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92 Comments
- sappro, on 06/01/2009, -5/+34In my short life, I have already come to the conclusion that 99% of the people in the world are constantly trying to find a way to screw over and ***** on everyone else. The rich want to get richer and they don't care if that means that the poor get poorer.
- Sakumi, on 06/01/2009, -1/+21As someone who just paid $160 in overdraft fee's for a total of $10 in charges - I can somewhat agree. I signed the contract, so it's my fault. 16 times the cash for fines is still a bit ***** though...
- fugazied, on 06/01/2009, -0/+14lol you gotta be kidding me, reading 50 pages of legal mumbo jumbo where the bank has covered itself to every possible degree, to get a credit card.
- neilk85, on 06/01/2009, -15/+29WTF!!!! So I sign a contract and break the terms of the contract, I have to pay the penalties that were stipulated in the contract I signed!!!!
You have to be kidding me......great, now I gotta learn how to read so I know what it is that I'm signing. - primatage, on 05/31/2009, -1/+13yeah, and at least 1 million of that is from ME.
- fugazied, on 06/01/2009, -0/+10Best solution, don't use banks, go join a credit union. They won't fleece you like the banks. I am old enough to remember when the time that a bank account didn't have withdrawl fees and they paid you decent interest on your money, regardless of how small your funds are. Now, for many accounts under $5000 you have to pay a monthly account keeping fee (which is *****, since it's all electronic) and they give you 0.005% interest on your money.
- JohnnyDIGGme, on 06/01/2009, -2/+12BREAKING NEWS: Banks want to make money, and they'll screw you to do it.
- kaidovak, on 06/01/2009, -13/+22Here's a novel idea for the "victims": pay your bloody bill on time.
- robertisaar, on 06/01/2009, -1/+9that number is probably slightly higher...
- sappro, on 06/01/2009, -3/+11I don't think the question is whether or not the application of fees is reasonable. I think the question is whether or not the fees themselves are too high. If banks are reaping profit from their fees - which they definitely are - instead of just deterring late payment / overages, then there is an issue.
- kaidovak, on 06/01/2009, -1/+9If the rest of the world had that sense of responsibility, i have a feeling we'd be in much better shape.
- DangerCollie, on 06/01/2009, -2/+10Enjoy it while it lasts. They'll have to find new ways to screw the public after the credit card reform bill goes into effect. At least here in the US. Not sure about the UK and Australia.
- edstate, on 06/01/2009, -0/+7I've been w/ Citi for YEARS and they just started charging me "per check" charges, and "account maintenance fees" out of the blue, with no warning. I called them up, they said "change in policy" (even though I put a TON of money through my accounts, and have never went negative). They wouldn't budge, so I told them I was going 'bank shopping', and they said "fine... we've got Government protection". I'm not kidding. They actually don't NEED to fight for the few remaining customers they have, by offering higher rates or better service, perks, etc. They don't have to do ***** because my tax money is keeping them afloat.
GGGggggrrrrrrr. - inactive, on 06/01/2009, -1/+7Banks are charging exorbitantly high fees for more than just "paying bills late". You need to do some more investigative research, you don't have all the facts.
- trer, on 06/01/2009, -3/+9Of course they're not content with taking billions of our tax money. They're going to nickle and dime us to death with late fees and penalties too! Why would the banks ever give up such a great situation? They OWN us!
- kaidovak, on 06/01/2009, -0/+5By definition, yes.
- avidlinuxuser, on 06/01/2009, -0/+5people make it out to be that all the fees people are paying are in the contract.
In the past 6 months or so, I know of the following that has happened.
1) Banks slash credit lines by a fair amount on a customer who pays on time. Customer has used up less than their old credit line but more than the new credit line. Since they are "techincally" over their limit, they get charged various fees for going over their new limit that the bank randomly gave them.
2) Adding new hidden fees without notifying consumers. Again, this often leads to going over defined limits cause the customer is not aware of them.
Banks have been basically scum to their customers recently. You people making light of hidden fees and creating faux over limit charges by slashing credit limits of customers who are time, well, I don't know what to say other then I hope you don't have to suddenly deal with charges that are not the fault of your bad behavior but the bank's greed. - mofw, on 06/01/2009, -2/+6Usury
- excalibre, on 06/01/2009, -0/+4Its one of the reasons Australian banks have not been hit as bad as most banks around the world. The income received through their enormous fees has been the capital buffer they required to ride out most of the effects of the credit crunch down under.
- unpluggedboy, on 06/01/2009, -0/+4You must be a real sucker for punishment.
Sure, the penalty charges suck and are outrageously high, but if the consumers were responsible and used credit like it was intended, there wouldn't be a problem.
I've NEVER been charged any penalty fees nor even interest by paying everything off in full monthly, and even better, make an average of 2.5-3% cash back with an avg of 1500-2000 monthly spending spread out over 4-5 cards.
People should simply act responsibly with their credit and there wouldn't be any problems. I'm afraid the new legislation will just reduce my limits, cash back awards, and see the reenactment of those lousy annual fees. - asgardshill, on 06/01/2009, -0/+4So how does that work for you when you sign a contract but they CHANGE THE TERMS OF THE CONTRACT WITHOUT NOTIFYING YOU, then stick you with these bogus "late fees"? Citibank for one is notorious for unilaterally changing the due date on payments WITHOUT NOTIFYING YOU then socking you with late fees. Before I paid off then dumped my CitiCard, I got hit with late fees four separate times because those bastards changed the due date four separate times.
*****. - fugazied, on 06/01/2009, -0/+4We do have additional regulations on the banking system, but some 'funds' like Macquarie bank's got hit because they invested heavily in ***** debt for short term profit. Just like in the US, the execs who made those decisions walked away with millions as investors lost hundreds of millions.
- NorthMass, on 06/01/2009, -3/+7All they have to do is ask for another bailout.
- inactive, on 06/01/2009, -1/+5To the people that are paying banks for loans and mortgages - ask the bank to provide proof that they put their money into your account in the first place. They can't, because they didn't. Through fractional reserve banking they CREATED that money when you signed the contract. Luckily, they deceived you by leading you to believe they loaned you the money when they really just created it out of thin air, thus voiding any contract. Look it up. The video "Money as Debt" explains this in detail.
- StopTheLie, on 06/01/2009, -4/+8In other news: Banks making TRILLIONS of dollars by creating our money supply, out of thin air, and then "loaning it" to governments and citizens alike.
- Nerys, on 06/01/2009, -0/+3making money. Interesting choice of words since they really are the only once outside gov who can MAKE MONEY literally out of thin air. Go watch a video on google called MONEY AS DEBT. its an enlightening video for sure.
making money is different from stealing embezzling and gouging for money. - Nerys, on 06/01/2009, -1/+4you miss the point. He did not over draft 4 times on 4 things.
he overdrafted ONCE the bank then erase and reapplied those items in a NEW convenient order (usually largest to smallest) so that AFTER THE FACT it BECOMES 4 over drafts.
YES this is by definition embezzlement and YES it appears its perfectly legal if your a bank. - drakelord, on 06/01/2009, -7/+10Simple solution. Don't overdraft or pay late. Learn to balance a checkbook if you don't already, and assume that any check/withdraw you make is instant rather than waiting for it to take effect.
- Nerys, on 06/01/2009, -1/+4Oh yeah thats so easy. Let me relate a story.
When I got a bank account 20 years ago I got into trouble with checks and overage fee's. I am very very poor at managing my money. I would write a check and if by some level of bad luck that person FORGOT to cash or deposit that check in a timely manner a few weeks would go by I would FORGET and ASSUME it was already done and think OK I have x amount etc.. You see how that goes.
Well off course although mitigated by bad practices on the part of the one I gave the check too this is 100% my fault. No issue there.
SO I did the smart thing. I stopped using checks. Along came CHECK CARDS and I was saved.
for 10 glorious years it was FANTASTIC. you see when I charged something with the check card one of 2 things happened.
Either I had the money and it went through or GOSH get this. it DECLINED insufficient funds.
what a novel concepts. It just makes so much sense it HAS to be wrong don't you think?
in 8+ years I never had one overage fee. you see I did everything CASH or CHECK CARD. Overage fee's were impossible with this combo. PERFECT. I suck at managing my money but cash and check card make managing my money silly easy.
either I had enough and it worked or I did not and it declined.
Then one day in the eleventh year I got an iced tea at wawa and a salad. about $8 unknown to me (poor money management remember) I only had $7.55 in the account.
it cleared I thought nothing off it till I logged in that night and saw my account almost $35 negative.
I went into the bank and queried as to why? they said you charged $8 but only had $7.55 so we permitted the charged and charged a fee for the convenience.
I looked at the lady for a good 30 seconds with this dumbfounded look on my face.
I started to say something stopped. waited
I was truly dumbfounded. Once I was able to speak I stammered out. Let me get this straight. You gave me an unwanted unasked for LOAN of 45 cents and then charged me $35 in interest for the unwanted unasked for loan?
she stuttered its not a loan. I stopped her right there and said where did the 45 cents come from?
it came from us. So First Federal bank (this is before them become wachovia) gave me 45 cents to cover the charge from my card right?
yes interrupted her again and said THAT IS A LOAN.
now you also charged me $35 for incurring that 45 cent charge right? yes it (stopped her again) thats called interest or a "fee" same thing as interest in this case since it was derived from a loan.
I said I am pretty good at math and its too much for my brain to figure out what the interest is on a $35 fee for a 45 cent loan.
its something its something like 7,000 % or something like that.
I looked at her and said ARE YOU MAD?
She stammered out well some people do not want to be embarrassed by being declined.
I got louder (I was flaming mad at the insanity of this explanation) and said I would rather have someone swoop in and spank me in public for overspending rather than pay $35 for a 45 cent overdraft!
I could never admit in public that I would rather pay $37 for an iced teat at wawa rather than be DECLINED for being 45 cents short.
I would just take the god damned $2 out of my stinking pocket before paying $37 for that tea.
Are you utterly mad with this explanation and on top of this I NEVER ASKED FOR OR AUTHORIZED this "micro loan" you gave me!
Manager comes over. looks at the records and explains to me what they have done. its an optional service that they "turned on" for everyone by default.
he said he would refund the fee and "turn off" this "feature" I clarified this means it would go back the way it was. Not enough get declined right? he said yes.
I whispered to him what gives with this? I said only a ***** horses ass or an extremely greedy corrupt bank could possibly think this was a good idea.
He said he understood and notated the account.
This continued for a few more years. every 6 months or so this "feature" would magically turn back on. I would have to go back and explain that it was turned off. They would see the notes and "fix" it again.
after about 2 years things changed. (they were wachovia now) suddenly this was no longer an optional feature. It had now becomes a COMPULSORY you have no choice but to accept out 8000% micro loans whether you want them or not.
Worse we won't even tell you what your REAL balance is at ATM's we "add" this $100 micro loan limit INTO your available balance so you THINK you have that much in there. (online it shows the real value thankfully)
Then it gets worse.
you see CHECKS presented a problem. if I wrote out check #1 #3 and #4
what happens if they get 3 or 4 before they get 1? what happens to the fact that I did not write out #2 (got dirty tore it up) how do they cash 3 and 4 without first getting #2?
so a law was passed allowing banks to cash checks OUT OF ORDER. this makes perfect sense right? well its was a VAGUE law. it gave banks carte blanch to screw you.
You see they are not only allowed to cash them out of order but in ANY ORDER THEY WISH.
let me give you an example. lets say you have $1000 in your bank account.
You write out a few small checks $5 $10 $25 say.
You write out a payment of $1000. You let it slip your mind about the $5 $10 and $25 so instead of writing out a $950 payment you accidentally write out a $1000 payment.
now you would think the $5 and $10 and $25 would clear and then the $1000 would clear and they would charge you a fee right?
wrong. since the bank is allowed to apply them in ANY ORDER THEY WISH they do the logical greedy thing.
they apply the $1000 FIRST and then the other 3 so instead of ONE over drafting 3 of them over draft.
so instead of the PROPER what you signed up for $35 fee you get $105 in fees
Well this was going great for them UNTIL check cards. you see check cards were a wonder for people like me BAD at managing money.
as people STOPPED using checks and starting using check cards they lost that milk money they were getting from criminal over draft fee's (and it is criminal I will explain later)
So the idea hit them. Nothing in this RULE of there's limited it to CHECKS. you see TECHNICALLY even though a check card transactions is instantaneous and the money is deducted from your account in under 5 seconds its technically not complete.
thats why suddenly charges stopped showing up as charges and started showing up as PENDING. they were setting the ground work for there next greed move.
Then a few days later they would "post"
during this period of pending to post they were permitted legally to handle them as CHECKS.
ie they could not REWRITE HISTORY under the right circumstances and cream you in fee's
they did this to me to the tune of almost $300 in fees!
I overdrew the account by $12.50 got a great deal on a power supply at a closing compusa. OK its my fault. the next morning I noticed my error and the $35 fee.
On no problem. it sucks made a good deal into a bad deal (with the fee it made the power supply higher than its regular retail price) but I goofed.
24 hours later the $35 fee was gone? huh? whats going on here.
12 hours later suddenly the account was almost $300 negative!
they ERASED almost 10 days worth of transactions. TEN FRAKING DAYS.
and "reapplied" them in a new magical order in "sets" to change that SINGLE over draft of $35 into EIGHT over drafts totally $280
Needless to say I was quite simply speechless.
I went into the bank thinking this has got to be some sort of error. NO it was not. It was no error. the law said they could do this!
Here is the criminal part. I looked it up in blacks law dictionary.
Embezzlement is basically where you SKIM money off of someone who's money you control or interact with.
So you "adjust fidget or play" with figured to result in money being channeled away from the owner to "you"
This is precisely what wachovia had done. they "played" with 10 days of numbers to alter the outcome to a greater number of fee's for them.
off course all this was LIVE data from the website. inbetween statements and off course the statement would reflect the NEW "altered" history timeline.
It did not even matter that I had reciepts time stamped. the law says they can POST them in any order they wish.
This is by definition embezzlement. Then she said you should have had over draft protection which just send me off the deep end.
If you did not COMPEL mandatory micro loans against my will I would not NEED over draft protection and on top of that you CHARGE for over draft and not like the old days one fee transfer $100 or some other fixed amount you SCREWED that up too now you only transfer the EXACT amount of the over draft so you get to charge you fee for EACH AND EVER transaction.
THAT is called a RACKET. thats how they took down some mafia folks for racketeering.
A racket is when you create a pay service to solve a problem that YOU YOURSELF created.
Think thugs and protection money. They come in rough you or your store up and then offer to PROTECT YOU (from themselves) if you pay them protection money.
this is a RACKET.
SO moral of the story is. Embezzlement and Racketeering will land you in prison UNLESS your a bank then its fully legal SOP.
When it become clear they would not budge (spent 3 weeks trying to sort it out) I deposited the $12.50 I over drafted and walked out.
they can suck my ... well you get the idea I will rot in hell before I pay those illegal fee's
NO WHERE in my "contract" did it say they could conduct embezzlement and racketeering. NO WHERE in my contract EVEN to this day does it state COMPULSORY micro loans are included (even today) yet there they are.
So get a life before you tell me I should have read the ***** contract.
On top of that reading the contract is MEANINGLESS since they all 100% of them include clauses that say they can change this ANY TIME THEY PLEASE without your consent.
so whats the point? your reading VAPOR that changes on a whim.
Don't tell me to go somewhere else since ALL OF THEM DO IT.
and you pretty much CAN NOT FUNCTION in today's society without a bank account.
Credit cards are even worse. unless you can afford to pay one off in ONE SHOT they will RAISE YOUR INTEREST rate to PREVENT you from paying it off!
I had a little bit of extra income so I started making larger payments on one of my cards to pay it down in say 12-14 months.
they raised my interest rate from 12% to 23% to 100% eat up the "extra" amount I was paying extra each month!!!
I called them and even though my credit was good my history was PERFECT never a single late payment ever. They Upped my interest anyway and there answer as to why was pretty much "because we can"
it was clear why. I was paying more. so I was actually eating away at principle. by increasing the interest rate that specific amount they returned me to an almost 100% interest only monthly payment. This was intentional.
How do you fight this? lesson learned? NEVER pay over your minimum payment by more than a few dollars or you will be PUNISHED harshly. pay the minimum plus a few bucks (looks good on credit report) and save your money till you can pay 100% of the loan in 1 or 2 payments before they can adjust the interest on you.
Once its a $0 balance they usually will not frell with the interest since the ball is now in YOUR court IE you can LEAVE.
Where does it state THAT specifically in my contract that paying larger than minimum due will result in higher interest to compensate for the larger payment?
besides the catch all we can change your interest rate any damned time we please for any reason we please even if its no reason at all.
so SCREW YOU read the contract.
Who is at fault for getting me into debt? ME 100% me.
Who is at fault for stacking the deck to KEEP me in debt as long as possible?
THEM 99% THEM. that is where I have the problem.
LET ME PAY DOWN THE GOD DAMNED DEBT on some vaguely fair terms! - inactive, on 06/01/2009, -0/+3But should you accept it?
- Stettenbauer, on 06/01/2009, -0/+3Yes,and nothing in that regard has changed in 100's or probably 1000's of years.
- o76923, on 06/01/2009, -0/+2actually you have it backwards. 1% have all the power and are finding a way to screw over the 99%. Nobody but the top 1% has the power to screw over anyone in any way.
- Nerys, on 06/01/2009, -0/+2NO he has the facts he is just our of place and a moron.
you see this is a lot harder to do in the UK etc.. they have "some" consumer centric rules over there including banks NOT being allowed to fleece you for fee's they are only allowed to charge WHAT it actually cost them and you can take them to court and WIN if they violate this rule.
One guy even got a court order after he won and the bank still refused to pay and went in with police (constables?) to "take posession" of property from the bank for the value of the judgement. They quickly sorted it out and payed up.
We do not have those kinds of protections here in the US kaidovak. - peaceninja, on 06/01/2009, -2/+4people complain when the government takes your money. people complain when the private sector takes your money.
people complain when the government controls/regulates the private sector. people complain when the private sector lobbies the government.
what alternatives are there? is there a litmus test for when a society becomes too capitalistic or socialist? - asgardshill, on 06/01/2009, -0/+2"The right way" is when the bill is due. I'm glad you've apparently got so much disposable income that you can afford to pay all your bills a month ahead of time.
- TheOneKen, on 06/01/2009, -1/+3I've done the same thing, run up hundreds of dollars in fees over a few bucks in transactions. Once it wasn't even my fault, but was due to the bank processing a check late, and they still stuck it to me. I subsequently cancelled my accounts at the banks involved. Although, I think every other bank has the same policies, so I doubt it made any difference.
I'll admit my guilt in the whole thing as well, but when you're a broke student sometimes you have to cut things close. The amount and frequency of these charges is simply predatory. - latin69, on 06/01/2009, -0/+2I claimed my charges back in the UK.......................FTW!
- falstaff, on 06/01/2009, -0/+2So you make them go easier on the penalties, what do you think is going to happen? They just raise the rates and profit from everybody else.
In other words, the good customers are going to be paying more. Thanks congress!
@neilk85: Absolutely true. My wife works for a video store, and fully half the revenue is from late fees. If they had to reduce them, they'd just end up charging everybody more up front. Once again, the good customers would end up paying more while the deadbeats get a break. - adc86, on 06/01/2009, -0/+2We (in the US) are a pretty screwed up hybrid of both systems.
Honestly, I think the litmus test concerns the available power and leverage any given politician has, and is valid only from the perspective of said politician. - inactive, on 06/01/2009, -0/+2Can one fart in or near an Australian bank and not get charged $2.50?
Counter fee = $2.50
ATM fee = $2.50
Account Balance = $2.50
Every time a cent is moved, it costs you $2.50. So over a year that's $2.50 x 53 (wages) default minimum. Wish I could do that! No wonder the scumbags make billion dollar profits with a population of just 20 million. - Nerys, on 06/01/2009, -0/+2How about this. it used to be very simple. If the money was not there the charge was DECLINED.
seems pretty simple right? IT IS and this is how banking worked for well over a decade.
NOW they NOT US they the banks ALTERED the conditions to PERMIT you to over draft WITHOUT your consent forwarding you a micro loan the cover the over draft. You have NO SAY in this.
if you do not have the money and make a charge AFTER this point you have NO SAY they can choose to forward you the money whether you want it or not and CHARGE YOU FOR IT.
YES this IS so outrageous. GO FIND this power of theres in your contract for me. Good luck with that.
You are right though the creation of money out of thin air and usury IS the core of our problem. - Nerys, on 06/01/2009, -0/+1You don't have a choice if you wish to FUNCTION in today's society for most people.
- fugazied, on 06/01/2009, -0/+1The problem is that is no real downside. When incompetence is involved and most of their investments are focused on short term greed instead of the long term viability, people should be fired. They are so isolated in the corporate bubble that the huge consequences these clowns face is a pay cut. Those that were fired received hefty severance packages.
- Nerys, on 06/01/2009, -0/+1tell that to the US GOV who just cleared a 3.4 TRILLION dollar budget.
I get to overspend whether I want to or not since the choice is pay my taxes or goto prison.
some choice. - optrenium, on 06/01/2009, -2/+3WTF... banks screwin' people over? NO WAY! Seriously, if you're just now figuring this out... welcome to EARTH, because you haven't *****' been here the last 100 years!
- Nerys, on 06/03/2009, -0/+1And let me explain how it gets WORSE.
Bank of America is playing these games now.
remember where I mention CC payments would take TIME to clear. well apparently thats optional too.
I had a CC payment sit PENDING for almost 9 days. I had the money in their. I made some charges. Added some money. Made some more charges. Added some money. always staying ahead of it to make sure it never went negative.
Then one day account was STILL positive. Poof $35 fee. What the hell for?
they went back 9 days and RETROACTIVELY counted the CC payment BEFORE the deposit I had made so mathmatically it seemed to go negative for about 2 seconds.
NOW they claim the right to charge FEES on PENDING charges!
This last month I had a bunch of CC payments do something they have NEVER EVER done before.
Clear INSTANTLY. I made a payment for the 3rd and it CLEARED the same morning. NO PENDING. Just straight to cleared.
Then it hit me. last month I made a BUNCH of payments on the 3rd and the previous month before that same thing. I was always pretty CLOSE on the balance (I work for a small family company and my pay is "unreliable" at best I am due many months of back pay but I know they will be good for it and I am just glad to have a job!) so its really TIGHT getting my bills paid on time each month.
they NOTICED this pattern and realized they had a better chance of socking me for FEE's if they cleared the payments instantly.
SO next month I payed 1 bill early on the first. and then 1 bill a day till the 8th.
they held them all 100% of them as pending for 11 days!
HOPING I would pay one too many so they could RETROACTIVELY fee the ones before it.
These banks are actually PROACTIVELY working hard to try and defraud people! this is intentional behavior.
until these past few months I have never in 20 years had a CC payment clear INSTANTLY same day. NEVER.
Now that I have caught on to it (my deposits reflect this knowledge) they have STOPPED clearing them instantly they are back to pending since now the odds are in there favor to pend them and hope I get behind.
If that is not F'ed up..... - opiniastrous, on 06/01/2009, -0/+1I agreed with most of your comment. However, you're somewhat wrong about the Macquarie execs. After the global economic crisis, they literally cut their wages from upwards of 20 million to a couple of hundred thousand dollars.
You might still whinge that they're making too much, but I reckon that for the amount of hours they put in and the responsibility they bear, they're probably still worth that much even after taking some losses. - LoJack, on 06/01/2009, -2/+3Hey, it's capitalism. Would you rather socialism?
- Nerys, on 06/01/2009, -0/+1except right or wrong they can ENFORCE the loan on you against your will so the net result is zip.
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