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Detroit's mood grim as automakers face the brink
reuters.com — Choices line up from bad to worse for many Detroit auto workers hit by a one-two punch from a housing slump and shrinking auto sales
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- sandiegodude, on 06/30/2008, -0/+24All on one page: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN282921 ...
- xmod3, on 06/30/2008, -8/+1Gabe Newell (founder of Valve) is the biggest dick in the gaming industry. Being a former ms employee, he is a puppet of MS and the Xbox 360.
http://www.google.com/search?q=gabe+newell+ps3&ie= ... - chops76, on 06/30/2008, -1/+3Now that I see it on one page, it really goes to show how greedy Reuters is about driving up page views and ad revenue. That article wasn't very long at all.
- Greengoo, on 06/30/2008, -1/+3I work for Nissan in Detroit, and I must say, things are just peachy around here. The title should say "Detroit's mood grim as AMERICAN automakers face the brink".
- captancaveman, on 06/30/2008, -2/+1 It is funny how Nissan had worse gas mileage than General Motors on their trucks. What is even funnier is GM metro had 50mpg way back when gas was cheap. everybody made fun of the geo. Just shows how brainwashed THE WORLD IS!! GM is trying to offload Hummer and they still get a bad name. I bet if Nissan bought Hummer and gave it worse gas mileage EVERYBODY WOULD THINK NISSAN WAS THE GREATEST.
You see the ?azteck? was ugly, but the element and sion are really ugly, and people love those suv's. see GM could make their cars out of gold with 45mph and you ANTI-AMERICAN PRO_NAFTA GIVE MY MONEY TO JAPAN_CHINA PEOPLE.
every dollar exported will never come back.
Oh, I hope you lose your job and can't pay your bills.(back at you)
- xmod3, on 06/30/2008, -8/+1Gabe Newell (founder of Valve) is the biggest dick in the gaming industry. Being a former ms employee, he is a puppet of MS and the Xbox 360.
- dolby, on 06/30/2008, -12/+8Detroit is dead sad to say GM has a market cap of 5 or 6 billion and it is America's largest auto maker. You can't get 33 percent of facebook for that.
- xenuxenuts, on 06/30/2008, -3/+6hell, EA is worth twice as much as GM.
- richmomz, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1Lee Iacocca, where are you?
- Butros, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2Facebook is overvalued.
- jefuchs, on 06/30/2008, -2/+65Detroit is facing its greatest opportunity ever. If they'd show some leadership, and build alternative fuel vehicles, they just might make a huge comeback.
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0505/058.html- CrazedLeper, on 06/30/2008, -7/+15You are correct but then--how'd they get in this "mess" to begin with? By making high-horsepower vehicles and blackballing electric cars because they were in bed with the oil industry. Now that the oil moguls are making money hand-over-fist and the car companies are headed south, the honeymoon is over. They deserve to suffer...and die (as an industry).
- earlycj5, on 06/30/2008, -8/+20No, they made them because gas was cheap and people bought them.
- jefuchs, on 06/30/2008, -2/+14earlyjc5,
Yes, oil was cheap and people wanted big cars, but there are numerous stories of Detroit killing efficient alternatives. Watch "Who killed the Electric Car?" There was a demand, but Detroit wouldn't allow people to own the cars... even the ones that had already been built.
Now Chevy is playing catch-up with the Chevy Volt, and I wish them well. Let's see if they make it a priority, or bury it and claim it wasn't viable. - CrazedLeper, on 06/30/2008, -4/+8They knew oil was a limited resource and that it was just a matter of time before peak oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory%2 ... was reached and a crisis would begin. There was an oil crisis in the 70's and no one could get gas but what did they do with the 30 years that followed? Invented SUVs and doubled consumption. And the car makers did take positive action to make the electric car an extinct species before it ever got off the ground.
Who Killed the Electric Car?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-720274006 ...
Even electric cars are second best since the technology exists for cars to run on water. Not much profit in that, is there?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgL8Gxz8Io0
Tell me that wasn't because they were in bed with the oil companies and I'll say that *you* are in bed with the oil companies. Either that or you're a stupid American--which is more likely. - CrazedLeper, on 06/30/2008, -4/+1Everyone who get's a new name "Hussein" gets a new home here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9LjGcNImU0 - silikon2, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1Gas got really cheap historically speaking in the 90s which made electric cars incredibly bad purchases at the time since they were extremely expensive and poor performing. There simply wasn't enough demand for GM to ever be able to break even on a $50K car that they had to subsidize to get anyone to buy to begin with. Plus, they had a huge potential safety liability--- they lost a major case because the car wasn't nearly as safe as standard cars, but they tried to market it like it was. That's why they wouldn't let anyone keep the cars even if they were willing to pay full price.
Those problems weren't unsolvable per se, but it made no economic sense at the time. - brad3378, on 07/01/2008, -0/+4How do you feel about American Auto part suppliers?
Should they suffer too?
How about local restaurants?
The local housing market?
This crisis is much bigger than 3 automotive companies.
Even people that don't work in the automotive sector are suffering in Detroit - especially those of us (myself included) that own homes in Michigan but work elsewhere.
- gquaglia, on 06/30/2008, -0/+15Too bad they won't. Instead of really pursuing fuel efficiency, they are touting cars getting only 25mpg as being so. Give me 35 to 40 and we'll talk.
- defwheezer, on 06/30/2008, -1/+7That's funny- look at the history of American auto makers... ***** cars and little innovation. GM, Ford, etc- Goodbye.
- jeffhansen, on 06/30/2008, -0/+52008 Saturn Aura HYBRID gets you 24 MPG city.
That just sucks.- Butros, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2True but the ford escape hybrid will do 32 mpg combined. That is an SUV btw. Saturn's VUE SUV gets 28 mpg combined. And the VUE is only a few grand more than the "mid-sized" prius.
- Fonix, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2Got a hybrid? nope, but they got 3 equally craptastic hummers coming out.
- akatherder, on 06/30/2008, -0/+4I think you're half right. The American automotive industry has been on a downward spiral for decades now. Everyone here knew it, but it was still the best thing we had. Switching to alternative fuels will get Detroit "above water" and keep the auto companies in business, but Honda and Toyota have cemented their places.
The real opportunity here is outside investment. There is a ridiculous amount of cheap real-estate (for businesses and residential), highly educated workers, and highly skilled tradespeople. Everyone is just waiting (salivating really) for more companies to do what Compuware did and open up shop in downtown Detroit. - richmomz, on 06/30/2008, -0/+3Unfortunately they are going to have to invest huge amounts of capital to get there. Retooling from making SUVs and Trucks to Hybrids and EVs will pretty much require rebuilding the entire business from the ground up, and they still will be at a competitve disadvantage with un-unionized overseas competition.
I smell another government bailout. Paiging Lee Iacoca!- Jlaugh, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1Well they have huge amounts of capital and know how to bad they have much to much invested in oil. But then again I don't see any electric solutions coming out from German or Japanese companies either.
- CrazedLeper, on 06/30/2008, -7/+15You are correct but then--how'd they get in this "mess" to begin with? By making high-horsepower vehicles and blackballing electric cars because they were in bed with the oil industry. Now that the oil moguls are making money hand-over-fist and the car companies are headed south, the honeymoon is over. They deserve to suffer...and die (as an industry).
- cdawzrd, on 06/30/2008, -6/+54That's what you get for being greedy and ignoring the facts about the need to shift away from big, gas-guzzling cars. Japan and Europe figured it out, no reason Detroit couldn't other than greed.
- iloveliberals, on 06/30/2008, -0/+15A big part of that was the government's tax incentives for buying SUVs. Tax policy allowed small businesses to aggressively writeoff vehicles that were OVER a certain weight.
That's insane, but that's the government for ya.- markder, on 06/30/2008, -2/+5Isn't it funny how so many of the governments actions seem like they're meant to drive the price of oil up. For example, what you just mentioned, the war in Iraq, aggressively creating tensions with Iran, etc.
- SmartfulDodger, on 06/30/2008, -0/+6The tax incentive you're talking about didn't show up until Bush was in office. We'd been driving inefficient cars long before that. Besides, the tax incentive only snagged a handfull of SUV's. That tax break was probably the reason we see so many Hummer's around, but wasn't the reason for Detriot's hardline when it comes to efficient cars.
- sodade, on 06/30/2008, -3/+12Agreed. I remember rationing in the 70s and all the small cars and trucks that came as a result. Gas prices went down and they chose to market "dick replacement" size vehicles instead of pushing the envelope. Evolve or die.
- FlyingSpaghetti, on 06/30/2008, -2/+11More like "Small dick compensation" vehicles.
- JointVenture, on 06/30/2008, -8/+2SHAQ has a really fast big car, does he have a small dick?
You ***** who cant afford nice cars always play the "dick size" card when discussing cars you CANT afford. - zeromous, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2I reserve the right to stop playing the dick card when you can actually afford the car you drive...without financing.
Otherwise you're just augmenting your penis size.
/never financed a car in my life
//drives a corolla for 20km a day
///gets a kick out of all the lexuses / benzes and other poor capital investments in the parking lot
////has gigantic penis
/v penis. - SmartfulDodger, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2I've never seen Shaq's dick, have you?
- JointVenture, on 07/01/2008, -2/+1Dennis Miller has, and he said it was pretty scary.
I have 0 debt *****.
Want pics of my cars and homes?
OK, I do rent in Bangkok, but only a fool would buy property there and not live there.
- gquaglia, on 06/30/2008, -3/+5They have always been slow to adapt. The imports were making QUALITY autos before GM and the others even had a concept of that word. If it wasn't for so many workers losing their jobs, I would love nothing more then to see ***** GM go out of business.
- cawpin, on 06/30/2008, -4/+2Yeah, because it wasn't just the 70s and 80 that gave them a bad reputation. Learn something before speaking. Oh, by the way, GM and Ford have higher initial quality than the Japanese imports.
- kd1s, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2The bitch of it is the quality on U.S. makes has been increasing year by year. But they're slow to adapt to market demand.
I want a purely electric vehicle, no gas engine or if at all a small one to drive a generator to keep the battery array topped off, none of this mechanically linked hybrid crap we have now.
Put it this way, my annual commute is < 10,000 miles. An electric vehicle would make perfect sense for me. - yardie, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2@cawpin: What the hell does higher initial quality mean? Is that saying the first one out the lot is the least likely to break. Anyway I had a '99 Ford Explorer that couldn't keep a working transmission to save its busted existence. How about that for initial quality.
- FutureGuy, on 06/30/2008, -2/+6Only if they had stuck with EV1 instead of killing it, this would have been a whole different story. Hope they don't do the same with Volt.
- cawpin, on 06/30/2008, -4/+4The EV1 was an experiment that the market wasn't ready for. Don't blame GM for doing good business. It wasn't a reasonable investment at the time.
- jrhelgeson, on 06/30/2008, -7/+32You're looking for greed in the wrong places. It is the union greed that has destroyed the auto makers. In every city that is dominated by a single large industry that is also unionized, you will see that the unions have destroyed that industry through the use of their collective bargaining power. What they seem to overlook is that collective bargaining also means collective suffering. Well over half the factory floor workers are drunk or stoned at work and the unions have forced the company to simplify the tasks of assembly to account for the impaired workers. If a worker on the assembly line installing a tail light threads a bolt wrong, rather than reverse the air gun and re-thread it the union *literally* forbids it, because that worker is taking away a job from someone else.
The unions force these big companies to become bulky, slow and bureaucratic and prevents them from being nimble and able to react to market conditions. Every plant closure or scale back involves union involvement. Need to re-tool a plant to have it build X instead of Y? Well, you need to give bonuses and pay raises to the employees because they're having to learn a new skill (a new task, actually). Detroit has been killed by the auto workers unions and so has Ohio. The steel industry is virtually non-existent in the USA because of union imposed inefficiencies -- it is now cheaper to take our iron ore from the ground, ship it to China for processing, then have the finished steel shipped back to us. Even with gas at $5 a gallon, it is cheaper to send it overseas.
Compounding the Union issue, each of these failed cities have been run for decades by Democrats, who see the solution to everything as raising taxes and increasing social programs. This is added to the fallacy that you can tax companies without hurting the consumer. They tax the auto part makers, who pass the increased costs to the auto makers. They tax the auto makers, who pass the tax onto the auto buyer. The big three auto makers can only support so much tax burden.
The end result is that it has killed innovation by the big three. Trying anything new costs so much money that it cannot be done, which is why foreign owned auto makers are taking us to the cleaners. Is it any wonder why Honda, Toyota and other foreign manufacturers will not build a plant in Detroit? They want to make cars AND make money. Plus the fact that they have their ownership outside the USA increases their profitability by an immediate 10% due to lower tax burden.- markder, on 06/30/2008, -1/+17I live in the Detroit area, and this comment is pretty accurate. I've heard of so many people getting paid for sitting on their ass its ridiculous. One veteran works at a plant that's inactive. He goes in, clocks in, leaves for 8 hours, comes back, clocks out and gets paid some ridiculous rate just because he's been with the company for so long. And there are a lot of backwards little cases like this that litter this already bulky company that unnecessarily creates 3 versions of the same SUV.
- brettg102, on 06/30/2008, -2/+9Please post this in the main threads as it needs to be read. Couldn't agree with you more. Dugg.
- lysdexic, on 06/30/2008, -1/+9Yep. Unions are the real cause of their lack of innovation. My father was a UAW member. He used to tell me he'd do his job in the first half hour of his shift, then go play cards with his coworkers or sleep through the rest of it. I don't know what he was making when he retired, but in the early-mid 80's he was making $20 per hour (roughly 40k per year).
- BrewBeau, on 06/30/2008, -2/+4I see how huge unions are a problem with productivity and profitability, but I don't see how it affects the reluctance of the automakers to make fuel efficient cars. I don't think corporate decisions and design teams are a union job, or are they?
- ljpj707, on 06/30/2008, -1/+4All very true. I live in Detroit. I hear it from a lot of people in the industry (not just the big 3, but all the parts and material manufactures as well) that they are scared of losing their houses, losing their big SUV's having to put their kids in (gasp!) public universities instead of private ones and my question to them is always this: Just what did you do with that $30.00 an hour job you've had for 20 years?
I do feel bad for the people who legitimately tried and are being screwed by some factor not in their control. But the blind sighted greed of others with their blatant over-indulgence on houses (they couldn't really afford) filled with gadgets they absolutely had to have is a big part of the stress they feel today. If they'd been prudent and lived within their means all that time, there would be plenty left to take care of themselves for a while now that the rain is falling.
There's a lot more to all of this than just high oil price speculation and corporate greed. Believe me, I've seen it, there's plenty of blame to go around. - tony23, on 07/01/2008, -0/+2@BrewBeau - What you missed was the part about how the Unions cause the company to become slow and bureaucratic.
- iloveliberals, on 06/30/2008, -0/+15A big part of that was the government's tax incentives for buying SUVs. Tax policy allowed small businesses to aggressively writeoff vehicles that were OVER a certain weight.
- dkmj17, on 06/30/2008, -6/+25ehh... Detroit's mood is always grim... have you ever been to Detroit? I'm certainly grim every time I go there... I think the problem is that it's Detroit.
- americascynic, on 06/30/2008, -0/+7Yeah. I live there. The problem isn't Detroit. The problem is that we became a one note town known only for making cars. Same crap happened to Cleveland when the steel industry folded. The problem stems from when a large booming city relies upon one industry for 85% of its work force. At some point, an industry will become weak and/or obsolete. If your town relies heavily upon it, it will no doubt suffer. My dad took his buy-out, and he literally stopped working 5 days ago. Day after he left, they announced they were closing down his plant in Pontiac (North of Detroit, for the non-Michigan types).
- FlyingSpaghetti, on 06/30/2008, -0/+7Ever since I saw Robocop I have had no desire to visit, or even pass through, Detroit.
- richmomz, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1Robocop was actually filmed in Dallas (if anyone cares). OCP headquarters is in fact the downtown Dallas BMV. I hear they still have an ED-209 to handle parking violations.
- iJessicaRabbit, on 06/30/2008, -1/+4Try going to a Tigers game; completely turns your outlook back around ;)
(had to say that... I'm a huge fan)- RizzoFrank, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1In comerica park is nice. But depending on which route you drive down to the park in you get to see the city and what its really like. Take gratiot down to the park instead of the freeway.
- PasteEater, on 07/01/2008, -0/+2Or Jefferson.
- iJessicaRabbit, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1Thanks for the suggestions :)
- etx313, on 06/30/2008, -14/+26FUD. I live in Detroit, Just purchased a house, Have a nice new car, and I enjoy my life here. But it's cool to ***** on Detroit right? Fact of the matter is the US in general is being milked by the Iraq war and EVERYONE EVERYWHERE is paying the price.
- krnldmp, on 06/30/2008, -1/+9Well things could be a little different. Detroit could be leading the world in automaker technology, efficiency, and profit, but nah.
- Treoinmypocket, on 06/30/2008, -9/+5Sorry, but you are going to have to explain how the Iraq war is hurting the US Economy, specifically housing and the auto market.
If, by some miracle you can connect spending billions in Iraq to slumping those markets then you will have to also agree that spending hundreds of billions to feed Africa (as Obama wants to do) or spending hundreds of billions on Universal health care wouldn't just make it worse.- nonymous666, on 06/30/2008, -0/+3So blowing $10B a month in Iraq isn't a bad thing?
- Treoinmypocket, on 06/30/2008, -2/+2To nonymous666nonymous666
I asked for a direct correlation to be explained. You don't appear to have an answer. - jman8888, on 06/30/2008, -3/+2obama just wants to redirect it into healthcare so... it wont make a difference. (and raise taxes on many familys.)
- Butros, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Except paying for healthcare will save US companies and citizens money. Also the government can play hardball with hospitals and pass the savings on to you (it's your money after all). Paying for health care != ***** away billions in Iraqistan.
- tony23, on 07/01/2008, -1/+1@Butros - keep on thinking like that when they tell you that you can't have your appendectomy for 6 months - get on the list.
- Treoinmypocket, on 07/01/2008, -1/+1Butros - "Except paying for healthcare will save US companies and citizens money. "
-Seriously? Have you thought about WHO is paying for it? The Federal government right? I hate to tell you this since you obviously are not aware of this obscure fact but, the federal government doesn't have any money...they get it from us...in the form of taxes.
How is the Federal government going to insure 300 million people? By collecting more taxes...from US. It has already been pointed out that this is not possible unless taxpayers are forced to participate. Do you know what that means? You can't opt out. You MUST participate. The federal government is going to FORCE you to give them your money so that you can have the healthcare THEY think you should have.
The DRAFT is forced participation in the military. What will they call this I wonder? - Kyan, on 07/03/2008, -0/+1No, the "you must participate" idea belonged to Hilary. AFAIK, that is not Obama's plan.
@tony23 As for waiting six months to remove an appendix, you are completely ignorant. That is an emergency procedure and will be taken care of in the emergency room. And if everyone has medical insurance and can therefore get regular check-ups, those emergency rooms will be much less crowded because they won't be full of uninsured people taking advantage of the emergency room for stupid stuff they could have cured easily if they'd been to their doctor once a year. But they're not insured, so they don't go to a doctor until it's really scary and then they go to the emergency room where it turns out its not scary, but they just took time away from a doctor on emergency room shift who could have got your appendix taken care of quicker.
Quit blindly repeating every bad thing you hear about heath care for everyone and stop and think. I'm not saying Obama has the right plan, but hopefully the issue will be addressed because he puts it on the agenda and then both side of the aisle reach a compromise that will in fact improve most people's health care. - Treoinmypocket, on 07/03/2008, -0/+1KYAN - actually Obama just squirms around the "you must participate" part of his plan. You are correct that Hillary doesn't mince words over it though.
As for these presumed piles of uninsured clogging up emergency rooms let me illuminate some facts:
I'm guessing you have heard that there are 45 million uninsured Americans, right?
Not true...take out the following.
-Non-Citizens
-Those "between insurance coverage" (those without insurance for less than 1 year)
You have 18 million people who are "chronically uninsured. That is 6% of the population. 1 out of every 15 people. Overturning our entire healthcare system ... FORCING 14 out of every 15 people to change their healthcare plan - in order to accommodate the 1 who has a problem - is tyrannical.
And, we haven't even addressed bringing that number down further by scrutinizing those 18 million people on the basis of their employment status and education. Did they drop out? Can they get a better job? Are they eating fast food every day instead of spending their food money wisely? Are they drug addicts? Lazy? I'm sure we can peel off a few million more before we get down to a real number of people who REALLY need help.
The "45 Million" originally came from 2005 Current Population Survey (CPS) Annual Social and Economic Supplement (ASEC)
http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p60-231.pdf
Read it. You'll find they counted 9.2 million non citizens of the United States.
You will also find that 35.6 million uninsured is actually closer to 18 million because The Census Bureau report notes that the number of uninsured people that they quote are not "chronically uninsured." In fact many of them have had insurance during the preceding year, but were "between insurances" at the time of the survey. They suggest looking at a Congressional Budget Office Report, "How Many People Lack Health Insurance and For How Long?," to understand this effect.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?index=4210&type=0&se ...
- BoonTobias, on 06/30/2008, -1/+5You are correct, however it is not just the war, the US auto industry had it coming when most of their cars are still over 2.5L and don't get better mpg.
They still try to sell you a car as big as the chrysler 300 or the g8 while the whole world uses cars that are much smaller in average. Both those cars are great and are probably very comfortable but they couldn't put that behind us.
Check out the article about thousands of american SUVs sitting somewhere in a lot and nobody is buying them.
They didn't want to downsize their cars, so now they're gonna have to downsize their profits and businesses. - brstilson, on 06/30/2008, -2/+11I bet you don't live in Detroit. I bet you actually live in one of those posh suburbs like Rochester Hills, Northville, Novi, Plymouth, Grosse Pointe, or Troy that surround Detroit.
- whitelights, on 06/30/2008, -1/+3Do you honest to god think Plymouth is a POSH suburb?
I've lived here my entire life, my dad as an automotive engineer being laid off and unemployed for years on end. Currently, we're lucky.
Go to hell. - brstilson, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1I lived in Plymouth for two years. McMansions everywhere, downtown filled with richbitches and bros, high-end supermarket. Maybe it's not as nice as Rochester Hills, but it's a far cry from Taylor, Hamtramck, or Alan Park.
- etx313, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1Ya got me buddy! I live 1/4 mile away from the border of the city. Man, you're so smart.
- whitelights, on 06/30/2008, -1/+3Do you honest to god think Plymouth is a POSH suburb?
- VeryBoredNow, on 06/30/2008, -2/+2You probably sell weed
- etx313, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1I don't sell weed. But I do make you want to buy the things you don't want or need through the power of suggestion. Oh yeah, big market for that here too.
- salinemist, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puw2bahu7wQ
- j0hnk377y, on 06/30/2008, -1/+16Meanwhile people are lining up to buy foreign hybrids.....How about getting on your game better, you're supposed to know the market you are playing in.
- Dustin00, on 06/30/2008, -3/+52My first car after landing a real job was a GM Saturn. I've been driving it for 10 years.
Last year, rather than compete, Detroit focused on lobbyists to prevent congress from raising the gas millage for new vehicles.
My next car will be a Prius. I'll take a picture of it and send it to my local Saturn dealership and congratulate them on their US congress lobbying efforts.- paulmer2003, on 06/30/2008, -8/+5I hope you realize just how long it takes to recoup your money saved due to gas. And in addition to gas prices, you have to buy a brand new car (Prius's aren't exactly cheap). Much better economically to keep the Saturn running for as long as you can without too much investment.
- stonewall123, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Although it true that the best thing economically and financially to do is to keep the old gal running if you are in the market for a new car the price difference of a prius versus a comparable sized camry is not that much. MSRP: $18,920 – $28,470 for a Camry LE and MSRP: $21,500 – $23,770 for the Prius ( http://autos.yahoo.com/search/;_ylt=AlTA_Dkl0lF5.A ... ). At 4.00 - 5.00 per gallon this is very competetitve. Too bad you can't get the federal tax credit for the Prius anymore.
- skoles, on 06/30/2008, -0/+7It sends the message that the consumer wants fuel efficient vehicles.
- Dustin00, on 06/30/2008, -8/+8It's not about the money for me. I COULD go buy some $80,000 SUV.
It's about reducing my carbon foot print. It's about caring for the earth. It's about caring about the quality of life for everybody. - gquaglia, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1Got to start somewhere.
- koft, on 06/30/2008, -0/+10The sales guys at the dealerships didn't have anything to do with that, why rub their noses in it? Send your pictures to the suits on the board of directors, those are the guys calling the shots.
- nedzeve, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2They have a choice in where they work. If work is slow for them, then they should go apply over at the Toyota lot.
- cawpin, on 06/30/2008, -7/+5"Last year, rather than compete, Detroit focused on lobbyists to prevent congress from raising the gas millage for new vehicles."
Yeah, Saturn doesn't have any hybrids....idiot. - beesaretasty, on 06/30/2008, -4/+3Prius is crap. If it wasn't for Larry David driving one, I'd automatically assume anyone driving it is an *****.
- Butros, on 06/30/2008, -0/+3It's the new status symbol. Smarter buys like the civic hybrid get overlooked by people wanting to impress their neighbors just like the idiots that bought eddie bauer expeditions 2-5 years ago.
- angrylinuxgeek, on 06/30/2008, -4/+2Are you aware of the Saturn hybrids they're releasing?
- stonewall123, on 06/30/2008, -1/+024city/32 highway combined for both Vue SUV and Aura sedan. Not great but a step in the right direction.
- knowitman, on 06/30/2008, -1/+3Nearly every automaker, including Toyota, lobbied to prevent Congress from raising the gas mileage for new vehicles.
- nutsackninja, on 06/30/2008, -5/+1You have a small penis
- NJank, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1seriously, I'd look for another used Saturn. 2002 SL2's under 100k miles should still be out there. I hate the fact that they discontinued that model.
- prophetpimp, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2For God Sake VW Golf gives better mileage then a Prius.
- Butros, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1Hey now, don't make me report you to the Toyota marketing team.
- balthisar, on 06/30/2008, -0/+0Detroit, Japan, Korea, and Germany all had their lobbyists there, too.
- inyearstocome, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1I was with you until you said Prius... but as crappy as they are, I suppose its still a step up from Saturn. (except for the sky)
- paulmer2003, on 06/30/2008, -8/+5I hope you realize just how long it takes to recoup your money saved due to gas. And in addition to gas prices, you have to buy a brand new car (Prius's aren't exactly cheap). Much better economically to keep the Saturn running for as long as you can without too much investment.
- oddturtle, on 06/30/2008, -15/+5Stop making ***** cars? Work for less than a Chinese person? I thought this was America, not France. Cry me a ***** river.
- londubh, on 06/30/2008, -12/+58Detroit has had 30 years to get their act together. So ***** them.
- JointVenture, on 06/30/2008, -8/+3I agree, besides most of the people in Detroit are black, so ***** em right?
- londubh, on 06/30/2008, -2/+4Not at all. Let me clarify. ***** the Detroit automakers. They are the ones who have let down the black community. If they'd made decent and fuel efficient cars there'd still be plenty of people employed, black, white, brown, or yellow.
- JointVenture, on 06/30/2008, -8/+3I agree, besides most of the people in Detroit are black, so ***** em right?
- NelsonR, on 06/30/2008, -3/+11No sympathy here. Any fool, you know like our leaders concerning the continuing future recession/depression, should have seen it coming years ago. Like our government the auto industry deserves going belly up for the stupidity they garnered.
Go ahead and build more hummers. - NZN444, on 06/30/2008, -1/+19People want to buy American... and new designs are nice and all... but where is the vision that responds to market needs before the market needs them? Toyota and Honda know how to do it... where are the intelligent American automotive leaders? Is a 30+ mpg car with enough capacity for a family of four too much to ask... the Ford Escape Hybrid should have been the beginning of something...not the end.
- etx313, on 06/30/2008, -0/+5Personally I think that Escape Hybrid is bad-ass. My friend has one and she loves it.
- stubear, on 06/30/2008, -1/+0The first models sucked. I bought a 2006 Jeep liberty a couple years ago and I looked at the Ford Escape Hybrids. They were seriously underpowered and they were far too expensive with no incentives to buy them coming from Ford. I would have been happier with the diesel version of the Liberty (so I could mod it for bio-diesel) but my state is one of those that doesn't allow diesels due to the California emissions laws. I heard they addressed the problems with the lack of power but I don't think they offer any incentives still. A one-time tax break of ~$2300 won't cut it either.
- jorisb, on 06/30/2008, -1/+3Saturn Aura and Chevy malibu come to mind, they each have hybrids available too.
- nonymous666, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2There's a Saturn Vue hybrid, too. There's going to be more efficient next-gen version of the hybrid engine in it later this year.
- etx313, on 06/30/2008, -0/+5Personally I think that Escape Hybrid is bad-ass. My friend has one and she loves it.
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -9/+15Then quit making ***** cars guys.
I'm sick of the crap that comes out of Detroit. Things suck for them now but the warning signs have been there for years.
European Cars >>>>>>>> Japanese Cars >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> US cars.
.- gtluke, on 06/30/2008, -7/+5you do know that ford and GM pretty much own all the european car sales right?
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2Wrong.
GM is known as Opel (of Vauxhall in Britain), and they are a joke, although the european version of their cars far out class the ***** they serve to you over there.
Ford sells quite well, but that's because they are made by Europeans to a European spec.
Look up the reviews smart guy.
Together they make up about 35% of European sales, hardly "Owning" now is it? - kcb2, on 06/30/2008, -0/+4WTF? Ford owns Mazda and Volvo (used to own Land Rover and Jaguar). GM owns Saab and Opel.
Where as VW owns Audi, Seat, Skoda (a good portion of the European market) and Puegot (Citroen), Renault and Fiat have a portion as well.
http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm ... - prophetpimp, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Land Rover and Jaguar Is Indian now. (WooHoo)
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2Wrong.
- koft, on 06/30/2008, -1/+15Go diagnose an electrical problem in the emissions system on a BMW and tell me how great you think european cars are.
- nonymous666, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Or a VW / Audi.
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Well you're gonna need the right machinery to do the job. That is the diagnostics hardware and the expertise in its use. Things have moved on, you need more than an oily rag and a monkey wrench to do the job these days.
- BoonTobias, on 06/30/2008, -1/+8euro cars are not better than japanese, the build quality is better on a honda than bmw,
take a jap car and a euro car that cost the same and then compare
and i had an e30 before and i loved it- gtluke, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2e30's were the pinnacle of bmw
i doubt they will even make a car so awesome again.
hell its smaller and lighter than the new 1 series.
rwd 2.5, what else could you ask for from a sedan
- gtluke, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2e30's were the pinnacle of bmw
- gtluke, on 06/30/2008, -7/+5you do know that ford and GM pretty much own all the european car sales right?
- ericdano, on 06/30/2008, -4/+11I think it is funny. I saw an ad on TV for Cadallic Escalade. It was focused on the AC seats (I think), or something. But they had to throw in there something like "best fuel economy". Yeah, right. What, it gets 15 miles to the gallon?
I remember the first car I bought out of High School. A Hyundai, and it got 30........actually, it would frequently get about 35. And this was in the early 90s. What the hell happened?- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -3/+7Nothing has changed. US cars guzzle fuel like fat pigs. They do now and they always have.
- cawpin, on 06/30/2008, -4/+8Yeah, they sure do guzzle gas, all of them. You're an uneducated turd. My Cobalt gets 36 or higher on the highway and 25-30 in town. Why don't you rip on Toyota for building their big SUV? It gets worse mileage than the Escalade.
- Buelldozer, on 06/30/2008, -3/+2Second cawpin. My Grand Prix get's 18MPG city and 36 Highway. That's with a supercharged V6 that will put a serious hurting on most of the econobox cars.
- texpundit, on 06/30/2008, -2/+3The Toyota Sequoia? I don't think so. My sister had one for a few years (just got rid of it and got a Lexus hybrid SUV) and, driving sensibly, could get 26-28mpg on the highway and about 20mpg in the city. Pretty much blows the living hell out of ANY large US-made SUV.
- brstilson, on 06/30/2008, -1/+3US cars get comparable gas mileage to foreign cars in their respective classes. The problem is that throughout the 90's and early 00's the average American didn't buy a Chevy Cavalier, a Ford Escort, or a Dodge Neon. During that time, the average American was buying a Ford F-150, a Dodge Ram, or a Chevy Silverado. Later, they "upgraded" to a Ford Excursion or Chevy Avalanche.
Only now has gas gotten to a level where Americans are really having to adjust their lifestyles. $4 a gallon was the cut off point. Once we got there, things started to change. SUV and truck sales are now in a free-fall, and American car companies are answering with hybrids and smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles.
American car manufacturers are only responding to trends. If most people want a big, comfortable truck, then you have to make big, comfortable trucks to stay in business. Now, people are starting to demand fuel efficiency, so making fuel-efficient cars is what these manufacturers are going to do. - IronDonut, on 06/30/2008, -1/+0Who is getting 26mpg out of a Toyota Sequoia? Do you drive downhill everywhere?
I just took a long road trip in a Lexus LX470 which is mechanically identical to the Sequoia and it averaged 16 - 17mpg. And that was being careful not to brake late, coasting downhill a lot and keeping a reasonable speed.
No amount of trickery will move a boxy 5500lb vehicle on a small amount of gas.
- brstilson, on 06/30/2008, -4/+4What happened? Safety and emission regulations. That equipment adds a lot of extra weight.
- IronDonut, on 06/30/2008, -0/+3Not really. The emission equipment actually had the effect of making the cars more eff. By tightly computer controlling and monitoring the combustion process they really squeezed a lot more energy out of the same fuel.
So a certain degree on the safety hardware.... but not really. The mini cooper passes all the safety regs and so does the Miata.
What really happened is that horsepower and size increased like never before. Never have cars been as large or as powerful as they are now. It's very common place to see a 400+hp car or SUV.
In fact GM claims that the engine in the Corvette Z06 is the most powerful engine they've ever installed in a mass produced car.
- IronDonut, on 06/30/2008, -0/+3Not really. The emission equipment actually had the effect of making the cars more eff. By tightly computer controlling and monitoring the combustion process they really squeezed a lot more energy out of the same fuel.
- defwheezer, on 06/30/2008, -1/+4What happened was GREED.
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -3/+7Nothing has changed. US cars guzzle fuel like fat pigs. They do now and they always have.
- desuexmachina, on 06/30/2008, -5/+2Haven't they been on the brink for the last 25 years? Every couple of years I see the same thing being said. It's a great way to guilt people into buying a new car, I guess. Aren't they making a killing from this 'green' thing they're marketing now?
Everybody buy a new car because your old car which was produced in the last 5 years is bad for the environment and now we have a new one with a hybrid engine and 5 years down the line the hybrids will be stupid and polluteful and we'll sell you another one with a different engine (which is not the same thing as a difference engine) - mmmunaf, on 06/30/2008, -5/+19Excessive union power + choosing your product line based on today's market rather than tomorrow's + gross white and blue collar inefficiency = GM
And putting your best hybrid technology in giant SUVs? Brilliant strategy. It's like putting feather-light running shoes on a gigantic football player.- bemenaker, on 06/30/2008, -3/+3Actually, the best place to use hybrid tech is in heavy vehicles. That is where you get the most gain from it. Granted Detroit is still obsessed with BIG and that is a major problem.
- mmmunaf, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Not when gas prices are this high, and not when they have to balance out their fuel economy across their entire product line in order to meet CAFE standards.
- InetRoadkill, on 06/30/2008, -0/+4I think the point is that Detroit is trying to put makeup on a pig. Why spend time and money making a hybrid gas guzzler? Detroit is doing their best to prop up the overweight road barge SUVs instead of facing the music that their day is gone. You can't force the market.
- bemenaker, on 06/30/2008, -3/+3Actually, the best place to use hybrid tech is in heavy vehicles. That is where you get the most gain from it. Granted Detroit is still obsessed with BIG and that is a major problem.
- Thrilltone, on 06/30/2008, -1/+8The future doesn't look good for Detroit either. The Europeans are developing electric cars faster than we are and they are going to be a lot cheaper than what Detroit has planned.
- nonymous666, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1The Europeans will initially release those upcoming cars in Europe only. It will be fairly longer before we see them in the U.S.... Time to market in the U.S. is slower due to extra safety regulations that need to be engineered / tested / approved.
The Euros and Asians get new cars on the streets in their continents quick, due to less red tape (barely any in Asia). Then they go back an re-engineer in order to meet tight-assed U.S. safety regulations. (And make sure they engineer out some weeknesses so they don't get their asses sued when some idiot U.S. driver crashes and wants to blame it on the auto maker).- Thrilltone, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1The Swiss Twike has already sold out it's allotment of vehicles for the U.S. until 2009.
http://www.twike.us/
The Norwegian Think is arriving in 2009
http://www.think.no/
The Microwatt and Moose are supposedly available in the U.S. now, at 12 and 13 thousand dollars. They carefully avoid mentioning any country of origin, which probably means China?
http://www.greenvehicles.com/
Plenty more vehicles are waiting in the wings - natsfan, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1European standards aren't easier, they're just different- try to import an U.S. built car and get safety/emissions tests done
- prophetpimp, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1Most American Cars don't even pass Chinese or even Indian Safety and Emission Norms so forget about europe.
- Thrilltone, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1The Swiss Twike has already sold out it's allotment of vehicles for the U.S. until 2009.
- nonymous666, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1The Europeans will initially release those upcoming cars in Europe only. It will be fairly longer before we see them in the U.S.... Time to market in the U.S. is slower due to extra safety regulations that need to be engineered / tested / approved.
- johndavidjack, on 06/30/2008, -5/+9I'll still buy a gas guzzler when my 1993 Ford dies on me. I pay more for gas, but I also make money helping people move, selling scrap metal, etc. I'll pay the gas money...
- pianomahnn, on 06/30/2008, -6/+5You are so awesome!!
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -10/+4Scrap metal? I'm guessing you never made it all the way through high school.
Your lack of education and general ignorance amuses me. Tell me more about your life.- johndavidjack, on 06/30/2008, -2/+6Well, you see what is funny that I'm 3 years through an IT degree at a 4 year college. Maybe I like to make as much money doing work as I can in order to support myself, instead of talking ***** about other people's lifestyles over the computer.
Bravo... - AmusedToDeath, on 06/30/2008, -2/+2By all means alan, please regale us with tales of all the wonderful contributions you've made to the world. You a Harvard or a Yale man?
- kidathinnes, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1I've been looking over alanr's comments and he is by far the biggest waste of life I have seen on digg. Constantly starting ***** and trying to piss people off. Go die Alanr
- johndavidjack, on 06/30/2008, -2/+6Well, you see what is funny that I'm 3 years through an IT degree at a 4 year college. Maybe I like to make as much money doing work as I can in order to support myself, instead of talking ***** about other people's lifestyles over the computer.
- chuckDontSurf, on 06/30/2008, -1/+5"A truck make money. Car don't make money."
- dickeywayne, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2My company's home office is in Longview! LOL!
- FlyingSpaghetti, on 06/30/2008, -1/+4Thank you for that advice Hulk.
- bemenaker, on 06/30/2008, -2/+3Well, you have a justification for drving a vehicle like that. Not because your ass is too fat to fit in a small car. Or because you foolishly think an SUV is safter, when the laws of physics say otherwise, and Detroit lobbied to keep SUV's from having to pass the safety standards of a car.
- nedzeve, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1Do you often fight with your wife about the hulk hogan poster hanging in your living room?
- johndavidjack, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1No, she gets to keep a Ted Nugent poster next to it...
- Urbalist, on 06/30/2008, -5/+6It sucks to live in Michigan. Especially for me being a college student. Internships are near impossible to find and paying my bills is getting harder and harder.
- defwheezer, on 06/30/2008, -4/+3move
- Greengoo, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1I made it through ok ('07 from MSU) and you will too. Think of it as a challenge.
- Crisender111, on 06/30/2008, -2/+10GO ELECTRIC!
***** the Oil Economy. Why is the RnD not sufficiently made in the Electric Bike/Car department (or is it stalled on purpose)?!- cambob76, on 06/30/2008, -7/+2Where do we get Electricity from??? Mostly coal. If we have electric cars and bikes, instead of burning oil, we'd have to burn more coal... which comes from the same organic matter oil does and is just as bad, if not worse than burning oill. Same problem with hydrogen. In order to get hydrogen, we'd have to use fossil fuels to make it... these are not answers. The magical battery McBush wants would do nothing either. It would only be more space to store the extra electricity we don't have...
- Jlaugh, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1Hydrogen doesn't require fossil fuels to produce it just takes electricity. Less electricity is needed to split the water molecule than common wisdom would let on.
- gquaglia, on 06/30/2008, -1/+5Stalled on purpose. Electric cars use less parts. Auto makers make big money on selling spare parts. Remember Dick Jones' comment on ED209 in Robocop when he proclaimed being to sell "spare parts for 25 years, who cares if it works" GM is the biggest bunch of douches in the industry.
- cambob76, on 06/30/2008, -7/+2Where do we get Electricity from??? Mostly coal. If we have electric cars and bikes, instead of burning oil, we'd have to burn more coal... which comes from the same organic matter oil does and is just as bad, if not worse than burning oill. Same problem with hydrogen. In order to get hydrogen, we'd have to use fossil fuels to make it... these are not answers. The magical battery McBush wants would do nothing either. It would only be more space to store the extra electricity we don't have...
- Homerr, on 06/30/2008, -1/+11I can't remember the last time I lusted for an American car that I could actually afford to buy (i.e. not a Corvette).
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -9/+1LOL @ corvette, the redneck ferrari. you poor deluded douche. read the reviews and compare it to the sports cars that are coming out of europe. corvette is a fat slab of garbage on bed springs.
looks pretty though, and that's what really counts to americans.- cawpin, on 06/30/2008, -1/+4Are you a ***** idiot? The Corvette is, and always has been, the leader in performance for the dollar. The Z06, and the new ZR1, will kick your Ferrari's ass. I think YOU need to read the reviews.
- thisguy457, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2I'm with you cawpin. The Z06 crushes the modena 360 and is barely beaten by the F430 which is triple the price.
The ZR1 beats both in 0-60 and top speed and is half the price.
F430 Scuderia: 0-60 3.6 sec, Top Speed 199 mph
ZR1: 0-60 3.4 sec, Top Speed 205 mph - nonymous666, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2The redneck ferrari was the TransAm & Camaro.
Corvettes are for uneducated city folk who've managed to actually earn some decent money and so think they suddenly have class. - alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1@thisguy457
you're comparing a run-of-the-mill line ferarri with the absolute top of the line US sports car? hardly seems fair.
how about comparing it with the Swedish Koenigsegg (0-60 in 3.1 sec.) or even the Italian Barabus TKR with a 0-60 mph in 1.67 secs?
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/21/barabus-tkr-0-6 ...
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/28/koenigsegg-ccx- ...
Nah I thought not. Way to compare apples with oranges you ***** douchebag.. - prophetpimp, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1And when a Conner Comes you see the Ferrari coming through while the Corvette is off the track.
- Butros, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1alanr19, I hope you are joking... If not you're a ***** idiot.
- etx313, on 06/30/2008, -1/+7How about that new G8? That thing is f'ing nice. Or a Dodge Charger.
- nedzeve, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2As long as it's bright orange and has a confederate flag painted on the roof, I'm in!
- eryximachus, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2The Cadillac CTS is pretty awesome and very reasonably priced.
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -9/+1LOL @ corvette, the redneck ferrari. you poor deluded douche. read the reviews and compare it to the sports cars that are coming out of europe. corvette is a fat slab of garbage on bed springs.
- jimmies, on 06/30/2008, -6/+7Don't worry, the unions will save them, they always do! (sic)
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -4/+5by getting off their commy asses and doing some work?
thats so crazy it actually might work! - etx313, on 06/30/2008, -3/+13The Unions are the ***** that put Detroit in this position. I don't have a Union at work. I have to do good work and be an asset to my employer to keep my job. ***** Unions.
- crunchyeyeball, on 06/30/2008, -0/+5The word 'sic' - I do not think it means what you think it means.
- jimmies, on 06/30/2008, -2/+1meh. i guess i'm not perfect after all. who knew?
- iJessicaRabbit, on 06/30/2008, -0/+3When you are quoting something that has a spelling or grammar mistake or presents material in a confusing way, insert the term sic in italics and enclose it in brackets. Sic means, "This is the way the original material was."
...not sure why it was used here though or if it was even meant to be. - nedzeve, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2I think he was trying to indicate sarcasm.
- Kyan, on 07/03/2008, -0/+2He wrote:
Don't worry, the unions will save them, they always do! (sic) [sic]
- InetRoadkill, on 06/30/2008, -0/+6The unions ran Detroit's manufacturing costs up for sure. But keep in mind that much of Detroit's production is now done in Mexico or Canada. Also, the unions didn't have anything to do with Detroit's decision to stick with the gas guzzler SUV mindset instead anticipating a demand for more fuel efficient cars like every other foreign manufacturer did.
- strafefire, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2WRONG!!!
The UAW has contracts with GM and Ford that only allow for one new vehicle model change to be introduced in a plant PER YEAR!
PER YEAR!
That is the major reason why the European version of many vehicles [like the Euro version of the Focus], are not made in the states. When Ford finally gets around to selling this model here, they have to IMPORT it! - jimmies, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1GM, Ford, and Chryslerberus were all in financial trouble long before the current fuel crisis.
- strafefire, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2WRONG!!!
- gquaglia, on 06/30/2008, -1/+4Wrong, WE will bail them out in the form of a government bailout.
- alanr19, on 06/30/2008, -4/+5by getting off their commy asses and doing some work?
- paulmer2003, on 06/30/2008, -4/+16Some ideas for GM:
1.) Plug in hybrids with diesel engines (disel is much more fuel efficient than petrol, in addition, new technology just this year has came out for the cleanest burning diesels ever).
2.) They've been talking about electric vehicles for a long time. Walk the walk. Put one in to production.
3.) Stop foaming at the mouth about fuel cell hydrogen. Focus more on more realistic, shot term alternatives, such as electric and E85 (sugar cane, not corn!).- cawpin, on 06/30/2008, -0/+4All GM vehicles will run on E85. They have been that way for the last 5 years on most of their lines. They were one of the first to do so. They are bringing out the Volt in the next year or two. There is talk of a diesel electric for the next couple years too. Diesel cars just don't sell well in the US, especially now that diesel is more than gasoline, which is just wrong.
- gquaglia, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1Don't hold your hand on your ass waiting for this to happen.
- nedzeve, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1Why not? Would his hand fall asleep?
- nonymous666, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2The U.S. electricity grid can barely handle our air conditioners, let alone us all plugging in our cars.
- paulmer2003, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1Yeah, well, perhaps if we weren't burning so much petrol that petrol could be used to power our electricity plants :)
- austria, on 06/30/2008, -6/+8Lincoln Park, MI to Toledo, OH = 48.3 miles (49 min drive) that's not that crazy of a commute, suck it up man.
- metfoo, on 06/30/2008, -0/+9obviously youve never made the drive. It may be a 49 mile drive, but its a 90 minute commute
- damagemanual, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1Second this fact!
- eryximachus, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1It'd be cake if they had a commuter train! People commute further than that all the time in the NYC metro area.
- metfoo, on 06/30/2008, -0/+9obviously youve never made the drive. It may be a 49 mile drive, but its a 90 minute commute
- SOS84, on 06/30/2008, -0/+15This story saddens me as I am Detroit native but if the Big Three had not been fighting change tooth and nail for a decade, this situation may not have happened. The did not have to spend their war chest fighting increases in fuel economy. They did not have to fight a market that has largely rejected the NASCAR crowd. Profits are not a right.
- nastronomical, on 06/30/2008, -4/+13If anyone cares about Detroit then let it die, along with the automakers. it is only after it has hit rock bottom can it be reborned; faster, sleeker and more competitive. At the moment it is a dying corpse held together by unions and corruption.
BTW death to the auto workers union, your time has come and pass.- stonerider, on 06/30/2008, -2/+2It's not the union's fault that the MANAGEMENT fsck'ed up the industry. If it weren't for the union, the management would've lowered the worker's wage to minimum level and cut health and other benefits to none. Would that helped the Detroit's current state? No. Detroit/Big Three are facing a bleak future precisely because of BAD MANAGEMENT, nothing to do with unions and/or corruption.
- fstfrk13, on 06/30/2008, -6/+5Finally American car companies get whats been coming to them. They are one of the least efficient companies in America because of government subsidies. They have been behind foreign car companies for years and they will never catch up. By the time they are able to produce hybrids, Honda and Toyota will be producing hydrogen cars. There is no way they can catch up. They deserve to go out of business for being a horrible company. But the goverment will never let that happen. Even though we should be spending those resources in industries we are actually good at.
- eggsovereasy, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1They've been making hybrids for a few years now... where have you been?
- DrPh0bius, on 06/30/2008, -0/+11(I am a Detroiter... just a note)
The Detroit auto companies have had an "alternate" marketing plan. Playing the "Buy American" angle... of course, a bunch of their lines are actually Mexican and Canadian imports... but they hope no one looks into that.
I remember a couple of years ago, Ford closed down its gigantic excursion line... and started an extended cab Explorer line.
These companies are suffering from their own hubris in trying to TELL us what we want instead of looking at what sells... - katorga, on 06/30/2008, -2/+1All the car makers, except Honda, Hyundai, and some of the lower tier manufacturers are going to get reamed....the cars that are selling most now are their lowest profit margin models.
- Greengoo, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1Nissan is on an eight-year upswing. All hail Ghosn.
- radink360, on 06/30/2008, -2/+3Idea. Make better vehicles that last, and that don't eat gas like the oceans are made of it.
- Kyan, on 07/03/2008, -0/+1Or open dealerships on Jupiter?
- jbmcb, on 06/30/2008, -4/+3This just in - the big three have been dead dozens of times in the past, just like Apple. Good journalism, there.
- Rosco, on 06/30/2008, -0/+4The mood in Detroit has been grim since the 80's, unless you live in Gross Pointe, of course.
- tuneyfish, on 06/30/2008, -5/+6Grew up in Detroit, now living in Seattle. Everything spiraled down after 9/11 and it just keeps getting worse there. I left in 2006, and it was next to impossible to sell my home. I lost a LOT. I bought a condo on Mercer Island, WA and in 6 months I had almost 100k in equity, invested it in a flip and made another 100k. Luckily right before the real estate market took a dump. I am one of many that had to leave Detroit, but have not forgotten it. Its my home, and I'm very proud to say I grew up there. I'm working on a documentary that is now part of my new video site that helps people envision their dreams and watch them become reality. I am 100% positive that if Detroiter's believe and envision it, the city will come back and come back strong. Tech companies could do very well there, lots of tax breaks and incentives. The people work VERY hard there, they just need to be given a new job.
- FattJesus, on 06/30/2008, -0/+9I can't wait to graduate and get the ***** out of here.
- Rosco, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Run, don't walk when you get out. I'm thinking of leaving Michigan for South Carolina myself.
- bemenaker, on 06/30/2008, -0/+9It sucks that Americans are going to lose their jobs from this (short term), but the companies themselves deserve every bit of this. They have fought hard to avoid change. They have stifled innovation. They have refused to move into the 21st century. Now their pants are around their ankles, and they don't know what to do other than scream and panic. Too slow, too late. In a free market society, they die, and someone comes along and replaces them. Honda and Toyota will be happy to expand their production here to make up for your stupidity Detroit. Good riddance.
Mayb you should ahve made some cars that get over 30MPG. Maybe Ford should have brought out their 50MPG diesel version of the focus. IDIOTS- goph, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2It doesn't really help that diesel is quite a bit more expensive than unleaded
- nicc, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2while the price of diesel is currently a barrier, you more than make up for its cost due to mileage savings.
- strafefire, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2The UAW has contracts with GM and Ford that only allow for one new vehicle model change to be introduced in a plant PER YEAR!
PER YEAR!
That is the major reason why the European version of many vehicles [like the Euro version of the Focus], are not made in the states. When Ford finally gets around to selling this model here, they have to IMPORT it!
- goph, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2It doesn't really help that diesel is quite a bit more expensive than unleaded
- goph, on 06/30/2008, -11/+8You can thank Unions for killing GM
- stonerider, on 06/30/2008, -2/+4Unions did NOT kill GM/FoMoCo/ChryslerMB. ALL auto makers in the states, including Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW employ union workers. The difference between the Big Three and the Foreign competitors? Management. Do you really think a union worker making $18/hour is making too much money? Try the GM CEO. Or any other HIGHLY paid management people in the auto industry. Blame them, not the little guys. Who made the decision to push gas guzzling SUV's to American people? Not the union guys. It's MANAGEMENT.
- localzuk, on 06/30/2008, -0/+5Oh come on! Detroit already went through one major collapse. What did they do to diversify? Nothing. Instead, they just crossed their fingers and hoped things would return to the days of old.
Wake up Detroit. The only way you will survive is by diversifying. Even the oil rich countries in the middle east are diversifying! Dubai is turning itself into a commerce center. You should have already done something.- brad3378, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1Easier said than done.
- dickeywayne, on 06/30/2008, -0/+4The sad fact is, that *any* time the auto industry in Detroit slumps, the housing market there will, too. It's gotta suck to have a mortgage and no job, but that's the way it's going to work in any area with one big industry.
- HenryFatass, on 06/30/2008, -0/+4I think it's a sign of the times when the first thing that pops into my head when I hear "Detroit" is somebody getting shot...and the last thing I think of is automobiles.
- stonewall123, on 06/30/2008, -1/+3They should team up with Tesla motors ( http://www.teslamotors.com/ ) to bring electric to the masses (that's assuming that Tesla might be interested). Not surprisingly, lots of innovation is happening in silicon valley right now. Tesla won't be making cars for the mass market anytime soon as they are more geared towards the high end market ( The body is even made my Lotus ). In the meantime the big three ( or whomever is left) can license their tech sell some cars that people will buy and maybe buy themselves some time to develop their own technology. Ironically, Ford best chance in the electric area was an asset they sold off 3 or 4 years ago ( http://www.think.no/ ). This Norwegian company (formerly owned by Ford) will be selling electric vehicles next year in the US and they look very promising albeit a little small.
- teethandeyes, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1I love Detroit, and am so happy I grew up in the area. However, I had to move. The economic situation in the D is hopeless. I makes me sad.
- stumper, on 06/30/2008, -5/+4Kick out the unions, and accept a fair wage based on individual performance. Only then, will I consider purchasing another American car (I currently own a Ford and a Dodge, so don't even...). The unions running Detroit would rather put the American car industry out of business, instead of realigning employee compensation with the real world.
- Vanor, on 06/30/2008, -1/+6Ya know, I'm pretty sure the reason why it's not the United States of the USSR today is because instead of getting angy and overthrowing our government (which is what Marx predicted would happen in the 20th century), we instead got together to use collective bargaining to demand better wages. I'm not saying it's without its faults, but, it was something that was needed for its time, and in some places still is. The alternative was to utlimately lash out at our government and society. In the end, instead of trying to overthrow it, we strove to reach balance with it, an admirable and completely rational and reasonable line of thinking in a time that most of us would consider to be anything but. Nevermind that the businesses got to have the cops come and beat people to death back then. But I'm sure you probably aren't familar with the concept of 10 year olds working in mines without rebreathers, either.
Some of you people need to get this stupid, infantile notion of "You want more money get a better job." out of your head. For a lot of people there are no better jobs. They're being outsourced. I'm not saying that every job needs a union, nor do people working at McDonalds need to be making a million dollars a year, but....
If everyone on Earth was a scientist or a businessman, or government officials, who would repair the houses, build the skyscrapers, plant the seeds, work the farms, take care of the elderly and infirm, work the assembly line, run the registers, dig the ditches, pave the roads....you get the idea.
Somebody HAS to do the hard work. It's not a matter of choice. I do dishes at a nursing home, I have no car, I don't have to pay any bills save for my phone/internet, and I live with my parents, who I help with the bills. What I make is enough to take care of that and have a good amount leftover for myself (just over six dollars), but if I had a car, had to pay insurance, gas being what it is, a house payment, and all that for myself (obviously, I'm single), I'd be struggling, and trust me, housing around here is jacked up cuz suburbanites from around the country are fleeing here to get away from people of different ethnicities, so the cost of land--even ***** land--is above what it should be.
Job opportunities around here include: Two nursing homes, fast food (four years I spent at the local Pizza Hut, the least degrading fast-food job in town, though that's not saying much), an eletric motor factory, and well, ***** them, because since this is small-town USA, people know people, and if you get hurt on the job because of some ***** they caused through negligence, well, you're ***** six ways to sunday. That's what happened to my aunt out at one of the plants after she hurt her back.
And then, of course, we got NFS. Nuclear Fuel Services. I live like, less than two miles from there. Not in eyeshot, thank god, since I'd rather just act like the place doesn't exist. A few years ago, they tried to do away with the worker's union, AND do away with their health benefits, including their insurance.
Now, no offense, but if I had to work around nuclear-anything, I'd want to be at least assured medical coverage at no cost for potentially exposing myself to radioactivity, as I'm sure a lot of you would, as well. No amount of money will entice you to a job like that unless you know you're taken care of. So, maybe you can understand that the workers were a little more than perturbed when NFS hired scabs to come in and do the work, over people that had put in long years working out there. Fortunately, it finally got worked out, but that's one case where it's good to have a union.
Anyway, that's all I got to say. If there's one thing I've learned in my life, is that nothing is as simple as people try to make it out to be, and no problem is ever truly in black and white, and usually neither is the solution.- nedzeve, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Ah, an educated DIGG user. A rare find.
- stonerider, on 06/30/2008, -1/+1It's not the union's fault that Detroit's facing a bleak future. The UAW did NOT set the policy of foisting gas-guzzling SUV's to American people; the Auto Industry management did. We should be angry at the executives and politicians who encouraged consumption at the expense of conservation. The blame must be laid squarely at the fat pigs not the little guys.
- captancaveman, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1 You are a jerk. Hope you like slave labor cause thats what you deserve.
- Vanor, on 06/30/2008, -1/+6Ya know, I'm pretty sure the reason why it's not the United States of the USSR today is because instead of getting angy and overthrowing our government (which is what Marx predicted would happen in the 20th century), we instead got together to use collective bargaining to demand better wages. I'm not saying it's without its faults, but, it was something that was needed for its time, and in some places still is. The alternative was to utlimately lash out at our government and society. In the end, instead of trying to overthrow it, we strove to reach balance with it, an admirable and completely rational and reasonable line of thinking in a time that most of us would consider to be anything but. Nevermind that the businesses got to have the cops come and beat people to death back then. But I'm sure you probably aren't familar with the concept of 10 year olds working in mines without rebreathers, either.
- bshensky, on 06/30/2008, -1/+5Doods, what's the average age of a Digg user? Now, what's the average age of an automotive executive? Now, heretofore which of their vehicles provide the largest return on their investment here in the USA?
I've watched my (older) family members here in Detroit go shopping for cars here in the last 6 months. Guess what? None of them ever considered hybrids, turbodiesels, variable value displacement, ethanol, or the like. They look at me like I'm some sort of freak when I suggest these options. Instead, swear to $deity, my aunt declined to purchase a Ford Fusion because it's made in Mexico with a Japanese transmission, citing Ford as anti-union! These baby boomers in my family are the same age, and IMO the same mindset, as the Big Three automotive middle-management that make the short- to mid-term marketing and technology decisions for the cars they currently sell.
Detroit's been "dead" before. It's folks like my (older) family members that have been keeping it alive. So, why does Detroit never learn its lessons? Coz it's a bubble unto itself. Sure, the C-level execs appear prepared to make the necessary gambles to compete in a post-petrol economy, but the middle-management underlings haven't a clue about how to execute that vision.
It's sad, and I can't wait to get out of the 313. - CHANNELOCK, on 06/30/2008, -2/+0I guess steel and engines are the last American ***** to go ,I'm sure China or India will buy /loot GM industrial machinery resemble them in their own countries.America is on the ropes but they still cant take the last export ...food
- nonymous666, on 06/30/2008, -0/+3Food? The dead honey bees are taking that.
- YodaJones, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2Your car will be eating your food soon enough as the government lets it become Ethanol.
- CHANNELOCK, on 06/30/2008, -1/+0Pessimism is an American trait...they cant take that!
- gridbread, on 06/30/2008, -3/+3It's very hard to find a job in Michigan.
- YodaJones, on 06/30/2008, -2/+2So move.
- stonerider, on 06/30/2008, -0/+1It's not as easy as you think. I've moved six times in my short life and every time I move, there's been complications. If you haven't experienced "relocation" yourself, please have a heart. Especially for people who may have been laid off due to mismanagement/corruption/Bush/Cheney.
- YodaJones, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2I've moved all over the world many times. Just do it.
- YodaJones, on 06/30/2008, -2/+2So move.
- 2voc, on 06/30/2008, -0/+5I grew up in the 70's in a town just outside of Detroit that was heavily reliant upon the automobile industry. My father had a Mercedes and received death threats from lineworks, so he had to hide that car in the garage and buy piece of crap Lincoln Towncar just to keep the the autoworkers from setting our house on fire.
The difference in driving the two cars was incredible. I got in an accident in that Lincoln, I think my father did a backflip and thanked me for getting rid of that piece of garbage that day. - 2voc, on 06/30/2008, -2/+2I grew up in the 70's in a town just outside of Detroit that was heavily reliant upon the automobile industry. My father had a Mercedes and received death threats from lineworkers, so he had to hide that car in the garage and buy piece of crap Lincoln Towncar just to keep the the autoworkers from setting our house on fire.
The difference in driving the two cars was incredible. I got in an accident in that Lincoln, I think my father did a backflip and thanked me for getting rid of that piece of garbage that day. - Treoinmypocket, on 06/30/2008, -4/+9Not an answer but Detroit does have one problem the Japanese don't.
Unions.
I will only bring up Japan because I can't speak to the other countries' models. The Japanese auto industry has been heavily subsidized since the beginning and was essentially launched by the Korean War need (by the US military) for trucks. These were built in Japan.
More importantly Japans unions are company unions not industry unions as in the West. They also include membership from all levels of the company. The net result of that is unions that favor the company's success in order to effect a gradual increase in wages. That is a big difference vs Detroit where unions are protectionist of the worker over the company.
My point is the unions in Detroit have become a burden and an obstacle to Detroit's evolutions. Retooling is expensive and when margins are low due to the relative high cost of the work force a company will choose low cost options over investing heavily in R&D.
American auto workers have contributed greatly to the problems Detroit has. I don't advocate they go away but rather that they evolve. It is a two-way street and Detroit management would have to buy into a reorganized union structure as well.- nedzeve, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2If US manufacturers treated their employees like the Japanese makers, then perhaps they wouldn't need to unionize.
- eryximachus, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2A casual stroll through most of Americana should indicate that the "workers" of yesterday lived quite well compared to today.
Come to NYC someday. Slum tenaments for the supposed poorest of the poor rent for $2000 or more per month. Simple brick townhouses in Brooklyn, originally built for factory workers, now cost $1,500,000 easily.
Me thinks you haven't actually considered how nice the workers in the past actually had it. Now, they have jobs at all and live on the public tit. Yay.
- eryximachus, on 06/30/2008, -1/+2A casual stroll through most of Americana should indicate that the "workers" of yesterday lived quite well compared to today.
- stonerider, on 06/30/2008, -2/+2Why are you making a scapegoat out of the poor unions? In America, unions of every shape/color/creed/membership have been dying a slow death. If we had a strong union in UAW with real backbone, the current hardship could have been prevented. Instead, we have a strong MANAGEMENT who can bend the union's will with ease. This the REAL cause. Think about: weak union, weak auto industry--strong management, weak auto industry. What say you?
- tony23, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1Can you explain exactly how the UNION could have done anything?
Higher wages? More benefits? Less layoffs? All of these would have prevented the "current hardship"?
- tony23, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1Can you explain exactly how the UNION could have done anything?
- nedzeve, on 06/30/2008, -0/+2If US manufacturers treated their employees like the Japanese makers, then perhaps they wouldn't need to unionize.
- jregenstein, on 06/30/2008, -4/+4I think to fix things they should raise taxes and bow to the unions more. Wait a minute, they have already done that! Maybe bigger government beholden to the Unions levying high taxes isn't the way to go.
- stonerider, on 06/30/2008, -2/+1What "bigger government beholden to the Unions levying high taxes"? Do you seriously believe Bush/Cheney/Exxon/Haliburton gang have to answer to "the Unions"? Do you seriously think that high taxes are due to the Unions? Compare our current state of being with the European's. They have strong unions; we don't. They enjoy health/retirement/vacation benefits that we can only dream about. The problem in the US is the huge gap between the haves and the havenots. If we had strong unions, the management and the politicians would have listened to the people.
- tony23, on 07/01/2008, -0/+1Compare the average living conditions in the US to the average conditions in Europe before you start on the other comparisons.
- stonerider, on 06/30/2008, -2/+1What "bigger government beholden to the Unions levying high taxes"? Do you seriously believe Bush/Cheney/Exxon/Haliburton gang have to answer to "the Unions"? Do you seriously think that high taxes are due to the Unions? Compare our current state of being with the European's. They have strong unions; we don't. They enjoy health/retirement/vacation benefits that we can only dream about. The problem in the US is the huge gap between the haves and the havenots. If we had strong unions, the management and the politicians would have listened to the people.
- IronDonut, on 06/30/2008, -1/+5How is it that an industry can make the same exact mistake twice in the space of 30 years. The American automakers suffered though a very similar set of circumstances in the 1970s.
1970s: US Makers made huge poor quality gas guzzlers while the imports were better made and more fuel eff.
2000s: US Makers made huge poor quality gas guzzlers while the imports are better made and more fuel eff.
With that said I'd still like a Corvette Z06. That is one sexy machine. -
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