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149 Comments
- nahsrocketeer75, on 06/15/2009, -0/+45There's only one problem with the "working longer" part of Plan B: Keeping a job.
- Ellipsys, on 06/16/2009, -9/+49Congratulations. While our European (especially Scandinavian) friends are taking vacations and planning for a healthy retirement, and I say healthy because they'll have a single-payer universal health care plan to look after them, Americans are going to work longer, harder, for less actual buying power, and now you get to work until you're dead. Good job attaching a "OMGCOMMUNISM" stigma to everything that could prevent this, and allowing our corporations to rape not only our pensions, but to have sold the past, present, and future American workforce down the drain to ensure that a handful of executives will be able to afford a new yacht every year.
You know the wonderful thing? Its all to the sound of applause. The richest in the country have convinced the working poor, to hate the dirt poor, and call anyone "entitled" who expects the people in power to keep to basic human standards of decency. They're laughing all the way to the bank as the people who need these services most decry them as relying on "the system". They laugh as you'll work yourself to death mid-sentence during a "Do you want fries with that?" because they got you to believe that "America is built on hard work, not handouts" . Its ***** hilarious to hear "I don't want to pay for fat people and singles mothers" while they can barely afford the medications to keep themselves alive and the fact that a majority of bankruptcy is actually caused by medical expenses, while they protect the right of the drug company to patent lifesaving drugs for extended periods of time and charge whatever they want for them. But not, see, public-funded labs and research is COMMUNIST. (yes, I know there is a minority of public funding but when was the last time you heard "Direct from the NIH comes a brand new antibiotic that's 50% more effective against X than previous! Best of all its $42 a bag, compared to Pfizer's $2000 offering, and public domain for anyone to make as a generic!" ) We give taxpayer money to private companies to "stimulate the economy", but the taxpayer rarely benefits.
I don't want the country you've created. but I bet I'll get at least one "patriot" telling me to "move to yurop yew socialist" rather than try to fix things here. - BrandonJM, on 06/15/2009, -0/+28Actually, there is another: There are thousands of folks who cannot get jobs because folks are not retiring.
- inactive, on 06/16/2009, -0/+27George Carlin on the American Dream:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
...Its called the American Dream, because
you have to be asleep to believe it. - Hillsfar, on 06/16/2009, -6/+24"In fact, the only true security for a retiree today is their own savings and investments, Dinkin said. Neither the government nor corporate pensions can be relied upon as the foundation of a stable retirement, he adds."
What's scary is that more and more people, having not saved enough for their retirement (some people don't even save at all) now want more defined-benefit pensions to be put into place. The very same kind of burden-shifting onto others that Social Security and Medicare currently does and is therefore putting America into a $65 trillion obligation hole. The same kind of problem that state and local government and corporate and union pensions are facing. People basically want a bail-out paid for by someone else because. If such things occur, we will be further swamped in debt as a nation.
Rather than dwell on the steep drop of the Dow from 14,000 to 6,500 back in March... if you think about it, at 8,600 today, the Dow is back to its May 2003 level. So yes, people lost some money for 6 years. But 6 years out of a working and investing life of 45 years? The real answer is that Americans are not saving enough.
People should be saving 15% of gross income a year for retirement. And another 15% for things like a 6-to-12-month emergency fund, car repairs, cash down for a future car, appliance repair, appliances, home repair, kids' braces, dental work, and medical bills. If they have a mortgage, it should not be more than 28% of their gross income. So many people stretched to reach their dream home and thought home prices that rose more than 50% to 200% over the past 10 years would keep rising (yeah right), they're now finding themselves underwater in their mortgages while those who kept renting are now able to finally see some bargains.
Too often, people's financial budgeting processes remain a holder from their high school and teenaged days, when they didn't think about all the bills that their parents had to pay and just floated by from day to day. They still don't use coupons when shopping, they buy lattes at Starbucks, they get big screen TVs and premium cable, they drink soda instead of lemonade or ice water. A lot of people are turning to frugality these days and that is good. But during the housing boom, many went on a spending splurge rather than save for a rainy day.
Now they want a retirement bail-out from the rest of American who sacrificed and saved.
As someone who doesn't even have a TV antennae (let alone a converter box for digital public broadcast, let alone basic cable), as someone who still drives a 9 year old pick-up truck fully paid for 7 years ago, as someone who clips grocery coupons every weekend, as someone who continued renting rather than go into a home-buy frenzy because I could see it was a bubble, as someone who doesn't visit Starbucks except to get a latte for his wife once every few months, as someone who is on the 3rd-year of his current cell phone and before that used his Nokia 3360 for SIX YEARS, as someone who doesn't have an iPod or a laptop - all in order to save money for the REALLY important things in life like family, children, a home, and eventual retirement - I say a big ***** YOU to them! - asgardshill, on 06/16/2009, -0/+17Problem 1: More people are staying at their jobs longer and not retiring.
Problem 2: There are no openings for new people because the old people aren't retiring.
Problem 3: Employers are laying off older more well-paid staff and replacing them with cheap, desperate labor right out of school who'll work for peanuts or even intern for free just because they hope they'll get a paid gig later. They keep a few of the luckier old hands around to train the newbies for a few months, then broom them too.
Problem 4: Employers aren't hiring new people because the new people are too old (i.e. used to being paid more), taking them onto the company's health insurance would be too costly, etc.
Combine these problems and it all adds up to a big ***** sandwich if you're of a certain age. And we're all going to have to take a bite. - zacharytelschow, on 06/15/2009, -3/+18Your stocks halving in value means you're expecting "the system" to look out for you?
- asgardshill, on 06/16/2009, -4/+17Applause. Bravo/brava/bravi. Truth in every word.
- slicksoul999, on 06/15/2009, -1/+12I was hoping to retire around 35, looks like I'll have to plan for 85, if I can keep a job.
- TimtheTaxMan, on 06/16/2009, -1/+12The answer is to live beneath your means and pocket the difference. My wife and I share one car, (It's not as hard as you think), live in a modest 1200 sq foot home, and only buy what we need. What is the result? I don't need to government or anyone else to support me now, or ever.
The reason no one has money is because they waste it on useless crap that piles up in their garage. Sorry but that snowmobile is not going to support you though retirement. - publiclurker, on 06/16/2009, -3/+14Aparently none of the Europeans understand economics either. Try another lie.
- Lucas123, on 06/15/2009, -3/+13We're investing in Depends for the office.
- bentaisan, on 06/16/2009, -1/+10Have lots of kids, save as a family and pay off a large family house where you can all live, supporting the old folks until they die.
Of course, the old folks can stay in and watch the kids, providing day care, instead of the government.
That is pretty much how it was done in the old days.
Not every husband and wife needs their own suburban McHouse or McMansion.
We should depend on our clans for social support, but the government and marketing machines have done everything possible to destroy the concept of the extended family in order to make us more reliant on their "goods". - gknacks, on 06/16/2009, -1/+10Yeah but here's the thing. I can't afford to save and still don't buy ***** because my job doesn't pay enough for housing (that isn't in an area I would consider unsafe) and food and education. Yay for living paycheck to paycheck. I can't make more until I further my education and I can't do that until I make more. I could get a better job, except that there aren't any available. Once I complete my education I will make more I can start saving for retirement. This is where a lot of americans are. Perhaps you don't know any normal people?
- quarando, on 06/16/2009, -2/+11No, people today work substantially longer work weeks and they work later into life just to make wages similar to workers 35 years ago. And they do so with less vacation and fewer benefits. People today aren't lazy, they would prefer to "do it themselves", but 'the system' increasingly squeezes the middle class to give to the wealthy. Many people have little choice but to rely on social programs for retirement and healthcare.
- sodade, on 06/16/2009, -1/+8"However, working beyond age 65 doesn't have to be dismal, experts say, especially if you change your expectations and push yourself to pursue work in a field that you love. "
This is the ***** problem with america - everyone wants a job they love. Face it - most jobs are not cool. Not cool at all. Work, for most, is a means to an end. I dread the day my little girl says "daddy I want to be an actress (or whatever totally cool sounding career that a very select few will actually be able to pull off"
"yes dear, you'd make a fine actress, but please figure out a way to actually make a living first eh?" - hdrkid, on 06/16/2009, -1/+8The problem is that you pay for SS, and when you are too old to work, it is gone.
- rchargel, on 06/16/2009, -0/+7I'm pretty sure my parent's generation will be the last to retire. I put money aside every month, but it's not for me, it's for my children. I know the likelihood of my own retirement is negligible. The way I see it, I can either squirrel every last dollar away so I can enjoy that last 5 years of my life, or I can enjoy my life and continue to work until I die. Thank god I love my job.
- covertbadger, on 06/16/2009, -1/+8@drunkenvthokie
"Most European's do not plan to retire and if they do, they don't have the same view of retirement as many of us do. European's don't typically save that much because they understand that they will work until VERY old ages. Additionally, they aren't packing up and moving to Florida they are staying in the houses they've lived their whole lives, which are already paid off."
Speaking as a European, what the ***** are you talking about? I, and everyone I know, intends to retire. In my case, I expect to be able to do that before I turn 50. And moving off to a holiday home in the sun (typically Spain) is so common as to be a cliche. - inactive, on 06/16/2009, -0/+6There is that, and there are other people who did have money saved and the pension fund managers somehow managed to invest it in criminal banks.
- kernyboy, on 06/16/2009, -0/+6you know...this is a good point. As a culture we've been taught to "leave the nest". There is no reason a 21 year old fresh out of school, burried in student debt should live on his or her own. Re really SHOULD rely on our individual family structures to have a support system. This is done in europe, asia, and many other parts of the world. Its sorta stigmatized here. go figure
- ethanji22, on 06/16/2009, -1/+7Don't bank on an education to get you to your final destination. There are plenty of people with advanced degrees who are also out of work right now. This thing is hitting everyone. Just be careful not to take on too much debt in the process. You should do a cost benefit analysis of whatever advanced education you pick. Not all advanced degrees are alike.
- ymerej, on 06/16/2009, -0/+6> People should be saving 15% of gross income a year for retirement.
> And another 15% for things like a 6-to-12-month emergency fund, car repairs, cash down for a future car, appliance repair, appliances, home repair, kids' braces, dental work, and medical bills.
> If they have a mortgage, it should not be more than 28% of their gross income.
Here's the problem: this leaves exactly 42% of their gross income towards living expenses. And you still didn't pay the taxman.
I agree, you need to save x% a year for retirement, and another x% for a 6-12 month emergency fund. But that x should vary from person to person depending at that person's comfort level. Yes, our ancestors used to save much more than we did, but there was a time when there was no such thing as income tax, either. - theutopian, on 06/16/2009, -1/+7I spent some time in Amish country last weekend and I really admire their outlook on family. Everyone in an Amish family has a role, from the youngest child to the oldest grandparent. Generations live in the same farm, with the grandparents given their own small house. They may not be able to work like they used to, but they have an entirely different view of old age. The elderly are respected, still work and are taken care of by the family.
The Amish don't collect social security or buy health insurance. They take care of each other.
It's really admirable. We could learn a lot from them. - skews13, on 06/16/2009, -2/+8And in the interim, the last administration who's failed economic policies that caused all of this in the first place, and all of his corporate cronies will live a comfortable retirement while the dumbasses that elected them, will be at their jobs in their 70's, blaming someone else because they were to ***** stupid in the first place to vote for the the very positions in which they find themselves.
- pathouston22, on 06/16/2009, -2/+7I like how everybody blames the stock market.
Lets see, it dropped from 14,000 and is now at 8,500. 40% loss.
If you invested 40 years ago - at age 20 - and now your 60 ready to retire - the market was at 750. Its impossible to calculate the gain with all the stock splits - but at BARE MINIMUM - the stock market has gone up 1100%.
And most likely, the recent 55% loss will be recovered within a year or two. We've already recovered 15%. - rchargel, on 06/16/2009, -3/+8Don't worry, I ignored the whole thing.
Sorry, it was just too easy. - inactive, on 06/16/2009, -1/+6Never slow down, never grow old.
- camaroz06, on 06/16/2009, -0/+5Move your money to safe investments as you age (inflation protected bonds anyone?), you don't leave 50%+ of your retirement plan investments in stock when you are a year from retirement. I work in HR and I have seen some people lose massive amounts of money because they just refused to move their money around in our retirement plans to safer investments as they were aging.
- CSimonds, on 06/16/2009, -0/+5We're in the streets allright -- just in the car on the way to Wal-Mart and McDonalds! /s ;)
- irvman21, on 06/16/2009, -1/+6I would be a hell of a lot closer to retiring if instead of being forced to put 12.4% of my salary into social security, I would be allowed to invest it on my own.
- MiDri, on 06/16/2009, -0/+5But what about my short term gains!?
- DangerCollie, on 06/16/2009, -0/+5What is retirement? I mean seriously, is our idea of retirement playing golf all day? I had the better part of a year off between jobs but never stopped working. I'd work consulting gigs, help out on development projects, built things to grow my own food, fenced, landscaped...I was doing more not working a day job than I do employed. We went to visit my parents and even worked a couple odd jobs there. I just like to build things, fix things, do things, and meet people. I'm always in school for something. Real estate school, EMT, welding, HVAC, plumbing, laying tile, pouring concrete...it never ends. And that's what I do when I'm not working a day job. So what is this retirement thing you speak of? And just what makes it attractive?
- EarlOfLade, on 06/16/2009, -1/+6I will retire in 8 years when I turn 60 and luckily, my pension is not dependent upon Wall street or the financial market in any way. I will receive 80% of my average income over the 5 years prior to my retirement. Of course, our pension system was designed by someone who took one look at the stock market and said: "Heck no! Our pension and retirement can not depend on the stock market!" and that was 70 years ago.
- behavedave, on 06/16/2009, -1/+6I know enough about being European (as I am one) and will recieve a basic state pension at the age of 65 which will be topped up by my private pension. The state pension isn't crippling the country and nor is state health, I would have thought that you would have been able to see beyond the anti-socialist crap that your corporate controlled governement sells you but I guess not.
Anyhow time to ride home from state work on my state provided bicycle to my state provided house. Well actually I have a car but chose to ride as the sun was shining when I woke up and the house is my own and the place where I work is now privatised but still slippery slope an all that. - behavedave, on 06/16/2009, -0/+5I take it in the States the government do not award you a basic pension upon a certain age like other countries do?
- bigp3rm, on 06/16/2009, -0/+5We need to be in the streets like the people in Iran.
- pinchduck, on 06/16/2009, -0/+5If you are young enough to do so, get out of debt and stay out of debt. Pile up your cash. Invest some, but not all, in case of another meltdown. In other words, don't owe the bank your whole life and diversify your risk. No debt means no credit cards, no car loan, limited mortgage, no student loans. Pay as you go for everything. Graduating from college, then buying a new car, then buying a house, while trying to pay off your student loan, is a guaranteed trip to no-retirement land.
- inactive, on 06/16/2009, -0/+4I've made this observation before, there's a reason why this was the norm back in the day. And still is in many other countries. Imperial, you're a *****.
- vertinox, on 06/16/2009, -0/+4There is social security.
Heh. Heh. Heheahahaaha. - Ellipsys, on 06/16/2009, -1/+5I'm not speaking just in terms of this article. Way before the major market crash that caused some people to wake up, things have been going downhill. 30% better than *****, is only slightly less *****. The problem is ingrained in the way we as Americans view economic issues. The recent events are just a culmination and illustration of this.
I don't have anything against properly regulated capitalism, but that's not what we have here. We have a runaway corporatist structure where the rules don't apply to big business. People seek profit and growth at any cost and it needs to stop. You can make a better chair than Bill's Chairs to profit, you can try and sell your chair cheaper, but you can't save money by shipping all of our jobs overseas to people who are willing to live in huts, by dumping chemical waste into the river instead of processing it, or by paying illegal immigrants a fraction of what a worker who wasn't afraid of the INS would ask for.
Capitalism is fine, but there need to be controls. We cannot institutionalize that profit comes before citizens, the environment, and health.
And I think the threat of having to work in a fast food restaurant at 85 years old because you didn't speak out against these companies and policies is a perfect example of what could happen if people don't get over their fear of "communism/socialism". - behavedave, on 06/16/2009, -0/+4It sounds really strange to hear of countries that don't have state health, state pension etc and I start thinking it must be a poverty stricken thirld world country but in fact its the wealthiest. I do accept that state benefit is often abused however the new policy in the UK should address that where by anyone claiming will have to do community work (picking litter, tending communal gardens etc) so that should be a workable solution soon.
You say that you're country is facing massive financial debt because of freeloaders however you're equal or worse off than a lot of other semi-socialised western nations which must mean that the problem lies with your governments spending in other areas (unnecessary wars for a first off).
I understand that my semi-socialist solution will be looked upon with scorn from the states where such things are indoctrinated as an evil. I used to look upon the States as a place where the nations wealth came as a result of good choices but it appears to be more a case of working longer hours than the rest of the West and getting little in return. - tonyteetime, on 06/16/2009, -0/+3American Dream by George Carlin (RIP)
"Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice . . . you don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own, and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought, and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying . . . lobbying, to get what they want . . .
Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want . . . they don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that . . . that doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right. They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting ***** by a system that threw them overboard 30 *****' years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers . . . Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ***** jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it, and now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your *****' retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street, and you know something? They’ll get it . . . they’ll get it all from you sooner or later cause they own this *****' place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in The big club. By the way, it’s the same big club they use to beat you over the head with all day long when they tell you what to believe. All day long beating you over the head with their media telling you what to believe, what to think and what to buy.
The table has tilted folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. Good honest hard-working people . . . white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means . . . continue to elect these rich ***** who don’t give a ***** about you. They don’t give a ***** about you . . . they don’t give a ***** about you. They don’t care about you at all . . . at all . . . at all, and nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue dick that’s being jammed up their ***** everyday, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream cause you have to be asleep to believe it . . .” - Hillsfar, on 06/16/2009, -2/+5Please ignore my typos. I was still editing and the 5 minute limit came up.
- PeppermintPig, on 06/16/2009, -0/+3I'd like to be responsible for my own choices and keep my money, rather than giving it to the government and letting them make decisions on my behalf.
We can all be more prosperous, but it requires that we get beyond the zero sum absurdity of wealth redistribution. Taking from one person to give to another is a NEGATIVE wealth effect. - CSimonds, on 06/16/2009, -0/+3It's really easy for someone with a huge income to simply tell us "average citizens" we need to save more for the future. I put 10% of my income into 401K for YEARS and had a hefty nest egg. It is now gone thanks to our stinking economy. I was putting after-tax money into a savings account but it pays very little interest. We rarely go out to eat, drive paid off cars, we buy clothes from consignment stores (as needed only), never go to the movies, we cut coupons and shop at discount food stores...and after all is said and done we still don't have anything to show for it. And about that savings account....every time you turn around something drains it. House and car repairs because they don't make anything last anymore. When we first got married in 1989 a month's worth of groceries averaged $115 -- without coupons. Now it averages $400 - with coupons and skipping expensive steak and convenience foods and buying off brands.
- apothekari, on 06/16/2009, -0/+3Don't fool yourself, Hillsfar.
The real enemy here is the corporations who run this country, the big money men who set up shop in the 80's and have raped and burned everything that got in their way.
I have lived just as frugally as you, did the right things, saved, put my money into my home and family, and then my wife got sick and the insurance I paid without fail for 15 years threw us away without a thought, My country threw billions down a rathole in the wrong country, and let Wall street rape my job, my savings, and ultimately my family.
So don't get lost in the mostly right wing ***** of "it's THEM! THEY are the reason you suffer." the Dems and Repub's are BOTH responsible for their collusion with big business at the cost of American's lives and they need to be stopped what ever it takes, so focus that lengthy diatribe at them not the mythical "lackadasical" youth. I know plenty of young people just out of college with 2 degrees that can't buy a ***** job right now. - Chordonblue, on 06/16/2009, -0/+3FTA: "It's not unlike what our great-great grandparents planned for, back before the concept of retirement came into vogue..."
Ya, except they didn't plan on living much past their 60's. - lazn, on 06/16/2009, -1/+4And tax for the average person is over 50% of their income once everything is added up these days. (federal, state, city, sales, etc etc)
- PeppermintPig, on 06/16/2009, -1/+4If you consume more than you produce, that is a problem.
But government is the #1 source of wealth destruction, not welfare beneficiaries. They establish these programs, but then go on spending sprees and military adventures, and use the Federal Reserve to try and eat the costs, but the creation of new money inflates the supply and destroys the value that people expect to be there. DESPITE the fact that this money should be accruing value as savings, the rate of inflation far supercedes any possible benefit to Social Security.
People would be better off taking care of their own finances in something not tied to the FRN. -
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