What is Digg?133 Comments
- johndi, on 11/25/2008, -6/+55FTA: "As the economy continues to reel, a new report finds that 4 million American households lost economic security between 2000 and 2006."
I don't believe they were that secure to begin with if they lost their security. It's not a fault issue, and I'm not blaming them in any way. It's just that financial security means you can afford the worst man and nature can throw at you and still be secure. It just isn't a realistic expectation that someone in the middle class can achieve this. The worst way the deck is stacked against us is that insurance companies can drop you as a customer because they feel like it. They put limits on how much they will spend on your health. They can decide which treatments to exclude. This Often leaves people who believed they were secure footing the bill.
For the middle class security is an illusion. It is one that is easily pierced by a pink slip, a lawsuit, or any major health problem. This is something that the government needs to address. It is a bigger threat to national security than any of the governments favorite boogie men used to scare us into compliance. It is often a disaffected middle class that starts revolutions. - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -1/+36What the rich don't want you to know is that not everyone can be rich at the same time.
The American Dream.
They call it a dream for a reason. - brickbat, on 11/25/2008, -2/+37A hundred years ago they called it wage slavery and it was considered worse than the regular type of slavery. The argument was that when you own a slave, you will take care of him because he is your asset. When you "rent" a slave with wages, you don't care about his condition because when he is worn out or injured, you can just rent a different one.
- inactive, on 11/25/2008, -12/+40The sad thing is Universal Healthcare would be cheaper for Americans, but the insurance lobbyists have both the Democrats and the Republicans in their pockets.
- sgr215, on 11/25/2008, -3/+28Right, because of the fact you saw people using "credit cards", that could also very well be debit cards, you assume all of the middle class is in debt because they are buying useless stuff they don't need. By this logic I'd have to assume all African-Americans are muggers because I once witnessed one mugging someone on the subway.
Guess what? There are a lot of middle class Americans in debt because of things beyond their control. Unfortunately my parents happen to be one of these who are $75,000-/+ in debt with 95% of that being medical debt. When you've had a kid with a rare form of cancer, quadruple bypass surgery, and cancer yourself you'll understand how bills can build up fast. Especially when you find out health insurance refuses to cover even the most basic things under the guise of calling those things "experimental".
It also isn't as simple as simple as "They should have paid it!". If you had perfect credit and a $10,000 credit limit and you suddenly lost your job and needed to provide food for your family would you do it? Luckily I haven't been put in this situation but I sure as hell would do anything for my family to make sure they got what they needed. - WiretapStudios, on 11/25/2008, -5/+26I'm making more money than I have ever made, and I feel I am the poorest I have ever been.
- rrc7cz, on 11/25/2008, -9/+29Maybe you should blame them. Blame them for living beyond their means, blame them for supporting government policies that caused bubbles and inflated the money supply like crazy, blame them for making "Flip that house" more popular than speeches on the Fed, blame them for being so apathetic to the world around them.
I think part of the problem is nobody wants to take any damn responsibility. It's "nobody's fault" or finding some scapegoat. No, there are extremely clear reasons for this collapse and many smart people have been predicting it for a very long time (Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers, Lew Rockwell, Ron Paul are some that come to mind)..
Stand up and take responsibility. It's all of our faults for letting this happen. For voting the way we did, for not protesting policies that caused this, for living beyond our means. - Mujokan, on 11/25/2008, -1/+20This crisis has been all about debt, from people betting on rising house values to leveraged derivatives trading.
In the theory of economic crashes in catastrophe theory, the most important things are how elements of the system are interconnected, and how much energy is stored up to propagate through the system. Debt makes interconnections much more complicated and it represents extra energy -- so initial crash-generating events become harder to predict, but you know that when the crash comes, it will be bigger.
This crisis is dangerous because it's so volatile and unpredictable. Not only has ubiquitous debt meant you get big changes cascading across the system, but the complexity of who holds what debt has meant that people have become scared to lend money, in case they get caught up in one of those moves.
This is why Obama is proposing so much stimulus, in an attempt to cushion these moves and stop them propagating so far. There is a lot of danger of a spike in unemployment that could have big flow-on consequences.
However, it is essential to get oversight and transparency into the stimulus. The trillions that the Fed has been lending over the past year are being kept secret, and we can't be sure the money is being used for its proper purpose -- to enable the complex pattern of lending and re-lending to shake itself out so that the credit system starts functioning again.
I have to end by noting that it was criminally negligent to allow this situation to develop. A lot of people with vested interests were overselling the housing market bubble, the ability of hedging to stabilize the financial system, the need to keep the markets sweet through cheap money, etc. Lessons must be learned. - OutlawSundown, on 11/25/2008, -2/+21
Wow you actually pay for internet porn? - dreimanis, on 11/25/2008, -3/+19Then it's not a middle class.
- inactive, on 11/25/2008, -14/+30Damn those fat cats on Wall Street, I can't believe they made me buy this 50 inch plasma TV, HD subscription, and my porn site premium membership!!
- LilRabbitFooFoo, on 11/25/2008, -1/+15Exactly. Think about it, the HMOs, Insurance companies, etc. are all MIDDLE MEN who actually accomplish nothing whatsoever for us or for the doctors. They are just sucking money out of both ends, which ALL goes for salaries (for themselves) and profit. And those salaries are only paying for administration of their own scam. It's utterly ludicrous. It would SAVE Americans a fortune to go to a universal health care plan. It DOESN'T preclude supplementary (rich people) insurance, just like in Britain or Canada, so you can still have perks etc. It just means no one has to go bankrupt because they got sick or die because they didn't visit the doctor for a treatable illness until it's too late.
- 1professional, on 11/25/2008, -2/+15What the world needs is an economic model based on sustainable development, not this boom and bust model which is controlled by an invisible clique of money-merchants and which in good and bad times sees them getting filthy-richer, either through gluts when times are fat or by seizing control of resources and property when times are lean.
Think about it, who loans you the money for your house and gets the interest? Right, and now who gets your house for free when you cannot afford it? - nkleffman, on 11/25/2008, -2/+14It's called inflation, our dollars have been devalued because we have nothing objective backing them - only a government promise to pay with additional IOUs.
It's the law of supply and demand. If you double the supply of Federal Reserve Notes, and that doubled supply is chasing after the same amount of goods and services, then each Federal Reserve Note will have 1/2 of the demand. This causes prices to rise, but it isn't truly prices rising, but just their relative "price" in devalued Federal Reserve Notes.
We doubled the money supply from 2000 to 2004, we doubled it again by 2006, and then the Fed stopped releasing the M3 money supply numbers for first time in 80+ years because it was getting too embarrassing.
Feel better? - magamiako, on 11/25/2008, -2/+14You can't not rely on the insurance companies. Our "modern society" is built around it. To say you can survive within means is a farce. You will always be living beyond your means.
Going to school? Unless your parents are loaded with cash, a decent university or even a technical school will cost you in the tens of thousands. Unless you can pull that kind of money out of your behind (I have about $100-$200/month extra every month, so in a year I could save $1200-$2400 if I saved all of it without going out and doing anything), you aren't going to go to school.
If you're a person stuck in a rut, want to learn a new skill in the changing job market to pick yourself up, you're going to be SOL if you're in the same type of situation I am.
All of this of course unless you go into debt. You could grab a student loan, go to school full time, work full time, and put off paying for the student loan until 6 months after you get out of school. They have long term payments with a low interest rate so you could likely afford it with a new job.
Then there's health insurance. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you have insurance, at the very least you're paying $50/month out of your paycheck at work for a full range of benefits (dental, optical, general health). If you opt out of the insurance to save the cash, everything in medicine costs more. Why? Because everyone assumes you have insurance to begin with. The pricing is set for someone with insurance, not for someone without.
If you're getting what I'm saying here, the ENTIRE system is flawed. Moving to a "privatized" system, "getting the government out of business" is not the idea we need to be following. Everything I stated earlier has been pretty much handled by PRIVATE enterprises. Insurance is a private enterprise. To the end user, it's a social system--except someone on top benefits from it. (This means that unlike a social system, not only are you paying for someone else's hospital bills, you're also paying for some private tycoon's first class airplane seats, private jets, resort getaways, etc.) - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -2/+1324% of the middle class, are actually upper class pessimists.
- Recidivus, on 11/25/2008, -2/+13*****. I've needed and gotten 1 MRI with minimal wait, my wife had to wait a whopping 6 hours for her CT Scan. If you are dying, you will be bumped to the front of the list. I'd also rather die waiting to get help than die after being denied any help.
I don't know where you get your news, but it's wrong. There may be isolated cases, but it is definitely not the norm. - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -3/+13I was at the bank today and i asked the lady had anything changed since the economy was going downhill. She said " more people are getting credit cards, and unsecured debts , lots of people because they are just using it to pay off other debts they already have" wow
- pinchduck, on 11/25/2008, -0/+10Get out of debt. Individually and nationally, we have gone on a debt binge and it threatens our individual and national security. This has to end now. Unfortunately Obama wants to increase spending and the deficit. Dang. Wrong answer, Mr. President.
- GREEDOnvrFIRED, on 11/25/2008, -0/+8So it turns out you don't have to be filthy rich to be greedy and hang yourself with your own ridiculous desires. Stop by the bar and drop off your resume. I will be sure to give it the same consideration you would have given mine.
- morepowerr, on 11/25/2008, -0/+8The US government is assbackwards. The government is working on the theory that if we give the banks money they will give people loan's.
Now besides this looking like there trying to build a house from the roof down. The only ones who win are the banks. The government has already said where going to keep taking from the poor and middle class to keep you running. A.K.A. taking from the poor and giving to the rich. So the banks don't need to give any loans. All they have to do is sit back and keep getting money from the government. With is taken from the people under distress.
Because the government has said your to big to fail. So no one wins but the banks. How don't give a ***** about anything but bleeding the people dry. - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -0/+7http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A
Elizabeth Warren of Harvard Law explains why the rise in college tuition, home mortgage, health care, are causing he middle class to decline, and not due to excessive wasteful spending. Many Americans would like to save but can't because they just aren't being paid enough relative to everyday expenses. - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -0/+7Here's where the data is coming from:
"The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, B.C.-based think tank, ...has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks, while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks. "
"...in some instances, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. ...hip-replacement patients often end up non-ambulatory while waiting an average of 20 weeks for the procedure, and that's after having waited 13 weeks just to see the specialist."
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=3809
Here's more:
"Cancer patients are waiting months for a follow up MRI to see if their disease has responded to treatment. It's said that Ontario needs at least 80 more scanners to meet the current demand."
http://www.vhl.org/newsletter/vhl2001/01bjmric.php
And these are mostly people that have PAID for their health care, by paying their Canadian taxes all their lives! Sure, it's easy to get a check-up and flu shots. But when there's a real health problem maybe YOU can't get an MRI. Why? Cause YOUR health care was already used by some homeless guy. Or an illegal immigrant. Or someone else who didn't pay but got YOUR spot.
It's as if you went to a restaurant. Paid the bill in advance. Then someone ELSE got your dinner !
And that's what Obama wants for all of us. - austang, on 11/25/2008, -3/+10It's simple supply and demand folks.
The demand for money is high, the supply is low. Some bastard is hoarding it all, including the backup bacon reserves. - turbosarus, on 11/25/2008, -1/+7D E B T
- LilRabbitFooFoo, on 11/25/2008, -1/+7oh ffs. puh-lease
- bovilexia, on 11/25/2008, -2/+8"When you've had a kid with a RARE form of cancer..."
Rare is the key word here. Yes there are a some people that are in debt due to rare diseases that require constant medical attention. It's rare though. I would be willing to bet that it most cases people aren't in debt due to having a family member with a rare medical condition.
"If you had perfect credit and a $10,000 credit limit and you suddenly lost your job and needed to provide food for your family.."
This is why all financial advisers tell you to have a emergency fund. So when this happens you have the money to pay for necessities for a few months time while you go out and get a new job.
There a few people out there that are in debt because of things out of their control. There may even be "a lot" but the majority of them got there by spending too much on credit, not saving for the future, living paycheck to paycheck, etc. - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -0/+6magamiako --
Dental work can be very expensive. But why does getting your neighbor to pay for your dental work make it any cheaper? - dagnome1984, on 11/25/2008, -2/+8You can't get out of debt nationally. The system is built to run on debt. You would need a complete monetary reform so that congress can only fund programs via taxes.
- Recidivus, on 11/25/2008, -1/+6Someone has to rip the sites to upload....
- cquinnd, on 11/25/2008, -0/+5Products and services that can be gained by internet access or a subscription to a cable or satellite service are expected to increase in general. But so will activities and forms of entertainment that can be gained more cheaply or even bring some benefit in their use.
- pathouston22, on 11/25/2008, -2/+7I'm middle class and I'm quite happy and secure financially. Then again, I actually save money and live within my means, so I guess I'm in the minority.
- nkleffman, on 11/25/2008, -2/+7How about 30 years ago, when doctors like Dr. Ron Paul worked at a charity hospital for $2 an hour and no one was turned away?
But I guess that is just an old worthless system that doesn't apply in the new age of loving government, just like the Constitution? - vizeroth, on 11/25/2008, -0/+5There might be a lot of sales going on right now, but all of the basics are more expensive than they were a couple of years ago. Bread, milk, eggs, fruit, vegetables, meat are all costing me more than they used to. The lower gas prices are giving me a bit of help, but since the price of everything else went up when the gas prices were high, it's a drop in the bucket.
Of course, I've taken some action to fix the feeling that I'm poorer than I've ever been while making more money. I'm paying off debt (have been for years, finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel), cutting out some of the extras I've been paying for here and there (Blackberry data plan is probably the biggest in terms of cost), and the Xmas gifts are going to have to come from cash on hand rather than jacking up a credit card to be paid off later.
My biggest issues are that my rent is higher (because everyone jacked up rent when the housing prices were higher, and of course I can't afford to buy a house unless I find a good foreclosure), and electricity bills are higher (a few months ago they added a fuel surcharge and doubled the bill, and state regulation means they supposedly can only change the costs annually). Thankfully I live in a state with relatively low energy costs, so I'm not paying even 1/4 of my rent in electricity, but it's still about 1.5 times what it was last year, and I'm using almost half the electricity I was last year. - frosted, on 11/25/2008, -1/+6Not the government's responsibility.
You earn the money, you are the one responsible for the use, misuse or abuse of that money.
Blame anyone but your own, just make God pay your bills. - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -1/+6I buy everything with credit cards, but I pay off my credit cards every month.
Cash sucks. It's a pain in the ass. My money sits in my bank account, and I only use it to pay my bills online. - salinemist, on 11/25/2008, -2/+7Give me back the $1500 a month I pay in taxes, that will help.
- Sethbacca, on 11/25/2008, -0/+5Ooooh great idea.... *takes notes*
- tgc1, on 11/25/2008, -1/+6I think this whole fiasco is playing out just as it was planned. Planned in that I see many things at work here, but one underlying cause. The banks, more specifically the Federal Reserve. Why blame the banks? They have the keys, the control and the motives. People blaming each other. The rich blaming the poor, the poor blaming the rich. People thinking that because someone went out and purchased a plasma screen THAT in effect made them bankrupt. Poppycock. That's the line we've been fed. They want us to blame each other while they go loot the treasury. It's already happening. Just read the news.
The bankers put out a banquet, a buffet... and people came to feed. Very simple. To illustrate, look out your window if you live on a property. Do you have a bird feeder out there? Do you see how the birds come for the free food? It's in their nature to take advantage of an opportunity. You cannot blame the bird for what is in its nature. It is owing its choices to survival.. But my very crude illustration does show you how the basis of this crisis formed.
Lending money with no guarantees, was a poor choice. But seeing since so many brokers made huge bank reselling these things to chumps thinking that they were rated higher than they were, or creating products out of useless debt (ie. debt that would be defaulted BECAUSE it was loaned to someone who they knew could not pay for it). It was easy money. And it also gave the Fed an excuse for the bailouts. All the banks come crying to the public tax payer because they made "mistakes" -- *****. They KNEW this would happen. It's like putting out a bird feeder and expecting the birds not to feed on it. Only a fool would think this way. But you see, like many things, it's not all on the surface. Sometimes putting out free food isn't a gesture of kindness, it's a trap. And until people start realizing that we've been duped, those same lot, the bankers, will continue to loot and pillage with no regard for the common man. When you take off your blinders, you'll see who's really pulling at the purse strings. And it's not the public. Follow the money people. Follow the money. - Ari1, on 11/25/2008, -0/+5What American People Call "Not Financially Secure" Is Unreachable Level of Living in a Lot of Countries....
- Rockkybox, on 11/25/2008, -1/+6Everything while high makes for great entertainment, but no need to share that with us; unless your just creating a 'I'm cool I get high' image
- TheInformer, on 11/25/2008, -3/+8Oh course, people living beyond their means are not to be held accountable.
- kingmanic, on 11/25/2008, -0/+5Revolutions are started by the intellectual elite who lead the mob. Lenin, Mao, Napoleon, First Continental Congress etc. . . all educated elitists who started a revolution. The middle class are the soldiers and cannon fodder.
- ttam, on 11/25/2008, -0/+5Isn't that the definition of middle class? If we were financially secure we would be upper class.
- Rockkybox, on 11/25/2008, -1/+5Au contrare
°opens a vegetarian cookery book, with a hollowed out centre, filled with bacon° - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -3/+7Ahem.
"Healthcare costs in the USA surpassed $2 trillion in 2006. Compare that to the 112.5 billion dollars spent in the UK. According to your solution, healthcare in the USA should cost at least 562.5 billion dollars for it to be running at the same efficiency as the NHS, as the USA has a population 5 times bigger than the UK's. It doesn't take an Insurance Executive to see that you're paying four times too much." - GrodyChamp, on 11/25/2008, -0/+4And how many of the 76% have 20 credit cards, a couple of iphones, and finance everything in their house? People are ***** stupid and don't want to take responsibility for it.
- inactive, on 11/25/2008, -4/+8Ah, empty Reaganite slogans. You promised so much, yet you brought about our downfall.
Healthcare in the USA surpassed $2 trillion in 2006. Compare that to the 112.5 billion dollars spent in the UK. According to your solution, healthcare in the USA should cost at least 562.5 billion dollars for it to be running at the same efficiency as the NHS. It doesn't take an Insurance Executive to see that you're paying four times too much. - inactive, on 11/25/2008, -0/+3What we really need is the Bailey Bros. Building and Loan. Seriously, "It's a Wonderful Life" is going to ring a lot of bells this year.
- falser, on 11/25/2008, -1/+4Word to the wise: if you have to work, you aren't financially secure.
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