What is Digg?186 Comments
- dt40, on 10/12/2007, -11/+147I find it interesting that people are so prince sensitive about gas, yet lso much less price sensitive about other things.
If someone's summer vacation is 200 miles away and their car gets 20MPG, then the difference between $4/gallon gas and $2.50/gallon gas is just (200/20) * (4-2.5) == $15.
At the same time, people buy $3 coffees at Starbuck's all the time. And $2 bottles of water?!? And the depreciation and maintainence on one's car are a lot more than the $1.50 differential cost in gas.
So they'd alter their vacation plans to save $15, yet don't mind paying absurd amounts for beverages and don't consider all the real costs of driving??? - SirRudy, on 10/12/2007, -7/+60@dt40
People are price sensitive about gas because our entire infrastructure and economy are dependent upon it.
People buy bottled water because they are *****. - sofaKing812, on 10/12/2007, -3/+47@volinar
It sucks balls, but I think (and very altruisticly hope) gas prices need to get out of control before any massive progress is made towards alternative fuel. - volinar, on 10/12/2007, -14/+51$4????...if it goes up much over $3 a gallon, it will alter any travel plans of mine. This is getting out of control.
- anidal, on 10/12/2007, -5/+41In Saudi Arabia, the price of gas is currently $0.6 / gallon.
- foamweapons, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34After looking into WHY oil prices are so high... I don't think high gas prices will help EVs come to market... although it might piss off enough people to take action and demand electric cars.
This summer oil companies will once again artificially increase gas prices. My estimate is that the real price of gas is below $1.50 and if a technology actually challenged the oil companies, they could lower it below $1.50 overnight (which is still way more expensive than the equivalent in an EV). Ok, it's time for my spiel to back up my claims:
Back in 2001, there was a revealing investigation on oil company price gouging, but Congress did nothing about it. In Senator Wyden's investigation he notes: "Specifically, the documents suggest that major oil companies pursued efforts to curtail refinery capacity as a strategy for improving profit margins; that competing oil companies worked together to subvert supply; that refinery closures inhibited supply; and that oil companies are reaping record profits."[1]
As reported by Public Citizen "Profit margins for oil refiners have been at record highs. In 1999, for every gallon of gasoline refined from crude oil, U.S. oil refiners made a profit of 22.8 cents. By 2004, the profits jumped 80% to 40.8 cents per gallon of gasoline refined." Contrary to popular belief, "environmental regulations are not preventing new refineries from being built in the U.S. From 1975 to 2000, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) received only one permit request for a new refinery. And in March, EPA approved Arizona Clean Fuels’ application for an air permit for a proposed refinery in Arizona. In addition, oil companies are regularly applying for – and receiving – permits to modify and expand their existing refineries." [2]
If you look at these oil companies investor reports, you will see it is price gouging. Take Exxon/Mobil. Last year as a share of capital investment, Exxon Mobil made a 46% rate of return on it's US oil operations, a 59% profit margin on it's US oil refining. They love reporting this information to their investors, because these margins are unheard of in other industries. While a barrel of oil costs $20 to make, they turn around and sell it for $70.[3]
It's also a myth that OPEC sets the prices. The prices are set on energy trading markets. Back in 2000, the oil lobby wrote some legislation called the "Commodities Futures Modernization Act." It deregulated the energy trading exchanges, meaning over half of the trades are unregulated. When the oil companies are the main ones throwing money around, it's easy for them to hike up the price.
I want nothing more than EVs to come to market, but it's important to realize that oil prices are a scam first... we are at an 8-year supply-high for oil because U.S. refineries (owned by oil companies) are storing their crude and not refining it to jack up the prices.[4] EVs can stop the scam, but if oil companies are bold enough to charge twice as much for oil as it's worth, how worried can they be?
Only citizen action, and refusing to buy gasoline cars in the future can force the auto-manufacturers to either make plug-in vehicles or stop selling cars:
http://pluginpartners.com/whatYouCanDo/onlinePetition.cfm
Sources:
[1] http://wyden.senate.gov/leg_issues/reports/wyden_oil_report.pdf
[2] http://69.63.136.213/cmep/energy_enviro_nuclear/electricity/Oil_and_Gas/articles.cfm?ID=11829
[3] http://www.citizen.org/cmep/energy_enviro_nuclear/electricity/Oil_and_Gas/articles.cfm?ID=11829
[4] http://www.citizen.org/documents/Natural%20Gas%20Testimony.pdf - Mountaineer1024, on 10/12/2007, -2/+35Here in Adelaide Australia I'm paying an average of AU$1.30 per litre.
According to google, 1 US gallon = 3.7854118 litres
3.7854118 * 1.30 = 4.92103534
So I'm paying AU$4.92 per gallon
That's $4.05 USD at the current exchange rate.
And there are plenty of places in the world where petrol is even dearer than that. Americans don't seem to understand just how good they have it. - doombo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30$4 a gallon sounds incredibly cheap to me. Here in Europe we are now around 1.3€/litre which
would translate to $6.7 a gallon, if I'm not wrong.
On the other hand, when I read "20mpg car" as something normal, it's really funny....
that's probably what you get with a Porsche or a Ferrari here.. a normal car on a normal trip
(i.e. driving outside cities) would drive around 20Km/Litre which translates to 45Mpg circa.
So what I'm telling is: don't complain and buy more efficient cars!! - EndersGame, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23The people that go to Starbucks and buy bottled water probably won't be the ones to alter their plans. I assume most people are like my parents and shunned all that overpriced crap, I think we only used bottled water back when we attended sporting events and even then we would usually fill a jug up with ice water. Although I don't think even my parents would cancel a planned trip just because gas went up a little, in my area we are already paying $3.50 a gallon.
Oh and I agree 100% with sofaking, I wish gas prices reached 4 and 5 dollars a gallon years ago, maybe then this country would have some of its priorities straight. - Itazura, on 10/12/2007, -7/+22"Maybe, instead of running these completely irrelevant polls, people should find out the REAL reason gas goes up and down.
Oh wait, there isn't one."
There isn't a reason? It just happens at night when everyone is asleep and the oil fairy comes out and changes the signs? - thornbottle, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16Typical that americans are complaining about something that is so cheap compared to other developed contries.
we get taxed 80% in england for petrol. Its currently 90p per liter at its cheapest.
If we convert that to american money it turns out to be nearly $7 a gallon.
I cant believe how selfish americans are to be honest. You refuse to cut emissions, refuse to join any anti-pollution treaty and are the main reason the world is as bad as it is now. Is it any wonder most of the world hates you? - spookyttww, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15*IF* it goes much over $3? I can't find gas for under $3.15/g and thats 86 octane.
- Julolidine, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16I live in Europe as well (despite being an American). The amusing thing is despite how expensive gasoline is - the cost for traveling similar distances is almost the same - this is almost entirely offset by the high mpg cars. 45-70mpg is not uncommon and those aren't even hybrids.
If you have 2x the gas price, but 2x the gas efficiency, it costs you the same to go 100 miles.
::shock:: - Jaymo89, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18$4 a gallon? That's nothing!
Welcome to Australia, $1.50AU per litre. That makes it about $5.50AU for a gallon. Couple that in with the fact that Americans have more disposable income on average and our wages are equivalent figure wise, it makes things very pricey.
Europe is even worse.
The United States has the best petrol (gas) prices outside of the middle east. - Scatropolis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15When I was in Venezuela gas was cheaper than water. You could fill a car tank for under $5.
- SerpentMage, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16When people complain in Europe on how they have expensive gas it is not the same thing. I live in Europe and distances are much closer, which makes a difference in the pocket book. I grew up in Canada and the US and to get anywhere you had to sit yourself in the car for at least 15 minutes.
The distances in America and Canada are that much greater and thus it will hurt when gas prices go up. As one poster said they drive 600 miles (which is not that far) and that costs almost a hundred dollars more. In Europe 600 miles will take you from the North Sea to the Mediterran, and for most Europeans is a HUGE trip. To get the equivalent trip in North America you would drive from Toronto to Florida and that would be 1,200 miles (or double the trip). - wyrdness, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15Consider yourselves lucky. In Britain at the moment, it's current 91 pence per litre. According to my calculations, at the current exchange rate, that is $6.66 (!!) per US gallon.
Us europeans get really annoyed about americans whinging about the price of fuel, when they pay far less for it than we do. - fkr3, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12In Australia and Costa Rica we already pay what amounts to $4/gallon, and have been for a long time. Possibly even slightly more.
- cougar618, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Congratulations. You win the internetz.
- TrevorBradley, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Gas in Canada is already at $4 US/gallon:
1.209($CDN/L) * 3.78 (L/gallon) / 1.147($US/$CDN) = $3.98US/gallon
Yes, yes I know, the Europeans have it much worse, and taxes on gas in Vancouver are hefty. But prices have been gradually increasing after passing the psychological threshold of $1CDN/L here...
$4US/G gas is a reality in your future guys, get used to it. - insomn3ak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@Mountaineer1024:
"And there are plenty of places in the world where petrol is even dearer than that. Americans don't seem to understand just how good they have it."
I think they DO realize how good they have it, and they want to keep it that way. - 1911wolf, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Don't need to alter a thing here. My summer usually consists of my feet, a 3-day pack and a long hike/campout at a local state park. If I'm not doing that, I'm on a bike. No gasoline involved.
- ericdano, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I'm bicycling as much as possible this year. Daylight savings coming earlier meant that I started riding to work earlier. I was spending almost $40 a week on gas. I spent $40 in the last 3 weeks. I plan on giving the oil monopoly as little of my money as possible this summer.
- Nysul, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10dt40
Lets take that a step further. I live in AZ, my parents live in CA. It's about 600 miles and takes ~7 hours to drive there. Using your example "If someone's summer vacation is 600 miles away and their car gets 20MPG, then the difference between $4/gallon gas and $2.50/gallon gas is just (600/20) * (4-2.5) == $45."
So $45 each way, making a total of $90. While $90 may not alter my plans, it's still a decent chunk of change, and could be spent going out to dinner instead. - wilsgrant, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@tuxidomasx
"as soon as i can afford it, i'll probably get a nice big SUV. automobiles are dangerous. the bigger the car, the safer you are (usually)"
Please do some research on vehicle safety. - jonnyboy88, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Expensive" is a relative term.
- DigablePlanet, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Ahhhhh....No *****. I just realized the power of Amtrak for travel. KC to Chicago is $75 bucks and inbetween is cheaper. That's the thing people don't realize. Can I fly? Well flying is X amount of dollars. Driving? Well driving is X amount of dollars to get from point A to point B because gas is so high. Thusly, I will sit on my ass. People disregard a train. Seriously, discover Amtrak and utilize it. Sometime, someday in America we will have to, God forbid, use public transportation for long distances. Go to Europe, a train is the best way to get anywhere because cheap Airlines (RyanAir, Easyjet, etc) drop you off quite a distance from where you actually want to be and it is so easy to get anywhere. Think about it.
- BriSoFli, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7It takes the price of fuel to go up a couple of bucks to get people to drive less. Global warming (the destruction of life as we know it) isn't enough to get anyone to alter their summer plans. We really are just selfish consumers, aren't we?
- Krane, on 10/12/2007, -0/+64$ per gallon? I wish we had that cheap gas. In Finland 95Oct costs 6.5$ per gallon.
- brucerchapman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7umm... oil is never going to $300 a barrel (in todays money).. Just about every other alternative fuel source starts becoming feasible at probably $150 a barrel. Trust me, for $300 a barrel, I'd be brewing and refining my own ethanol from kitchen scraps and lawn clippings. Electric car sales would skyrocket. Think it can't be done? Think again. Brazil has a massive ethanol car fleet.
Alternatives for oil already exist and are feasible, but none can beat the low cost of producing oil. Take away that advantage by making oil over $100 a barrel, and it's no longer the best energy source. It won't get over $100 a barrel in my lifetime. Again, I mean $100 in todays money, not 100 2020 dollars which is going to be worth about 50 2007 dollars. - Artifez, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Your country is also half the size of my state.
- ricerfuel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5In England we have to pay around $6 for a gallon, when i went on holiday to America i couldn't believe it was so cheap. Consider yourselves lucky. Maybe we don't notice it here because the cars are more fuel efficient.
- ulmus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5The american problem is that the whole infrastructure is based on cheap fuel. When I lived in the states doing some research (Grand Rapids, MI) I realized I had to get a car, I could go nowhere without it. There were no downtown grocery stores, gyms, movie theaters, etc, only mcdonalds and burger king. Everything was at the mall or the supermarket.
In Sweden, where I live now, I don't need a car. I commute by train every day, I use the bike in the city or I take the bus. If I had a car, I would use it at the most once a week. - leoedin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@tuxidomasx
Simply not true. While SUV's are bigger, and generally have more solid bodywork, the crumple zones used in SUV's are minimal compared to a lot of european cars. Its also worth noting that the danger of rolling (swerve an SUV at 70MPH and it will flip and roll) presents a great danger to those in an SUV, where a smaller car would simply spin. - jpbleuu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@tuxidomasx
and its thanks to morons like you who waste so much gas that we are spending what we are at the pump now. - jguy584, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Your not getting 35mpg doing 85 in your neon. I guarantee you that.
Doing 85 you might well match your friend at 15mpg - Ins0mn1ac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Last year everyone said that $3 gas would affect their plans.
It hit over $3, everyone paid and whined except for the oil companies who posted record profits (Exxon made $75,000 every minute of 2006).
Last year the oil companies called your bluff. If you really want things to change, stop buying gas.
Walk, ride a bike, take a bus, take a train, car pool. Its not that hard, you just have to accept the fact that you can't choose whats on the radio. - SammyJr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4You also get health insurance, decent public transportation, and college for your gas tax. Americans just get gouged.
- asif5th, on 10/12/2007, -11/+15I hate driving. Gas prices are bad enough, but the moronic drivers make it even worse. If you go 65 on the highway, get your ass in the right lane..not the lanes to the left. For those of you who have public transit, or don't have to commute far, I envy you.
- BriSoFli, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6You make an excellent point using impeccable logic.
- SteelChicken, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4keep in mind euros and others, the USA is very spread out...people don't go on 200 mile vacations. More like 2000. Flying is usually cheaper at that point.
- Leomarth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I was in Texas last week... $2.52 a gallon. Here in Arizona, $2.76 right now. I've started riding my motorcycle much more lately.
I agree with a previous comment that something like this will help spur development of alt fuels though. And, it will also cause people to conserve.
On the other side of things, something I've found out from history, back in the '60's, gas comprised a much higher portion of income than it does nowadays. So, I guess by adjusted dollars, we're cheaper than what we were 45 years ago. - itsme92, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@tuxidomasx
I guess you aren't thinking the way I do, which is the bigger the car, the more ***** the other guy is in the accident. And, you should see what happens when an SUV hits another SUV. I'll give you a hint...it ain't pretty seeing two body-on-frame vehicles with minimal crumple zones hit each other. - overtoke, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4similar ***** with toilet paper. if everyone wiped 15 times per dump the price of TP would put us all in the *****
- Afreyt, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6The thing is, when I was in grade school, I was told that when the price of oil hit $30 a barrel, it became profitable to start cracking our own from oil shale. I can only assume this was an error, because I would think we would be looking towards self sufficiency already. If we are not, it can only be because either its still cheaper to import, or the people that would stand to profit are betting the price comes down too soon to be worth their while to start pumping on local reserves.
- doombo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6(please digg down the other comment: I hit the wrong button: sorry!!)
$4 a gallon sounds incredibly cheap to me. Here in Europe we are now around 1.3€/litre which
would translate to $6.7 a gallon, if I'm not wrong.
On the other hand, when I read 20mpg is a "normal car", it sounds funny: our typical cars drive around 45 mpg outside cities.
Let's do some maths:
US: 4 ($/gallon) / 20 (miles/gallon) = 0.2 $/mile
EU: 6.7 ($/gallon) / 45 (miles/gallom) 0.15$/mile (circa)
Gas is FAR more expensive here, but since we got efficient cars, we spend less
on gas... so stop complaining, and star buying efficient cars (which by the way reduce pollution,
which is something nice) - thomasprebble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I hope it ***** does. Then you can see how bad it is OUTSIDE of the USA. Some are even saying the price we pay helps SUBSIDIZE your comparatively low fuel prices.
- CiXeL, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5its interesting. every so many months my girlfriend and i would have an arguement about finances and then i finally made the connection that it was always occurring when the gas prices went up because it sucks away all your finances and makes it harder to pay debts, bills, etc.
the europeans dont know how good they have it. or maybe they do, i dunno. but i am so tired of them bitching about how cheap our gas is. we're a very very large country by comparison and you need alot of gas to go anywhere. most of us drive a long way to work and dont have available mass transportation either. carpooling isnt even an option for me in people-unfriendly miami.
many of us are working our asses off desperately trying to keep our jobs knowing theres someone in india who could snatch it away at any moment. i havent been on a vacation since 2003 and it looks like i wont have the ability to for the next couple years or until i can retrain and find a new career that actually pays a living wage.
job security is dead in this country, bills are always going up, jobs are drying up and dropping in pay rates. the realestate market is getting ready to fall apart. i cant think that economic collapse is very far away. - idigittoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Summer travel is the problem? if on average I spend now $50 a week x 52 weeks = approx $2500 a year.
a 50% increase will be another $1250 year -
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