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Why Cars Have Become So Difficult --- & Expensive to Repair

online.wsj.com — In their quest to make cars safer, lighter & more fuel efficient, car makers are using more exotic materials in the bodies of vehicles. That presents a challenge to body repair shops, because technicians now can't just assume that the metal they are cutting or welding is old-fashioned steel...

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  • Steinr, on 03/31/2008, -10/+3Great :( , now what's the solution? I don't want to be out of pocket just because I drive safe car!
    • johnnynapalm, on 03/31/2008, -10/+1To be "out of pocket" means to be unavailable for contact, e.g. communication.
      • TheRedCoat, on 03/31/2008, -1/+10not in my world it doesn't
      • Steinr, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4and I quote:
        "out of pocket
        adjective (also out-of-pocket)
        of, pertaining to, or requiring a cash expenditure : out of pocket expenses [as adv. ] paying for office visits out of pocket.
        • suffering from a financial loss : even after our payment, he is still out of pocket."

        Apple Dictionary
        • Godlike, on 03/31/2008, -1/+4OP is still wrong.
          • fkr3, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2In Australia the expression just means you had to pay the bill.
          • sienar, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2flkr3, that's what it means in the states too, i've never heard the phrase used to mean someone is out of contact
        • Steinr, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2can't win...
      • Godlike, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1IT MEANS that you had to pay cash out of what money you have, and that you didn't purchase it on credit.

        For example, if you buy a car with 'no out of pocket' you didn't pay anything down or pay for title, license, tax, etc and the dealer covered that for you or got it out of the value of the loan - i.e. no money came from your pocket, just the banks.

        We used to call it 'packing the cheese in' because it was really easy to hide the cost of a warranty into something that looked like no out of pocket and take the huge commission on it. (would you like cheese with that...)
    • doctechnical, on 03/31/2008, -2/+311) Efficiency
      2) Safety
      3) Cheap to fix
      Pick two.
      • Wargalas, on 03/31/2008, -5/+13I'll take the top two and buy a Honda. They generally run forever, so they won't have to be fixed as often.
        • Godlike, on 03/31/2008, -8/+8Oh do they run forever? Is that why Honda can still sell new Honda's, because they run forever and everyone on earth doesn't have one yet?
          • luchid, on 03/31/2008, -4/+3Please think before you post. Do you really think that even if they DID run forever everyone would still keep their 1989 model?
          • theuber1337, on 03/31/2008, -1/+4I would. Newer cars depreciate too fast to just buy whenever the mood is in the air.
          • Wargalas, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2Actually Luchid, I still have my 1989 CRX Si. :) Put a B16A engine in it and now it's my project car. :)
          • Godlike, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3I want a CRX so bad... hell yes I would keep their 1990s model *****!
          • NoNom, on 03/31/2008, -0/+41) Most people buy new cars based upon appearance, not functionality
            2) Never underestimate a person's ability to break something
          • KingGorilla, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1I take it you're not a fan of hyperboles
        • MrMongoose, on 03/31/2008, -6/+2And as long as it's a 4-cylinder, you can still do pretty much all the maintenance on it yourself, including rebuilding the engine. Things aren't THAT far gone, as this article article would lead you to believe.
          • FireStrife, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2I dont think being 4 cylinder has anything to do with the ease of maintenance. It really comes down to engine and chassis design and where and what is placed. Like changing oil can be a snap if the filter and plug are placed in a good location. If not then it makes the difficultly go up. All engines require the same maintenance, its just with bigger engines and more cylinders you have to spend more and do more because of the extra liters and cylinders.
          • vagrantradio, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3That is the most un-informed, generalized statement I have heard in a long time. The addition of two more cylinders and some valves does not make it any more complicated...
          • MrMongoose, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3No, but positioning those cylinders in a V and cramming it sideways into a FWD chassis does. Plus the aftermarket is a lot smaller for those engines, people aren't that interested in modifying them.
          • cheeselord, on 03/31/2008, -4/+3Why would you want to modify a 4 cylinder civic...

            Rice much?
          • FireStrife, on 03/31/2008, -1/+1Why do you make such stupid comments

            Stupid much?
        • zebula234, on 03/31/2008, -1/+3Thats why I drive a Toyota. I got a 93 toyota corolla in 99 for $2500 that had 110000 miles on it. Changed the brakes/tires about once and oil every 5k miles or so. Sold it when it had 220000 miles on it for 1k, bought a 99 corolla for 4k a few years ago that had 55K miles on it. Has 90K now, changed the tires once and the brakes once.... never had any other problems with them. I know the guy who has the 93 corolla and he is still driving it at 240K (still gets 35-40MPG)
          • InspectorGadget, on 03/31/2008, -1/+3I guess greenpenis is the new e-penis.
        • LvsSocer, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1I love how you pulled that out of your ass. Honda's generally are _not_ safe. Most smaller Asian and American made vehicles found in the US simply aren't, they sacrifice too much in bringing down cost.
          If you want a safe car, you're either going to have to get a European car (Benz, BMW), one of it's Asian/American competitor's matching brands (Lexus, Cadillac), or a very large car (SUV).

          But hey.. don't trust me... look at the safety number for yourself.
          http://www.iihs.org/sr/pdfs/sr4204.pdf
      • fishface, on 03/31/2008, -1/+1Pick 1 and 2 and lease the car if you're worried about always having the newest safety features
      • shredswithpiks, on 03/31/2008, -1/+9>___< this saying in the racing enthusiast world:

        -cheap
        -reliable
        -fast

        pick two
      • theuber1337, on 03/31/2008, -7/+4I'll take cheap to fix and safe to drive, (as in big and not made of plastic), like an old Cadillac. I don't buy cars built after 1990.
        • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -2/+7Big doesn't automatically equal safe. Most newer cars are much safer than older cars. If a car can "take a hit" and not be damaged, it is likely transferring the force to the driver and passengers. Newer cars will crumple in a predictable manner thus absorbing much of the energy from impact before it hurt the occupants.
        • carpespasm, on 03/31/2008, -1/+3yeah, tell someone who's had their legs cut off at the knee by a lead sled about their safety.
        • theuber1337, on 03/31/2008, -1/+1This is true in some cases. However, the car I'm referring to in my previous post, "an old Cadillac," has a crash test rating of 5.

          "The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) tests a vehicle's worthiness in front- and side-impact collisions and rates its resistance to rollovers. Front-impact crash-test numbers indicate the chance of serious injury: 5 = 10% or less..."

          This is true in many of the old model Cadillacs.
      • Light11, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1pick 1 and 3 and your driving a scooter :D
    • shotgunefx, on 03/31/2008, -0/+8It's not just due to efficiency or form factor, a lot of it is cutting corners to save money and other things, just bad design.

      As a for instance, the rear interior bulbs in my car are hard to get at, in a very narrow slot. You can't really hold the bulb and put it in. The kicker is, the receptacle has no back, so if the spring contacts pop the bulb out, or you grip slips, which happens 9 out of 10 times you try to fit a bulb in there, they fall inside the damn pillar and bounce to God knows where. I've had most of my car apart at one time or another and still haven't found their resting place. Just bad design.

      The other bitch is my back 3 y spark plugs are covered by the intake manifold. So taking it to a shop to change my plugs, instead of being $50-$70, is near $400 as they have to remove various sensors, the fuel rail, EGR valve, intake piping etc. Needless to say, I wasn't up for that and did it myself, but I can see why they charge so much. That's form factor, and possibly a little bit of bad design.


      • shotgunefx, on 03/31/2008, -0/+9Damn it, digg gave an error half through, ok, back to retyping.

        Anyway, the relays for the directionals and whatnot, are instead of having their own sockets, integrated into one of the car ECUs (car computers), so if one happens to blow, you need to replace the whole unit ($1000), no reason to place a $2 part with a finite mechanical life inside a super expensive component, except to save a small amount of money on wire and plastic for a relay socket. That's cutting corners
        • carpespasm, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1"no reason to place a $2 part with a finite mechanical life inside a super expensive component"
          Except to be able to squeeze an aditional 1998 dollars out of you when you have a blinker go out.
    • FatherVic, on 03/31/2008, -3/+7I am sure that costs have nothing to do with Union and the cost of having unions.
      Someone once said that the Auto Industry is the largest healthcare provider whose byproduct is automobiles.
      • doctechnical, on 03/31/2008, -3/+6Um, what role did the UAW play in the design of the car? I don't think the guy running the spot-welder had a whole lot to say about what material to make the car out of, or where the intake manifold should go.
        • raidfibre, on 03/31/2008, -2/+3He doesn't, his union does indirectly.
    • prleet, on 03/31/2008, -4/+3Safety isn't depended on safe cars, its depended on the operator and that includes operators of any machinery.
      • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -1/+4What if someone t-bones your car while going through an intersection? How is the "operator " supposed to avoid that?
      • wellyuk, on 03/31/2008, -1/+3What if someone prangs you from behind? How is the "operator" supposed to avoid that?

        Anyone else?
      • turpenine, on 03/31/2008, -2/+1buy a volvo.
    • bluedino, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3You shouldn't have to pay any additional out of pocket for collision repairs. I work in the industry and we pay to bring vehicles to pre loss condition regardless of panel material.
  • pianomahnn, on 03/31/2008, -4/+44I recently sold my VW Jetta, but had to replace the battery before. The manual suggested I take it to a dealership to get the job done. I found this suggestion unreasonable. I need a dealership mechanic to change the battery?! An hour later I understood why. Bleh.
    • doctechnical, on 03/31/2008, -0/+33I feel your pain. On my Intrepid you had to remove the front left wheel to get the battery out. WTF?
      • Godlike, on 03/31/2008, -0/+16There is no way that ***** wasn't done on purpose... I know what you are talking about and the intrepid was designed by someone who HATES mechanics.
        • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4So...Chrysler in general? They're utter crap. Their 3.3 and 3.8L v6 leaks oil after 30k miles. Every single one of them!
      • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -2/+2It isn't completely without reason. The battery is in the fender to keep it away from the engine heat. Heat kills batteries. Other automakers but batteries in the trunk or under the back seat (which also has disadvantages).
        • rotten777, on 03/31/2008, -1/+4It isn't THAT hot in the engine bay. If it were, all the cars with the batteries close to the exhaust manifold would have destroyed batteries.
          • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -3/+1It doesn't kill it immediately. Heat is often the cause of a dead battery. Batteries that are kept cool last a lot longer. If a battery dies in the winter, the damage can usually be attributed to the heat from the summer. It isn't noticed until winter because a cold engine imposes a greater load on the starter and battery.
      • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -2/+2I was just gonna comment on that. That vehicle is the BIGGEST pain in the ass to replace the battery. I've replaced batteries on every make and model and there's no comparison!
        • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2I have replaced thousands of batteries and the dust-buster Lumina minivan with the windshield washer fluid holder mounted on the engine brace is at the top of my list.
          • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1eh...you might be right. They're pretty close honestly. If you know how to get the clips out without breaking them its not that bad. Ridiculous yes, but at least you don't have to jack the vehicle up. Besides, if the battery overheats it melts the reservoir and douses the battery lol.
    • bubbadoo989, on 03/31/2008, -0/+13No coincidence. Do the math on min. 1 hr. service labor @ $100/hr (remember, these are dealers). Installing a new battery will run $250 or more, which is ridiculous.

      Look at cars like today's popular Mazda's. I walked out of the stealership when the sales guy told me I couldn't change the oil, but had to bring the car to the dealer for a service visit. Talk about leaching cash.

      OTOH, there are car manufacturers like Audi and BMW that pay for 3 yrs of regular maintenance (not sure if they still do this). This is fine, except, how do you really get to know your car, if you can change the oil?
      • PhantomZmoove, on 03/31/2008, -0/+7Heh, I almost didn't notice your theft ship in there, nice. :)
      • iii9ix3, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2I have a 2007 Mazdaspeed3 and i change my own oil.....
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0My ex's dad had a MB ML320. When maintenance was complimentary the service schedule is, if I remember correctly, oil change about every 12000 miles or ONCE a year for an oil change. The REGULAR service schedule. And they were supposed to do it when the light came on the dash. Once complimentary service was over they were told it needed oil change 3000 miles or every 3 months as it was on SEVERE usage maintenance schedule from then on, according to the dealer.
        If I have warranty on a car I'll have the dealer change the oil. In case something happens they can't blame me for that and make me prove the oil was changed. Its only $35. I get to mess around in new cars, test drive some and then pick up a washed car.
        I remember Toyota having problems will ALL of their 3.0 liter V6s (all vehicles that used that engine, including Lexus). People were told to prove the oil was change according to the maintenance schedule or the warranty would not cover fixing/replacing the engine. After class action suit Toyota customers with the engines in question were informed about a "customer satisfaction survey", or if it were a domestic brand, a RECALL to fix the car so engine won't break.
    • capandjudy, on 03/31/2008, -7/+4My brother had to take his daughter's VW Beetle to the dealer for virtually any sort of repair no matter how routine. He says that he will not buy another.
      • StuartQF, on 03/31/2008, -0/+7That sounds like more of a dealer ripping him off than Volkswagen designing their cars not to be serviceable...
      • Mr8lack, on 03/31/2008, -0/+5He probably shouldn't buy any car then because they all require maintenance... and if you don't maintain them, they need repair.
      • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4I hate to, but I have to actually stick up for your brother on this one. This is ENTIRELY dependent on the model...but some of their cars are just impossible to work on. Their higher line performance vehicles that have a huge engine just crammed into them as forward as possible are ridiculous, it'd be a chore just to change a simple belt or swap out the water pump/alternator. Another thing is that VW/Audi is the only manufacturer that I'm aware of that doesn't use the standardized OBD2 plug. This means that every simple standard diagnostic such as reading the trouble codes (something you can get for FREE at almost every parts store) will cost you $100 some at a dealership!!! For crying out loud even a freaking oil change requires some major disassembly of body panels...
        • wattersm, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1If you get an oil extractor changing it is a lot easier, even without one it's not that hard, drop the belly pan and drain it.
      • Heywoodj, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4Don't know why your getting dug down.
        ANY mechanic will tell you VW hasn't deserved their reputation for quality in years.
        And the new Beetle is a true pain in the ass to work on.
    • Mr8lack, on 03/31/2008, -3/+12funny cause i've taken the battery out of my jetta numerous times.... all it takes is 1 bolt
      • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -1/+9I'm just SURE its the same model and year because ALL vehicles operate the same
        • turpenine, on 03/31/2008, -3/+1jettas have been really similar since the 80s.
          • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -1/+2So they all have the same engine number? Take the same battery and have the same restraint system? Oh I stand corrected then. Apparently you know more than I do. I've only been working in the automotive field for three years you jackass... Just because it says "VW Jetta" doesn't mean its the same under the hood/body.
    • lordno, on 03/31/2008, -3/+4I used to own a Jetta and when I went to Auto Zone to replace the battery it is so complicated the workers are not allowed to replace it.
    • honesttussey, on 03/31/2008, -2/+4this whole article is *****. It cites on reference, he was working on his daughters chevrolet and it took him 45 minutes to change a headlight. That's just poor engineering. And I own a 2000 Jetta and I've replaced the battery dozens of times, take apart the entire interior installed a full sound system, and even replace headlights and taillights. Sounds like most of the diggers on here and in this article aren't very mechanically inclined.
      • wbeavis, on 03/31/2008, -2/+9Dude, I'm no expert, but if you've had to replace the battery dozens (read more than 24 times) of times on a 2000 vehicle you may have an electrical short somewhere.
        • fotbr, on 03/31/2008, -1/+4Or honesttussey is an idiot and didn't install a 2nd battery for the "full sound system".
    • blacktriangle, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2$100 per hour is why its called the 'stealership', not the dealership.
    • Amazetbm, on 04/08/2008, -0/+1I had to change the battery in a friend's Jetta. I was going on the assumption that VW still followed the "ease of repair" mantra that they used to have with the original air cooled engines. The joke was on me. I had an easier time changing the Battery in my 7-series.
  • hockeysmurf, on 03/31/2008, -9/+3Yep, this and the fact that they make an otherwise normal transmission so ridiculously complicated that the average person cannot fix them.
    • phybere, on 03/31/2008, -0/+14normal transmissions are ridiculously complicated by nature, not because someone decided they should be (which is why people typically replace them rather than fix them)
  • rhkenji, on 03/31/2008, -1/+14Life > Money
  • gen2ux, on 03/31/2008, -1/+8Don't try to do anything on an European Vehicle. CANBUS is awesome (VAG-COM)...but not for someone who has trouble changing a light bulb.
  • cslewisster, on 03/31/2008, -16/+1It does cost way too much to repair cars these days.

    I found a report that my local news did on this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU
    • lnxfi, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4Just a guess - but I bet that's a Rick Roll link.
      • Steinr, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3yeah that is the 3rd time today the same youtube link is in a digg comment.
        • Godlike, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3Why doesn't digg scan/ban those?
          • fkr3, on 03/31/2008, -0/+6The kidiots would cry censorship and proclaim digg to be just as evil as Nazi Germany, while describing themselves as Ghandi and MLK combined.
          • sourceholder, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1WOW, my comment is six levels deep.
          • Godlike, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Try again it stops at five. How is preventing ***** from posting that ***** censorship? If it means the removal of ***** and nothing else then it's time for a little good old fashiound censorin!
          • fkr3, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1I'm not saying it is censorship, I'm saying the retards will scream that it's censorship and their precious imaginary rights they won on the internets are being anally violated.
  • badqat, on 03/31/2008, -1/+14Changing a headlight in an HHR isn't nearly as difficult as described. You have to remove one bolt, and two or three fasteners. The assembly can be brought outside of the panel, so doing it by "feel" is just silly. There is also no reason to be on your back while doing it.
    • wertach, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2I don't know about the HHR but the later model GM's headlight bulbs are extremely easy to replace. The ones I have worked on anyway. You just pull a couple of pins, the assembly comes out. Takes about 2 minutes and no tools!
      • wbeavis, on 03/31/2008, -0/+0A hammer and some clear tape, I can beat your 2 minutes.
      • ThaDRD, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Good thing they are easy to replace, I always see Chevy/GMC trucks with one of the daytime running lights burned out.
    • wrxpert, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2As I was reading this I thought that there was no way the headlight is that hard. Most headlight assemblies are actually made very easy to replace now days.
      • badqat, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2The HHR is hard to do. It's a trade off they made in terms of the design of the car. But, it is nowhere near as hard as he made it.

        Conversely, the placement of the oil filter is a boon...it's so easy too replace it's laughable.
  • slvrbullet87, on 03/31/2008, -1/+12Not to mention if you hit something you have to replace half of the car because you cant knock out a small dent anymore.
    • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2Can you give an example of this? Many small dents can be removed without filling and painting.
      • carpespasm, on 03/31/2008, -1/+1I think he's referring more to the thickness of the sheet metal in body panels. When my ex bounced off a guard rail a couple years ago it nearly totalled the car and needed major work and labor to get road-worthy again when it would have been something you could fix with a hammer and some bondo on an older vehicle
        • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1A small dent is a small dent.
        • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0I thought I had a "small dent". The place that removes the dents without painting said a "small dent" is 5mm in diameter.
          I dont even bother with those.
    • cheeselord, on 03/31/2008, -2/+0Oldfag. Not that I expect you to see where your blind ass is going, but hitting things should be avoided. GTFO
    • digggggggggg, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Right, because a surprising number of body parts are made out of plastic nowadays. You nicked the bumper? You can't just buff that out. It needs to be replaced.

  • logicalnoise, on 03/31/2008, -0/+6his lightbulb problems sounds pretty terrible compared to my 5 minute install on my toyota camry 99'(pop hood, twist old bulb out of housing, unplug old bulb, plug in new bulb, twist new bulb into housing shut hood, watch BSG). But yeah cars may go the way of TVs and soon become lost causes once damaged even by 20%. Though that would be deathly wasteful.
    • badqat, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3He made it a whole lot worse than it really is. He didn't follow the instructions. And there was no reason for him to be laying on his back.

      But, compared to automobiles where it's a situation like your Camry, it is pretty horrible.
  • DJCamCam78, on 03/31/2008, -2/+7Mechanics have to go back to school to learn about new computers and new engines in these new fangled cars, call me shocked!
  • bwhite, on 03/31/2008, -8/+26Ride a bicycle. You'll thank yourself.
    • WolfDV, on 03/31/2008, -11/+6i'd rather be instide the moving vehicle than the guy being hit or ran of the road by said vehicle.

    • tnoy, on 03/31/2008, -1/+16I should ride my bike 40 miles to work every morning?

      Pass.
      • dood, on 03/31/2008, -1/+6Ideally one wouldn't live 40 miles away from work. I know there are factors that make this difficult, but living near work is a healthy goal.
      • jbcsee, on 03/31/2008, -0/+5You commute 80 miles every day?! I recently (five weeks ago) got a new job that is 43.2 miles from my apartment. My old job was one mile from my place and I walked every day, rain or shine. Within three days of getting the new job I decided to get a new place within biking distance of my new office. Of course I don't move into the new place until this weekend, but I am so happy that the commute is finally over.

        Why you may ask? Commuting via car is too stressful. I have either biked or walked to work for the last seven years, even when I lived 20 miles from the office I just biked it and showered when I got in. The morning and evening exercise is good for you. It relieves stress and relaxes you. Now I sit in the car doing nothing except getting pissed about traffic for three hours a day. A waste of time where I risk life and limb. At least on the bike I am risking life and limb and getting some health benefits out of the deal.
    • and303, on 03/31/2008, -2/+11Not when it is -10F outside.
      • mst3kcrow, on 03/31/2008, -1/+5-20F here on a regular basis during the winter, sometimes it gets down to -30F.
    • itsthebrod, on 03/31/2008, -3/+5No thanks. Bad weather? No bike. Going to the store or anywhere else where you need to bring >1 belonging with you? No bike. Need to transport your friend(s)? No bike. Need to travel more than a few miles? No bike.

      I thank myself each and every day for owning a car.
      • SwamiG, on 03/31/2008, -5/+4"I thank myself each and every day for owning a car."

        The mantra of millions of ignorant, overweight, wasteful Americans. Go USA!
        • itsthebrod, on 03/31/2008, -1/+2When you come and live in my city and know MY personal needs and requirements, then you can criticize. Until then, go ***** yourself with your idiotic generalizations.
      • billbillbilly, on 03/31/2008, -5/+4Bad weather? wear raingear/warm clothes. Going to the store or anywhere else where you need to bring >1 belonging with you? backpack/rack/saddle bags. Need to transport your friend(s)? they have their own bikes dont they?. Need to travel more than a few miles? give your self a little extra time or figure out a shorter more efficient
      • jbcsee, on 03/31/2008, -3/+3You can easily cover distances up to 10 miles in about the same time it takes in a car, assuming that is not 10 miles on the freeway. As for carrying things, this weekend I saw a women transporting a 20' potted tree via bicycle. For small things like groceries you can use a backpack, for larger things use a trailer.
        • fotbr, on 03/31/2008, -3/+2Sorry, no bicycle is going to keep up with a typical commute around here, while still obeying traffic laws. Why? Even on a "bad" morning, hitting 2-3 red traffic lights out of 6 in 8 miles (bicycles are, by law, required to obey traffic signals here, though I realize thats not the case everywhere), the simple matter is that I can do 45 mph uphill, and a bicyclist cannot.

          Now, the drive home, being mostly downhill, a bicyclist *might* be able to keep up most of the way.
        • conrail, on 04/01/2008, -0/+1yeah, right. Bicyclists obeying traffic laws. That'll be the day.
        • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0I almost ran over a guy on bike on purpose because he didn't stop at his stop sign after I did at mine. He was on the road, I had a right of way.
          He fell but didn't damage my car.
      • Campog, on 03/31/2008, -1/+1I have a handy little invention you may not have heard of, it's called a trailer. It only came out about a millennium ago, so you can be forgiven for not hearing about it. I can take my bike to the grocery store for my weekly shopping trip and easily carry everything back.
        • itsthebrod, on 03/31/2008, -1/+1That's the gayest thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
    • wattersm, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1What do you do when you get to work all sweaty and stinky? And no, we don't have showers at work.
      • conrail, on 04/01/2008, -0/+1Obviously, in addition to a new home, you need a new job.
        • wattersm, on 04/05/2008, -0/+1Nah, I like my job and I've been there 5 years so I don't have any plans to leave.
  • ExRe, on 03/31/2008, -0/+7It's quite simple really. The more difficult it is to do repairs the more people will have to take their cars in for repairs.

    There can be absolutely no other reason for it, I've worked on plenty of cars and things that should only take a few minutes can take a very long time because they decided to put one of the mounting screws (that isn't even needed) below about 4 other things that need to be taken off before you can get to it.
    • BoneheadFarker, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3"The more difficult it is to do repairs the more people will have to take their cars in for repairs...."

      ...to the dealership rather then an independant mechanic that will charge less and are willing to use after-market parts.

      It not just that customers can't repair their own cars anymore. Regular independant mechanics are getting screwed because they may not have the skills needed to fix a car anymore, and can't gain the knowledge without jumping through hoops that the car companies setup. While mechanics have a bad reputation for ripping people off, they don't hold a candle to what the car companies are doing...

      And appropriately, my CAPTCHA for this post is GmrH8...
      • rotten777, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3He speaks the truth. I am good friends with a guy who has run a transmission shop for 20+ years who now has to pay literally thousands of dollars just for a peek into manuals about auto transmissions and big bucks to have newer transmissions programmed. It is a market designed to push out the small garage types and give all the service work to franchises.
    • wbeavis, on 03/31/2008, -0/+0There is another reason. A move towards disposability. The cheaper an item is, the more likely it will be replaced over being repaired. When's the last time you heard of a VCR being repaired, or a DVD player? Sure sink a grand in a DVD player, you might opt to get it fixed. Spend $50 on a DVD player and it becomes disposable. Low end cars may make that tend a reality. If you bought a brand new car for $5,000 (as an example) and it drives great for 3+ years. Then it requires $1,500+ in transmission repairs. Would you fix it or trade it for another new one?
      • fotbr, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Find me a most-states legal (I'll be generous and say you don't have to meet california emissions for CA and other states using CA's requirements) brand new car for $5k cash (no trade in, no leases).

        That's what I thought. The "low end" is still significantly more expensive than your example.
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0The way to go is pick up a transmission (couple hundred) used and just have it replaced. No need to fix it
  • TexasShiv, on 03/31/2008, -9/+3Try changing a tire on a BMW. If it were dark, and you hadn't done it before, you'd be calling triple A without a doubt
    • petrodollar, on 03/31/2008, -0/+5So if you have enough light and know how to change a tire it's not a big deal?
    • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Doesn't the BMW have road side assistance for a couple of years after the date of purchase? I have it on my auto insurance and it only adds a few bucks.
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0Have you ever used it?
        I had roadside assistance and needed to tow my car twice. Every time it was 2+ hours wait in the middle of the night as they could not find a tow truck that would work with them. 2nd time I asked them if I had it towed by myself and had them reinmburst me the money as they could not find any one to help me.
  • touch0ph, on 03/31/2008, -2/+2It's not just body work but many of the computers used to read the error codes cost so much (from the manufacturer) that many shops cannot afford them. If they do buy the computers, the charges will be reflected in your bill.
    • myrddin97, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1How come I can go to the store and get a low end consumer computer for $50-60? A professional version will cost more, but unless the ownership/management are completely bull-headed, these should be considered neccessary equipment for doing buisness.
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0Yeah but that computer can get only generic emission codes.
        If you wanna diagnose in depth, something like intermittent misfire you need dealer's computer than can communicate over various car computers connected on the network and right software that will work with your car's firmware version.
  • justananomaly, on 03/31/2008, -2/+29I can take an operating system apart file by file and put it back together I can take any computer hardware apart and put it back together peice by peice I can tell if my car is on E or F and.. thats about it.
    In summery, they charge me $400 for something that was never broke,
    I charge them $400 to reinstall their OS because of "spyware" and use their original key.
    Life works in great ways sometimes.
    • rotten777, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4What? You charge car companies to reinstall operating systems?
      • justananomaly, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3You would be surprised how much money there actually is being a freelance network admin/pc repairmen when you actually start getting local reputation.
        • bowe, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1You always reinstall an operating system because of spyware? Spyware isn't usually such a big problem that you need to do a full reinstall.
          • justananomaly, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1No, just for people who overcharged me for something earlier in life like automotive repair groups and stuff
    • TheUngod, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4Main difference is you get to sit on your ass and read digg while performing your service. Thus why Computer guy > mechanic
  • wheresjim, on 03/31/2008, -2/+11I did my timing belt on my Passat a couple of weeks ago and to do so you have to pretty much remove the front on the car to put the radiator support in "Service Position" which is basically six inches forward so you have room to get at the timing belt. Between that procedure and the stupid bolts that kept stripping I longed for the days when I had a Buick.
    • Mr8lack, on 03/31/2008, -1/+9umm a timing belt is a big undertaking ... a little different than changing a lightbulb
    • MrMongoose, on 03/31/2008, -1/+4Changing the timing belt on my engine is an all-day job, unless you have the engine already yanked out.
    • forcedfx, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4Sweet, now you can come over and do the one on my girlfriend's Passat. I rebuilt the engine on my Hyundai Tiburon from the bare block up but I won't touch her car. Even changing the oil is a PITA.
    • wrxpert, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3Yeah you only have to replace a timing belt ever 90K or so. It is defiantly something that should take a long time. I recently did mine on my Subaru. It was surprisingly easy and only took just over 3 hours. Modern Subaru's are incredibly easy to work on.
      • 4thcage, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1I've got my Impreza belt changed too in about three hours, even changed the water pump, pulleys and tensioner. Even changing oil on a subaru is easy, filter is just right under!
  • therealkdog, on 03/31/2008, -2/+2I have yet to read the article , but they want to keep themselfs in buisness, make ***** their way, you have to come to them for repairs, replacement parts. They are here to make money, and thats how you make the most, keep you coming back.
    • hakamanakus, on 04/01/2008, -0/+1I always thought coming back meant buying another new car from them, thanks for the clarification.
  • ArachnidDude, on 03/31/2008, -9/+7In my driveway. 96 Explorer, 97 Chevy Pickup, 67 Mustang. All doing fine and dandy. Problem solved.. for now.
    • WolfDV, on 03/31/2008, -3/+11so the secret is to buy non-modern cheap domestic vehicles?
      • Langford, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4Rear wheel drive, large vehicles. It's funny to make fun, buy he is right about having easier vehicles to work on. He won't save gas, but the price of a new car can buy an awful lot of gas.
    • Mr8lack, on 03/31/2008, -6/+6by "driveway" you mean "the front yard" and by "fine and dandy" you mean "up on cinder blocks", right?
      • ArachnidDude, on 03/31/2008, -1/+0This one's good though. LOL. I dugg you up.
    • petrodollar, on 03/31/2008, -7/+2What part of the south do you live in?
    • and303, on 03/31/2008, -7/+4Do you live in Arkansas?
      • petrodollar, on 03/31/2008, -3/+2I was just in Houston this past week and couldn't get over the number of people driving *****-ass ***** like Mustangs and Taurus SHOs. Only in River Oaks did I see people driving respectable, well engineered sports cars.
        • thanakar, on 03/31/2008, -3/+3Mustangs are not '*****-ass *****'
          • petrodollar, on 03/31/2008, -2/+2They are after you put 30k miles on them.
    • neonsox, on 03/31/2008, -5/+1Found On Road Dead. Fix Or Repair Daily. Fifth On Race Day. Ford sucks.

      Shall I go on?
    • digggggggggg, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3Gotta love vintage cars. Nothing you can't fix with bailer wire and duct tape.
    • ArachnidDude, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Man. I love all you presumptuous asses. Ok, yeah I live in Texas, I guess that explains my penchant for wise decisions. Like the fact that I live 1 mile from my place of work. All three of my '*****' see a total of about 6000 miles a year. And I do get out.

      Yeah man, Ford really sucks. That's why my 67' mustang is older than me, and could likely run circles around every one of your cars, rickety suspension and all. But that's just my toy anyway.

      So how many of you dickweeds can say you drive an average of 15 miles a week. That's what I thought.
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0I'm surprised how many people are turned off when they find out my LS has a V8. But then we find out that even thought I get less MPG, my commutes are a lot less and I fill up every 10 days when they have to do it every 5 in their POS rice burners, therefore I use less gas
  • srodolff, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3I didn't realize that cutting and welding were required when doing normal routine maintenance. The real reason that it costs so much is because it is a moneymaker for the service companies. Check your bill next time you are in. What is the single biggest expense listed? LABOR! And let's guess if the technicians are even closely paid that scale. Pretty much useless article.

    • XxtraLarGe, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4This is exactly why I'm taking an Automotive General Service course at my local community college on the weekends. I have 2 old cars, and every time we take them in to get fixed, the auto mechs seem to find something else wrong with them, suddenly you're looking at several hundred dollars in repairs for what seems to be minor problems. Even if I don't learn how to fix all of my own car problems, I'll at least know enough so they can't pull the wool over my eyes when I go there.
  • TheG2, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Considering a lot of work I just did on my Nissan, I can safely say its definitely getting harder to do the work yourself, hopefully these steps by GM will help keep do it yourself alive in the future.
    • JointVenture, on 03/31/2008, -1/+6its the buying one tool for 50 bucks for a 15min job that pisses me off.
      • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2Many auto parts stores in my area will loan you tools for free if you buy the parts from them.
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0Autozone rents "special" tools (spring compressors, for example) for free. You don't even have to buy anything from them
  • ancalagon73, on 03/31/2008, -1/+25Several years ago a friend asked me to help him change a water pump in his mini-van. Open up the Chilton's manual and what was step one? Remove the engine. Are you kidding me?
    • davidrools, on 03/31/2008, -0/+12Chiltons manuals are useless. Get the factory manual from the dealer. It's well worth it.
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0get it from eBay on CD/DVD. Best $10 I spent
    • diggitydoc, on 03/31/2008, -0/+10minivans have NO room in the engine compartment, and have you ever seen the location of almost any water pump?
      they are always hard to get to.
    • reyalp, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1skip the Chilton manual and go for the Haynes manual.
    • nitrojunky24, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1why I prefer a rear wheel drive car. (not easy mind you but defiantly easer)
  • weyr, on 03/31/2008, -5/+6I don't know about the rest of you but I would rather have a safer, more fuel efficient car than one that is easier to work on. The simple things, like replacing a head light, should be a lot easier than this article made it sound, but I don't mind having to take my car in for repairs and pay a bit more for the increased fuel millage and safety I get from my vehicle
    • liveforthehunt, on 03/31/2008, -0/+7Let me translate the comment above...

      I don't mind taking it up the bum so long as they give me a piece of candy afterwards!
    • rotten777, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3This is not an issue about having your cake and eating it too. Designers can be pushed to build vehicles in a modular, simple way, while still using fuel efficient and modern parts.
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0But then that vehicle won't be able to compete with price in its class.
        They could do that, but no one will buy it.
    • scamper22, on 03/31/2008, -0/+0"simple things, like replacing a head light, should be"
      they key word being 'should be'. My first car I bought was a nissan altima. Nice car, never broke down on me.

      yet, one day I had to change the headlights...figured I could do it myself. Bought the bulbs... got the manuals...and the bloody thing is impossible. You literally had to remove the entire headlight unit, remove the battery, take out like 10 bolts... My parents corolla was never this complicated, you can replace the bulb directly.

      I didn't want to screw anything up, so i took it to my mechanic.

      Needless to say...the next car I'm buying I'm asking the dealer
      "how do I change the oil?"
      "how do I change the headlight bulb?"...

      I guess that's the lesson of buying a first car :)

      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0just pull the headlight fuse out for extra safety, no need to disconnect or remove battery.
  • thedrue, on 03/31/2008, -2/+4The manufacturers that warrantee the cars lose money if it takes too long to make a simple repair. They don't just build it so they will be the only one to work on it. It seems to be that cars haven't really gotten lighter... sure some older cars were just huge but most of the Japanese imports have grown considerably in both size and weight. I wish they were still building a small SUV like the old 4runners or the civics were still tin cans getting 58 mpg. Safety regulations have done nothing but increase the size and weight of perfectly good cars. I don't own any car newer than 1987 and Im glad for it, bulletproof and easy to work on.
    • BinaryFragger, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Cars are getting heavier for several reasons. One of the reasons are the safety regulations, as you mentioned; crumple zones and reinforcements in the doors and pillars are heavy.
      Also, modern cars have a lot more equipment. By themselves, air conditioning, sunroof, sound system, sound suppressing materials and the various computers (ABS, traction control, etc) aren't terribly heavy, but when you add them all up, all the gadgets can add hundreds of pounds of weight. They'res a reason that high-performance cars (such as the Porsche 911 GT3) have most of their luxuries removed.
  • antonio97b, on 03/31/2008, -3/+12Engine bays are filled with too much PLASTIC! ***** christ. Ever look under the hood of these new vehicles? So much plastic and rubber you'd think the engine was built out of it. Too many accesories. My Datsun 510 has 2 things on the accessory belt, water pump and altranator. Todays engines have water pump, altrenator, power steering pump, and A/C. ABS systems need to be fitted in. In the old days there used to be one size of battery that was needed. Now newer cars are fitted with smaller batteries to save room. oil filters have been shrunk too. In my 03 civic, it is the biggest bitch to change the filter (and I work on a lot on my cars). In order to change the filter I have to get underneath the car and reach past the drain pan RIGHT NEXT to the oil drain plug. Which means that oil is dripping down my armpit while I take filter wrench to it. I have to stick my whole arm up the engine bay, I can't see it without a light. So... while I'm working in such low light conditions I have reach wrench it out. if the filter right on top of the drain plug that is already leaking down my arm, take a guess at to what happens when I unscrew the filter? Yeah. It's all over me and whatever I was wearing is ruined EVERYTIME.
    • wertach, on 03/31/2008, -5/+2I dugg ya on it because I agree its a pain. But maybe you should try removing the filter before the drain plug?
      • conrail, on 04/01/2008, -0/+1or put the plug back after draining out the oil.
    • dantelephoneman, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4Dugg for the Datsun 510
    • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -0/+5Many older cars used to have around 5 belts, each with their own adjustment. Most modern engines use a serpentine belt with a tensioner pulley. I take the latter.
    • cheeselord, on 03/31/2008, -3/+0Dug down for more oldfagitry. Somehow I doubt the old days were better.
    • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0so much for the great imports design
  • Mr8lack, on 03/31/2008, -9/+8This sounds like an upscale yuppie whining about how he can't change his lightbulb on his car to save a buck. You have the white collar job, you make the big bucks, stop whining about how you cant save more money.
    btw I don't have lots of $$$ so i take the time to learn how to service my car.
  • TaintDeli, on 03/31/2008, -2/+6If it weren't for DRLs you wouldn't be changing a bulb on an HHR already
  • JointVenture, on 03/31/2008, -9/+8Welcome to the world of socialist regulation. Just wait till you see what they are going to do to you with health care, the federal reserve, reparations, welfare, housing mortgage crisis.

    Dont worry folks, you arent responsible for anything! The government will make you safe!
    • dood, on 03/31/2008, -2/+7What does a corporation choosing to make their vehicles unnecessarily complicated have to do with socialist regulations? Was this posted on the wrong article?
      • mriegger, on 03/31/2008, -1/+4Some people see politics everywhere
    • BruceDude, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1JointVenture es LOCO!
  • Langford, on 03/31/2008, -4/+6Rear wheel drive is generally a lot cheaper and easier to fix, at least as far as the drive train is concerned. This is part of why there is a bit of an obsession with trucks in Texas. It's not so much the macho status, as it is the difficulty in getting decent rear wheel drive cars new. Many front wheel drive vehicles are considered disposable, because once it breaks down it's not worth fixing. Of course one downside to a rear wheel drive car or truck is the weight, which effects fuel consumption. Also, regardless of front, rear, or 4x4, the electronics and pointy things are packed as tight as possible.
    • BinaryFragger, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3The good news is rear-drive is making somewhat of a comeback. Chrysler has several rear-drive models (300, Charger and Challenger) and Pontiac has the new G8.
      • nitrojunky24, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1sadly none are very fuel efficient
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0... but are a lot more fun to drive.
        I'm waiting for G8 GXP.
    • rotten777, on 03/31/2008, -2/+1The only advantage you have is the transmission's easy access. The rest is just as screwy. If you haven't worked on a decent FWD setup, I can see how you would think that.
      • rotten777, on 03/31/2008, -2/+1And if you don't believe me, go change a set of spark plugs on a Nissan 300ZX
    • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0I don't where are the weight savings in a FWD.
      Rear wheel drive has better handling, weight distribution, easier to work on, no torque steer.
  • Willravel, on 03/31/2008, -3/+5I call *****. I had to try and replace a bulb on my mom's Jetta, and everything that was in the way could have been moved slightly. It was simply poor engine bay layout that was responsible, not "lighter materials" or some such other nonsense. In compartmentalizing the battery under the hood (instead of moving it to the rear, for example), and not moving the location of the battery back a few inches (inches that were available), they made the task so difficult that a consumer may simply assume that only a dealership could replace the stupid bulb. It's clearly a simple ploy to get weekend warrior type consumers to stop repairing their own cars. It's the same reason that dealerships are starting to insist on doing simple things like oil changes.

    I'll tell you one thing: I know how to repair my car. You'll never catch me paying the dealership to replace a belt or headlight simply because they've made them difficult to get to.
    • singebkdrft, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1On the New Beetle, the headlights are a pain in the ass to replace.

      VW has a weird mechanism for holding and releasing the entire front lamp assemblies. In a perfect world, with no dust, dirt, and road grime; it was be easy to remove, but alas it's the real world... and the mechanism and tracks the lamp is on get crapped up.

      So about an hour latter of struggling and using cleaners and degreasers, you have the lamp out. After changing the bulbs I put lithium grease on the tracks, as I don't want to repeat this dance in a year or two.

      Now that said I also do my oil changes, and other minor repairs, mainly because the stealership has a propensity to ***** up a TDI engine (oops wrong oil, oops don't have your oil filter, oops over-torqued oil filter housing, etc...). For my timing belt/waterpump/repairs that require removing the front clip of a VW, I take it to an independent VW specialty mechanic that knows TDIs well (again the stealership would ***** up here, and charge me too much for the privilege of ***** it up).
      • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0Dude, you admit to driving a New Beetle?
  • paulinsf, on 03/31/2008, -5/+2I believe it. Check out this story of how Circuit City radio installers did $12,000 damage while trying to install a GPS.
    http://consumerist.com/373753/circuit-city-tries-t ...
    • Vodd9, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2Consumerist isn't worth *****.
    • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0Everything is hard for a 18 year old CC "tech".
      Maybe he will learn on his mistakes
  • prleet, on 03/31/2008, -9/+0be like me, change the car every 2 years!!!!!
    • antonio97b, on 03/31/2008, -2/+2Bulbs usually only last around a year. Non HIDs anyway.
      • AndreiOttawa, on 03/31/2008, -1/+2No, they don't. My car is 12 years old. I've owned it for 6 years and only replaced 2 bulbs.
      • prleet, on 03/31/2008, -0/+0the irony is all the lights on my car are HID's, low, high and the fog.
        • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0and all of them 20K ***** types?
          These kits aint worth a damn without a reflector designed for them
  • MajorOutage, on 03/31/2008, -1/+11The horrible truth is, the car companies purposefully use complicated designs to stop people from being comfortable working on their own cars. Profit profit profit.
    • o0joshua0o, on 03/31/2008, -0/+4Exactly. Increase the barriers to entry for the competition (i.e. individual owner), and you can charge more for your own shoddy repair services. It's a perfect scam.
      • conrail, on 04/01/2008, -0/+1And make used cars less and less attractive. Do you think these cars with the rubber band transmissions are going to be worth a damn in 5-6 years?
    • sn8kbordin, on 04/02/2008, -0/+0How much of that labor charge do car manufacturers get? Or the premium on parts?
  • petrodollar, on 03/31/2008, -0/+5What car is lighter and more fuel efficient now than it was ten years ago? All those safety features add weight. And engines are getting much more powerful, which is offsetting efficiency gains. An Accord today gets the same mileage as a 1995 model, it just has 50+ more hp under the hood.
  • john2kx, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Older cars are still very expensive to repair.. I recently had my compressor replaced, along with the brakes and some other parts, and suffice to say, I now have no money. :(
    • antonio97b, on 03/31/2008, -0/+5Changing disk breaks require 2 sockets and a C clamp. Usually.
      • john2kx, on 03/31/2008, -1/+2plus the brake pads themselves, of course.... and the compressor is a 300-500 dollar part, not including labor.
        • antonio97b, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1Brake pads are around 19.99 - 29.99 at autozone. Invest in a cheap socket set and a C clamp and that is all you'll ever have to pay to replace your brakes.
      • ricksite, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2I once had a heck of a time trying to clean the corrosion off of the slider pins on a pair of calipers. I gave up and bought a pair of re-manufactured calipers. They were only $13.
  • Kas70, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1The real solution is what no one will do, stop buying cars will needlessly complicated parts or arrangements. It's a set up as sure as the bank likes to slant things so they make fees, or vaccum companies and printer companies don't improve the product design or efficiency so they make money on bags and cartriges. People should ask for the owner's manual and ask specifics about routine maintenance (headlights, battery changes, oil filters, etc. ) and their degree of difficulty for the average do-it-yourselfer or small time mechanic, BEFORE they buy. If enough cars are left on the lots, things will change. I personally drive an early 90's Buick, and while the gas mileage may not be great, the ease of repair is worth it to me.
  • theuber1337, on 03/31/2008, -1/+31990 Cadillac Deville, 150,000 miles (bought with 135,000), about 4000 dollars to buy and fix. It should run fine for another 50,000 miles without costing me too much. Now thats a finely built American car. When can you say that anymore?
    • AndreiOttawa, on 03/31/2008, -0/+11996 Geo Prizm. Currently have 190,000 miles on it (had 60K when I bought it). Paid $4000 for it 6 years ago. Spent around $1000 on maintenance and never needed any major repairs. Too bad they don't make them any more.
      • sjaskow, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2Uh, they do. They've be rebadged as http://www.toyota.com/corolla/index.html :)
        • AndreiOttawa, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2I agree that Prizm was built by Toyota with mostly Toyota parts. But it's a Prizm, not a Corolla. And I can no longer buy a new Prizm, just a Corolla. So, it was not rabaged. It was discontinued.
  • JustinDevine, on 03/31/2008, -0/+13I would be really, really interested in some kind of list that rated cars on the ability of the owner to do simple maintenance and repairs. Cars that are "easy to work on" Anyone come across anything like that?
    • norcalscan, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2It's called asking to look under the hood before buying your car, and noting the location of fluid fill/drain plugs and filter locations. If they're in ***** locations, buy a different car. It's called research - although this list would be nice to have for that research.
  • wrxpert, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3There are some cars still being made that are easy to work on. I have been able to do any job needed on me and my friends Subaru's. They are very easy and uncomplicated.
    • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2EXACTLY what I was saying below! Screw domestic cars man, they're plastic pieces of crap. It really says something about a manufacturer when they start using plastic intakes that will crack eventually and cost hundreds. I seen customers who are on their third intake with 120k miles!
  • davidrools, on 03/31/2008, -4/+3boo hoo. If you can't take the heat, get out of the garage. Take the time to learn how to do things right or hire a professional. Don't complain that it's too hard to do something just because you expected it to be easier or more like it was 20 years ago.
  • dantelephoneman, on 03/31/2008, -0/+31987 and 1988 BMW 325is. Fast, fun, now cheap, plenty of options. Except for the starter, everything is easy to work on. I said Cheap right. Both Cars cost less than 500 each to buy, I get 25 mpg. BMW FTW
    • Amazetbm, on 04/08/2008, -0/+1I had an `87 325es (eta) that I bought for $500. It had 278,000 on it when I bought it...but the BMW dealer who inspected the car said I got it for a steal. With regular preventive maintenance, it ran until the drive shaft broke at 400,000...the engine still ran strong. I sold it to a guy for $500 who plans to restore and track it.
  • mst3kcrow, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1I had fun yesterday replacing the brake pads on my van. It's 14 years old so one of the calipers did not feel like moving when I tried to compress it. There was also a problem with two of the bolt housings which moved out of place on the caliper. Needless to say, 9 hours later the job was done on my first try. Still wouldn't have paid a shop $250 to replace a $20 part. However, I will have $10k saved up for a car this summer and would be interested to hear if the 2k1+ Honda Civics are easy to maintain.
    • mustang460, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2oil changes can be a pain without a lift, they tend to have problems with rear A-arm bushings, the older(pre 01) models blew headgaskets from time to time, and had valve guide seal issues dunno about 01+ havent seen either problem in them yet. but thats about all you really have to worry about, as far as fuel efficient dependable vehicles go, civics are one of the best choices i drive an older one myself as a DD great cars
  • itsthebrod, on 03/31/2008, -1/+8Will you morons stop thinking this is some global conspiracy by car manufacturers to try and purposely make them more difficult to repair just so repair shops get more money? Do you really think the mechanical engineers designing it are thinking of ways to make their job MORE difficult in order to screw the customer? No. The fact is, cars are the most complex mechanical systems most humans are ever in regular contact with, and as technology and safety concerns progress, so will the complexity. It's a byproduct of having several independent engineering teams working on components that will eventually need to be put together modularly.
    • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3If it were up to the mechanical engineers everything would be easy to work on and we'd get way better gas mileage/reliability....while driving the cost up threefold. You're right though, the person to yell at is the exec who's watching cost.
  • liuite, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3engineers, not just automotive engineers, should be reminded of K.I.S.S. I was beginning to think they want to prevent you from being able to service it yourself. if you build a plane or rocket with such complexity as our automobiles....the more parts there are the more parts can fail...unless the extra parts are for redundancy
  • schmitey, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3This comes from someone who's been in the business for over three years... There are a number of issues here, but IMO the largest is that the public simply doesn't have a mechanical understanding anymore. It used to be that every guy could tune a carburetor and rebuild a lawnmower engine...that's just not the case anymore. In the case of this Chevy headlight people don't have the desire to fix things themselves anymore, and the difficulty of repairs reflects that. I would also say in the case of this headlight to BUY AN IMPORT (Toyota or Honda) and you won't run into this composite panel ***** where you have to disassemble half the car to do a basic task. You'll also notice that American cars have a lot more plastic under the hood (intake manifold etc) that will cost hundreds when (not if!) it cracks down the road.
  • friesen00, on 03/31/2008, -1/+1Buy a Honda. Replacing a headlight bulb takes about 2 minutes, and only that long if you've never done it before. Twist, pull, pop in the new one, twist into place. Easy.
    • mustang460, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1depends on year, i had to replace a bulb in a 99 civic i think ex model? been awhile, but they use a spring loaded screw connection rather than the twist type your talking about. in order to get a screwdriver to fit, you had to pull the headlight, which first requires you to pull the bumper cover, really a pain for just a headlight bulb
  • mustafya, on 03/31/2008, -1/+3Through the years I have worked on many cars. 1966 mustang, 1986 dodge ram charger, 1981 ford pickup, 1997 dodge dakota, 1993 mitsubishi 3000gtvr4. The more modern a car is the more difficult it is to work on it. It isn't just the electronics. It is the fact that there isn't room left in the engine bay (well, electronics is part of that). My 1966 mustang was EASY to work on. Anyone with a handbook could do it. I rebuilt carburetors, changed cams, adjusted timing (with the old school timing light). Etcetc. Nowadays? I helped a buddy put a new engine in his vr4 after he grenaded the old block. That was a complete pita. Why didn't we take it to a mechanic you might ask? None, that's right NONE of the mechanics in our area would work on it and there was no mitsu dealer close by to take it to.
    • mustang460, on 03/31/2008, -0/+1thats why auto techs barely made a living back in the 60's nowadays pay rates of 60K+ aren't uncommon for quality dealer techs
  • RoboDigger, on 03/31/2008, -0/+3"In their quest to make cars safer, lighter & more fuel efficient, car makers are using more exotic materials in the bodies of vehicles."

    Plastic is not an exotic material. doesnt matter the year or car, any dealership sees you as a $ sign and sucker is written on forehead.
  • apache2, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2Carbon FIBER!
  • GNFeed, on 03/31/2008, -1/+1We should all drive safe cars, not paying extra but driving them. At least that's my point of view.
  • nelav, on 03/31/2008, -0/+2Think someone did a piece on how car dealerships generate more revenue out of their in-house repair shop than they do selling their cars.
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