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208 Comments
- Szandor, on 10/12/2007, -15/+94"Put another way, if you're having economic problems now, you would have anyway. It's part of nature. Not everyone has the genetic fortitude to survive. That's life."
Let me guess:
You are white, grew up in at least a middle-class home, and were able to attend college without really worrying about paying for it.
If that's the case, you can take your "genetic fortitude" and go ***** yourself. - schlurp, on 10/12/2007, -16/+71Regarding your first point it might surprise you to learn that 1973 was in fact not in the mid-60s. And your link talks about Ms.+ Mr. average (where Ms. average was much less likely to work in the 60s) while Stein is talking about the average wage-receiving worker.
Regarding your second point, if wealthy people get the money instead of poor people it actually means less spending since poor people spend basically 100% of their incomes. That's why it's obvious tha the Bush tax cuts were not aimed at stimulating the economy by increasing consumer spending as he claimed. - mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -16/+70"You need do no more than walk around and look at all the beautiful houses being built and bought in every city in this country. The USA is doing just fine despite the fear mongering the left would have us believe so they can overturn the political balance to their favor."
You, sir, make me sick. You think it's OK that the richest people in the country are continually getting wealthier, while the poorest are getting poorer? You think that it's a sign of a healthy nation when manufacturing is on the brink of collapse? The dollar is not only falling in value, but there are many, many out there considering switching their cash reserves and international currency standards to Euros (OPEC and Chine as prime examples)?
The US is on the brink. A few million people control the vast majority of all the assets in the nation and if/when the economy does collapse, where does that leave the rest of us? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+55$10 million Bat Mitzvah?
Well, considering I think each of the kids on "Super Sweet 16" deserve to be herded into concentration camps and worked to death making clock radios for child molesters in prison... I think a $10 million batmitvah is disgusting and an example of a greedy bastard who probably cheats on his taxes to begin with. He probably invited clients so he could write the whole thing off. Launch him into the sun. - nickv, on 10/12/2007, -4/+45@DAGONthehauge:
Ok, never thought I'd defend the US but I just gotta respond to that post as an American in New York. You sound just as close minded as the Americans you trash. I've been to the Netherlands. I live in New York.
I know the Netherlands is a little country, so it might be hard to understand that you can't write off ALL of America because of some parts of it. I'm disgusted by shows like "The Real Housewives of Orange County" and Paris Hilton and Bush. Probably MORE than you since I deal they come from the US.
At the same time, there are tons of amazing places in the US that contribute to society (and the world as a whole.) From research institutions, medical instutitons, technology innovations (the Internet anyone?), and a large mass of people who are capable of making a difference (and try!) Sure, the country's leadership as lost its way... that's the problem with democracies... but it was a pretty good place under Clinton and it seems like Americans are waking up from this 6 year drunken nightmare.
So come on.. Don't be an idiot and make comments like, "I would be terrified to live or even visit the US and leave my snug, safe environment in the netherlands." You sound just as misinformed as any "American." Trust me, New York City kicks Amsterdam's ass - CheezIt9109, on 10/12/2007, -4/+42I'm in a similar situation. The kicker is: If you make less, you get a free ride. If you make more, you can pay for it with ease. Where's the middle class? Completely screwed.
My parents are now in debt, so I'm paying my way through grad school.
By going into debt. - doyadigg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+38Stein isn't saying America is bad because there are rich and poor people. He's saying things are bad because we don't create anything. Buying and selling commodities and generating paper wealth won't last us forever.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+39"A few million people control the vast majority of all the assets in the nation and if/when the economy does collapse, where does that leave the rest of us?"
Stalking the few million having assets with pitchforks and torches.
You right wingers should pay attention when Ben Stein says the distribution of wealth is getting one-sided. He speaks for a lot of influential people. Okay, he's not Greenspan, but if he says do something please keep in mind he's been an adviser to three presidents. All three of whom were smarter than the one we have now, which isn't saying much. But at least they were smart enough to know who to listen to.
Sooner or later squeezing equity without creating any value is going to lead to big trouble. You might want to start fortifying the country club because that's where you'll be making your last stand. - Murdats, on 10/12/2007, -1/+32yes because the more money spent on something means more love
those poor people dont spend much because they obviously dont love their kids $10 million worth - jadenguy, on 10/12/2007, -7/+38Holy crap, since when is Bein Stein the Left? He totally reported Bueller to the Man. Sounds like facism to me.
- airship, on 10/12/2007, -0/+29Actually, it just points out the fact that Stein is a traditional Conservative. He understands sound fiscal policy, unlike the Neo-Conservatives who run the show now. All they care about is lining their own pockets. Stein realizes that you can't continue to do that and have a sound economy. He believes in getting rich the old-fashioned way - by producing something. He also realizes that workers must be paid a living wage. This isn't altruism - it's the same logic that plantation owners used in not mistreating slaves. They're a valuable asset, and without them you can't prosper. He's an economist, and he knows that Capitalism just doesn't work when you have such a huge imbalance in the distribution of wealth, especially when the wealthy have produced nothing while accumulating their money.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+33I think the problem is that the Invisible Hand is not infallible - it's possible to cheat the system. It's possible to create situations in which nothing is really actually produced, but lots of money changes hands. Take pyramid schemes, for example. Sure the people on the bottom get screwed, but it earns lots of money for the people on top. Should we allow them because people can make money from them? I really wish economists would quit acting like their theories are perfect, unflawed, laws of the universe.
- daRoach, on 10/12/2007, -2/+29You missed the point, the "Terrifically Broken" economy being referenced is one that has been split in two, the rich person's and everyone else's. The man who wants the article written doesn't want Ben to complain about the rich person's. The people in power are not trying to solve any problems for the lower economy. The sad truth is that the only economic problem the rich people in power want to combat is inflation. This would cause their vast amounts of money to be worth less. The advice they should be giving is for people to be saving money right now, instead of saying how the economy is healthy so go spend spend spend. This does not help to strengthen the economy or keep people working when jobs are being outsourced and the money is being funneled places other than back into the hands of hard workers.
- omatsei, on 10/12/2007, -16/+39@Szandor: I disagree with many of his arguments, except one. Stop worrying about how other people live and worry about yourself. Stop watching "My Super Sweet 16" and "Pimp My Ride". Here's my 3 step process to living a good life:
Step 1. Stop worrying about what "rich people" do, and start worrying about your own life.
Step 2. If you examine yourself and find that you're jealous of the wealthy, then take a long hard look in the mirror, figure out what the country needs in terms of professions, and start studying. Take a cut in pay to get into the industry if you must, because it'll be worth it in the long run.
Step 3. Once you figure out what career you're going to have, work your ass off to make it the best career you possibly can. When you accomplish this, you will no longer have to watch TV to see what the rich people are doing, because you'll be one of them. - kd1s, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24In 1973 my parents bought their first home for $20,000. It was roughly 1000 sq. feet of house, sitting on a couple thousand sq. feet of land. Their mortgage was around $150 a month. They always had new cars, etc. Their annual income was less than $30K.
Here I am in 2007, my income is twice what theirs was yet there's no way in hell I could afford a home here. It is the prime reason that I'm considering moving south. $300K for a run down house is not my idea of affordable, but $130K would be.
But here's what gets me, my parents annual income was only 60% greater than the value of the house.
In my case, my income is only 20% of the value of a home. ***** up isn't it? It's been totally inverted. - chicagobiker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+24@mrfoos: "You need do no more than walk around and look at all the beautiful houses being built and bought in every city in this country. The USA is doing just fine despite the fear mongering the left would have us believe so they can overturn the political balance to their favor"
Yeah, they're being bought and paid for on credit the borrowers can't afford in the first place and the tip of that iceberg is melting right now.
New Century Financial Corp went belly-up yesterday, they're the nations biggest lender to these fools who are buying half million dollar homes and paying $800 a month interest only back in the hopes of just selling the things for a million in 5 years. The first round of those who bought in 2003 are stuck with $50k balloons they can't sell.
New Century is going to be asking 40 million Americans to get the hell out of their homes or pay them off in full right now.
America is not fine. We don't actually do anything here anymore other than consume and mostly consume on credit. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+23"Ben Stein is a writer, actor, economist, and lawyer living in Beverly Hills and Malibu. He also writes "Ben Stein's Diary" for every issue of The American Spectator's monthly print edition. You can now subscribe to Ben Stein's Diary for just $1.95 per month. Click here to subscribe. And to subscribe to the full magazine, click here. "
After reading that depressing article, that last paragraph makes me laugh - dotorg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19stupidverizon:
What does your parents making $120k a year have to do with you going to a good private university? Unless your parents are particularly bad at math, and don't understand basic economics, they should NOT be paying for your college at that income level.
Its easy to get financial aid and student loans to go to college, its impossible to finance retirement. Its always struck me as strange that people don't seem to understand the huge problem it causes in the long term if parents pay a hundred grand for a child's education, unless their income is so high their retirement is fully funded before paying that tuition. That hundred grand you could've financed could be ten years' worth of living expenses at retirement or more!
If you want to go to a "great private school", do it yourself. You're doing your parents a disservice letting them pay for it and odds are it'll cost you more supporting them in 30 years. But even more importantly, have a real conversation with yourself about what you expect to get out of a $120k education. Because I'll give you a tip: for 99% of students, there is no difference between going to a state school and Harvard, because the fields they go into aren't ones where the name or networking at a school like Harvard are useful. $30k for a state school and $30k for a masters will get you a LOT farther on half the money.
People need to be smart about money across the board. Spend less than they earn, don't waste it on paying premiums for things they don't need. Six figure college educations are an example of one of those! - bolerobell, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17Yeah, things must be pretty bad (or terrifically broken) for Ben Stein to come off sounding like a liberal.
- dukrous, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15I think everyone missed the point of the article, which is clearly in Ben's last paragraph. That even with the hardship present in many poor communities, people still believe in this nation more than those living in opulent luxury.
- bemenaker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16@zique, spending your money does not cause inflation. The devaluing of money causes inflation.
Ben Stein, if you are going to keep writing sensible pieces like this, will you run for President? I know you were a speech writer for Nixon, and we won't hold that against you. The breath of fresh air and sensibility like this would be a welcome change for this country.
@MrFoos, if you think all the new housing going up everywhere is a good thing, you need to do a little more research on the state of the economy, and all the collapsing loans everywhere, The housing market is about to go through one hell of a panic. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20"You know, there are still places in the world unbesmirched by capitalisms evil but you'd better hurry up and admire because they're going away."
Oh, stop. Our way or the highway and free markets rewl. Which part of Alabama are you from, anyway?
The facts are countries with a more balanced economic approach between corporate interests and the peasantry are, overall, out-performing us. Canada, Europe, many countries in South America. The times America has shown the most economic vigor were times when there was a balance between the interests of the corporation and those of the individual. Too much one way or the other, bad things happen.
Our system works best when government sets standards for the marketplace, then lets business compete for market share. Game theory...maybe that rings a bell. The internet is the last good example I can think of. Government started it, then turned it over to a competitive market. Now threatened by balkanization. A healthy market also requires the government to make sure the market stays competitive by enforcing fair dealing and anti-trust. Capitalism unchecked will usually end like a game of Monopoly, with wealth concentrated in a few hands. Just as bad as pure socialism, which is a myth. - polyGone, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16Launch him into the sun, indeed.
- dracflamloc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13It might also help if you understood the difference between MEAN and MEDIAN.
...
Also understand that the gauge for inflation doesn't exactly stay the same, nor is it very accurate since it doesn't consider many other factors. - TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17We have so many ignorant people on here that absolutely hate capitalism. Its ridiculous.
Capitalism does not constitute as greed. - Cert21, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18@mrfoos
It's interesting but not surprising that you'd use this opportunity to spout about leftist propaganda. Ben Stein is a staunch Republican. Does that change the validity of his article? - corneillepoe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12The rich only pay more in dollar amount, not in actual percentage of income. They take in vast amounts of wealth not considered taxable, thanks to multitudes of loopholes. The poor and middle class literally spend their entire income just to live then have nothing left over to squirrel away in tax shelters and offshore accounts, and thus they pay more in taxes as a percent of total income than any rich person with even a dumb tax attorney. Tax all income over 250k at 50%, period, no loopholes, no exceptions. Triple the "death tax". Don't even bother taxing anyone who earns under that. Instant universal health care. Instant surplus. Byebye deficits. Let the wealthy pay for the privilege of their wealth and security in taxes if they aren't willing to pay it in wages to their employees. So they'll be less rich. Hardly a tragedy. Less rich is still a lot better than being not rich. Definitely a lot better than what happens historically when the underclasses get sick of being exploited.
- SteelChicken, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15"I mean why DO we have 20 million illegal aliens in this country? It isn't because our economy sucks or that there isn't opportunity."
because they can get free health care, free education for their kids, better jobs and little to no fear of trouble with the law for minor offenses.
oh and they pay much less in taxes then citizens. why WOULDN'T they come here? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -38/+48Reading all this I am convinced US society is sick. It's a sick vicious, social darwinist society, based on collective contempt and exploitation. And the majority of you want it that way. You do not want a harmonious society. You all want you guns, live in a McMansion in the full knowledge you are morally and financially bankrupt with a sizeable majority starving like rats in the slums. You want hyper-rich Paris Hilton-style. You want to toil in three jobs and you want to send off your poor neighbours children to plunder thirdworld nations for oil - with you driving a Cherokee.
Americans are simply too indoctrinated to want anything else. Or they'd realise that most western world nations have it better, grosso modo. Me, I would be terrified to live or even visit the US and leave my snug, safe environment in the netherlands. About everything is better, safer and more efficient here. America is not a good country to live. It has become a nightmare.
But hey, that's what you all want. If you wouldn't you americans would have the balls to change the political system. In a better managed US "socialism" wouldn't be a dirty word. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13The more you tax the rich... The more they'll hide their assets and not pay taxes. I said earlier, I bet the $10million Bat Mitzvah guy wrote it off on his taxes as a business expense. Don't increase taxes for the honest, close the loopholes for the slime. Simplify the tax law!
Leaving the burden, again, on the middle class. - dashjackson, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13@ 7levels: It's easy to be philanthropic when you can give away 95% of everything you own and still live in luxury that the rest of us will never attain.
- ryllharu, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12The difference is when Bill and Melinda Gates hold a $10 Million party, they usually get 3 times as much money back from the guests for charity.
http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm
Sorry for the spam, but this is what the rich *should* be doing with their money. Investing it for the betterment of all mankind, not just their spoiled daughter, flipping a multi-million dollar home, or doubling their money with hedge funds. People like Warren Buffett should be hailed as the truly upper class in America, they have enough class to give back to benefit the human species. - spamly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@DAGONthehauge: Please don't base your views of the entire US based on what you read on DIGG or see on TV. I've been to the netherlands and agree that it is a beautiful place. I can say that from first hand knowledge. I can also say from first hand knowledge that your netherlands is not all too different than my US. Funny that you don't read that in any papers.
Would you be a little offended if people judged your country on the bad aspects of a certain famous red light district?
The simple and unfortunate truth is that what you typically hear about through the media are the bad events in the world. They tend to leave out the fuzzy, warm stuff. Go figure. - stupidverizon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Then again after some thinking I suppose the Forbes article can actually strengthen his point. It's probably safe to assume the % of working family women in the 1960's and 1990's are far lower than today's. (http://humanresources.about.com/od/worklifebalance/a/business_women.htm). This would attribute to his point of more family members being employed to work in order to survive, and would account for the increased average family income.
It really is sad though. Both my parents work, they make ~120,000 a year, and it's not enough to let me go to a great private university. I fail to see how that's possible, but I'm not suprised in today's screwed up world. A college education for $50,000 are you freakin kidding me? ...Sorry went off on a tangent there.
Edit: Sorry missed the reply to my parent comment. - dogjudge, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12This is a GREAT article by a true Republican Conservative.
If you do not know Ben Stein's background, google it. He is a strong Republican.
Keep in mind that I am a strong liberal Democrat.
You've got to admire Ben for telling it like it is as opposed to coming up with the typical neo-con clap trap. - ubuwalker31, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@stupidverizon
average 1960s vs median 1970s -- your comparing apples to oranges. averages and medians are different concepts, and 10 years makes a hell of a difference. Keep up the good work though, and continue to study hard! - Szandor, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12"I do believe in the trickle down affect. "
Wasn't this economic theory discredited years ago? - iradel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11"At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinborough) had this to say about 'The Fall of The Athenian Republic' some 2,000 years prior:
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
From Bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage." - bolerobell, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10His article is proven false by the oil industry this last week. Prices of crude oil went down $3 a barrel.... yet gasoline went up $0.20 a gallon.
What he doesn't state in that article is that the price of gasoline is not linked to the price of a barrel of oil, but rather to the perception of what market prices will be for that barrel of oil in some future commodities market. Since the price is placed on something so nebulous, the gas companies can use specious arguments to continue to drive gas prices up.
It's the reason why we need to switch the US off of an oil-based economy. People are mad at the oil and gas companies, and it isn't without good reason. - one321, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9So people that are successful and make money can't have an honest opinion about the state of our country (more specifically in this article, economy)? Would you require that everyone who wants to say anything negative about the economy first sell everything they own and live on the streets? That's stupid.
P.S. I don't consider myself a Republican (although I might share some of the same views of the more moderate ones), but that's doesn't mean I have to call everyone not like me an "*****." - FriedTurkey, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Poor people spend money too. Trickle down economics doesn't work. The boom in 90's was after Clinton raised taxes on the rich. People see what they want to see. If it feels good believe it.
- belvedere, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I'd love to be able to buy a house in the Northeast US now for $130k too, but life today isn't nearly what you're parents had back in 1973. That housing price you have trouble with is simply a function of supply and demand. People want to live in cities (especially on the coasts), for starters, because there's plenty of employment in those cities thanks to universities and technology companies. Additionally, the US population just passed 300 million, whereas the population in 1973 was only 211 million.
Also, your $60,000 salary is not double what your parents were earning in 1973. $30k in 1973 would be worth about $140k today according to inflation, so you're still earning maybe half what they were when buying a house then. You are right that housing prices are a problem for the Northeast US, but as I said, there's high demand for living in those areas, so one has to make do. - kaelyiesta, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10free ride my ass. Have you tried it? I went to a 4 year university without any help from family at all. My mom was still on welfare at the time I started. Tuition, books, supplies, boarding, transportation, food... those costs were not magically wished away just because I was living in poverty. I made my way through collage by doing some odd jobs but mostly collage loans. Last I checked, collage loans are not a free ride at all so ***** you.
- dudad, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7You've got to be kidding me.
Ben Stein is very Republican. His words about President Bush about a year ago was that, "He's not a bad man. He just has terrible speech writers." He used to be a speech writer for Ronald Reagan (or was it Nixon? I forget. It was one of them with some scandal.). Perhaps your definition of a leftist differs from mine.
As far as credentials go, he was the Valedictorian at Yale when he graduated with his law degree. He has contributed regularly to many major newspapers.
He also decries his son playing Warcraft all day every day. - aceg1357, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14Yes there are inequities in capitalism and it isn't some perfect system. But it is the best one out there. We have all seen how socialism and communism do in real life. Everyone is equal....equally poor.
- FriedTurkey, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11No the neocons will bring up homosexuals or immigration to distract them.
- UnstableMind, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I am sick of this Republican vs. Democrat *****. They are politicians who have different views than their party and are only part of the two parties because that is the only way *most* of us Americans see them, can get financial support, and get elected. Everyone is either left, middle, or right on any number of issues and like me feel differently (ie, right about one thing and left about another) about most issues.
I do not see 2 sections in congress. I see a corrupt politician on this side and a corrupt politician on the other side that both know how to play the "game". - rhnaccounts, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8The NASDAQ is currently at 2,400. It was at 5,000 7 years ago.
The Dow 30, however, is at an all time high, but is a particularly outdated indicator of overall market performance. - arpad, on 10/12/2007, -13/+19@DAGONthehauge
You know, there are still places in the world unbesmirched by capitalisms evil but you'd better hurry up and admire because they're going away. Basically you have a choice between North Korea and Cuba. China's already thrown in with the Devil and the Soviet Union's only a footnote in history. If you don't hurry there won't be any of those glorious, capitalism-free nations left to idolize. -
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