What is Digg?230 Comments
- Araya213, on 10/12/2007, -22/+106Good!
- AnteChronos, on 10/12/2007, -11/+35"More limits on freedom of association. Yay!"
Yeah, just like it's illegal to hang out with your friends at the mall. And by "mall" I mean "back alley". And by "friends" I mean "drug dealers". And by "hang out" I mean "buy drugs".
In other words, you're not being very honest by attempting to invoke freedom of association in this case. Freedom of association doesn't even enter into the equation when the association is part of committing a crime. And if someone has entered into the country illegally, then their very existence within US borders constitutes a crime. I say it's about time something was done to remove one of the incentives illegal aliens have for entering the country illegally in the first place. - AnteChronos, on 10/12/2007, -5/+27@signal15
"What happens to them when they can't get legitimate jobs? They aren't going to stop coming"
Why not? When word finally reaches their country of origin that people who are entering the US illegally aren't getting jobs, you don't think that will have a chilling effect?
"if they come and can't gain employment by traditional means, crime rates, drug dealing, and homeless rates are going to skyrocket."
I hate to sound cynical, but perhaps a temporary jump in crime rates would be beneficial. For one thing, it will make illegal immigration a bigger political issue, so there'll be more done about it. The Squeaky Wheel and all that. Plus, if someone who is in the country illegally is arrested, I would assume that that would make deportation more likely.
"The reality of it is, the majority are taking jobs that no Americans want, so it's not like they are taking jobs away from anyone"
I can guarantee you that there are plenty of Americans who would take those jobs if there weren't illegals willing to do the same work for half the wages (probably under-the-table, to boot).
"And, contrary to popular belief, Mexicans are NOT lazy."
Definitely not. But that's beside the point. No one should be here illegally, no matter how hard they work. Let them use legal channels and get higher paying jobs (because they can't be blackmailed by their illegal status) so that they earn what they deserve. - thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -8/+29@Signal
I guess this didn't happen then:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5215724,00.html
Lines formed to apply for jobs after an illegal-alien raid at a meat processing plant. The line of "illegal aliens taking jobs no american wants" is *****. I took any job I could get after graduating college to pay bills and such. And I graduated with a degree in computer engineering. Want to know what my first post-college job was? Unloading trucks at Wal-Mart.
Honestly, I think the US has VAST pool of untapped labor. It's just the entitlement society that we have created keeps them happy with welfare. I mean, why work when you can get more money by sitting at home, ***** to have more kids, and collecting a check, and just doing whatever the ***** you want? - theblooms, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27It isn't merely existing that makes someone an illegal alien. It is the breaking of our laws to come into this nation without going through the proper channels. Again, it is ILLEGAL. It is a Crime. Therefore they are Illegal Aliens. If they want to stop being illegal, go back to their home and apply to come here through legal channels. Then they will be Resident Aliens. Or do you not like the whole "alien" term either? Think the Xenomorphs may get upset at that term?
You can call them "undocumented foreign workers" or whatever other PC euphemism you like, but they are still breaking the law, making them illegal. And people who hire them are ALSO breaking the law. This is a great that this just got passed.
What is so hard to understand about that? - baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25Signal15, i do agree that Mexicans are some of the hardest and most dependable workers i ever seen, i work with lots of em in the construction trade, but they are still here illegally and are undercutting US citizens in the job market, so something must be done about it, either prosecute employers that hire them or "level the playing field" so it costs employers the same amount of money to hire a Mexican as it does to hire a US citizen, (follow the money)
- CiXeL, on 10/12/2007, -9/+29im finding it harder and harder to find a tech job.
im looking into starting a house cleaning service.
thats something a mexican would ordinarily do.
the excuse that they only take jobs that americans wouldnt do is getting very tired. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -11/+29Maybe we should focus first on stopping "illegals" from entering our country. But, this is a good step regardless.
- Brandondork, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23I support this to the fullest, I even lost a job installing spa's to illegals because they worked for $7 an hour and warm beer. I can't wait to turn them in and ship them out
- acidhash, on 10/12/2007, -19/+34Exactly. Sorry, America is closed, immigrants. No more free welfare for you and your 8 children.
- Frankie4Fingers, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16The only reason that they take "jobs americans won't do" is that they will do it "less then Americans are required to get paid" which still goes back to terrible employers who are willing to go under the books and pay less then is required by law, which in turn hurts everyone else.
Babysitting, housekeeping, construction, field work will be done by Americans if there is money in it for them. Don't be stupid. Mexicans only take the jobs because it is easier to threaten them into harder work and it is easier to not pay them as much and maybe not pay taxes on their labor completely. - StripeyMagee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15The Mexicans should overthrow their corrupt government.
- Eggzb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Hey Orbanj, I think the Simple Life is on tv. You are missing it right now. Hurry.
- xike, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8People shouldn't have to go to college and get professional jobs to survive. I see nothing wrong with cleaning toilets and flipping burgers for a living.
- whipnet, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I cut my own... imagine that.
* - kubinator, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I guess kolombiankid is suggesting that we just do away with the middle class altogether... There used to be a time when milkmen could afford there own homes, just 50 years ago!
- Pottersquash, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11@pimpton
OF COURSE!!!! illegal is illegal is illegal, come from china your illegal, from europe illegal. Apply for citizenship, marry and old guy who cant get any, there are ways of getting in this country legally DO IT!! - SillyDigger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7*illegal* immigration. We cannot get the two mixed.
- AnteChronos, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@p0und
"clearly business owners are not going to pay more for labor and not recover this additional cost. the result will be that businesses will have to raise the prices of their goods or services to offset this cost. this leaves you and me footing the bill for the increased wages."
So? What's your point? You think that we somehow *deserve* low prices on goods and services that currently have low costs because they're produced illegally? Well golly gee! Let's just reinstate child labor while we're at it! Put some kids in coal mines and pay them next-to-nothing, and then your electricity bill will be really cheap! Hell, we could try to get slavery unabolished while we're at it. I'm sure that would reduce the cost of goods across the board. Awesome!
Or maybe you should realize that prices for some things are currently artificially deflated, and we *should* be paying more for them. - sicc, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12Sounds like a plan to me!
I think, for the most part, illegal immigration is like the last issue both red and blue can agree on.
The only ones who are standing in our way are the ones who actually make the laws. - AnteChronos, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12"Maybe we should focus first on stopping "illegals" from entering our country."
I consider this a step in that direction. Fully policing the border can be quite difficult, time consuming, and expensive. However, most people who enter the US illegally do so for monetary gain. Making it harder for illegals to find work removes the incentive that they have to enter the country illegally in the first place.
Or, in terms of Agent Smith's "Humans are a Virus" hypothesis, this is like administering a vaccine, whereas border control is like forcing the patient to live in a bubble. Personally, I'd rather be vaccinated than referred to as "Bubble Boy".
Now lets see if I get dugg down for using a metaphor that stupid people can misinterpret as me actually calling illegal aliens a virus. - MikeOSX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8wtf?
- kettlechips, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Numbers USA: propaganda disguised as a phony infomercial.
- AnteChronos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@simpleid
"they do a lot of work no one else wants to"
Not true. There are lots of people who would be willing to do the work. You should rephrase that to say, "They do a lot of work that no one else would be willing to do for such low wages, because they're being blackmailed by their employer with the threat of revealing their illegal status."
"don't go out of your way to stop it. :) hear no evil, see no evil, evil gets done."
At the risk of invoking the Godwin effect, I just have to say it: That sounds like the logic that allowed the Nazis to commit the atrocities that they did. "Just look the other way. It doesn't concern *us*, so why should we put ourselves in harm's way?" ***** that. Seriously, ***** it.
"unless -you- want to clean out septic tanks for a living?"
If that were the only job available to me, then hell yes I'd clean septic tanks! At least then I'd be doing honest work.
"think about it."
I have . You sound like a Bourgeoisie prick who would rather look the other way when it comes to actual justice as long as it prevents you from having to do the "dirty work" yourself. Who cares if illegal aliens take jobs from *legal* aliens, and get shafted on all their paychecks in the process, as long as you can get your septic tanks cleaned on the cheap, right? *****. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Who said anything about Christianity? I'm talking about the guy who cuts my lawn.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5WTF are you talking about? Everyone has been complaining about China and India. Remember "outsourcing"?
STOP CALLING PEOPLE RACIST. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13signal...yes, they will sop coming. At least some. And many of hte others will do so LEGALLY!
What part of ILLEGAL alien do you not understand? (And if you TRY to give me any "undocumented immigrant" *****, I will call a hitman to murder you.)
Workers can still hire Mexicans to do the crap work if they want. They just gotta make sure those Mexicans are here legally. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Illegals are human beings, just like you or me, who were born outside of an arbitrary line on a map which denotes the USA's border. Because the USA contains many corporations, these "illegals" come here in order to work "off-the-books" jobs. The result of this is that a) corporations reduce payroll costs and b) the "illegal" can earn more money here than they can in their own homeland.
Sadly, both corporation and "illegal" are cheating "real Americans". Legally, we Americans must a) pay taxes on income and b) be paid a minimum wage. This purpose of this minimum wage is to ensure that ALL WORKING AMERICANS can afford a QUALITY LIFE. The theory is, so long as people can work and be rewarded with a sucessful life, they will have no incentive to commit crimes against society (steal, cheat, etc), and things will remain more pleasant for everyone. The taxes collected from the wages of "real Americans" provide many social services, such as firemen, hospitals, schools- all of which contribute to our QUALITY of LIFE.
Illegals do not pay taxes, and so, do not contribute a "fair share", even though they still use roads, schools and hospitals just like anyone else. Imagine a group of 8 people buying a pizza, everyone eating 1 slice, and only 3 people paying- it is simply unfair. Furthermore, because of the scale involved (+15 million) the laws of supply and demand are at play. Right now, the USA has a large supply of low-wage workers (illegals); they compete for low-paying jobs which allows corporations to pay less. There is also a domino effect here: previous employees at this "bottom rung" are forced to compete for less opportnites further up the chain; thus DEFLATING wages for ALL WORKERS, not just the illegals. By removing "illegals" from the process of American capitalism the DEMAND for low-wage jobs with out-strip the SUPPLY of low-wage, LEGAL labor, and the trend will reverse. Corporations will compete with each other to attract labor, and in doing so, offer higher wages to attract them.
In the long-run, this is an excellent law. I wish no harm to "illegals", I myself am an immigrant (3rd generation American). I am also heartbroken at the conditions that force these "illegals" to risk life and limb to come here. However, I ALSO care about the chronic level of poverty already here in America. I believe America must take care of itself FIRST, and be a good WORLD CITIZEN second. By reversing the trend of low-wages, LEGAL Americans stuck in poverty will have a chance to advance themselves (thanks to the process of Capitalism, not socialist fantasy), and get a larger slice of the American Pie- thanks to the merits of their own hard work.
The "Jobs Americans won't do" is bunk. That FULL statement should read: "Jobs Americans won't do for an appalling low wage which forces them to remain in a cycle of poverty". - thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@lamshadowkiller
Lets try some substitution:
And if someone murders your family... one could argue it's ILLEGAL... but this isn't such a simple problem with a 100% fool-proof solution.
So, because we can't find a 100% solution, we shouldn't try?
My ancestors came here legally(my family still has the documentation), just because we've turned a blind eye for too long doesn't mean we shouldn't do something to make it right. - returnofmalv, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6What Americans fail to realize is that legally immigrating from Mexico is a very long and difficult process. If so many Mexicans are willing to endanger their lives to enter this country illegallly, then there must be something wrong with the legal immigration process.
- HappyMax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Where I live garbage men are almost all white. African Americans are actually filling lawsuits to be able to get those positions because they think there's discrimination going on. Why are these jobs in demand? Because they are union jobs that pay well and have very good benefits.
I guarantee you if these jobs weren't protected by the unions almost all of the garbage men would be illegals making $6/hr and we'd be hearing that this is one of the jobs "American won't do". - thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yeah, nothing like a few million people to not be dangerous....
This isn't about race.
Are you saying that it's ok for people to break laws as long as they are "the least of the dangerous"? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5MikeOSX:
Seconded. wtf? - traviswalters, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm commenting because I actually live in the county this article is about. My only thoughts are that now the people that live in my county legally will be the only ones allowed to do these jobs, but they won't. Welfares big here and not because one can't find a job. It's because of the sense of entitlement. Plus, I know our local government and this won't be enforced at all, it was basically an election thing and is a waste of time.
- thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Hrrm... they came to the country against our laws....
That seems pretty illegal to me. - JimXugle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Illegal Immigrant != Immigrant
Learn you some terminology, re-evaluate the situation, and then come back to Digg. - Dabellah, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6whats funny is the first comment is EXACTLY what i was thinking and said out loud when i saw this header in my RSS feed...
good indeed. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The genocide comitted against Native Americans is unparalleled in human history; it dwarfs the Hollocaust in terms of scale and duration. Many of the lands which now comprise the American Southwest were, at one time, owned and occupied by Mexico. Ironically, some Mexicans are now "illegal" citizens of a land inhabited by their own anscestors. Like I said in my above post, it is a heartbreaking scenerio.
History is filled with injuctice. There is no "fair" solution to the reality of the third-world. Nonetheless, by random chance I was born American, and so, America remains my priority.
There is a great book titled "Ishmael" which presents a somewhat perverted theory: by feeding the starving people of Africa, we are encouraging them to live long enough to reproduce, and thus create a new generation of poverty. There are no easy answers here, and I cannot help but think that, despite our best intentions, there are some problems America can not, and should not attempt to, fix. I have faith in my fellow man, be them American, Mexican or African that they will survive and improve their own situations. It is the only rational consequence of motive. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Whenever anyone is against ILLEGAL immigration and wants to enforce laws, these Open Border advocates shout 'racist'. Not a very compelling argument.
- Brandondork, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Son that was years ago, I'm working for Qualcomm now. When your going to school like I was at the time, summer jobs like that help pay the bills; help paying taxes. I couldn't care less about installing spa's, it's the principle.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6As a relatively recent migrant (Natural US Citizen) to Hilton Head from Annapolis, MD the passage of this law is welcome news. Over the last 2+ years there has been a huge jump in crime, and a general reduction in the quality of life in Southern Beaufort County. Now sure it is not all due to the exploding population of illegals, but their presence has not improved anything either. Also, the issue of local businesses dying because of competition from illegals first hired and trained as a "bargain," later start low-bid competing businesses that bite the hands that fed them, is very serious. There was a story recently about an African-American owned stucco company that collapsed from nearly a $-million annual sales to near bankruptcy due to former (illegal) Hispanic employees going out and low-balling every job in a bidding war. Of course they could pull off this SprawlMarting by simply hiring other illegals and paying them cash. Too bad our "elected" Federal government officials are so busy scarfing pork at the trough that our National immigration policy and actions have become a worldwide joke. I just can't imagine why there have not been more really bad incidents of terrorist activity -- perhaps time will tell. Good for Beaufort County - now I can only hope they actually enforce the regs with their all to meager staff resources.
- HappyMax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Since NAFTA our trade deficit with Mexico has increased dramatically. They are selling much more to us than we are getting from them. We've also lost hundreds of thousands of jobs to Mexico because of NAFTA. But we're the ones getting the better of the deal?
Wages are not the reason corporations are bypassing Mexico in favor of China. The roads are terrible, utilities are unreliable, and there is way too much regulation.
They didn't have to go into debt. Mexico had the money to make the improvements, from the increased trade to the U.S. but instead of spending it on making the country more prepared for international trade the money went into the pockets of the corrupt Mexican elite.
Mexico wasn't going to pull itself up with farming. China knew that, they were full of farmers. That's why they made the necessary market reforms and capital improvements to attract foreign investment. - elclandestino, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3How can you get rid of jobs for illegal immigrants when your government has fostered the conditions in their home country which has driven them to come here? This big wave of immigration started within the last twelve years, which is also curiously how long NAFTA has been around. The two things are very much interrelated.
Also, regarding the $7.0bn fence, here's a quick fact most people in the immigration debate may not even know:
The majority of people who immigrate illegally to the U.S. don't come by land, they come by airplane and don't catch their flight back! How is a 7-billion-dollar fence supposed to curb that exactly?! - aiken, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It's funny that so many people who acknowledge the inevitability of black markets when it comes to piracy, drugs, and prostitution think that there's some magical way to evaporate the black market for labor.
Hello? Economics is all about incentive. There will always be someone willing to take the risk of importing contraband, filming a movie in a theater, ***** for pay, hiring illegals, or immigrating illegally. That's because (often necessary!) laws regulating those activities create a profit motive for people who break the law. People follow profit motives.
The only real way to reduce illegal immigration is to reverse the profit motive: make it more worthwhile for mexicans (in particular, since they're the focus of this debate) to stay home. That means taking much greater steps to encourage/force the Mexican government to address its pervasive corruption issues, which will allow it to improve the country's infrastructure and education systems. There aren't a whole lot of illegal Canadian immigrants, are there?
I'm not opposed to legislation like this that puts some teeth in already-existing laws. But all these folks ranting and raving pretty much want to treat the symptoms, not the cause. Until we acknowledge the inevitability of a labor black market when economic conditions change radically across a 10 foot strip of land, all of our "solutions" are going to be window dressing (and largely emotional, angry window dressing at that).
-b - returnofmalv, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3And Americans should stop supporting the corrupt government in Mexico. *****.
- elclandestino, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Umm, regarding your comment about the trade deficit with Mexico:
When Nike Mexico ships 1 million shoes to Nike USA across the border, sure that looks good on paper. But are Mexicans really prospering at fifty cents and hour jobs? are they the ones raking in the benefits of the trade deficit?
No! Of course not! American companies are. American companies are making money off of cheaper labor, which in turn means that we will import more from Mexico because the jobs that used to make our products at home are instead making our products in Mexico. This in no way means that Mexico in any substantial way gains from the alleged "benefits" of Mexico.
But you're right, the people at the top, the government officials and moneymen, are getting rich at the hands of their corporate benefactors, who are also enriching "our" politicians and moneymen. Meanwhile, both Mexicans AND Americans get the proverbial shaft.
The only real difference is that we American consumers keep buying the nike shoes made across the border (or more likely in China) and bemoaning the loss of jobs at the same time. Its like watching a dog chase its tail... - thcobbs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@SillyDigger
Excellent point.
America is the land of LEGAL Immigrants. I have no problem with someone wanting to come her, go through all the process(like my ancestors did) and becoming a citizen. Actually, I'm kinda proud that they can deal with the headache. *note to self: Start attending more citizenship ceremonies*
The problem I have is people circumventing laws to make money. People get all up in arms about Enrons and things like that... But if its a person who's had a hard life, it's ok to circumvent our laws. - noodlepappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Here's a Libertarian who thinks the immigration debate is idiotic. He's also the creator of some fine comic books.
http://www.ilw.com/articles/2006,1103-bagge.shtm - HappyMax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The hell they don't. But this is an illegal immigration thread. I've got a problem with getting my street paved but this isn't the place to complain about it.
Submit a story about off-shoring or sending manufacturing overseas and you'll see plenty of people complaining. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3So your solution is to let them all in?
Empathy for the people is one thing but this is absurd. Its the equivalent of inviting your poor neighbor into your house when their house has no water or electricity. So your neighbor uses your water and electricity, cleans your house etc. It may be generous but it does not solve the problem that their house is still broken. -
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