, on 10/12/2007, -46/+23Vonage sucks. I had their service in 2005 and was having a problem with people calling me not being able to hear what I was saying. I called their customer service from a land line and after waiting on hold for 20 minutes, and finally being able to talk to a live person, their customer support network had the exact same problem. After talking to them, all of a sudden they couldn't hear my end of the conversation. The support rep would say, "hello, hello are you still there?" After a minute or two they would hang up. I had to call back several times and wait through the queue, just to have the same issue.

    After finally getting a technician to test the connection to my VOIP router successfully, they said the hardware was bad. They offered to replace my router for free, and I agreed to send my existing one back. They charged me $80 for a new router the same day. When I got it, it had the same problem.

    I decided to cancel at that point and tried to get my money back for their router that was supposed to be "free". It took me another month to get credited $80, and they still charged me for 2 months after I canceled. These guys are worse that AOL.

    The cheap price is not worth the lame service and support.
    • sideshowRAHEEM, on 10/12/2007, -7/+51@zombieooo

      Your ISP probably sucks that's why you Vonage service sucks VOIP service is only as good as the ISP it's connected to if your dropping packets or have high latency on your Internet connection your gonna have choppy/one way audio.
    • digg911, on 10/12/2007, -4/+28Must have been your internet connection. We've been using vonage at my company at multiple locations for 2 years now and the call quality is as good as landline.
    • jartek, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27That's too bad, first voip company to go public is going under. Not that I have a preference as to which company that was, but I was excited to see a company with big $$ really take voip to the next level. I'm looking forward to worldwide adoption of voip so that long distance calls are a thing of the past, especially as cellphones are taking on the functionality. Then I'll be able to have a tricked out deregulated Japanese cellphone and have indound/outbound calls be local.
    • guitarh3ro, on 10/12/2007, -17/+3woohoo, woohoo hoo!
    • PleaseJustDie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Must be your ISP, I've had vonage since '05 and kept my same box moving from Washington to Arizona and again Moving from the outskirts of Phoenix to the center of Phoenix and never once had a problem with the service.

      I'll be pissed if verizon makes vonage go under, I'll probably move to Skype's VoIP offering if it does, I definately won't EVER do business with verizon if I can avoid it.
    • Sh0cker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7In the defense of Vonage I have to call ***** on your part zombie. I've had Vonage since the early part of 05, haven't had any problems.

      A good friend of mine has had vonage since before me, he had the 1 way audio problem. It was a problem on His end that we fixed.

      And for the record I've never had a 1-way audio problem when calling their customer service line. But, I've only called it once.

      But it's typical for customers to blame a company for problems that are on the customers end.
    • cbbspike, on 10/12/2007, -9/+13It is not your ISP. Basically you just need to stop all your downloads, and ask your little brother to get off of the internet whenever you are talking on the phone... so "no internet and phone at the same time"... it is like when you take a shower you need to disconnect your refrigerator. There is no such thing as multitasking on your utilities.

      I had Vontage, and I had the same problem, their response was for me to stop using the internet when I was talking on the phone. I had a 8MB at the time with Comcast that worked like a champ with Skype Phone, no matter what I was doing on the line.
    • monosyth, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5i have vonage and it drops call all the time. i am not happy with it and need to switch back to landline... i have a great internet connection, so i don't really know why it doesn't work well.
    • cheezedaze, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5From what I read, there are 2.2 million people out there who ARE satisfied with their Vonage service. 2.1 mil if you count the morons who would keep the service if it sucked. The only smart thing Verizon can do is completely back off and take the bone they got from the previous ruling and bury it. That's 2.2 million potential customers who are likely satisfied with the Vonage service that you will PISS OFF. The only other thing they could do is take over Vonage, and I'll gladly find a different option... like a nice big Cingular package.
    • thedobber, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2@Shocker

      If the company can't effectively identify and/or address the problem, then they've lost. They advertise their service as so easy to use and rock solid. If Joe Six Pack has to struggle to get it working, he's not going to bother.

      I'm on RoadRunners digital service. We had a period of time when we had a similar one sided conversation drop out. Was also losing some of my digital channels. I called TW, there was a truck on my driveway that evening and a technician up on a ladder stringing in a new cable to my house. Then he came in and replaced all the splitters, ran a new ground wire and rung out every wire in the house. Point being, they came out and addressed the issue immediately.

      Other than that blip, the service has been rock solid.
    • Y0tsuya, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4If you're having problems with VOIP quality, you need to figure out how to do packet shaping on the "router".
    • sideshowRAHEEM, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Just to give everyone an update Vonage just was granted an emergency stay of the injunction issued this morning by the U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Va. The emergency stay granted by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington, D.C., allows Vonage to continue to sell its services to new customers while delivering uninterrupted service to our existing customers.
    • scott1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1What ever happened to "cruel and unusual punishment"?
    • drderail, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Update: http://digg.com/business_finance/Vonage_Appeals_court_says_we_can_continue_to_sign_up_customers
    • fudoshin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I have to be honest and say that I'm taking pleasure in their troubles. I look at it as retribution for making it necessary for me to change the channel or mute the TV and look away every time their annoying-as-hell theme song accompanying their less than stellar and sometimes downright stupid commercials would come on.
    • KMartSheriff, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12***** Verizon.
    • tb0n3r, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Interesting.... Everyone is telling him that his internet connection sucks, he needs to traffic shape, whatever...

      All that may be true. But what about the 80 dollar charge on a free replacement router? What about the month it took for them to refund his 80 bucks? And what about the 2 months of charges after he canceled? All valid complaints, I'd say.
    • odinfire, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Umm... all you need to do is set up your QOS settings in your router and you wont have to worry about dropouts during heavy downloading. Is it really that hard to figure out?
    • Drahkar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Every company is going to have someone who had problems with them. That's just the nature of things. I know you could get as many or more people to hum the horrors of Verizon or Qwest.

      Personally I've been using Vonage since just after they opened. I've been very happy with the service. I also work in IT and have dealt with VOIP Phone systems. People need to understand that VoIP phone systems take a LOT of bandwidth to run. And it needs to be dedicated bandwidth. Comcast does not count because it is an aggregated connection that changes what your actual speed is depending on how many people in your area are using your circuit. This all effects performance and latency which in turn effects the quality of the line. AND, with Comcast what you don't know is that you may be getting a high download speed, but the uploads are always locked to 256kbps. Thats how they are able to cut costs.
    • twit987, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Worst. Stock. EvAr.

      http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/1y/v/vg
    • zombieooo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I had Time Warner Road Runner with 6Mbps download and 512kbps upload speed at the time when I canceled. Never any problems with my Road Runner service at my old house. I was also a customer with Vonage for 8 months before these problems appeared. I never had any latency problems. Most of the time I used my service, no computers were connected to my Vonage Linksys router.

      Also, when I called their customer support from my work, their customer service was experiencing the exact same problems I was encountering. Multiple service representatives had the same issue. Glad I never invested in this crap company.
  • roscoetoon, on 10/12/2007, -4/+32Bet I still see their commercial with the annoying theme song.
    • Yez70, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You can still sign up for service on their website too.
  • arkmtech, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20I'm now glad I didn't invest, to be sure. :-(

    Vonage's IPO started at $17.00, and has plummeted ever since, now sitting around $3.37. (Yikes!) They have yet to post a profit as a company, and their legal battles with Verizon and Sprint/Nextel over patent infringement may very be the last nails in their coffin.
    • wonderchemist, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5Sell Sell Sell... Opps the market is closed for good Friday...
  • fpssledge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16I wouldn't be surprised if this was Verizon's plan. Make the company gag for air, and then acquire vonage. (I'm not saying it's true, just a wild guess)
    • CraigJ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I think (at least I hope) the SEC might have something to say about that. I love Vonage - been using it since early 2004, but if Verizon acquires them I'm going somewhere else.
    • iandouglas736, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@CraigJ - same here -- Verizon refused to sell me 'naked DSL' at the location I was living, so I signed up for Vonage and cable modem, and the day it all came in and was installed, I cancelled everything with Verizon (phone line I never used, and DSL). Next place I moved, they wouldn't sell me naked DSL either (not neeting to pay $27/month for their basic phone service), which I thought was illegal -- wasn't a bill passed to force phone companies to sell naked DSL?

      Anyway, I hate Verizon. I don't know if Time Warner's VoIP service is any good but if Verizon acquires Vonage, I'd rather use that with my cable modem than go back to Verizon.
    • swordedge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3your wild guess is on the money. Verizon lost me due to mediocre service that they charged my about $40 bucks for. I don't make a lot of long distance calls. The funny part is that Verizon thinks they can get me back by killing Vonage.

      PS, Vonage, like all streaming services, requires a router that can prioritize it. That is, my service was spotty till I replaced my router with a better one. The Vonage router doesn't do VPN and that was critical for me. The idiot technician claimed that no one ever does VPN with their service. It took me 30 seconds to find forum entries on that very subject. I put in a good router and put the Vonage one inside my network. This works great and I can even use it with Bittorrent going at the same time.

      I will wait and see

    • teamgwho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@! iandouglas736

      regarding naked DSL (aka dry loop) yes it's required to be offered but it doesn't function as well as regular dsl the farther away you get from the telco CO. There's also other issues that can come up which wouldn't affect regular DSL but will impair dry loop
    • VinSomething, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@teamgwho

      DSL w/ POTS service does not have a better, or worse, range than naked DSL. The only difference is that with "regular DSL" dialtone originatesa the POTS switch and then merges with the DSL signal at the DSLAM's POTS splitter card on it's way to your home. In naked DSL there is no POTS signal from the POTS switch.

      Naked DSL isn't inferior to regular DSL in any way. In fact, one could possibly argue that it's better because there is no chance at the POTS frequencies bleeding over and interfering with the DSL signal. There is no technical reason why telcos couldn't offer naked DSL earlier (other than any internal ordering/process systems). It was just a means to hold their customers captive and help stop the huge wireline losses that they were seeing.
  • Zolk, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2I guess it's time to call Comcast and order their digital voice service.
    • Eyebee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I kept getting pestered by Comcast a few weeks ago, when they first made their digital voice service available here. However it's $40 a month, and much more limited than Vonage. No free international, no, fax line option. Also I got pissed as they called once three times in one day, and I told them in no uncertain terms to quit, as Vonage were cheaper, and there was no way I was going to switch to a more expensive service when they one I had was fine. I suppose I'd have to consider it IF Vonage went under, but I'll hang on at the moment, and see. Damn Verizon! Motivated by greed I'm sure.
    • crawfishsoul, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Comcast's digital voice != VOIP
    • LiberalsSuckAss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"I guess it's time to call Comcast and order their digital voice service."

      Trust me - you do NOT want to trade Vonage for Comcast *ANYTHING*.

      I'll take toothpicks under my fingernails before I'd willingly choose Comcast for anything whatsoever. When you have the tech support / customer service phone number memorized, you know that something must be wrong with their service. Comcast (and any other company that puts minimum-wage frycooks on their front line tech support) deserve to be ridiculed and avoided.

      I've only had to contact Vonage customer service once, and that was because of a network screwup that was my own fault. Other than that, every single thing I've ever needed to do with Vonage has been accomplished immediately and extremely well via their web site.

      I'm currently using a screaming Charter Cable 10meg/1meg cable modem package with Vonage and have no complaints whatsoever with either service. Charter's DVR cable offerings, well, that's another issue - but that's off topic anyway.

      I recommend Vonage to everyone I can. It's been a great experience and I hope this doesn't sink them.
  • Eyebee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I've had vonage for a couple of years. Quality is excellent. I researched the options first.

    Option one was BellSouth = DirectTV + DSL
    Way too expensive as we make a lot of long distance calls. The options from BellSouth cost around $85 a month, that Vonage offer for $25. Also DSL is too slow, and BellSouth restrict your outgoing mail to their sucky server.

    Option Two was Knology.
    Limited phone service, more expensive.

    Option Three
    Comcast. Cable TV + High Speed Intnernet + Vonage.
    Worked out the least expensive of the options, and never had any real cause for complaint. Recently changed to Voange Business Plan, and got the free fax line too. Often Makes Calls to UK, and France and Spain on occasions too, and have a UK virtual number set up.

    IF Voange was to go under, not sure what route I would take, but NOT going to go for BellSouth that's for certain, or AT&T as they now are. Too expensive. Period.
    • crawfishsoul, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4In the Phoenix area, similar scenario, different players. I'm just glad I got on Vonage when I did. (ducks and hopes Vonage figures out how to stay alive)

      So if Verizon owns the patent, why aren't they offering an alternative to Vonage? Yeah, I know the answer. But ***** Verizon in their big corporate asses.
    • dreicher, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@crawfishsoul

      "So if Verizon owns the patent, why aren't they offering an alternative to Vonage?"

      VoiceWing by Verizon: http://www22.verizon.com/ForYourHome/VOIP/VOIPHome.aspx
    • ryllharu, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"So if Verizon owns the patent, why aren't they offering an alternative to Vonage?"

      Because that's how patents work. You can exclude whatever and whoever the hell you want from making something you have a patent on. But, it also doesn't give you the rights to make what you have patented. Maybe there is some other company out there that holds the patent to the key for Version to make an alternative. That is what makes patent law a funny thing.

      Who suffers? The consumer. But you can't tell me that if you just came up with the greatest service ever that everyone wants (say...music transmitted directly into the brain, no speakers ever needed again) and someone made a cheap knockoff while you had the patent for it, that you wouldn't try to stop them from selling their version.
    • crawfishsoul, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Thank you dreicher. And ryllharu, thanks, I know how patents work and I wasn't disputing Verizon's right to protect their patent. If they weren't offering a VOIP alternative then I would have a big issue with any telecom hindering new technology because it competed with their own, more expensive product.

      Edit: Any diggers using Verizon's VoiceWing? Reviews?
    • squegie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I have two business lines and my cell phone line. I have been experimenting with VOIP providers for that last year or so. I started with packet8, which IMHO was wonderful, except for their caller ID. packet8 is the cheapest, and requires the least bandwidth. I literally hooked it up to a dialup account and placed calls -- people did notice my voice was very "digital" over the dial-up, but none of the others would even complete the call over dial-up. The only reason I don't have packet8 now is because they didn't have caller ID with name -- just the number. I would call people and they wouldn't answer because they didn't recognize the number.

      I currently use Vonage on one line, and VoiceWing on the other. Vonage is cream of the crop, but does require the most bandwidth. I went from a 6MB cable pipe to a 5MB DSL pipe, and vonage calls started fading out on me. The VoiceWing continued to work just fine. VoiceWing is actually a decent product and just a bit cheaper than Vonage.

      VoiceWing has somehow reset my pin to the voicemail twice since I've had it. I use simultaneous ring, and my cell phone's voicemail is what picks up the call if I miss it, so I really don't have to check my VoiceWing voicemail that much -- also, it can be checked online. I didn't forget the pin either -- I keep it written down in an encrypted file on my computer. VoiceWing somehow reset/lost my pin. The only way to change your pin is to call them up and have them change it. Then, you can change it again using a touch-tone phone. Again, not a big deal since I rarely use their voicemail, but it shouldn't happen in the first place. Maybe if you don't use it for 3 months, it deletes it?

      The main gripes with the VoiceWing service is their web site and billing structure. VoiceWing has some nifty features to sort and search through your call logs, but you can't change anything of substance through the website. However, the real kicker is the billing. You enter a credit card when you sign up. On your anniversary date, it charges your card. If the card declines for any reason, you get an email. Asking you to verify your card. After 8 hours it seems, people calling you get a "no longer in service" message, and you can only call out to customer service. The only way to verify your card is to call customer service. When you call them, they typically can't put a payment through right away, but queue it for the midnight run -- they will reactivate your account however.

      Anyways, Verizon's VoiceWing seems technically better, but the web interface is lacking. I will admit though that when I call customer service, they answer quickly and are fairly helpful. Whatever they are using for billing/CC processing needs redone. The price is decent.

      I'm going to keep the vonage on the one line. On the other (main) line, I'm switching it back to a land line. I'm under Embarq and they've come out with a cheaper long distance package for business. A DSL line is $25/month, and $15 on top of that for unlimited long distance. For business it's $25/month for unlimited long distance. I'm added everything up, and it's actually cheaper for me to go with Embarq for both the data and telephone than it would be to go with vonage for the business package, which is essential for the caller id to show your business instead of your name. Additionally, I don't have to worry about if I'm maxing out my pipe when a call comes in.

      BTW, VoiceWing doesn't offer a business package. I when I signed up, I used my business name for my first and last name and they accepted it. Vonage is a bit smarter, I think.

      Bottom line:
      Packet8 was like a dream come true. If they could ever straighten out their caller id, they would be the best.
      if you're residential and don't care, they might be the best
      Verizon VoiceWing good price, good phone quality, serious potential
      Vonage is the most expensive, requires the most bandwidth, but is going to present the least problems. This is the one I would recommend for the majority of people

      If you live in Embarq (formerly Sprint) territory, call them up and get their rates. It might work out cheaper for you -- and land line is going to be more reliable than packet based.




  • killerofkiller, on 10/12/2007, -4/+156 diggs.. still not on front page...wow
  • geojams, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2If Vonage goes under, switch to Broadvoice. They had some issues last year, but recently they have been great. It's cheaper than Vonage and works with Asterisk too.
    • foxymcfox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3...this comment brought to you by Broadvoice.
    • geojams, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I don't work for BV. I just like their service.
  • ayax79, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7This is extremely lame, there has to be prior art. Another decision made by a judge who obviously knows nothing about the technology. This could impact everything in the SIP world not to mention all the other similiar providers like Broadvoice. What is verizon going to attack Digium next?
  • TBolt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Damn, this sucks. We've been using Vonage in the house for about a year now, and the service has been excellent. I'm just now getting ready to set up a home office and was planning on using Vonage. Damn telephone company mega-pricks just do everything they can to kill better technology.

    (I worked in DSL when it first came out. Believe me...I've seen what these ILECs do to kill competition.)
  • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9What is the patent?

    http://news.com.com/Verizon+sues+Vonage+for+VoIP+patent+infringement/2100-7352_3-6085396.html

    Sending voice in packets over broadband. Who the ***** issued that gem?
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Ran out of time so I'll continue here.

      What does this mean? Well, you are no longer allowed to use any VoIP, period. Unless it is verizon.

      Does your pc come with a microphone? Don't try using it with your IM.


      They ought to be able to throw this ***** out of court. People send their voice over the internet every day, suddenly Verizon decides it wants to defend their patent? Sorry but I'm fairly certain the basic concept of VoIP is public domain now.
    • shableep, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2yah. exactly. and Verizon knows it. i hate to see these ridiculous smothering tactics actually succeed. it's so damn monopolistic.
    • dilbertmouse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@noahhoward

      TFA: "...Vonage infringed on patents held by Verizon that describe technology for completing phone calls between VoIP users and people using phones on the traditional public switched network, authenticating VoIP callers, validating VoIP callers' accounts, fraud protection, providing enhanced features, using Wi-Fi handsets with VoIP services and monitoring VoIP caller usage."

      In other words, Vonage is using technologies similar to those that Verizon patented which manage the Vonage system and allow the Vonage VoIP system to interact with plain old telephone systems. This has nothing to do with instant messages. It has nothing to do with sending your voice over the Internet. Most of this trial seems to be focused on the border between VoIP and everyone else's phone systems.
  • jcaino, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7this ***** blows.
  • darkwolfbc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I hope things get fixed and worked out. I have been with vonage for about 6 months now. I love it. I have never had any issues. Guess I should look for a backup service just in case. Im not going back to verizon. Why pay $50/month for local and long distance. Screw Verizon
  • Merrick178, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I find the Vonage advertisement cute... (Google adirony?)
  • tryferos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3And nothing in effect yet, Vonage can still sign up new customers...check out the link from vonage's website:

    http://pr.vonage.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=236936

    "Vonage Receives Temporary Stay In Verizon Patent Litigation, Continues to Sell Service

    HOLMDEL, N.J., April 6, 2007 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX News Network/ -- Vonage today secured a temporary stay from U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington, DC. The stay enables Vonage to continue to sign up new customers until the Appellate court can hear Vonage's request for a permanent stay. The Court's ruling allows Vonage to continue to provide phone service to existing customers.

    Earlier today the U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Va. indicated it would enter an injunction against Vonage effective April 12, 2007 in connection with certain Verizon technology on which it was found to be infringing. The Court indicated that Vonage would be barred from acquiring new customers during its appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit in Washington, D.C. In response, Vonage filed for and received an emergency stay of the injunction from the Federal Circuit. "



  • derekknight, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2We just signed up for Vonage and frikken LOVE it.

    Our business was paying about $140 a month for various lines and services through ATT & Sprint. Now we are down to $35 a month through Vonage.

    ***** the greedy old-school phone corporations crushing innovated new companies!
  • kolop1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2YEY Verizon get to be a monopoly for another day.
  • TBolt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Just noticed this on CNET: The judge's ruling was successfully appealed...

    http://news.com.com/Vonage+Appeals+court+says+we+can+continue+to+sign+up+customers/2061-10804_3-6174148.html?tag=nefd.lede
    • dreicher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Vonage received a "stay" until next week, meaning they can continue to sign up new customers until their appeal is heard. The judge's ruling was not overturned or appealed yet.
  • Karyyk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Another pleased Vonage customer here. I love the virtual phone numbers and the call-forwarding has become a godsend. The only times I've ever had issues was when I had issues with my ISP (godawful Time Warner Cable, second only to Comcast in worthlessness). Hopefully they'll find a way to keep afloat...
  • shableep, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Verizon is a monopoly in the making. They're trying to be one, at least. They do everything a monopoly would do and they haven't even reached the actual status yet. Christ... Here's to hoping they never meet their goal.
  • Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1This is America, we don't do free market anymore. What cracks me up is that the conservatives will blame the liberals yet it is the conservatives that are locking in the monopolies and crushing innovation.
  • digitallysick, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Vonage should just change the software and then start and extreme win back campaign against verizon.
  • andycr512, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yet another stupid judge enforcing a stupid law that resulted from a stupid idea.

    And they complain about how the antitrust trial was "interfering with Microsoft's business"...
  • digitalutopia, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'll never ever ever give verizon a penny of my hard earned money.
  • DarkPrince11, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I just use Optimum Voice..comes with my internet service and call quality is great!...
  • bradbaxter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1 think Packet8 is the best. They build their own hardware and have their own network -- Vonage uses all third party components to provide their VoIP. They're basically a glorified reseller. I recommend getting Packet8 through a Master Agent in order to get the savings offered by a coupon code, like: http://www.telebay.com/telebay/packet8.html
  • gjmacd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Verizon is out to kill all VOIP... I've lived this first hand. They are an evil, evil company with bad
    intentions. They are seeing the end of the line for their phone service and trying hard to kill every
    competitor they can.

    Here's my story.

    Ok, I own a small software company with revenues around 1 million a year, we have several employee's.
    At one time we were on Verizon, I had 5 Centrix lines into our building. Being billed about $400 a month
    for those lines including DSL and long distance. The call volume was very low, maybe 400 minutes usage
    per month for about 4 people. That's NOT a lot of usage.

    Just so you know Centrix allows businesses to have more than one phone number on and gives you
    some basic dialing services that businesses use. If you're interested, Google Centrix. Its not big deal,
    mainly a POTS line into your building -- we had it hooked to an old (donated) NEC PBX that worked
    great for our business.

    When our Centrix contract was up with Verizon in October of 2004, I got a call from Verizon. They told
    me that the contract was up and that we needed to renew or lose our Centrix service.

    I should point out here at the time, I had called Verizon on 8 different occasions for billing discrepancies.
    Each time, I had found that they were overcharging us about $49 - $60 dollar every billing period for
    services that we already had with Centrix, but were doubly billing us based on services that they could
    not figure out how to remove. I'd get a credit, then the same charges would show up. We calculated
    about $3,000 - $5,000 in fee's that we should not of paid in the 7+ years we had started the business.

    I had finally come to the conclusion that since we had a "business account", we were getting fees and
    "hidden" billing costs that they try to push down any customer that was a "business". Seems business
    can afford to get screwed based on the rules at Verizon.

    In May 2004, we had planned a move to another office across town, so I decided to not renew the contract.

    I decided to drop our lines back to regular "business" lines. The rep. on the phone explained that if I did
    that our monthly fee would go up $50 per line. Since we had 5 lines, that was a lot of money. I then asked
    what my options were. She said, "well, you can do a month to month service on the Centrix and when
    you move, you can cancel the lines, that way you can keep the same service without having to cancel
    the service and pay more."

    I asked very simply. "I'm not renewing the contract, I'm just continuing to pay the monthly, I don't want to renew."

    Rep: "Correct".

    Me: "Is there any cancellation fee?"

    Rep: "No, your out of contract, if you were in contract, you'd have to pay $200 per line cancellation fee. "

    So I continued the monthly service to May and then we moved to our new space. I then had decided to move ALL our
    phones over to a service called Packet8. Packet8, much like Vonage, is a VOIP company, but they have a business
    service with an EXCELLENT hosted PBX system that is not only professional, but is very cost effective. We pay
    now about $189 a month for 3 lines which is all customized for our business etc. etc. Its wonderful.

    Anyway, back to Verizon.

    Once we decided to move to Packet8, I submitted the Ports to Packet8 to get our numbers ported over.
    The numbers ported fairly easily, except our fax number. That seemed to get stuck and was considered "Canceled".
    So I called Verizon. Verizon rep on the phone tell me that we never paid our "cancellation fee for the Centrex system".

    When I explained the situation, she could not have been more rude and combative telling me that it was my fault
    for not getting things in writing, where upon, I asked for where my signature was on the renewed contract (which
    is why she claimed we owed them a fee). They said that they don't need a signature and that the original contract
    was "automatically renewed". When I explained their rep told me otherwise, they said I lied.

    Nice.

    Bottom line: We pay them a dollar a month so that we don't go into collections. Its not enough money to hire
    a lawyer, but its enough money that it hurts. We also lost our fax number because once we did not pay that
    bill, they canceled that number (which was the master on the account).

    My belief. They saw the ports come in from Packet8 and put someone on it to try to make our lives miserable.

    Vonage? I also own Vonage, and I have not had any major problems. The cost is wonderful. My wife complains
    of periodic echo's and dropped calls, but you know what? Its not worse than our cellular service and when we
    were on Verizon at the house, the bill was never lower than $80 a month and WE NEVER CALLED OR USED
    THE PHONE. We could never get them to remove services we didn't want because there was some we needed
    (caller id) and of course thats on the package which is $32.95 a month.

    With Vonage you get what you pay for, its a good service and I'll be sad to have to change to another provider,
    but I have to say, If I do, I'll be to a cell phone and I'll port our home number to a cell phone instead of going back
    to a goddamn Verizon.

    By the way, Packet8 has residential service, I'll move to that before they get taken to task as well.

  • juliocgrajales, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1and another one, and another one and another one bites the dust
    • juliocgrajales, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1spoke to quickly, vonage still lives for now
  • rokinroj, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I just now (like 30 mins ago) switched from Vonage to VOIP.com. Although I have read mixed reviews about VOIP.com, I felt like I had to jump off of the sinking ship that is Vonage. Plus, more features for a lower monthly fee. With VOIP.com I get fax, blacklist/whitelist features, plus some others that I either werent available with Vonage or cost extra. Anyone have any experience with VOIP.com?
  • digdigger, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1They must've won the appeal or this is fake news or they are doing something wrong, because I signed up as far as just before giving them credit card number.
  • EvilCamel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Don't know about Vonage, but I've been extremely happy with SunRocket FWIW....
  • razortongue9000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"It's the difference of cutting off oxygen as opposed to the bullet in the head," Vonage lawyer Roger Warin said.

    I laugh... not because I think Vonage sucked or anything, but because I can't stand their commercials.
    Other than that, I'm sorry to offend... haha!
  • soupcancooloff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I have 2 lines with Sunrocket in my house (my internet connection is 5mbps down, 356 kbps up) both with 2 year contracts (2x$200) and thats about $8.33/month for each line. I haven't had any major problems and minor ones were resolved within a day. I recommend sunrocket to everyone when the subject comes up.
  • radio1mike, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Hmmm. Sunrocket- I'll have to look that up.

    I got Vonage in Sept 2005. Free (with rebate) telephone adapter, free first month, and a $20 Circuit City giftcard.
    I don't have one complaint about it. Before that I had Comcast (landline) Telephone, and even they were better and cheaper than Verizon.
    • teamgwho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1sunrocket has more complaints then almost any VOIP provider out there. research it if you don't believe me.
  • AaronD12, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Screw Vonage anyway. They have no "anonymous call block" nor call blocking based on caller ID. They've been promising their subscribers these features for over 3 years.

    I went to Lingo and have been very happy. Same call sound quality, cheaper, AND they have anonymous call block and call blocking based on caller ID.
  • sark666, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't like vonage on one hand locking down their devices and not being able to use asterisk or different atas for example. But a patent on how calls transfer from the interest to the phone system is nuts. This won't just stop vonage, but every voip provider that follows. I just don't get it, voip is a broad term used for vonage, skype and others. But the standard voip uses sip (session initiation protocol). Asterisk, voip phones, and pretty much all the ata's out there use sip. How can something that was accepted as a standard all this time, have no one notice there was a patent on this?
  • teamgwho, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2disclaimer: I work for Verizon landline in NJ in customer service.

    to anyone who says that "if you're getting lousy service with Vonage it must be your ISP" Consumer Reports stated that Vonage had more complaints then verizon did even though Verizon had 10x as many customers. I am not sure if that was nationwide or in just one state off the top of my head. Regardless, when you have 10x as many complaints as your competitor, either everybody's ISP sucks, or it's Vonage that sucks.... Hmmm... what are the common denominator here?

    Bottom line, Vonage sucks.

    That said, VOIP and cable based phone service has completely benefited consumers in that it has driven down prices by local telcos and really made them work for their money (and when I say they I mean me, I have to make the case for our service vs theirs every day) Price aside though, a local telco is vastly superior in terms of call quality, and reliability. Consumer Reports said it, as have numerous major nwspaper and magazines that researched it.

    Bottom line: you pay cheap, you get cheap.

    Same thing with Verizon Wireless. They're the most expensive carrier around. But they have the highest customer satisfaction ratings of any wireless provider.

    notice a pattern?
    • Goosemaster, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Bottom line Vonage sucks?


      I like

      "bottom line: Verizon Customer Service sucks ass"

      And yes I shell out my precious $$ for verizon wireless because they are the best around here, but let me be clear, I have always had to deal with major crap from the other side of Verizon. From FIOS to POTS over billing to outright lies, to blaming crap on contractors to everything. Their customer service is atrocious and I don't know a SINGLE person with them that hasn't gotten over billed at least few times.

      Hell, even Verizon Wireless does it..it's pathetic that I have to call, but I deal with it because they are the best wireless carrier.


      Oh, and with Vonage....not a single complaint.

      And no I do work for any of them



      addendum: and about 2% of the world knows how to setup QoS correctly. Unless they are downloading porn 24/7 or using BT, lag and jitter and the like from residential customers is due to the router or the line.....usually both.
    • thumperings, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@teamGhwho wow clueless and an ass a winning combination . Nothing is worse than Verizon dipship. Vonage is fine. You are just too stupid to even knwo what you're talking about. People compain about Vonage not realizing it's their computer or their isp or thier computer usage, they don't get it so they blame the "phone" company. Youare stupid as they are. (Of course there is no email notification so you won't even know I commented on your c0mment) The only reason I hate Digg..fix that and i'll like you again.
    • teamgwho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2welll.. in one article today a Vonage spokesman said that they expect a turnover of 650,000 customers, almost 25% of their customer base. Without signing up new customers, they'll have no customers in only 3 years.

      Why do you think that 25% of their customers are leaving? if 25% of them actually leave, how many more are unhappy but don't leave because it's a hassle, or becausae they don't think they'll do any better or because they figure, well it's cheap so I guess I'll have to suffer?

      seriously. I'd love an answer.
    • teamgwho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ goosemaster

      there's a difference between customer service and the service itself. I fully admit that verizon customer service sucks, I could write a book because i mwork there and see how the company pays lips service to the idea of customer service. it's sell to people, even if you're sending them to repair cause their phone service isn't working.

      that said... local telco service is more reliable and has a higher quality of connection then any VOIP. read the research.

      I read something interesting in an article today where a Vonage spokesman said that they expect a turnover of 650,000 customers, almost 25% of their customer base. Without signing up new customers, they'll have no customers in only 3 years.

      Why do you think that 25% of their customers are leaving? if 25% of them actually leave, how many more are unhappy but don't leave because it's a hassle, or because they don't think they'll do any better or because they figure, well it's cheap so I guess I'll have to suffer? whether you want to say that their *service* sucks or their *customer service* sucks is irelevant. If that many people are that unhappy, then *vonage* sucks. the numbers speak for themselves.

      @ thumperings

      I notice nowhere do you actually provide a counterargument or any evidence for your opinion. See my above comment: how can anyone say that a company who loses 25% of their customers per year is a reliable provider of service and has satisfied customers?
    • foamweapons, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Where's our 200 billion dollars mother-*****?
      http://www.newnetworks.com/broadbandscandals.htm

      Sorry, couldn't resist.
  • slantyeyed, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1if you only met the people who work at the holmdel, nj site you wouldn't mind this one bit.
  • joev, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I just started up two lines with Vonage and I'll add another when I need it. If I can't have my IP telephone I'll switch to wireless. But I won't give AT&T or Verizon my business. I know their scam and the gig is over baby. We are waking up and it's time to throw them into the trash.
  • jackman3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Do do, do do do! Do do, do do do! Do do, do do do!
  • javis4142, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Can't get vonage? then go with packet8.
  • Mysk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This has already been over turned, Vonage is once again able to sign up customers. Reference: http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/107319870/article.pl
  •  

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