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388 Comments
- mentallyinhell, on 06/21/2009, -49/+214They're using money with actual value? These madmen must be arrested.
- dagr8tim, on 06/21/2009, -15/+123Correct me if I'm wrong. But wouldn't that be bartering, and since when has that been illegal? You are traiding goods and services for shiny disks of metal that are not connected with US currency. The only issue may be the taxation.
- Striker101, on 06/21/2009, -37/+112FTA: The charges leveled against them instead involve fraud and conspiracy. The government contends Liberty Dollars were in essence a means of fooling customers into thinking the coins were worth more than they truly were.
Now think a second about that one! WHO is peddling worth-less coins for more than they're worth? So if the defendants lose, that would be case history for them to sue the Fed for holding greenbacks for more than they're worth! - CrazedLeper, on 06/21/2009, -67/+140Crushing competition is a criminal act. The gov't is showing that it has, in fact, become little more than a criminal enterprise.
- GTKarber, on 06/21/2009, -23/+86First of all, this was not a legitimate currency. It was a scam. Liberty Mint made the coins for $15 and sold them for $18 to people who then sold them for $20. It's so ridiculous they claim it's "inflation proof" because it's pegged at a dollar value.
These guys weren't creating an alternative currency, they were minting an alternative way to represent American dollars. That's obviously illegal. I couldn't Photoshop my own alternative twenty-dollar bill and sell it for $18 to someone who gave it to other people for $20--okay, sure, they're accepted at like four stores...until those stores decide to stop accepting them, and Liberty Mint goes under, and then all that currency is useless.
People talk about how only money based on gold or silver has value, which is just dumb, because gold and silver don't have any real value because they're just shiny metals. (And, even if you support a currency based on gold or silver: that's not what this was: this currency did not fluctuate in value with the price of these metals.) In contrast, the United States government has value, because it has guns and laws and will probably be around for the next couple years. You can't say the same for this fly-by-night operation. - AaronCo, on 06/21/2009, -16/+74The problem here is that by selling metal standard coins for more than the fair value of the metal in the coin, they're guilty of creating money out of thin air... which, as we all know, is something only the fed can do (and get away with).
Claims that they're "inflation proof" is nonsense. They've built inflation into the coin by fixing a monetary value. If the value of the metal decreases (because of dollar strength [hey, it could happen!]) then the coin suffers inflation. That's false advertising. - borez, on 06/21/2009, -21/+63"The value of the metal in Liberty Dollars was almost always less than the dollar amount imprinted on them, the government says. Liberty Dollars bearing an imprint of $20 might only contain $15 worth of silver, for instance."
Well better that then a currency based on absolutely ***** all. - Myztry, on 06/21/2009, -14/+51The problem lays in the fact money was invented solely for the purpose of taxation. The kings could not tax and horde say 20% of produce from the fields without it spoiling and becoming worthless.
Instead they produced and horded tokens which could be horded indefinitely and introduced laws like legal tender where you are required to accept these tokens in order to settle a debt.
Government gains nothing from materials barter which is what liberty coins equate too, with a deemed yet closely equivalent tender value. - DiggMasterJ, on 06/21/2009, -17/+53Printing $20 on the front when in fact the value of the coin is $15 is fraud. Saying that the government arrested them because of competition is sensationalist *****.
- WhistlinTom, on 06/21/2009, -19/+54Audit the Fed!!!
- Sogui, on 06/21/2009, -15/+48A dollar is a dollar. It doesn't say "Guarantees one double cheeseburger at McDonalds" on the front, loss of PPP is not ground for "fraud" against the dollar.
However when your "liberty dollar" has a $20 sign embedded onto it, but the market value is only $15. The customer might not be sure how much silver is contained in the dollar or be aware of the fluctuating prices.
To say "Here's $20 liberty dollar" that is in-fact only worth $15, would be grounds for these charges.
But don't let the facts get in the way, THE GOVERNMENTS OUT TO GET YOU! - easternguy, on 06/21/2009, -7/+39"Though no Liberty Dollar is a strict copy of U.S. currency, the government does make note of some resemblances.
The use of the dollar sign is suspect since it is the universal symbol for the U.S. dollar, the indictment says."
WTF? I'm Canadian, and we certainly use $. As does Australia. And I think several dozen (hundred?) other countries. "universal symbol for the US dollar?" How incredibly pretentious, short-sighted, and plain wrong. $ does *not* imply US currency, period, except to Americans who don't realize there is a world out there.
That's why you see USD, CAD, AUD and so forth, to be specific which $ you're talking about...
If they had said "is generally assumed to be US dollars (by Americans)," it might be a reasonable argument. But "universal symbol" is total BS.
I generally am leery of gun-toting anti-government types, but these people seem to be responsible and up-front about the mechanics of their liberty dollars, and many people like them. Leave them the hell alone. - Myztry, on 06/21/2009, -1/+30I bet you $5 Australian and $4 Hong Kong that you're wrong...
- Suricou, on 06/21/2009, -1/+26It would make more sense to print them with their weight.
But then the manufacturer couldn't charge such a high markup. - borez, on 06/21/2009, -6/+30I wonder if it's possible to pull a government up on monopoly charges.
- StonerThomas, on 06/21/2009, -2/+25Last I checked "countefeit" implies it's pretending to be a US dollar. This wasn't. It was supposed to be an entirely separate currency.
- hiphoc, on 06/21/2009, -2/+24Ummm, have you read what the the Patriot Act says about barter? Fun times.
`Sec. 310. Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
`(a) IN GENERAL- The Financial Crimes Enforcement Network established by order of the Secretary of the Treasury (Treasury Order Numbered 105-08, in this section referred to as `FinCEN') on April 25, 1990, shall be a bureau in the Department of the Treasury.
(F) Assist Federal, State, local, and foreign law enforcement and regulatory authorities in combatting the use of informal, nonbank networks and payment and BARTER SYSTEM mechanisms that permit the transfer of funds or the equivalent of funds without records and without compliance with criminal and tax laws. - clip9, on 06/21/2009, -5/+26I like the idea of liberty dollars.. but why do they have a real dollar value printed on them? The value of the liberty dollar (in real dollars) should change with price of silver/copper/gold.
- Myztry, on 06/21/2009, -0/+20It's not legal tender. You can barter them but you can not be required to accept the liberty coins.
- mbradbury, on 06/21/2009, -9/+28So is printing $20 on a piece of cotton
- Waiting2awake, on 06/21/2009, -5/+23Except that there is a market for it always... What will you give me for this little piece of gold? We'd reach a price at close to market value - whenever, where ever.
Now, what would you give me for a Czechoslovak koruna?
Gold will have value - paper, will have promises. - Waiting2awake, on 06/21/2009, -0/+16They can counterfeit it with what? It will still have to have gold in it, and thus will still have an intrinsic value.
The only issue is that it takes the ability to regulate, and thus tax, from the federal government. - PeppermintPig, on 06/21/2009, -2/+17jwkpiano1: Canada has dollars. Are they trying to counterfeit US currency??
Actually, if you want to get technical, the Federal Reserve Note is a counterfeit of the USD. In fact, the FRN isn't even a note, because a NOTE is at least supposed to be a promise to pay, like an IOU.
Liberty Dollar comes in silver and gold specie, and used to come in Certificates before the government stole their reserves. The difference between a certificate and a note is that the certificate certifies (surprise) that X amount of whatever the certificate lists is held somewhere and that the certificate can be exchanged for hard currency. - CrazyEddie041, on 06/21/2009, -1/+16Minting alternative currency is perfectly legal; it's only criminal when it is posing as legal US dollars.
- rmxz, on 06/21/2009, -4/+19"Can you imagine what kind of economic chaos would be created if 10-15 different "competitive" currencies were circulating around the U.S. in competition with the dollar?"
I'd have thought that with the wondrous efficiencies of markets, exchanges would quickly spring up that would make sure each of these currencies were fairly valued.
Whether I'm being sarcastic not probably depends on the reader's own point of view. - Halsfield, on 06/21/2009, -5/+20Gold, silver, copper, etc are not just shiny metals. They have value based on their use in electronics and other applications as well. Even if we didn't value them like raccoons for their shininess and prettiness they would still have a very high value in a barter based economy due to them being needed in high-end electronics production (especially in things like the space program/air-force/etc).
This was a scam but those metals have value in today's society past their value for what they look like. - Waiting2awake, on 06/21/2009, -3/+17Pssst , the map isn't the road. With respect, I think you are confusing intrinsic value with what people label the value as.
For instance, a rug marked for sale at $20, can be haggled down to $15 - what is the value of the rug?
Answer - whatever someone else is willing to pay for it.
What is the value of a dollar? Whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
So you may ask, what makes a liberty dollar any different? Nothing, but because they have the precious metal in there, there will always be a "need" for what it processes, and thus a market. Not so with any fiat currency. The value of fiat currency is the value of the ongoing taxation, and the second it looks like the taxation can not meet its future goals, or that the government is going to dissolve(and thus not be able to tax its slaves...errr....citizens) the value of the currency dissolves as well. - dagnome1984, on 06/21/2009, -2/+16". If the value of the metal decreases (because of dollar strength [hey, it could happen!]) then the coin suffers inflation."
If that were the case the purchasing power of the coin would remain the same. Only the nominal value would change relative to the U.S dollar. - Waiting2awake, on 06/21/2009, -0/+13The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.
H. L. Mencken - JordanTW90, on 06/21/2009, -5/+18Oh really, jwkpiano1? Do some reading...
Article I, Section 8, Clause 5: The Congress shall have Power…To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures.
Article I, Section 10, Clause 1: No State shall…coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debt.
The Constitution doesn't prohibit the government from expansion directly, instead it tells the government what it CAN do, anything outside those bounds are unlawful and unconstitutional. - forand, on 06/21/2009, -12/+25They are using money with a value based on their own choosing which may or may not reflect the true going rate of gold, silver, or copper. As indicated in the first few paragraphs of the article business were making out like bandits by hoarding the coinage and selling it for legal tender when the price of gold, silver, or coper to be high enough. It is a scam to milk money from people stupid enough to think that a hunk of metal with a number written on it is going to be worth the same amount of food before and after an economic collapse.
- JDoorjam, on 06/21/2009, -3/+16Eh, most of their value is in their shininess, as they've been regarded as precious metals for thousands of years before modern electronic applications. Gold and silver have been used as currencies for millennia because they're universally coveted, not because there are trace amounts in your iPod.
- inactive, on 06/21/2009, -0/+12Yes.
The problem in the USA is that no one can do anything without making it political. - JDoorjam, on 06/21/2009, -2/+14RTFA. There's no accusation of counterfeiting.
- franklymister, on 06/21/2009, -1/+13Looks like you failed to read the article.
The criminal charges were related to fraud and counterfeiting, based on the fact that the "$20" coin did not actually contain $20 worth of silver (fraud), and that they were using the dollar sign and making the coins look like legitimate US currency (counterfeiting).
If they had been trading actual silver coins and representing them as their actual value (and without trying to represent them as US currency), it would be a different story. - irinotecan, on 06/21/2009, -7/+18I think everyone here (including the government) misses an important point: The Liberty "Dollar" was never designed to be an even exchange for the U.S. Dollar, just like the Canadian Dollar is not equivalent to the U.S. Dollar. Just like you can get more Canadian or Australian dollars (usually) for the price of an American dollar, so you could (usually) for the Liberty dollar. So long as everyone involved understood this (and it seems everyone did), there is no fraud, and there is no counterfeiting. As long as people were willing to accept the Liberty dollar as valuable for buying and selling goods, it has legal worth.
I would say that there is a good chance they would be acquitted, as they have the law on their side here, but then they will be tried by a jury that will likely consist of the same kind of people that just charged $80,000 per song for copyright infringement... - haentz, on 06/21/2009, -1/+12Well, here in Germany they have local "currencies" at several cities. They are exchanged between participating merchants and customers for goods and services just like official money. I think it's not meant to be a real alternative to the Euro but mostly meant to support the local industry, farmers and stuff...
- mikebrinkman, on 06/21/2009, -9/+20Even the best governments are simply awful.
- Hamletlere, on 06/21/2009, -4/+15So why is it, when I buy a gold or silver coin from the US Mint, it has a dollar value embossed on it? And typically, an extremely low dollar value (as in, a coin that sells for $1000 has a value of "Twenty Dollars" embossed on it).
How is it less "misleading" when the US Government does it? - Waiting2awake, on 06/21/2009, -7/+17You mean back when the US was under a sane monetary policy?
- shig, on 06/21/2009, -0/+10Truth is that we already have that sort of competition in money.
Smokers might remember Camel Cash, or Marlboro Miles. Regular shoppers might buy gift cards which is itself a form of currency swapping. Look around and you'll find all sorts of similar programs. Old head Canadians might remember Canadian Tire money.
One thing you won't remember is the financial chaos these monies never caused. - Balanced, on 06/21/2009, -4/+14The gold market still requires a certain level of 'civilization' to be valuable. If you're starving and have 10 pounds of gold, you might be willing to trade it for a very small amount of food.
- inactive, on 06/21/2009, -3/+13clueless.
- Myztry, on 06/21/2009, -1/+11Both of those get traded within the borders of the United States...
- INTERNETMASTER, on 06/21/2009, -13/+22I bought my banjo AND my confederate battle flag with liberty bucks. screw you, uncle sam!
- LenBaird, on 06/21/2009, -4/+13They aren't claiming it is a federal reserve note, or legal tender. Secondly, the banks counterfeit money. They produce pieces of paper and computer entries, which the government forces us to accept (legal tender laws) as if they had real value.
- DevilInPgh, on 06/21/2009, -2/+11Wow, for a lot of people who like to talk about the Constitution, they sure like to disregard some parts of it, such as this:
Article I, Section 8: "The Congress shall have power...to coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures." - Hamletlere, on 06/21/2009, -0/+9@Gusbob: Isn't the "intrinsic value" of something what someone is willing to give in exchange for that something? If that is the case, how can its "value" when bartering be higher?
- inactive, on 06/21/2009, -0/+9@Suricou
It's conductive, and doesn't tarnish. What use indeed. - inactive, on 06/21/2009, -0/+9Anyone want to use my "Liberty eh Dollars"?
According to 0ceanic, being manufactured in Canada make them legal tender in the States! -
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