What is Digg?90 Comments
- cyberdork, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25Oil is up $4 over the last week. It was already at $51 and is now at $55.
- slickriven, on 10/12/2007, -7/+28Seriously, how long is it going to take you conspiracy theroists (A.K.A fools - including sfacets) to realize that the US government has NOTHING to do with OIL and gas prices. Educate yourselves and stop posting comments of Digg, the rest of us are sick of your bellyaching. Go bitch to OPEC.
- greenrider, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21Buried as inaccurate. Oil is up from $51 last week to $55.60 right now.
I have the Bloomberg screen in front of me. - mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17In related news, I found it ironic (and humorous) that the day after Bush declares we will cut fuel consumption by 20% that gas prices (at least in my city) went up 20%.
- MattyLite, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16You don't really understand how supply and demand works, do you? Now stop making all Americans look stupid on the internet . . . we have a bad enough stigma as it is.
- Chadster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9How will the oil executives afford to feed their families if these declines continue?
- hode, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@mrgreen4242 "Moving the pollution to a centralized location"
Read: New Jersey - WarPirate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I guess that must not have been the reason then. All this time you Bush haters were wrong?
- opnickc, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10@dagr
The 'long tailpipe' theory (the idea that using electric vehicles will just move pollution from the tailpipe of a car to the smokestack of a power plant) doesn't hold much water. Even on a 100% coal power grid, electric vehicles would still produce fewer emissions than gasolines (plus coal is an abundant domestic power source, unlike oil). And with alternative power (hydroelectric, wind, solar, nuclear, geothermal, etc), it's even cleaner. Even new coal plants can be built to be much more environmentally friendly than old plants or current automobiles.
Plus, with electric, it's much easier to change energy sources later since we don't need to make any changes to the automobile to do so. Running out of coal? Build more nuclear plants. The cars and infrastructure require no changes. Unlike now, where even with millions of ethanol cars on the road, E85 fuel is difficult to get. Imagine how hard it'll be to find hydrogen when those vehicles are first coming out. Electricity is much easier simply due to its versatility. - mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Moving the pollution to a centralized location is the best thing we can do. It can be contained and minimized more easily, regulation on emissions becomes a much simpler task, and a new technology that reduces pollution or increases efficiency can be deployed to 100,000s or millions of people with a single upgrade (rather than waiting a decade for everyone to purchase a new car).
As mentioned, alternative energy sources can be introduced more quickly with an electric car as well. In my area, wind power is catching on (I live near the Great Lakes) and as they build more and more windmills the price per kilowatt drops. I can get a combination of wind and garbage generated methane electricity for about 1.5 cents more per kWh than coal/nuke provided power right now. It'll only get better as coal gets more expensive and wind gets cheaper.
As for electric cars... well, I'd love one sure, but the tech just isn't there yet to truly replace the gas car. The best we can hope for is a plug in hybrid, preferably one that can burn a large range of fuels - gas, ethanol, bio/regular deisel. The Chevy Volt is a great step in the right direction, I think. I like the Prius and all, but you still HAVE to use gas. No way around it. The Volt gives me the option to limit my trips to 40 miles round trip (or 80 miles if I am staying somewhere I can charge up at for 6 hours) if I don't want to use any gas, or if gas prices spike and I want to wait it out, etc. It also lets people have a single highly efficient vehicle that can go 600 miles on a tank of gas. If the battery really does last for 10 years like GM is saying it could be the kick in the butt the rest of the industry needs to get cranking out the plug-in vehicles.
I wonder if GM will release a smaller, lighter, lower performance (slower acceleration, lower top speed) version that doesn't have the generator, gas engine, tanks, etc that is just a ~50 mile to the charge electric car. I'd buy something like that if it was - duke_nate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7nymex.com for me. $55.41. Oil is not falling sharply. Inaccurate Indeed.
- Arahka, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6What should we be using? Electric? That's incredibly inefficient during one of our usual winters. It's either oil or gas or $1200 per month for the electric bill (which then you have the electric plant using a ton of oil). It's a lose/lose/lose situation we've got here until they come up with something more efficient that doesn't use oil.
- aprigliano, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@ all of the above.
Electricity is a great way to disintermediate the source of power. A gas car can only run on gas. An electric car can get is source power from coal, nuclear, solar, hydroelectric, wind and whatever else is out there. Electric vehicles would give more choices. - waltwalt, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7While it is true that electric cars only transfer the pollution source from the car to the power plant, this in effect removes most of the smog/pollution generated from traffic in towns. And sure, burning oil and coal is dirty, but if you do some research into it, you will find that these can be made 100% clean with the appropriate scrubbing methods installed on their stacks.
Once electric cars are in full production/consumption laws should be made outlawing internal combustion engines in cities over a certain population, force the old cars into the country where there is more flora to absorb the emissions. At the sametime mandate oil/coal companies need to reduce harmful emissions by 75% within 2 years and 100% within 5 years.
Just my thoughts.
-w - TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@sirloin
"Bush's best friend is the leader of saudi arabia.
opec has been comlaining that suadia arabia wouldnt agree to production cuts to keep the price up.
Suadia arabia has also been selling barrels of oil cheaper to the us than the rest of the world.
Opec figures that once oil hits $50 as it has.. that S.A would finally agree to prices cuts"
Yes, it HAS to be that Bush is the world leader when it comes to crude oil prices. There is NO other explanation. Oh get ready, the short bus is here for you. Don't forget your tin foil hat!!!
No other explanation.....except for that crude oil sellers compete against each other and Saudi Arabia is trying to get back at Iran and therefore selling more barrels than them.... Even in a cartel there's competition. But I don't expect you to know that, they teach this kind of thing at a place we call "school". - taotehue, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@lbermude
"Converting Heat -> Electrity -> going trough power grid > going into batery > electric motor > move your car"
this is actually false. Generating electricity in Mass is much more efficient than using lots of small combustion engines to propel cars.Electrical Efficiency > Mechanical Efficiency. also steps can be taken to decentralize the grid with personal wind or solar that could also power your vehicle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car
also, its a battery. I have horrible spelling myself, but i run spell checker at least.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=battery
oops, i didn't realize that i had posted this in the wrong thread. Sorry digg. this should have gone in the conversation below. - Nougat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I grew up in the midwest, and we've always used natural gas for everything. Is there some force in action which prevents the cost effective delivery of natural gas to the northeast? I understand we have a fair amount of that left.
- Miso117, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I just read a nice article on the selling of Futures Contracts and how it influences current market value for fuel. What I fail to understand is how it is illegal for a dude to stand outside of a concert or sporting event and scalp a ticket, when the same thing is done 100 times a day in oil Futures Contracts by white collar sales execs. It's mind blowing really, that someone willing to pay a high price for a ticket is not allowed, but the world in general is held hostage to high oil prices to keep their homes warm or drive to work to make money to give away to their perspective government... Thank you OPEC...
- bmartin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@Ibermude
The heat from gasoline isn't what moves your car.
I'll never understand why people get dugg so far down for making a series of factual statements in support of reduced pollution and oil dependency. - mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Read: New Jersey"
I knew, eventually, we'd find something NJ was good for. - doyadigg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4What do you expect us to do? The house I live in (rural New Jersey) was built in the 80s and uses home heating oil. There is no natural gas pipeline to tap into and electric would be much more expensive. You should think before you try to cast people as Luddites because they use oil.
- confusionbliss, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3If people who never go camping stopped driving around SUVs, and other vehicles they really don't need, we as a nation would be much less dependent upon foreign oil. It literally takes my breath away when I see an SUV or large truck caked in mud -- there's someone who NEEDS such a large vehicle. I don't even care if it's for a hobby or recreation, at least their gas consumption has SOMETHING more to it than "HURR HURR TEH BIGGAR CAR CUTS EVERYONE OFF!"
Normally, I get tired of people whining about SUVs -- as the vehicles slowly go hybrid I may even get one myself one day (and may -GASP!- go riding through the Southern California desert in it). But after reading your comment, I thought it was time to remind you that NEITHER Democrats NOR Republicans are ultimately responsible for this country's energy woes.
You drive a Prius, Yaris, Camry, Focus, or a Scion, right? RIGHT? Or are you just BITCHING when, in fact, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM? - zSlider, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9@ dagr8tim
Yes I'll agree that it pushes the carbon emitting to the power companies but, won't it be easier for a power company to changes it's plants than for us to change all of our cars?
Therefore when a new greener power source comes out, we don't have to do anything? - Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I've often wondered about this. Why the hell don't they have an NG distribution system in the NE US that consumers can tap into?
I mean c'mon, even out here in Wyoming we have NG delivery to the home! - TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"My reasons are not environmental, but political. I hate that we depend on a resource that is best found in a part of the world that may never have stability."
Technically, we're using up all the foreign oil we can so that we can still have OURS left when theirs run out. - dagr8tim, on 10/12/2007, -11/+13@ bmartin
All electric does is pushes the combustion somewhere else (power plants). Quite afew of them run on oil (so you are still dependant), and still even more run on coal (very dirty). So even a fully electric car will still indirectly run on oil and or something that is even dirtier (coal). - jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Please show us your gas prices. Here are ours: http://66.70.86.46/test.gaschart?Country=US&Crude=t&Period=3&Areas=LosAngeles,,&Unit=US%20$/G
At no point since the day before the election have gas prices been as low as they were prior. EVEN THOUGH THE PRICE OF OIL WAS 7.5% HIGHER ELECTION DAY GAS COSTS 5.6% MORE NOW!!! Oil prices fell 19.7% from 12/19 to 1/18 while gas prices fell only 3.1%. Supply and demand my ass. - matts0344, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I live in the northeast US (Boston actually) and my home is heated with natural gas.
- ProximaC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They have food storage reserves in Alaska.
- ProximaC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Heating oil is high right now because it's winter, and the oil companies jack heating oil prices in winter, and gasoline prices in summer.
Come summer time oil will be tottering around 70 a barrel again, and gasoline will be up to 3 dollars a gallon again, while heating oil will drop significantly. - Altotus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Re: efficiency of gas vs electric...
While it's true that electricity is frequently generated from petrochemicals such as coal or oil, electric vehicles are far more efficient. It's not just because of the added efficiency of converting electrical power to mechanical power, or the optimized torque either.
It turns out that distribution of petrochemicals is extremely inefficient. Distributing to a small number of regional power plants as opposed to a vast network of refueling stations is fantastically more efficient. There's a huge overhead in fuel consumption related just to operating the distribution channel. Further, a lot of fuel is lost in the process through spillage and evaporation. The power conversion efficiency of a car's internal combustion engine is far below that of the electrical turbines, and centralized maintenance, power conversion upgrades, and pollution control is also much more easily, cheaply, and efficiently rendered at the power plant than an end-user's car. Further, electrical production can be converted from petrochemical combustion to other forms of generation dependent on a forecast of available resources -- you can turn just about anything into electricity.
If I remember correctly, something like 1/3rd of our petrochemical consumption is used up in our cars, 1/3rd is used in distribution of fuel, and 1/3rd is all other uses combined.
That's not to say we can all go electric overnight -- the grid would never hold up under the strain.
The power-density of electrical storage isn't practical for aircraft or oceanic vessels, but it is sufficient for cars and with better materials it's getting increasingly practical. - hode, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1...and in their necks:
Exxon Chairman & CEO Lee R. Raymond:
http://www.breadwithcircus.com/raymond.jpg - jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Not much to learn about dams: Big thing block river = bad ... even when it's the stupid little rock dams that people build to make swimming holes (and for the same reasons). The only way to make dams environmentally benign is to construct them off of the main channel of a river and create a diversion to funnel some percentage of the water through the dam while maintaining an obstruction-free channel for fish and wildlife. The water intakes must be near the surface water to avoid thermal disruption as well.
- TonyTheTerrible, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1even major news channels were talking about how it was strange that oil prices went up after the voting was done. what we need is higher prices not lower, it works in those western european countries, and the only other country that uses more than us per person per day is singapore ~.~
- jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Perhaps that's all there is to hear?
- zivarik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1is there a widget that shows the price of oil/barrel?
- hode, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Dedpoet
Turn the gas stations into charging stations, call I tow truck, I don't care... You have a valid point but it is no reason to condemn the entire electric car movement. - Zippo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It's partly about supply and demand, but mostly about fear of production being disrupted. And that's when fear mongering makes the oil companies (and the government through taxes) a tidy profit.
Back before the war in Iraq, gas was about 60-70¢/L (CAD)... and we considered that expensive (it's always cheaper in mainland Canada)... now we're lucky if we get 95¢/L. - ProximaC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Dedpoet
Then I suppose it's pure coincidence that they decided to shut down all those refineries for "maintenance" in the middle of of one of the times of predicted high demand last year? There's a lot more that goes into pricing than just the forecasting models you're talking about.
If you think there's no collusion going on then you've already forgotten Enron. If you think Enron is/was the ONLY company doing that than you're naive. - TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"The US is a horrible country."
Thats about all I hear from the left... - jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I hate all forms of welfare"
Welfare is not meant to make people who are poor happy, it's meant to keep them from shooting you for your money or breaking into your house while you're at work. If people get desperate enough they will do a lot of things you would probably rather they didn't. Public healthcare isn't because I want everyone to feel good, but because I don't want to catch tuberculosis when I go to the movies. Public education isn't so poor people's kids can get an education, it's so the large majority of our citizens will be able to read and therefor engage in commerce, which incidentally is good for the economy.
Things that look like welfare at first aren't really unless you are very nearsighted.
"I support all forms of personal freedom that do not infringe on the rights of others."
This is EXACTLY what lefties are. I think you are confusing "liberals" with actual leftists. It would be the same as confusing George Bush with a Libertarian. The difference between leftists and Libertarians is that leftists believe that at any given moment in time there is a finite amount of wealth and the more one hordes it, the less is available for others to earn. That's all. - jerbaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Dedpoet: You sound like the same people who were saying the same thing about electricity before we had proof of Enron's market manipulations, and you sound like the people who were saying the same thing about natural gas before California proved El Paso was manipulating natural gas prices. Your argument rests on the assumption that oil companies are powerless to affect prices. They are not powerless. Not only can they manipulate supply, but there is no law preventing them from selling oil for less. No one will come give them a ticket for setting a price on oil that is different than what the energy traders pay.
- hode, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It burns!
- TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Well I know the NE US has had a warm start to the winter, but now it's extremely cold. But that was expected. This part of the country has really strange weather. In the summer it will fluctuate between 60 and 100 degrees (f). In the winter it can be anything from 60 to sub-zero temperatures. That's the North East for you."
Why are you telling us this!?! We ALL know that prices of gasoline doesn't stem from supply and demand.....
/sarcasm - carcass350, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I once heard to correlation between oil and gas compared to a rocket and feather. They both move up quickly, but one falls much slower than the other. This typical behavior.
- hode, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@Tinkerbell
Golly you're right! Nobody ever runs out of gas!
If only electricity was more readily available. Like in every building in America... - sirloin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1besides for the fact that you dont transport electricity in trucks.. and as such tends to be better than oil..
and even if it is coal.,. it is much better than funding terrorists and being effected by things in the middle east
But did you forget that some people like me get all of our power else where? I get mine all from the dam, i can drive an electric car all day and not worry about coal or oil. and what about peopel that live near nuke plants?
I get sick of all the "this isnt the answer because" bs./. yeah most of it isnt the final answer but that doesnt mean it cant help.
Ever state service vehicle in my state uses alternative energy.. they have their own service stations and it helps.
How about just us that use nuclear and water and wind, switch to electric cars,,,, you dont thinkt hey will help.. a lot?
and in my state.. the natural gas has risen enough, that you analogy of being more effciet is bunk as it is much cheaper in my state to heat your water with elec fromt he dam.. than from natural gas.. - abcohen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I hope we can get the gas prices down (seems that even the barrels cost less but the price at the pump isnt droppin)
- dchaosdx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1oil prices went down on wednesday, but wednesday night gas prices went up by $0.30/gallon? i call shenanigans.
- DeepDoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@tubatechno
Don't call me a lefty
I am everything that lefties are not.
I hate all forms of welfare because it is stealing from those that earned something and giving to those that did not.
I hate all forms of centralized government because I think that local people should make decisions for themselves.
I support isolationism and prefer that other countries solve their own problems, something the USA used to do.
I support all forms of personal freedom that do not infringe on the rights of others.
Lefties are none of the above. I still believe that the 10th Amendment should mean something. Just because in 1860 the very first GOP president used it [10th Amendment] as toilet paper does not mean it should continue to be ignored.
I do not agree with Bush's policies not because he is Republican, but because he is not really a conservative. Conservatives are for small government and a true conservative would not do half the things he has done. -
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