What is Digg?166 Comments
- bumbletowne, on 10/11/2007, -1/+94Okay, i've had a couple of professors do this. Susan Johnson, my first english teacher (may she rest in peace), Keran Johnson (my american history post civil war teacher), Dana Kars (my 20th century american lit teacher), and the heinous mr. seqouia (my survey of physics instructor). They all seem to have discovered this magical thing called the in-ter-web. If my biology instructors would do this i would save more like 3 grand a year.
There's nothing like the smell of a 300 dollar collection of dissection diagrams that i "need" for advanced human anotomy, which i "mysteriously" never use in the class (and still ace) and is "mysteriously" published by someone with the same name as my instructor. - growler1, on 10/11/2007, -1/+73As an instructor, I think I can safely say that it's a racket. I've never written a text myself (yet), but it's hard to believe that a 200 page book, no matter the author, no matter the bells and whistles, costs the company 80+ dollars to print. I just can't accept that based upon the evidence I've seen.
Until students and professors alike stand up to what amounts to extortion(a new "edition" every year that rehashes much of the previous volume, but manages to command a new price tag with some key "updates"), academic book publishers are going to continue to put the screws to their captive audience (students).
I think using alternative sources and writing creative commons texts that can be modified to fit individual courses is a great way to fight disproportionate costs. Shape the market into a more student-budget-friendly direction, and the book publishers will follow. - Dysarthria, on 10/11/2007, -0/+48Here's the issue:
Expensive textbooks for required classes outside your major.
I think an Engineer would pay $80 for an excellent Physics textbook that he may refer to for years; but would balk at paying the same price for a book on a poetry book he would use for 16 weeks.
- theinept, on 10/11/2007, -0/+47And the even bigger scam is the editioning of text books every year. I've never seen a new edition that wasn't virtually the same as its predecessor and yet, all of a sudden, my old edition is worthless and cannot be traded in. It's environmentally unsound and it's a scam that preys on people in fragile financial positions.
- reflex768, on 10/11/2007, -0/+27Wish I'd had this guy in college. Even getting all used books would leave me without a few meals each year.
- Bhima, on 10/11/2007, -1/+24This is absolutely criminal, and you left one out: I can't use my older brother's books (who took the course 5 years ago) or my older sister's book (who took the course last year)
- galeninjapan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+19I agree that textbooks are a racket. But, You know what is even worse? When a professor makes you buy a compilation of articles and readings from a copy shop. Those are just as expensive and then you cant sell them back at the end of the semester
- rarson, on 10/11/2007, -0/+19You guys are so silly! Education isn't about learning, it's about making money! Duh.
- drummerbrother, on 10/11/2007, -0/+15This practice is the norm where I study. All the major readings are put online in pdf format, which I usually print off anyway so I can highlight, but it's so much more convenient than freakin text books. I'm halfway through my degree, and I've perhaps bought about 2 books in total so far. Brilliant.
- atdigg, on 10/11/2007, -1/+16Maybe WikBooks http://en.wikibooks.org will be of some use some day, I do believe that just as in software the future for human knowledge is open source.
- gmiley, on 10/11/2007, -0/+13I had a logic course a while back, the prof was pretty cool, i had a previous years edition (somehow a new edition came out a week after I bought my book) he simply went through my books index and wrote the new chapter numbers next to the titles. It was literally the exact same book but the chapters were switched around.
- jayhawk, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12i worked with mcgraw-hill to write a textbook for my students (400+/semester) and it was custom made for my university. i make 50 cents a copy and the bookstore and the publisher rake in about $25. this is a regular textbook, so it can be done on the cheap. if they were selling it nationally, then they'd print way more and have lower printing costs. but, even this price seemed too much if the i am getting so little, so my next textbook is being written online and the bookstore and publisher will get no $$$ from me or my students. i will allow my students to buy a print copy through LULU.com if they want, but i won't take a cut so it will only be about $7 for the printed version.
- chancesarent, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11There's always Textbook torrents.
http://82.103.140.133/ - jayhawk, on 10/11/2007, -1/+12i am writing a textbook for my students using the book module in drupal. i plan to submit the finished copy to wikibooks.
- rglover, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10I would enjoy this quite a bit seeing as how a handful of my professors barely had use the book. The topper is trying to resell something that cost you $150 and only getting $20 when it's in perfect condition.
- s1mph0ny, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9Yeah, the $900/year "average" would have to include part-time students. You can't get under $900, even with intense shopping and used books, assuming 30 credits/year.
- BHSPitMonkey, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8[Citation needed].
- Niffer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8I find that in my liberal elective classes, the use of online articles is very common, usually with nothing more than a $20 book required for reading. Now the engineering classes are another story. Good professors are everywhere, and those who don't write their own books usually have the best interest of the students in mind. Always let them know that their care is appreciated.
- mikeon, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8That's how they make money. This way you can't sell it back to the bookstore since they give the teachers the new edition. Teacher orders new edition and thus there are no used copies of it so you MUST buy the brand new book you never use and when you look at it still in it's shrink wrap 18 weeks later, you curse the damn publishers and your professor.
- quaxon, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7i dunno what kinda school you went to but pretty much every class in my university (upper division courses atleast) you need the book to pass with a grade higher than a C, a lot of what is in books isnt covered by the teacher but is asked on the exams..
- manicallday, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Books in law school are the biggest waste of money ever.
- neptytune, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7I agree textbooks cost too much, but most students don't want to go to the library to photocopy. It takes too much time and money (.10/copy). I photocopied a large number of book.
My issue with the whole thing is the student who says they can't afford them turns around and talks about how they blew $200 on beer for a weekend. Or the one kid who spent his school loan money to trick out his car and said he couldn't afford books or school.
- coheedcollapse, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7My hero! The textbook industry is a shady one. I've talked to a few of my professors that had written their own and their publishers would force them to "update" (which means add a page or two here and there to mess up the page numbers) every year or two. This forces students to buy new edition books at a ridiculous price instead of buying used because the page numbers would be totally screwed up. Not cool.
Glad I'm almost done with this crap. Shelling out hundreds of dollars on books that I rarely use is not a fun thing to do. - Firehed, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7I've bought much longer hardcover books for far less than $80. Hell, about ten million people will be doing just that in about four hours.
Yes, retailers may mark up their merchandise to twice or even three times their COGS - in fact, that's pretty common in nearly every industry. You know what that means? The publishers are gouging the ***** out of the retailers, and, indirectly, the students that need those textbooks. If I can buy some paperbacks for six bucks and not have the retailers lose money on it (and I doubt bookstores can easily use loss leaders nowadays), that means the publisher is charging only a couple bucks, and they're surviving on those margins.
Or, you know, PDF. COGS drops down to effectively zero. They'd still charge sixty bucks for an e-textbook, and they'd DRM the ***** out of it lest make sixty bucks from the entire class of students. It's greed on the publisher's end, and nothing more. - Cmonkey67, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8You're an *****.
- AxeSwinger, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Take a math class or learn to count.
- mighty_mouth, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Interesting. Do you have a source to back up that 5% figure?
- StringyLow, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6My 1905 edition "Physics Fundamentals" book still stands on its own. It cost me 25 cents. And good lord the exercises are numerous and vigorous.
Some topics don't change enough to warrent endless printings. - Bajeda, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Already been done by several profs of mine. This was a particularly sweet one though, he even had podcasts and videos of lectures set up -----> http://www-personal.si.umich.edu/~rfrost/courses/SI110/ Not to mention he is Robert Frost's grandson.
- kazamx, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5I spent about £500 ($1000) a year on books on my 4 year course at Uni on core text books. The sad thing is many of the core books were written by the profs teaching me. Much of the time it felt like they were usng us to increase their income
As they owned the copyright there is no reason not to make PDF available free to students - emjaymj, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5How's that better? You're just mooching off someone who DID let themselves get ripped off in order to get the material they need. If everybody followed your brilliant plan, you'd have nobody to mooch off. Sure, it sucks to pay out the ass for a textbook, but just letting other people pay instead is a despicable way of dealing with it. Pooling with a few friends in the same program to split the cost among you is a way more acceptable way to minimize costs.
- 80hd, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6unfortunately, a degree has become a fashionable thing to have. It seems that in the past, college was for those who were well endowed with intelligence, or simply determined to learn how to best benefit the world.
Now people seem to be all about how best to get a high paying job by adding a schools reputation to their collection of shiny things.
Irony is when these people get beat by the people they are trying to become - money grubbing margin machines. Publishers, property owners of student housing and the schools themselves are making a KILLING.
It gets worse when a prestigious school has low admission standards and difficult courses. Thereby allowing students to try and get overwhelmed, leaving behind a nice pile of money when they leave. - scotticus, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5It depends on the class... if it's freshman or sophomore physics or calculus, a subject which hasn't changed substantially in 50 years, there's no reason to have a new book. Some subjects, like biochemistry, really do need to be updated every year.
Although reading the actual literature is good (I learned a lot that way), for some important and complex subjects, reading original literature can be very challenging, especially for less advanced students... there's a reason we have textbooks. I graduated years ago and I still buy textbooks when I need to learn something outside of my field. - goalieca, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5The only benefit from electronic copies is the search function. Otherwise its a million times worse! I love physical books. Everyone loves physical books.
- s1mph0ny, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Sweet link. Must Seed!
- chrisinsocalif, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6Scan then and upload them to bittorrent. There are books you can download on torrent sites also.
- airwalkery2k, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4I know how this is. I tried to get by just looking up all the assigned articles on either the internet or magazine databases, and I could find a few, but I had to buy it eventually. Some articles were impossible to find.
- Tippis, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Cue "Bah! Kids! Back in my days..." ;)
We used the 6th ed. back when I took calc -- cost me $60. I guess those last couple of punctuation errors took quite a lot of manpower to find. - Vodka23, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4I agree. Its time to ditch published paper text. Its 2007, everybody.
- MonsterZero, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Oh, no doubt. The worse example of this during my college days was the 9th edition print of Thomas and Finney's "Calculus". This is Calculus, a branch of fundamental mathematics almost 2 thousand years in development, with the basic structure of this concrete branch of mathematics formulated somewhat simultaneously by Leibniz and Newton, back in the 18th century. And it takes 9 editions over the span of 20 years of the late 20th century to solidify the modern teaching methods? What a crock of ***** - each edition just changed the color of the some of the plots, rearranged the text somewhat, fixed some of the many errors, and made a bundle. Here is an amazon link to the 8th edition, yes that is $217.40 for a single book: http://www.amazon.com/Calculus-Analytic-Geometry-George-Thomas/dp/0201529297/ref=ed_oe_h/104-2510957-4072710?ie=UTF8&qid=1184997217&sr=8-2
- PedleZelnip, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Just for the record: it's not always up to the instructor to use (or not use) a textbook, both times I've taught at my University the department assigned me a textbook and I had no say whatsoever in what book was to be used or whether or not the book would be optional or not.
- Bajeda, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Yeah you can. I don't think I've gone over $900 in a year once. Looking for good deals on used textbooks is a big help, though I admit I have been lucky getting courses that dont require a ton of books.
- amyfamb7, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Agreed! For my 5 week summer course I paid $100 for a communications book with a code to get in one of those "online classrooms". Bookstores WILL NOT take it back b/c the code that comes with the book has been used and can only be used once. The even better part of this is that once you get in the classroom they have the full text in pdf for you to look at. There went $100 in the garbage.
- jgclark123, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4I guess I was luckier. My Intro to Philosophy course required a compilation of various works. Thankfully, most were by Plato, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard, etc., and I found every one online.
- grakker, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4I went before the Internet, so... Yeah, I spent as much on books as I did on tuition. And that was to a UC school.
- BHSPitMonkey, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Just like high school!
- homesqua, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4take harder classes then lol
- justinprine, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4It is indeed a racket. I work at a business that sells to the education market and see this first hand. Often times it is as simple as a representative from the publisher bribing the instructor with dinner to get them to switch to the new edition of a book. Other times it is a lot of face time and sucking up to the self important professors. The industry is shady at best. We can only hope that open material that is updated by the community will replace this model.
During one talk I had with a publisher's rep I asked why digital versions of the book were not distributed with every book they sell, and further why the books were not available as just a download for a fraction of the books cost. A resource that is digital and easily searched is much more useful as reference material. Not to mention that it is more environmentally sound. The rep completely completely blew me off and acted as the music/movie industry did to the idea of digital sales. If they want to stay in business they need to come up with an iTunes store equivalent quickly or greed will be their demise. - amyfamb7, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4I've had a few professors stop using textbooks and just photocopying stuff for us to use in class. The whole class liked the fact that we didn't have to buy the $552 book for the 5 week course and then only get maybe $100 back for it IF the book store would take it back
- srange98, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Southern Illinois University @ Edwardsville has a rental program. Pick them up before the semester starts, turn them in when it's over. How is this such a difficult idea to master? Textbooks are such a monster rip off designed to inflate your already over-paid professor's pockets.
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