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33 Comments
- liqwidmindz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14If you want companies to stop outsourcing jobs, then you should also be prepared to pay higher prices. Outsouring benefts both countries in the long-term. That's Economics 101.
- indijay, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Yes Crackhammer, I am an Indian and I don't always defend Indian call centers as even I get upset with their service sometimes but when I moved to western world 7 years ago, I realized that everywhere its same, so its not worth throwing dirt at some system and if you talk of culture clash, where does the culture come in when you want a tech support or some banking information? At least, they try to get some information, if not on phone right now, later by phone, rather than having to listen "Sorry we can't help you more than this" (My broadband company told me this twice.. and also the guy sitting their didn't know the difference between bits and bytes...) My little brain has a hard time to understand your culture point, my apologies for that.
I have seen this acrimony ALWAYS on Digg when some outsourcing issue comes up. Nobody is taking your jobs.. its a shift of economy.. I believe, a cycle that every corporate would like to survive in. - datastorageguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7God help us all.
I was there to train technical call reps and most, if not all, were very intelligent. When it came to figuring out a problem that was not clearly and immediately solved by a manual however, everything went to hell. - sakuraz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Lady I spoke to solved my friend's problem(I was on the phone)
1.Friend's ISP cannot afford his ADSL plans anymore
2.ISP forcefully upgrades friend's ADSL to ADSL2+
3.Modem not supported, disconnection, lag, etc.
4.Friend attempts to change plan back to ADSL 1 via internet (in few weeks, so not billed yet)
5.I find out about it
6.Call callcentre.
7.Since he didn't pay for DSL2+ yet, the account shows up to be still on DSL1
8.I use my previous information that they tech support stated that it INDEED is the problem from DSL2, so there must be an account update mixup
9.She understands and sends an e-mail, solving the problem.
She understood the error, with persistence(more than 6 times)
I wonder what would have happened if an American tech support(dell) took over.
"No, Sir, your account says you ARE on DSL1"
"But the tech support..."
"No, the computer never lies"
"But....."
"Good day Sir" - dkm201, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Thank you, come again!
- datastorageguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@sakuraz
I don't think its a question of geography it's a question of economy. The reason Indians are paid less is because thats what they are willing to work for. When I was there, I was able to buy a family sized meal for around 10 cents. I tipped my driver for taking me from Mumbai airport (oh god the hellish nightmare that was) to the hotel 400 rupiahs. The conversion rate is something like 420 rupiahs to the dollar. I thought he was going to have a heart attack for being so thankful.
The point is that they can and are being paid less because to them, a $20,000/ year job is like hitting the lottery. - sakuraz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5mancat/// WHY?
if it was replaceable, then it means it wasn't worth it.
Giving false pretense of value is more damaging to the country in the long run.
You shouldn't be paid more just because you live in a different slab of land,
you should be paid more because you can do the jobs BETTER. - sakuraz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Crackhammer, you're speaking in absolutes also.
It's just that they're modified at your wish, not when new ideas come about, so it induces the false pretense of it being a non-absolutes.
I think you won't understand what this means, since you are STILL ranting on. - Hydraulix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Do the needful!
- geriborg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2From "The Digital Death Rattle of the American Middle Class" (2003) at CTHEORY.NET:
http://www.ctheory.net/articles.aspx?id=402
On the WASHTECH website, there's a reposting of a PowerPoint presentation given by Brian Valentine, a senior Microsoft VP. Valentine has a pronounced and unabashed penchant for dressing up his exhortations in banal mixed metaphors. Announcing that he's "Thinking About India ... Touchdown India," he asks microserfs one and all to note that "competitors already have this [outsourcing] religion." Therefore, it's high time for "Microsoft to join the party." Extolling the virtues of "2 heads for the price of 1," he presses middle manager microserfs to "leverage the Indian economy's lower cost structure," and to "pick something to move offshore today," as a tangible sign of their heartfelt personal and institutional fealty. [1]
It's a big moving party, indeed. Over the next decade, several million white-collar jobs, from financial services to hardware and software computer design, will be permanently exported to East Asia and other points in the developing world [2]. Inexpensive global communication networks, combined with a younger, talented and low-cost global workforce will reduce the demand for native U.S. intellectual labor. It's a well-documented phenomenon and perhaps the needed irritant for an incipient social movement here in the U.S. But the sheer plethora of young and talented workers (the Philippines alone produces 380,000 college graduates each year) in East Asia, willing to work for a fifth to a tenth of U.S. wages, may well render U.S. intellectual labor not economically viable, on the global stage, over this emergent present and well into the future. By the end of 2003, more than half of the Fortune 500 have shipped a significant fraction of their intellectual labor jobs offshore. And the exodus is accelerating. [3]
Concurrently, another trend may well be defining the future of U.S. intellectual labor. As U.S. states suffer from revenue shortfalls, and burgeoning college and university enrollments, large tuition increases are often bundled with escalations in class size, reduced course availability, and shrinking financial and infrastructural resources. [4] Combined with the concurrent neo-liberal political redefinition of higher education as a private rather than a public good, "sticker shock" one-year increases (of up to thirty-nine percent at the three public universities in Arizona, forty percent in the California State System, and thirty-two percent in the University of Texas System) [5] may well signify that elites are no longer willing to subsidize American public higher education, once they have gained global access, via digital communication networks, to cheap and competent intellectual labor. This essay explores the links between these two defining moments of early twenty-first Century America, with an eye on the possibility that affordable public higher education, and its attendant importance as a vehicle of social mobility, may soon be thought of as an artifact of the Twentieth Century. If so, we are witnessing the digital death rattle of the American middle class, and an escalating and intensive restratification of the American class system. - chapium, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Any phone-based helpdesk is going to give you problems since they read from scripts. Whether this person is in India or Iowa makes no difference. Call apple's ipod support desk for example. Its american, but that doesn't save it from still sucking.
A little accent is not going to kill you... geez. - datastorageguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You are correct about the conversion rate it is currently about 46rs. = 1 $ Been a while since I was there.
- crackhammer, on 10/12/2007, -9/+10I am going on record as having a 100% unsatisfactory rating for any Indian helpdesk I have ever engaged (voice or chat). Quite frankly I won't see any technical assistance which is not read off a script until I talk to the person with the American accent. It seems to me that the culture clash is immediate and harsh the moment they pick up the call. I cannot get the consultant to really LISTEN to the problem I am experiencing *sigh* thank goodness for tech forums, the REAL helpdesk.
- riverside71, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3The only people loving outsourcing and calling it good for the 'economy' are the CEO's and board of dicrectors..
The average person sees NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER from outsourcing.. we only spend more time on the phone trying to get Ganga Din to understand the difference between a patch and a release.. - indijay, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I have to agree with you BlogCruiser. See its not only one country who is suffering, everyone has some or the other issues with someone. We are living in global market and everyone is trying to be on the top in this race. Big corporate giants take any step that will benefit them. Over the years, almost all major manufacturing is moved to China, even India has started outsourcing to China, when more than 30% well educated Indians are jobless. Then the issue comes, are we going to teach these giants philosophy of society or they should mean their business. The one who suffers at the end is layman. We can't ignore government influence here. if you stay in US then you must have noticed oil prices recently. Loads of issues have got mixed up in the vicious circle.. I doubt you can really try to balance it when western world themselves beats drums of WTO and globalization.
If you want to really know the tip of this iceberg, do read a book by Joseph Siglitz - Globalization and its discontents. - mayurpatil, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1There is no way Indians are taking some one else's jobs away.And if that was the case they should have thought of their fellow citizens instead of the profits they would make outsourcing.
- crackhammer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I imagine that the answer lies in a true reciprocal relationship that adds value to the products we consume and gives needed profits to companies as well as give jobs to places like India. The problem in this case is that the balance is tipped to the companies doing this outsourcing with little or no value add to the product (in this case tech support) and they see no need to correct this.
- indijay, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Even though I disagree with your point (only people who are not willing to listen argue in absolutes) as I did mention that I curse at Indian call centers as well, I must make my point here that I DO have an issue with generalization. I had bad experience with few american helpdesks but I don't go making generalized statement that ALL american customer helpdesks are bad.
Anyways, I don't need to vent anything on you personally as I vent my issues right then and there if I am dissatisfied with any customer service. - orielbean, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Don't blame the banks for the identity theft problems - the laws in place are to blame. They put the onus on the consumer to fix the problem and defend against it, vs the parties who recordkeep and use your information. That is the single quickest way to fix id theft- regulation of the credit agencies and penalities for those who lose - misuse your data. Period. End of story.
- BlogCruiser, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Lots of reality and few good solutions.
There were no major price cuts when companies continue to outsource more and more. As a matter of fact many prices continue to rise in the USA under the guise of inflation, etc. Many companies lowered or maintained the average workers pay because of the tuffer competition. More production and wider job responsibilities and same pay. The profits went to just that more profits. So the reasoning that prices will go up is propaganda to an extent.
The proof is out there companies making record profits. Stock markets going up. US workers staying relatively the same and prices still going up. The dollar worth less to the average citizen. The classes being divided more and more in the US.
The world market was opened and how do you stop it. Companies that try and be fair to US workers can't compete with the competition if they outsourcing. It's a mess and what do we do about it.
US and other companies own throughout the world now and you can't go back to isolationism or protectionism, it will not work any more. So what is the real answer? - Jawood, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Ummm, does anyone else find this scary in sense that there are folks processing BANK transactions in another country where US LAWS DON"T APPLY?!?
In other words, they have your: name, address, date of birth, social security number - everything to steal your identity.
And considering the typical position that banks take when they're in the wrong ( it's not OUR fault. Go suck an egg!) we will be screwed if there's a problem. And if the money is used for terrorism, you can kiss your right to fly good-bye! - crackhammer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2@indijay
Perhaps the reason for a culture clash is right under your nose and you do not even see it... only people who are not willing to listen argue in absolutes. ( I have seen this acrimony ALWAYS on Digg )
anyway I digress. I feel like you are arguing a larger point here, but I can continue to make my point once more without dropping into some courser language. I feel that the service I have received from Indian helpdesks is not... helpful. If you read my posts this is what I am saying, I also go on to say that IF the Indian services come up to par then I would be willing to form a different opinion.
Honestly, I am not the person you need to be venting on, pick at tech support number you like and dial away :-) - NervClaX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0If you want to speak to an American at a "help desk" your best bet is to call the Spanish help line. Most all of them are bi-lingual anyway.
There are several really scary things about this trend.
1. More and more of your personal information is being sent overseas where fraud is a greater risk.
2. The jobs being outsourced are increasingly more technical and specialized. We're importing labor (picking fruit) and exporting services (help desk). These forces will continue to close in on one another until middle-class Americans lose their jobs, their incomes decrease, and our purchasing power is adversely affected. In other words, if enough Americans don't have jobs, they won't have enough money to spend to keep the economy afloat.
3. The vast majority of new job opportunities are coming from one source: healthcare - crackhammer, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6LOL - well I guess you feel strongly about this - anyway, what I posted was my vote and mine alone... if anyone read it and it helps influence the service as a whole to become more serviceable then I have done my job.
to answer - yes, I have contacted non-US helpdesks, this is where I formed my opinion. And secondly my issue is not with an accent - but with the culture clash and lack of actual help which eventually occurs when I do speak to an Indian helpdesk - big difference.
and lastly, I do agree that there are bad versions of the helpdesk in every language and continent, my post was regarding my negative experience with the Indian version, which you cannot make me ignore with any amount of (good natured I am sure) ranting about arses. If the Indian system can shape up and do the job they are contracted to do I will reform my opinion at that time. - orielbean, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0For what it's worth - my company, who does tons of offshoring, won't let Canadians or Indians process certain financial items or customer service jobs that involve advice due to the SEC regulations. Most banks are in compliance with this due to the strict provisions of the Patriot Act vs foreign agencies and banks.
- crackhammer, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Oh, and please don't think I am just picking on Indians (judging from your name I think you may be Indian and therefore sensitive to this) I am open to discuss all the inequities of the American system, however since the title of this digg addresses Indians I felt I should focus on that.
- sanman, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3@mancat:
Just because companies save money by outsourcing, doesn't mean they take those savings and stuff them into a mattress and sit on it. No -- those savings are taken and reinvested into newer activities, which results in new job creation -- newer and more relevant jobs which will stick around more.
No point in cursing automakers because you're a horse-carriage builder. No point in cursing hybrid makers because you're a combustion engine builder. No point in cursing the computer industry because you're a sliderule maker. There will always be newer things to make, even if the old ones leave.
If you could wave a magic wand, and make half the US population disappear, would that suddenly mean a flood of job openings because half the people are no longer coming to work? No, half the population would mean a smaller economy too, with reduced number of available jobs.
Conversely, if you doubled the number of working people, would that mean increased scarcity of jobs, because suddenly there are a whole lot more people? No, because all those working people will also be consuming, thus increasing the available market, and thus increasing the number of jobs required to service their needs.
More people working anywhere in the world means a larger market to serve, and associated job opportunities. If anything, a larger market is safer than a smaller market, because then you're more buffered against local downturns and mishaps. This takes us farther away from the oscillating boom-recession cycle, with its wasteful hiring-stampedes and layoff-stampedes. Instead there is more of a convergence with trendline economics that are more representative of true economic health.
It's like living on a lakeshore or seaside, and experiencing better weather due to the buffering effect from a large body of water. - pkpkpkpk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0@datastorageguy
the conversion rate you specified was bull -- $1 = Rs. 45 approx.
The standard of living is better in US and in India, you can pay for cheap labor to get your stuff done.
Costs in India is going up and as long as there is this huge population, the well will never dry.. - liqwidmindz, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3As someone who has visited many of the call centers in India, I can inform you that many of the help desk people you talk to who have American accents are actually Indians who have taken courses on accent reductions.
But you make a valid point. Indian help desks won't be as good as those in America. - mancat, on 10/12/2007, -16/+12***** this. Large business owners are perfectly content to continue moving jobs out of the country to save a buck. Little do they realize that as the jobs disappear, and the lower class becomes larger and larger, they just might not have anyone left here in America with enough money to put in the bank.
I am so god damn tired of this outsourcing *****. Something needs to be done now before this country becomes little more than a place for the fat cats of the world to hang their hats. This country will collapse if this ***** continues. - indijay, on 10/12/2007, -11/+5@ crackhammer,
Have you ever contacted any other helpdesk which is NOT American, what the heck is with accent? as long as your problem is solved. I had an issue with one well known molecular biology company's chief of marketing for Europe, sitting in NY. I was using their product about USD 700 worth kit for my work and something was screwed up with that kit. He got upset with the mail that I sent over some mailing list where he happened to be the member. He calls me to tell that his arse is clean... I don't care but for God sake, be polite which he failed to understand miserably (and we are talking about chief of marketing here). Listening to my problem was far on his list. Would you like to get such support? Just ranting his arse that they are the best, I got them out of business in my university.
So to wrap it up, its not Indian or English or American customer service, its the company that wants to save bucks and don't give a rat's arse to your problem. Hence, be wise and stop blaming those who do these jobs. - Ashish007, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2seems like it i can ride the bad wagon for i am into BPO training and placement going through a rough patch lately
- zhouli, on 10/12/2007, -8/+0dfasfd
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