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- BinaryDelt, on 11/21/2008, -7/+211A guy in North Carolina called into a radio show the other day saying they should move the factories from Michigan to North Carolina. He said there are plenty of people happy to work for 10 or 11 dollars an hour to do the same work.
I have no problem with outsourcing jobs to other states. - fortress, on 11/21/2008, -7/+155so true....the gov't should let competition decide who rises and falls b/c the poor economic times
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -17/+146More proof that the UAW is strangling the big 3.
$150,000.00 a year to put on a bumper. You have got to be kidding me - NeoHomer, on 11/21/2008, -3/+101That's why I chose to be a acura/honda technician. They actually engineer their stuff to be worked on and repaired, repairing them is cake and a good tech can flag 200 hours a month, easy. Their schooling is the best I've ever had. No wonder they are one of in not the leader in building cars that can be repaired. My 22 year old Acura has over 220,00 miles on it and still hauls butt. My wife's Integra has over 300,000 on it and still gets 30+ MPG. Chev, Ford and Chrylser deserve all they get.
The biggest problem wiht the US car makers is the unions. American car makers take longer and cost more to build a car no one wants.
The best thing that happened to mechanics in Oregon is when we voted out the unions altogether. My pay fully doubled WITHOUT the unions. - wildviper, on 11/21/2008, -6/+76The Big 3 should fail and MUST be allowed to fail. The fear of over 2 million or 3 million(whoever to believe) jobs being lost is nonsense. That is FEAR MONGERING.
Example (my numbers are made up), if the US market for the cars is 100,000, and if the US Big 3 have a 40% Share, that means they sell 40,000 cars. With the economy down, the total sales may go down to 75,000 (a 25% downturn). With 40% of the market, they still would be able to sell 30,000 cars.
If the Big 3 are gone and not making cars....someone has to supply those 30,000 cars. Who will that be? Toyota and Honda and all other car manufacturers can't just ramp up production that high without hiring more people or "buying" out GM/FORD factories and utlizing the existing dealerships to churn out the cars.
What I am basically saying is that these other car companies will have to pick up their production and they will most likely buy out GM/Ford.
But they HAVE to go through Bankcruptsy to get a better deal and get away from the UAW contracts and renegotiate. That is what these other car companies are waiting for.
China is hungry to get in the car business....what better than an existing setup!!!! - scoottie, on 11/21/2008, -12/+72well they dont have the legacy costs of the ***** up UAW contracts that the Big 3 have, because if the UAW tries to hold foreign car makers hostage like they did the Big 3 the foreign companies will just tell the UAW to ***** off and take production out of America. That being said Honda did announce production stops at all of the North American plants for a couple days every so often.
- enotswhat, on 11/21/2008, -1/+56FTA: nonunion Honda plant
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -2/+54I like that idea.
- LastDitchHero, on 11/21/2008, -3/+54Unions, listen, you have done great things in the past for creating the ethical treatment of works. But now you are inflexible, overbearing, and just trying to suck some companies dry. You still promote the division between Management and Labor. Japanese companies embrace their employees, learn from them, teach them, and cooperate. They are also flexible and even trust a sole employee to shut down a production line if they see something wrong. UAW doesn't allow this as they like to say "isn't my job". So yes defects farther than they should. If you wish to exist and protect your tradition then you need to learn to adapt.
- Barackalypse, on 11/21/2008, -6/+43Honda doesn't have the burden of pension and health care obligations negotiated with the UAW many years ago when domestic automaker market share was nearly twice what it is today. Also, it makes better cars.
"In the past two years, GM has put almost $30 billion into its pension funds and a trust to cover its OPEB obligations. Yet these accounts are still a combined $54 billion underwater. GM has put almost $30 billion into its pension funds and a trust to cover its OPEB obligations. Yet these accounts are still a combined $54 billion underwater."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A645 ...
Notice that article is from 2005, I imagine its gotten worse. - inyearstocome, on 11/21/2008, -1/+37"Which do you think will cost us more in the long term?"
Continuing to allow the government to mess with the market is only going to keep hurting us in the long term. We need change, radical change. The kind of change that does not happen unless huge companies fail, people lose their jobs, and things are allowed to be rebuilt with new business models and "the trash gets taken out."
Yes, it would hurt short term, but its clearly something that has needed to happen for a long time. - wildviper, on 11/21/2008, -1/+37You are right..but the UAW has a big factor in this. So does Management and their Car Designers. Everyone is to be blamed.
- DivisibleByZero, on 11/21/2008, -1/+36E Honda is the real success story. Not even M. Bison can stop him.
- yecal, on 11/21/2008, -6/+38Honda and Toyota make cars that actually last....
- NotDennis, on 11/21/2008, -2/+30I hate to see so many guys take the hit for the stupid mistakes that the big heads of their companies made. However, no one ever learns until someone gets hurt. I don't think the bailout will teach The Big 3 anything but that their ass is covered.
I think BinaryDelt has a good idea, there are people willing to work despite a lower wage. - diggydougie, on 11/21/2008, -2/+30They are failing because they are bloated. The foreign competition should have woke them up years ago. It's sink or swim time now.
- witwit, on 11/21/2008, -11/+37let all the other incompetent f*ckers go down. Evolution, b*tches, evolution.
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -3/+28I live near there and know some people who worked there. They treat the employees really well...2 years ago the management bought every worker there a HP laptop for Christmas.
- skyshock1, on 11/21/2008, -1/+25Same thing happened to Studebaker, Dusenberg, etc... back in the 50s.
- LastDitchHero, on 11/21/2008, -0/+23Nope, and a lot of times they use that downtime for maintenance, team building, training, or some good ole fashion busy work.
- kacymartin, on 11/21/2008, -1/+23Just because Honda isn't part of the UAW doesn't mean they aren't providing their employees with excellent benefits. I grew up in Anna, nearly everyone works at the Honda Engine plant. They pay great rates for factory workers and have excellent health care. In addition to that there is a full gym with basketball courts, racquetball courts, pool, and track on campus. There is also a daycare and private gas station on the factory's campus.
- inactive, on 11/21/2008, -7/+29Honda (Japanese Management) = Efficient
Ford, GM, Chrysler (American Management) = Bloated and Inefficient.
Why is this so hard for Americans to understand?
The same people who think we should bail them out are the same ones who believe that Medicaid and Medicare will do a mind blowing 180 degree turn and morph into a Public Health care entity that will work wonders. - digdug135, on 11/21/2008, -1/+23"Which do you think will cost us more in the long term?"
This is what the horse and buggy manufacturers claimed in days of old. Subsidizing failure will cost us more in the long term. Let 'em fail. Provide the workers with relocation assistance. Move on. - FredFredrickson, on 11/21/2008, -19/+40Oh come on now - the union didn't decide that the "big 3" should focus on making huge, uneconomic, gas-guzzling cars that fall apart after 80,000 miles. If they were making cars like Honda or Toyota here, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
- UselessTrivia, on 11/21/2008, -1/+20Most of the article is quotes from customers at a diner in Ohio...I don't think it's fair to accuse the journalist of not knowing their stuff.
These are people expressing their opinions, and most of the country agrees with them.
My thing isn't about what caused the issue, it's about the fallout. If the big 3 go under, it hurts a lot more than just them and their shareholders...it also hurts car dealers around the country, auto repair shops, parts stores, etc...
I'm torn on the whole thing because I think they deserve to die...I'm just not sure that they deserve to take that many people down with them. - SpudgeBoy, on 11/21/2008, -2/+20"If you let the Big 3 collapse then over three million will be unemployed in on swoop."
Boy, you got your talking points down.
The US Auto industry employs 300,000 people not 3,000,000. You only get to the 3 million figure if you count people that work at car washes and Pep Boys, like the auto makers would have you believe and repeat. - MScrip, on 11/21/2008, -1/+19The difference is...
Honda is voluntarily slowing production... GM is begging for a lifeline.
Honda is still in good shape... GM is not. - andydumi, on 11/21/2008, -1/+19Exactly. I would rather work 90% of the time than 0% of the time.
And add to that the fact that it results in cheaper cars to the consumer, that are actually made in the USA and not Mexico, Canada or who knows where else. - roctimo, on 11/21/2008, -1/+18Ditto. Awesome idea.
- dylangaine, on 11/21/2008, -1/+17Nearly $2000 of every US car sold is attributed to legacy costs (pension, healthcare for retired auto workers). As of now, the retired workers outnumber the working workers. New Japanese car companies based in the US do not carry such a heavy pricetag and therefore make a larger profit on every car sold. And in Japan, the government takes care of the health costs. As it stands today, there IS NO WAY the US car companies can compete with the Japanese car companies. The playing field is not level.
- webergolf, on 11/21/2008, -4/+19If I was in the UAW, I wouldn't mind taking a pay cut to keep my job.......too bad the execs don't care because they are set for life already from collecting union dues and don't care
- Temo1, on 11/21/2008, -0/+15If I could ever get any diggs, I would submit this article by itself, but whatever:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122723654355647077 ...
If any of the power diggers want to submit it, go ahead.
"Over decades of contentious relations with the Big Three, the UAW was tagged with a reputation as a combative union whose members enjoyed high wages and gold-plated benefits yet were less productive than nonunion workers. The Big Three paid UAW members about $75 an hour in wages, compared with $45 an hour or less for non-U.S. auto makers. Also, quality problems at GM, Ford and Chrysler and the "jobs bank" program -- under which UAW workers were paid even when they were laid off and didn't have to report to work -- reinforced this poor image.
The union's relationship with the auto makers has changed significantly during the past few years. The Big Three combined have closed dozens of plants and slashed their payrolls. GM now employs 93,000 salaried and hourly workers in the U.S., roughly half as many as in 2002. Under the labor contract signed in 2007, the auto makers can pay new hires $14 an hour instead of the $26 that current workers get. New workers also get 401(k) retirement accounts instead of life-long pensions. Some union work, such as janitorial and parts-delivery work, can be outsourced to service companies paying lower wages. Analysts believe the changes will bring the average cost of union labor to less than $50 an hour by 2010 or 2011, in line with Toyota Motor Corp.'s labor costs. The Harbour Report, a closely watched scorecard of auto-plant productivity, earlier this year found that in 2007 the average per-vehicle labor costs for the Big Three in 2007 was no more than $260 above Toyota's." - greenroom628, on 11/21/2008, -0/+15ideally, "foreign" auto manufacturers would come in and buy out gm, ford, and chrysler. unfortunately, they would need to either re-negotiate the uaw deals or dismantle them altogether.
a bailout for a failed business model (as what the big 3 have), without any preconditions is a mistake. - CedEx, on 11/21/2008, -2/+16But throwing money at the problem won't get us anywhere. They don't even have a plan for the money they want, so why should we give them anything?
- amzran, on 11/21/2008, -1/+15Yeah unlike the Big 3 who also make cars outside the US. GM sales are global and so is there production and the WHOLE company is out of money.
- Hillsfar, on 11/21/2008, -0/+13Yes, but Honda doesn't need a bail-out.
- scoottie, on 11/21/2008, -1/+14the point is that Honda can do that. If any of the Big 3 would try that the UAW would cry foul
- dfwcharlie, on 11/21/2008, -2/+15true but did they lay anyone off...
- roctimo, on 11/21/2008, -0/+13RTFA
- MScrip, on 11/21/2008, -0/+12> "The problem is, is that they will be taking many innocent people with them."
Well... That's what happens when you base your economy around cars that aren't selling very well.
So, we should pump billions of dollars into the GM so they stay afloat for what, one maybe two years? Then what? They burn through that money, and they're still in the same place they are now. What if GM is so badly ***** that nothing can save them? How long should they be supported by the Government?
Big companies can fail. People are more than happy buying Hondas and Hyundais. GM should have changed their plan years ago. They didn't. Now they are expected to turn themselves around in a very short time? The damage is done. - banderwocky, on 11/21/2008, -1/+13Hell yea.
Let the free market decide. - whitfield, on 11/21/2008, -2/+13In other news...
Honda has announced plans to cut production at its plant in Swindon, which will close for 50 days next year. Honda said it plans to make 61,000 fewer vehicles in Japan and Europe as it struggles to cope with slowing global demand.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7741269.stm - roctimo, on 11/21/2008, -1/+12I wish that my family cars had the luck that apparently you do, because my dad's Ford goes into the shop every other ***** week. Meanwhile, my Nissan runs like a champ continually, and I have friends who swear by their 15 year old Acuras.
So, I think you're the exception to rule my friend, and congratulations. - doctechnical, on 11/21/2008, -7/+18I dunno, you can't blame a union for *not* leaving money on the table - of course they negotiated incredibly fat contracts for their workers, they how they earn their dues money. Management should have been far-sighted enough to tie the contracts to company performance.
And in the final analysis, no UAW member designed the Aztec. They just built what they were told to build. - Pronoiac, on 11/22/2008, -0/+11In-n-Out Burger pays $10 an hour.
- sweetwater88, on 11/21/2008, -1/+12Dear Michigan's, I'll do your job for half the price and no union.
P.S. My Illegal friend says he'll do twice the work for half my pay. - FredFredrickson, on 11/21/2008, -2/+12I'm not perpetuating old lies - dealers themselves admit this.
- doctechnical, on 11/21/2008, -1/+11If you were in the UAW you wouldn't have any say over what you got paid, outside of voting for or against a contract someone else negotiated. That's what unions are.
- Ma1achi, on 11/21/2008, -3/+13I say GM deserves to go after killing the electric car
- Taiyoryu, on 11/21/2008, -0/+10why not?
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